Paganism in Utah
Misperceptions, fear cause many to keep religion secret
By Devin Felix
Deseret Morning News



Tara Sudweeks Willgues, also known as the Rev. Heron, says there are as many types of paganism as there are denominations of Christianity


There are witches among us.
Scott G. Winterton, Deseret Morning NewsTara Sudweeks Willgues, also known as the Rev. Heron, says there are as many types of paganism as there are denominations of Christianity. Witchcraft, also known as Wicca, is one of hundreds of pagan religions followed around the world. And there are hundreds of Utah pagans.

For some the word "pagan" might bring to mind images of prehistoric tribal people in remote village huts. While most pagan traditions are based in the ancient past, most modern pagans present a much more familiar picture. They hold jobs at offices or stores or call centers. They send their children to public schools. They drive cars rather than broomsticks.

Paganism is an umbrella term that describes a wide variety of traditions and practices. There are as many "flavors" of paganism as there are denominations of Christianity, if not more, says Tara Sudweeks Willgues, also known as the Rev. Heron. Wicca, Asatru, Stregheria and Shamanism are all types of paganism, just as Lutheranism, Methodism and Catholicism are denominations of Christianity.

Misperceptions and fear cause many pagans to keep their choice of religion hidden, especially in the workplace, says Maureen Duffy-Boose, founder and president of the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist pagans, a national pagan group.

"Even in our culture in 2007, the normal cultural response is that pagans are weird," Duffy-Boose said. "I know people who have lost their children because of this religion. I know people that have lost jobs. I know one person who was actually evicted from her apartment." (Article Continues)

AAAHHHH......isn't tolerance wonderful? amazing how these people can twist "God's" teaching.

Nice post it was informing I am sad that pagans aren't socially accepted, I like talking to them as is they are really nice people. And honestly, they're not that weird if you look at what we Christians believe. Yes, some may find the idea of the witch next door scary, however, I find it fun and different. A new flavor of ice cream if you will. While it is that it is my taught belief that pagans are not of God, I can still love them and live in harmony with them. I think it'd be cool if more pagans started coming out into the open. I mean honestly, from an objective standpoint Christianity is more to be afraid of than paganism, but oh well, that's society.

I would agree it's a bold move to come out of the broom closet in Mormon country. But at least the few that dare, show the others that may be reticent, that it can be done. And those that object, express hate, outrage, or commit acts of vandalism, show what they have learned from their faith that would compel their moral character to become intolerant and vicious toward another , in service to what they corrupt of that faith, by their evil behavior. So when people think witches are evil, in Utah, those that are intolerant and vicious toward them, show where evil lives, in Utah. And it's not in the wiccans.

If a Mormon was fired form their job because of their religion I am sure they would take it to court and win. We Pagans need to be more forceful and stand up for our rights. We have the same rights to religious freedom as any other religion. I don't care if anyone understands my religion or not I have the same right as they do to worship without fear of loosing my children, my home, or my job. I would think people who had to move clear across the country to practice their faith would understand that concept. There is no place we Pagans can go and build a Pagan city like the Mormons did we have to make our stand where we live.

I never really thought much about it but I guess I lean more toward paganism than christianity. Paganism seams more natural and makes much more sense than any christian religion I have ever heard of.

I live across the street from a pagan store in Salt Lake and they seem to be doing very well, they are always busy. I haven’t heard any complaints from them. The owners were at my house on the 4th so I'm sure they would have said something.

Court Decisions Religious Freedoms


Some Brief Points For Modern Pagans

Pagans have the same right to a legal redress of grievance for religious discrimination, as does any other member of any other faith, so violated.




