Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry. Because a knowledge of God is supposed to transcend the conceptual, residing instead within people's emotional understanding, the theological concept of idolaty is related to the psychological concept of attachment. Some ideas among Christian theologians see the absolutization of an idea as idolatrous.[1] Therefore, undue focus on particular features of Christianity to the exclusion of others would consititute idolatry.

Some Christians, who may venerate icons, still use the term "idol" to describe any non-Christian three-dimensional representative cult image, with the consistent exception of Greek and Roman sculpture. The Christian view toward what is considered idolatry, and what constitutes an idol, is largely inherited from monotheist Judaism; Islam adopted a similar view as well, albeit with differences. But Christianity brought what is considered a more relaxed view on matters of law than a strict interpretation of Hebrew scripture dictated. This is seen by Christians not as a deviation from Jewish traditions, but a deeper understanding of the law in the context of human life and a "personal relationship" with God. Thus, in the Christian view, the idol and its worship are not so much the cause of sin, as it is a symptom of a deeper deviation from God; one which can 'be reconciled through Christ,' or after which man 'can be redeemed by the Holy Spirit.'

Paul of Tarsus would later interpret Jesus' teachings in a culturally inclusive way; one that tends to somewhat overlook the stereotypical earmarks of "idolatry," and defines Christianity as a universalist religion. This led also to the proselytizing and missionary (or conversion) aspect of Christianity, which could often cause a hostile relationship with pagan religions, rather than inclusive one. Christian proselytism would also at times have anti-Judaist aims for converting Jews, under the claim that the apparent Jewish exclusion of salvation, among other things, made a reverence for the written law a kind of idolatry. Islam and Christianity would also quarrel with each other but on a much larger scale, due to their mutual universalism and (often hostile) designs on conversion.

However, non-Christians tend to see Christian worship of the crucifix or images of Christ or the Virgin Mary as idolatory. Though, Christian theologist have defended these practices as a form of worship of God, they have refuted any such claims by other religions that practice idol worship. This is seen by some as an inconsistancy of reason. (Continues)

to me in the word "Idolatry" there is an implication of "laziness", although I can't for the life of my remember why... looked it up at dictionary.com and there's no mention of a laziness concept tied to the word Idolatry.
So my only conclusion is dictionary.com doesn't have good definitions. There's an element of intellectual sloth in idolatry that should be part of the definition, at least a #2 or #3 definition.
Maybe my old unabridged dictionary at home has it.
"Idle Worship"

Anyway, even tho for me the crucifix is a negative symbol that can easily become an idol, I can't judge others use of it.

IMO, if your going to worship God you don't need some tree or a dead lady to do so. It is idolatry to worship the cross and/or mary...this is why I don't see many Catholics as "Christian".

I know you aren't one of them COI, but I have noticed that quite a few Christians seem to have made an idol out of the bible!

YES! I know, they are terrible. I talk to them and they speak about this book like it's God himself. I ask them "What about God?" and they reply "All that's necessary is the Bible." *sighs* It's worse than debating an Atheist because at least an Atheist knows what their talking about. Maybe if they actually read the Bible they'd realize that the position in which they hold it is too high.

**sigh** Yeah, I have had the same problem...I would rather debate you, Something like laughter, Irish, PA, Hairston69 and (sorry if I slighted any of my Christian friends) others than take on a inerrant bible worshipper any day, as you said - at least you guys know what you are talking about and can sometimes see my point of view, just as sometimes I can see your! Go figger as old CD says...

TeeHee, Atheist FTW!

FTW?

They were the earliest of christians...they follow christ...end of story...and if you believe in crappy propaganda about idols, then you havent learnt nothing

I was raised catholic, and taught to follow only Jesus.... Mary was no idol, she was just the mother of YOUR SAVIOUR..she brought him into the world...and its no big deal the catholics say one prayer to her to ask her to speak to jesus for them and give her respect...I dont see the harm in it...its the mother of Jesus..why not follow her too ?? Jesus loved her more tan anything BUT catholics rank Jesus as God as the ONE AND ONLY GOD....and the cross was there to remind catholics that Jesus DIED for our sins ...again not an idol
the reason WHY catholics were accused of worshiping idols...is from bitter protestands..who once came from the catholic faith...heck ALL christians came from the catholic faith


Hence the term - pro-test-ants <---there wouldnt BE any..if it wernt for the catholic faith

No they weren't. The earliest Christians were the apostles and they were nothing like the Catholics. There was no pope, no vatican, no ruling body over the church.


I have yet to meet a Catholic who does not believe that Mary is the "Queen of Heaven"/"Holy Mother of God"/"Blessed Lady". They hail her like she's a diety, and they pray to her. Like I said, I have yet to meet one that doesn't do this, and I know PLENTY of Catholics.