Defining Religion in American Law

II. Evolution of Supreme Court Efforts to Define Religion.
The Supreme Court made its first effort to define religion in 1890, ignoring Jefferson's universalistic approach in favor of the traditional theistic approach. In Davis v. Beason, the Court stated: "The term ‘religion’ has reference to one's views of his relations to his Creator, and to the obligations they impose of reverence for his being and character, and of obedience to his will." This theistic notion of religion was dominant until the 1940's, when the Supreme Court, in a series of decisions, changed direction in regard to both the belief/action distinction and the theistic definition of religion. In United States v. Ballard, Justice Douglas, writing for the majority, embraced a much broader definition of religion:

Freedom of religious belief, is basic in a society of free men. It embraces the right to maintain theories of life and of death and the hereafter which are rank heresy to followers of orthodox faiths . . . . Men may believe what they cannot prove. They may not be put to the proof of their religious doctrines of beliefs. Religious experiences which are as real as life to some may be incomprehensible to others. Yet the fact they may be beyond the ken of mortals does not mean that they can be made suspect before the law.

As Judge Hand had asserted, religion need not be bound by reason and logic. In Everson v. Board of Education, the principles of voluntarism, essentially the notion that belief should be free and not coerced, and separatism, the belief that religion and government should not involve themselves in the other’s activities, were developed. These two purposes find expression in the contemporary understanding of the two religion clauses of the Constitution: the free exercise clause and the establishment clause.

In Torcaso v. Watkins, the Court broke the theistic mold which had theretofore restricted the American legal definition of religion. According to the Court, the first amendment precluded government from aiding "those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs." The Court noted that "[a]mong religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." This expanded position reflected a recognition of the great diversity of religious beliefs in modern America.

Thanks Goddess, great post!

Yes, i'm sure if someone went to court with a strong case in Utah, they could win.

Heck, my faith rejects the notion of swearing an oath in court (or any oath for that matter)... by law, I don't have to. Two presidents of this country never swore an Oath of Office based on our belief that you should swear no oaths except your personal oath to God.

Technically, my faith says I don't have to take my baseball hat off during the National Anthem at the ball park either... but I do, mostly cuz I don't want to get smacked in the back of the head by the guy behind me. Basically the argument is that we do not remove our hats or bow or scrape in front of anyone. It sends a message that the scraper is less than. But, if I met the Queen of England, I would probably adhear to protocol and curtsie or whatever you do. In fact, I know I would. But swearing an oath is not something I'd do.

You can win just about anything in court as long as your case is strong enough, just like everyone else in this country.

Darkwind,
These links may further assist in pagan religious liberties, activism, etc...

Religious Liberties LAW

Home: The Pagan Institute

Also, a key word search on Google, "Pagan Religious Lawsuits", provides a number of hits. More so, I found, than on Yahoo.

Women don't have to remove their hats during the National Anthem, indoors, and passing funerals. If you get smacked on the back of the head smack em back.
I would not bow before the Queen because I am not a citizen of Great Britain, I am an American. I don't bow I shake hands. Don't like it too bad.

GW, thanks again. I have some of those links. There was a Pagan rally July 4th in front of the white house. I am looking for an article about it and how it went. If I find one I'll post it.

You're welcome.

I know there was a Pentacle dedication ceremony at Arlington Cemetery on July 4th (Article)

Yes there was it was for a woman who had been part of the Pagan community in the town north of here. She had been married to a Christian man who was a Vet buried in Arlington. She wanted to be buried next to him. She was killed by her own brother who who had mental problems. Very very sad. I never got to meet her but many of my friends had.

Hay! We share the same last name! (er.. part anyways.. why people do that double hypehn name *coughs*hillery*coughs* is beyond me)

But yeah.. we do have to fight for our own rights... and I'm glad to see more and more people being vocal about their pagan faiths.

I think the stigma that attached itself to pagans is what continues to make it a fight to be respected or at least accepted, as one's entitled to equal rights and freedom of religion. To this day there are people that believe, no matter what one says to the contrary, that wiccans worship the devil. What would be a great help, I think, is if mainstream religious leaders dawned the cloak of tolerance and morality and helped to educate the masses in their care, to the truth of the matter. Rather than perpetuate the lies and as such cleave a local community in two, by continuing the misinformation. But then again, many ministers see other religions as competition for souls and as such they do not tolerate them for that reason. So the lies that are associated with paganism, wicca, etc... serve to keep the church in business, as many ministers like to say it's a matter of fighting the "devil" and those vehicles of his temptation. Like Wicca, paganism, druidism, etc...
So , in effect, it does not behoove certain prejudice religious leaders to impart the truth to the parishioners that trust them. Rather, perpetuating the lies, keeps them in the business of saving souls from what they intend their people to fear about their fellow human beings. But what's truly tragic, is there is no logic in perpetuating the lies, except to keep a divisive atmosphere alive in the world community. And that's what is truly the sin, in institutionalized mainstream deceptions that insist , no matter what, that pagans worship the devil. When really, it can be observed, christians honor the devil. While pagans don't and never have believed such a godly antithesis creature exists.

I don't like it when people take at face value what other people say. So this guys knows someone that lost their child because they were pagan?

That's doesn't sound very likely to me. I'm sure there was more to the story than that.


I don't know how I feel about Paganism. I think honestly that its a silly religion, no offence to people who are Pagans on here. It just always seems like a "invent your own religion" to the max, which is of course what ALL religions are like.

I don't know, something about Paganism strikes me as something childish.


If anyone would like to share Pagans that don't have these kind of rituals and stuff please share. The image I get of Pagans are like the ones shown in the article, wearing dramatic costumes and doing ritual.

I feel the same way about any religion that does that btw. Just seems like playing a game.

Sir, one would wonder how open you would be to learning about Paganism. Since you've already posted an article that relates a biased opinion, that you reiterate here, about the topic. Certainly, if you were interested in learning what paganism is, rather than exploiting what it is said to be by those that have a vested interest in defaming the practice, you are intelligent enough to seek and find of your own accord. But as it is, claiming it's childish, silly, etc... while at the same time admitting you don't know what paganism is, doesn't sound like you wish to be made aware that you are wrong. Regardless, of how people have attempted to educate you in the past.

Pagans are part of the Problem

Actually GW is called laziness on my part and lack of interest. And I'm not a "sir" I'm a gal. I don't know why it keeps saying male since I chose no option for gender but alas.


It truly is my lack of interest in Paganism. It doesn't ring true to me. I think that is why people tend to post so much about Christianity on this site because there is something to Christianity that does ring true.

What's interesting though, is that Paganism does have a lot of ritual which is what was blended into the Catholic church, so a lot of the things that seem hypocritical in the Church in my opinion, are things that are actually PAGAN in origin.

For example worshipping at the feet of statues. Modern Christian Churches don't do this. Biblically it was considered wrong. Yet people consider it idolizing but its actually just a left over tradition from PAGAN ritual.

I think one of the big problems in discussing religion is that people fail to separate how important TRADITION is to people. So regardless of the belief system the traditions of the religion which some people don't want to give up because it becomes part of their individual culture and identity. This is why we have Jews for Jesus. They don't want to give up the traditions of Judaeism just because they have accepted Christ.

Pagans and other such religions that seem to be heavy on tradition or ritual, and light on an actual belief system come across to me as religions that take joy in the actual "rituals" or "traditions"

The traditions are what bonds them more than the beliefs themselves.


ETA That's what I meant by it seems childish and silly. It comes across as play acting to me.

TT, why don't you go to a local Pagan ritual and see for yourself. Lughnasa is coming in August I am sure you can find a ritual open to the public.
http://www.witchvox.com/
Witchvox is a great site for finding local rituals in your area.

We do dress in ritual clothing, depending on what form of Pagan tradition is followed. Sometimes it looks a little strange, but then some Christian and Muslim clergy look mighty strange to. Look at the Pope I don't think his vestments would put him on the worlds best dressed list.
Just be glad the Pagans pictured were wearing cloths, not all do. Despite the clothing Pagans take their beliefs very seriously.

Thanks Darkwind, and thanks for understanding what I mean.

I might check that out!

As I said, other religions that are heavy on traditional garb and routine turn me off as well.

I can imagine it would be a bit of a shock to log in and find the server had given you a sex change overnight. It's a simple matter of editing the gender, I'd think. Else newbies on forum will think you to be a man and may address you as such.