Peter and paul were the appostles and now saints of the catholic church..YES do some research the earliest christian (when the name 1st came around and the 1st ever christian church and bible all came from catholics...

then came christianity...everyone knows that..only those bitter protestans will argue

You happen to be speaking to someone that was raised one for a long long time and knows quite a lot about the catholic faith,,,a lot more than you do for a start...and I attended a catholic school ran by nuns...I think I KNOW fine well what Mary was called...best known as the Mother Of our Lord, Jesus Christ...who was prayed to, to reach Jesus...NOT seen as a GOD...big difference

If you take your ignorance away, you would go to a REAL catholic site and research it, before you shoot off about it

I have 2 uncles who are preists on my moms side...and I have learnt a lot from them too...

Peter and Paul were apostles, but there was no papacy involved. And no government type ruling body over the church. I don't care what Catholics call the apostles as much as I don't care what they call Mary. The earliest Christians were followers of the Way, that's what the apostles and the early church called themselves. Then in Antioch the term Christian was used. Catholic didn't come around till about the early 1000's Christian was used long before Catholic was thought of.




She doesn't have to be seen as God to be an idol. Praying to her implies that she can hear you, but she can't, she's dead and there is no Biblical support for praying to her. Praying to her to reach Christ puts her in a deified position just like saying the Bible is the "Word of God" puts the Bible in a deified position.

Idolatry: the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God

Worship: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power


To pray to her is to revere her in a way that says she is above mankind in that she can answer prayers after death. That is idolatry.

I agree and must interject that the earliest Aramaic scrolls that consisted of the the books in the NT dates to about 431 A.D. which predated the Roman Catholic church by a long shot.

Ughh ohh... Ya FTW.. Free The Women?

FTW= For The Win

To educate you a lil more on christian history


As described in the "History of the Christian Church" menu, three important beliefs about Christian origins by the Roman Catholic church are:

Jesus assigned to Peter the responsibility of establishing the Christian church. Peter traveled to Rome where he was the first pope. At his death, his work was continued by a continuous succession of popes. The 1st century CE popes were: St. Peter (30 to 67 CE, approximately)
Linus ( 67 to 76)
Cletus (76 to 88)
Clement of Rome (88 to 97)
St. Evaristus (97 to 105) 1

Read more --> http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hirc.htm


Would you Adam & Eve it??? more proof of catholics being the earliest of christians....

Paul wrote epistles to the Corinthians.
c. 55 Peter traveled to Rome where his leadership over the church of Rome established the tradition of the papacy. He has come to be regarded as the first bishop of Rome (pope).

Learn more --> http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/chri...ron_xian_nt.htm

Then come back AFTER you have did some REAL reading

BTW There is no harm in praying to the mother of christ...no different in holding a bible and worshiping that

There is harm in praying to the mother of Christ just as there is harm in worshipping the Bible. It's NOT a Christian concept and to do such is idolatry.

If you are only going to sit there and judge without trying to educate yourself in the HISTORY of christianity and how it all began...then dont sit and try and debate with me, cuz you are wasting my time

In your opinion there is harm but for millions and millions and millions of others there is NO HARM...catholics dominate christianty as we know it....so whats your opinion when compared to billion of others??

Christianity itself carries a heavy risk of idolatry. If it is not true that Jesus is God, and you worship him, then that's idolatry. That's why I could never accept "Pascal's wager" as it is usually stated by Christians. It's not true that there is nothing to lose if worshiping Jesus turns out to be incorrect.

In the 20th century, some thinkers advanced the idea that theism is inherently idolatrous. According to these philosophers (e.g., Paul Tillich), to worship a God that exists is to worship a manmade construct. In this view, God does not exist. Rather, God is existence, or Being.

Many people will think you're crazy if you talk about non-theistic theologians, but they exist and have exerted a lot of influence on the field in the last century.

Added: To merely pray to a lesser entity than the true God is not idolatry, AFAIK.

You are assuming I don't know Christian history. I don't need the Catholics propaganda when I know they weren't the first Christians.



Nothing, but if my opinion is alligned with God's than I don't care about the billions. Idolatry is Idolatry and to do such isn't a Christian concept. It's idolatry like that which pollutes Christianity. Do you understand the magnitude of good that could be done for the world if Christianity would break free from it's "Bible is the infallible inerrant word of God"? Do you know how much harm has been done because of that simple idolatry? I have met people harmed by such idolatry and to say it is not there is foolish.

You obviously didnt read anyhting i posted from other sites, no intention of educating yourself...Peter the 1st one to create a catholic church in rome...was 1st pope..and you fail to understand this


you are well on your own you've wasted enough of my time on this

Actually, it kind of depends on where you are.