Actually, if you watch particularly the catholic rituals, it represents what is known as "magical thinking". Which is what was at work in the prior pagan rituals. All part and parcel of polytheism (many gods/esses) and animism. (The belief that all things contain "soul")

So, in christian rituals, when the hail Mary's and our father's ensue, it's the magical thinking process that is actually assumed to create a bond between the energies of god , Mary, etc.. and the believer. A connection as it were, so that those beings hear the prayers, the supplications, etc.. of the penitent, the faithful.
In pagan rituals, it was much the same. There are cave paintings that have been discovered dating back as far as both the Paleolithic and Neolithic period that depict sympathetic magic rites, being performed before a hunt. A hunter would dress in the hide of a bison, for instance, and the other hunters would mimic the hunt, and of course the success of killing the bison they sought. This sympathetic channeling of success for the real hunt empowered the tribe as they set out with the assurance they would achieve success in hunting the real thing.

So much of what is invested in mainstream religious rituals today, have their roots in yesteryear. And the primitive associations between the gods and the spirit of the people. The play acting, as you describe in christian ritual, is born from the earlier pagan practices. As are the god and goddess. In the forms of god, jesus, the holy ghost and the blessed virgin.


edit to add link

That's all my Pagans are Part of the Problem was stating, the part that I bolded. So my other thread was not an attack on Paganism but just the same observation.


All of the things you mention are what I mean about how Paganism comes across to me. I don't mean this to put down the beliefs so please don't take it that way.

I just mean that to ME as to what would appeal to me, doing ritual is very very unappealing. Its why when I was Catholic I never liked the whole Eucharist thing.

But I have a lot of fun friends that do practice Pagan ritual (I don't know them that well) but it seems like a mix of taking our mind back to the earliest part of our existence through meditation and then realizing the wholeness of that is eternal and then sort of bringing it back to the NOW.

As I said, I don't have the energy to sustain that kind of thinking.

If I may make an observation, with all due respect, you seem to have investigated or invested yourself in a number of faithful practices. If I recall correctly, from the posts I've read of you in the past, you have been a muslim, a catholic, a deist and are now an Atheist. What other philosophies did you invest yourself in , other than those. And what made you move from one practice to the next?!

Your welcome.



Most Pagan groups, especially Wiccan covens, you must spend a year and a day studying the belief system. You are tested, have to write papers, do a ritual, practice magic, etc. It is the belief system that dictates the Ritual not the other way around.

True. Perhaps you could start a thread, to help with the insight, the education, about paganism and pagan ritual. Maybe something that includes the relativism of animism, magical thinking, etc...?! Nothing helps to dispel ignorance or misconceptions perpetuated by mainstream religions that slander paganism, like the truth from the pagan practitioners themselves.

I was raised as a Catholic, we changed to a Orthodox church for a while simply because it was closer and also because I pissed off the Priest in our old church because I told him that Noahs Ark was just like the mythology I was studying at school in 7th grade (I thought he'd commend my brilliant comparison>>> NOT) then I became a Jehovah's Witness for few seconds,

My mother went off the deep end and started dabbling in Wicca,(not saying Wicca is a result of that or anything)

she told neighborhood kids that she was a witch and since we lived next to the Elementary school she actually got a phone call from the principal. She moved on to Buddhism and had an hodge podge altar in our attic mixed with all sorts of Wiccan and Buddhist stuff. She'd lead us in Nam Yoho Renge Keyo! Chanting.

My mother actually backpacked through Europe one summer using her tarot card reading to barter for food and drink.

I myself used to sell "Spell Baskets" in the local hair salons for a while.

Then I converted to Islam in my first marriage. I tossed that for Deism (or what I thought was Deism according to some people on here I don't think I really got it right) then I moved to Agnosticism.

I joined the Universist group for a while. But they were too angry and unorganized. So then I went back to Agnosticism for a while.

But then I got tired of people telling me "Oh so you DO believe in some God" so I started saying I was atheist to shut the door if that makes sense.

Then I joined the Brights.

Theology is part of my major in Grad School right now. I actually wrote a thesis for one class where I dissected Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and posited my own version of God Theory. I am a big fan of Joseph Campbell.

Theology is of great interest to me. I want to know why from an evolutionary stand point ours is a creature with so many God theories. I also took a few Judaic Studies courses in my undergrad degree, one called the Holocaust and the Hallaka (sp?) was very interesting.

I guess Paganism seems to be something that is just along that line with a lot more older traditions. So to me it seems like a revival of older stuff, like the Druids etc.

I have actually had a personal experience recently that has led me back to Christianity. Thanks to UM no less.

But based on the actions of a lot of Christians around me I am rethinking that as well.

I think I am just a flowing person along God theories.

And because I am so scattered in my own beliefs I tend to have a lot of respect for those who have strong convictions.

ETA

While I admire personal strong convictions about ones own beliefs I do not respect those who insist on condemning others for their own choice simply because it doesn't match what one has chosen for themselves.

For example Christians who state everyone who isn't Christian are in denial of God or Non believers who suggest that Christians are stupid fools bowing to idiotic constructs etc etc.

I suggest we try to learn from others why they are so certain that their belief is true for them.

Hope that makes sense.

WOW a tad b*tchy

Sounds to me that true takes a keen intrest in different faiths...its the only way she will ever come to any understanding, is to learn more about them

She admits there is no God for her...but understands other faiths...I myself have already begun to read up on Pagan / wiccan beliefs...I find them intresting...if I want to partisapate in threads about pagans, the only way i can do this, is to learn more about them..otherwise dont wast my time or anyone elses by posting in the thread

GW maybe if you dabbled into other faiths yourself, you might understand a lot more...I don't see the harm in it

I used to be forever against christianity...untill I took a keen intrest, and now i try to come accross more understanding than i was this time last year

You've made a wonderful transformation in that BM. Kudos for you. More people should follow that example.

Thanks chick

Well its all thanks to IAMS and Heather..they opened my eyes...held a mirror up in my face and then I didn't like what i saw....................(thats me 1st thing in the morning too lol)

I found my mind grow stronger and more open

I was ignorant to believe back then, i already had a strong mind...<----------SO WRONG..and not to forget BLINEDED by my own ignorance

I think a lot are too afraid that if they were to take up an intrest in christianity instead of putting it down all the time, and going on a hunt for articals on web sites that mock and put it down...then maybe, there is a chance, they might find themselves in my shoes, and becaome more understanding (hmm would make a good thread )....it means you are more understanding but also means you remain who you are IE - atheist...you can remain an atheist, but still hold respect for a faith


PLZ note the above is not aimed at anyone in Particular

a few serious things about Paganism:

Religion is a huge force in shaping people's daily behavior. It encourages people to behave in society's best interests. The "world take" of the Christian religion, for example, is out-dated and they refuse to update it. Two thousand years ago, for example, it was essential to keep the population up. The Abrahamic religions promoted this by insisting that God wants everyone to reproduce as much as possible. Now it's more important for people to control their family sizes so that each child can get a good education, etc. Since it's impossible to convince the church that maybe a starving 3rd world mother with a family of ten shouldn't have yet another kid, it's better to start from scratch with a new religious movement.

Ecology should be a major issue for us now. There are days when radio announcements warn us about letting our kids play outside because the air quality is so bad. We need a collective social movement that makes people feel REALLY BAD about polluting and supporting organizations that pollute. Since Paganism is "earth centered" it is the obvious choice for changing social consciousness.

The Abrahamic religions are incredibly sexist. This quality probably sprung out of some practical bronze age realities like (1) physical strength was important in the ancient world and women have poorer upper body strength (2) as I mentioned above, the population was very low, infant mortality was high, and it was necessary for people to produce huge families if the culture was to survive (3) it made sense to have the women stay at home to tend the children, since they were usually pregnant or nursing anyway. Their life expectancy was so short that most of them never lived long enough to have menopause.

Now-a-days, strength is not that important in the world. The population is large and having a huge family isn't necessary. Women can control their pregnancies and have better medical care, so reproduction doesn't effect their proficiency in the workplace. Also, most women live for decades after their child-bearing years. It's time for religion to accept women as equal members of society. Christianity is so wedded to the idea that women belong in the home that it will never change. Think about the endless messages we get at Christmas... God so loved the world that he sacrificed his SON. His SON. Not just a daughter, but a SON.

Paganism, which celebrates the sacred female as well as the sacred male, is able to create a definition for religious modern women who travel, have serious educations, work, etc.

The laws of Europe are so integrated with Christianity that it is hard to separate law from religion. Paganism provides a wedge for making this separation. For example, in [I think] Denmark, Christianity was defined as The State Religion. Neo-pagans challenged this and won. Part of the decision read, "we can't very well negate the religion which is indigenous to our own country".

Well see this is what I mean. What you have stated seems like a reaction to Christianity. Not a belief in and of itself.

Its also picking and choosing what you want to focus on. Jesus was a SON but he was given to a WOMAN to bring forth and a whole heck of a lot of attention was focused on that in this way.

In addition I never got the impression in Christianity that they emphasized the women staying at home, not in the way that Jews or Muslims do.

Women pray right next to men in a church. But in the Mosque the women have to pray in the back or in a different room. And I believe its the same in temple if I am not mistaken.

I would like to see what Paganism means to you. Worshipping the earth seems a little unnecessary in order to take care of the earth. You don't need to be Pagan to be an environmentalist. In fact some of the most concerned with the environment are Christians.


http://www.adherents.com/people/pg/Al_Gore.html

Interesting that you think the solution to the out-datedness of Christianity is to go with a belief based in a structure older than Christianity.



So you think you can win over the world to Earth-consciousness by using guilt? Sorry I don't get with that idea. Guilt and scare tactics (environmental catastrophe is the 21st century's version of nuclear holocaust) are not going to change people's minds. Knowledge, not guilt, is power.

I remember one summer day in the 90's, I went down to DC with some friends. One of the people in my group being an old school hippie was chatting with the lady manning the no-nuke protest booth (another old school hippie). No-nuke lady had to hit the bathroom so I got volunteered to man the booth while she was gone. A group of schoolkids came by and were looking at the pictures. One asked me, "What's this?" Rather than going into the politically motivated schpeil that was normally given out (I didn't know what it was anyway); I just stated the simple truth, "This is what a nuclear weapon does to you." Nothing more. You could see that it sunk in, they looked at the photos for a couple of minutes and started to go on their way. The one kid looked back at me and said, "Nukes suck!"
"Yep."

That's all it takes.

You have to be careful. While you appear to be passionate about your beliefs, by claiming them to be superior to any other for whatever reason you run the risk of becoming a wacko-fundie in a different hat.

I'd say you're seeing bitc%y where none was intended. It's unfortunate you chose to miss the statement, "with all due respect" that I offered when asking True of her faith history.
If you'd have read about the way we raise our children, you would also know the answer to your other statement. I have researched other faiths. I do not "dabble" in them, i.e. become a believer. But I do read of them.

Siara, a part of Paganism is to be tolerant of other religions. Each person must seek their own path. Paganism has its good points and its bad points like any other religion.

Remember different Pagan faiths are much more diverse than the differences between Christian faiths. If the Pagan faiths were to become the dominate religion of the world I am not sure it would make the world a better place. All I want is to be able to worship my Gods with my fellows in peace without worrying about loosing my job, my kids, my home, or being harassed.

GW I think why it came across the way it did is because its really off topic and quite personal to ask me this.


And I think we all know what the words "With all due respect" mean. Here in Brooklyn it means "I think you're a friggin moron but don't want to get in trouble for saying so, so let me pop this disclaimer on the top so you can't nail me on it"


Or something to that effect.


No offense taken though.

Well, I didn't realize it was quite personal to ask, given you've offered that you were a believer in many things in the past. So I thought to inquire as to the other paths you may have walked. I would also offer that , with respect to how it may have come across to BM that, if indeed it was taken to be quite a personal inquiry by her, that it is intriguing she later posts a thread asking pretty much the same thing of members here. Which, as you well know , yourself and anyone else, could always politely refuse the inquiry. I just thought it interesting, given you've shared that you've had a number of experiences in different faiths thus far. Islam, deism, atheism, etc... So I was curious about a complete list. I appreciate that you did not take offense. I assure you none was intended.

Also, I appreciate your insight about how "with all due respect" is perceived, in some areas. I had no idea, quite frankly that it was construed as anything but an offering of respect, as one inquired of something personal or offered a personal observation of a thing. Seriously "I think you're a friggin moron...." being attributed to the statement, is new to me. I have never heard it was a phrase intended to imply anything other than respect. And as I said, I appreciate your not taking offense and sharing your thoughts on my inquiry of your faith background. I did indeed mean the question with respect and I thank you for not taking it the other way.


Edit to add. Ok, so I looked up the phrase "With all due respect", because I thought, have I been implying insult to people all this time!? Turns out it can be taken as intended: Link

I guess it's a matter of where you are. As I've never heard it construed as an insult. But thanks for your insight True.

I only call em how I see them...how they come accross

Researching is what I call dabbling in them...its exactly what I mean when I say dabble in them...means to learn more about them...take a keen intrest...........dabble does NOT mean to put them in to practice lol well at least not were i am from it dont...

And with all due respect, i haven't seen many on here look as though they dabble in anything else other than what is negative <---calling it how I see it and make note of the word MANY

I have no problem with Christianity's age... in fact I respect it. My problem is that all religions have, in addition to their spiritual component a social component that helps society function smoothly. Christianity's social functions don't help in the modern world.


"Knowledge, not guilt, is power." That sounds very noble and right. The thing is that most people in the world are so busy just trying to make ends meet that they don't have time to read and analyse piles of raw data. They want a reliable authority to do this work for them. This has always been one of the functions of religion and there's nothing wrong with it, as long as each individual doesn't lose sight of the fact that "the authorities" get corrupt real easily and need regular evaluation.

When you tell a busy person about global warming, for example, it MUST get reduced to a sound byte, because people get their news on the radio while they drive to work. So, given the fact that the demands of everyday life don't allow these people to ponder the intricate facts, it's going to come out as an article of belief one way or the other.

I think the world needs a religion that doesn't contradict science. A religion that is in touch with reality. A religion that doesn't threaten people with hell when they question the authorities.

Of course, the main functions of religion are spiritual [I'll talk about that in a different post], but I think the way the Abrahamic religions drop the ball when it comes to social issues is a valid reason to look elsewhere for a moral authority (BTW- it's not the teachings of the prophets that bothers me, it's the political structure that has evolved around those teachings).

Excuse me for approaching this issue by dissing another religion, but my dissatisfaction with my childhood religious experience is one of the things that pointed me towards Neo-paganism, so it's part of my answer to the question "Why am I a Pagan"?

I realize that other opinions are just as valid as mine, but this is what works for me...

Thank you for the reminder, Darkwind. Truethat wants to hear how a serious person could end up being a Pagan. I'm not sure I'd qualify as "serious" I can't offer anything more honest than the realities of my personal experience. I was raised in an extremely Christian context. The confusion and the pain that I experienced when I realized that I felt differently from my community was a big factor in the path of my spirituality.

I fully admit that I'm not exactly a spiritual wizard and my opinion.s not worth more than other opinions.

Regarding the spirituality of Paganism...

The common take in Christianity (using the religion I was raised in as an example) is that the spiritual world is divided from the physical world. There's also a tradition that the physical world is shallow and deceptive. An alternative that tempts us away from the more profound beauty of god. There's a very basic level on which I don't believe this. I think the physical world and the spiritual world are two manifestations of the same thing.

**** more later... I've got to whip up a dinner...........

Well, how you see 'em , doesn't necessarily mean that's how they were intended. And when you call 'em and attempt to imply they're seen as inflammatory, you are wrong! And that's just how it is.

As for your observation about delving into what is negative, perhaps it's where you come from, when you read others offerings in this forum. After all, when one is confrontational by nature, they shall tend to see conflict, everywhere they look. Calling it like I see it, is saying no one is responsible for living up to your expectations. You can see it as you wish, but how one intended it , when it is the opposite of how you see it, is what matters. So you can live with your need for conflict, alone my dear.

I do call it how I see it...and there is nothing here on this forum that states I CANT

ANd you are SOOOOOOOOOO wrong when you say ---> when one is confrontational by nature, they shall tend to see conflict, everywhere they look. <--no GW thats just you...cuz see you have had ONE lil arguement with me and all of a sudden you think im on your case....I dont work that way....just because i was forever agreeing with you on nearly every post you made..and all of a sudden I slammed on the brakes and disagreed with you...you accuse me of all sorts tonight...lol you need to relax a lil more...I call it how I see it..and since you have said the same thing..then bravo..way to go GW

One thing you need to learn about BM....I will be straight down the middle with you or anyone...I will agree with some and disagree with others...I dont take sides....I call it how i see it

and you stressing over it is doing you the world of good

I think all of us continue on our spiritual paths because we have been hurt by the inns that we stopped along on our journey.

Your opinion means a lot to me as does everyone's on this site for the most part. Its why I am here. Thank you for sharing.


GW

I do understand that "With all due respect" is SUPPOSED to be a respectful comment, but it is quite often used with sarcasm intended.

I didn't think you meant it sarcastically though.


As for my path I do not think I am alone in my way of exploring other religions. Most people I know have had similar experiences with the exception of Islam and the JWs.

I actually considered visiting a Scientology center and posted about it on here as well. When theology is of interest to you its not just about spirituality any more.



GW here's an example of what I mean




http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQ...52/ai_n16547865


and here







http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=569491

I understand, I see people who come to Paganism from strict Christian back grounds. I know a women who is 35 and has yet to tell her fundi Mother she is a Pagan and she has been one for about 15 years. I was told at my last MS meeting not talk about my religion, because it might upset the JW's in the group. I guess it is ok for them to talk about their's but mine is a no no. My answer was I live my religion everyday and if it bothers anyone, oh well, seem to be their problem not mine.




I agree that statement. Whats for dinner by the way? LOL

Firstly you are mistaken to think I stress over anything in these forums. I type it out, commit to post, and it's over.

And you can certainly call it as you see it, but in turn you must be ready for others to call back. And while you are free to say what you wish, you are mistaken that there is nothing here on this forum that states you cant. The rules of posting, affirm as much. Rules that have recently been amended, because some thought it was appropriate to call for war against non-believers on this forum. You see, calling it like you see it is one thing, calling to incite conflict, is quite another. Which goes to show, there are things on this board, that state quite clearly what you can and can not say. Besides, common decency should already instill that sense, long before forum rules impart a sense of discretion, in print.

But seriously GW, its only when I had that one disagreement with you,...you begin to see my questions as snidey....yet never did in the past...any wonder I felt you were stressing over it..and you did go on about it...even when true says she feels that you may not have meant it that way....

but anyhoo...meh!!

As I said. It's over. Let's you and I move on and prove it, shall we?!

lol ok then...ye twisted my arm ...but please, next time, if i do disagree with some posted from yourself...please dont think its just snidey...its really just me being ME LOL I disagree with a lot of people and agree with them...

Gosh durn it ladies


All of us? What are we doing here? GW you know you are such a valued member of this site because no matter what YOU INSIST WE THINK

and that is so valuable

And BM is just a light of grace to me.


Are we really going to waste any more time denying the powerful women we see in front of us all?

The spirit of the Goddess in this Pagan thread DEMANDS that we just let it go and recognize the fire and spirit we see in the women in front of us.

Good, Bad, b****y dammit ladies I just love you all to the core



love
true

Now lets get on with some learning shall we! We know we are powerful women, lets not drown it in the need to win.

I commend you all!!!!

Aww I feel so special . I've just been commended by someone that had a sex change in a forum, all thanks to a server getting frisky! That had to hurt. Lovely words, thank you.