In Mexico and other Latin American countries, Mary is almost solely worshipped. I'd be willing to say, that she is more the center of the Catholic faith in Latin America than Christ is in a lot of ways. I'll be honest and say I don't know a ton about Mary Centric Catholic worship, but it does exist. All I know is that when I go to Mexico, Chile, Argentina etc... you see Mary statues and images EVERYWHERE, almost never do you see images of Jesus.

IamsSon might be able to elaborate on that a little more clearly than I can.

Quakers have eliminated all religious icons. You won't even find a cross in one of our meeting houses. As I've mentioned before, as a Quaker, I'm fairly tight in with the Anabaptist community, they don't even encorage taking pictures of each other, since we all believe God is Within, so that would in effect be an icon or graven God image. Now, it's hardly a sin, but it is something to be avoided among the Anabaptist faiths (not so much Quaker though).

The word Catholic was not used until the early 1000's and the fact the Peter started a church in Rome means nothing.

Still refusing to read all...this is why I say ENOUGH COI...I'd rather debate with someone that is will to read and share info...you arent it...

YES. I don't know that I agree with your condemnation of praying to saints and so on, but I sure agree with this, and it's an extremely important point. I'm surprised and pleased to find a Christian stressing it.

According to my reading the Roman Catholic Church. was created in the year 314 A.D. by Emperor Constantine and Bishop Silvester.



fullywired

When I was catholic, i never prayed to saints...didnt feel the need to, cuz I felt it best to pray directly to God and only God


Although funny thing is - there is an old saying - that if you say - St Anthony lost, St Anthony Found 3 times or more when looking for something...it turns up...and I'll have to admit...I used to say it all the time back in the day, and I found everything I had lost...WEIRD, but true!!!!!!!!!

I am glad you are pleased by it. More and more Christians need to let go of that belief. It hurts more than it helps because when something comes along that the Bible does not deal with you will be left without and will doubt your faith. There's so much that the Bible can't do that to believe it as "infallible" is to weaken your faith in God. I was debating a Christian once and asked him "Who wrote Romans" and he actually said God did.

I used to say "Saint Anthony, Saint Anthony, bring back what does not belong to thee."

From my reading I get --> Peter traveled to Rome where his leadership over the church of Rome established the tradition of the papacy. He has come to be regarded as the first bishop of Rome (pope) 1st catholic church..Peter one of the appostles

Yea along the same lines lol...but seriously, it always worked for some reason....


I dont say it anymore, not since I left the catholic faith, i felt it was wrong of me to USE his name after leving the faith...............now when I lose anything..im F0000ked LOL if it turns up..it turns up...but hardly ever turns up lol

I read that too but the source wasn't exactly unbiased


fullywired

I read it from more than one source...I found 4 different sources

I wish this discussion was about just idol worship.

When the church was being formed the Eastern Orthodox Church in Constantinople was oposed to graven images as idol worship, so they didn't want christian art. The Western Church in Rome wanted Christian Art because most people couldn't read and it was a way to tell a story. So east and west split. People forget the Eastern Orthodox Church is just as old as the Roman Catholic Church. Then there are the Coptics in the Middle East. I think they were the first Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Church

I think if I was going to be a Christian I would be a Coptic Christian.

Geri, I think what you remember from being raised as a Catholic is the whole idea of Apostolic Succession, something the Catholic faith is centered around--they feel it gives them license to call themselves the "one true church" because they believe their line is unbroken from Peter. That's ok. Protestants (most) believe in Aposolic Succession as well, but it's different from the Catholic belief. In fact, the Catholic church as been quite clear on the Protestant line of thinking of on the topic... they don't like it at all.

I see both sides of the coin, I tend to lean away from the concept of Apostolic Succession as a whole--I don't think it matters at all. I also don't like the idea of patron saints of anything, which is also fairly central to Catholics (my sister is Catholic, my father-in-law used to be a priest). It doesn't mean that I think they're wrong, it just means that it doesn't suit me. In my opinion, it's all just unnecessarily complicated. Give me simplicity any old day of the week.

Go looking for some of the incredible works of art in some of the Coptic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The images and icons are unbelievably gorgeous. I find it all very distracting, but it's beautiful none-the-less.

If a Christian kneels down before a statue or a cross and feels that this is something that helps them focus then they are not idolizing the image.

Perhaps because I am hearing impaired I see things from a different perspective. But if this argument is made, then we'd need to make the same observation that those using MUSIC and CHANTING as a way of calming the mind during meditation are in fact WORSHIPING and IDOLIZING the MUSIC.

I found more info on Peter being the 1st ever pope of rome...


http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/churb1.htm

Peter is remembered by Christians as a saint; the fisherman who became the right-hand man of Jesus himself, the leader of the early church and a father of the faith. But how much of his fascinating story is true? How much do we know about the real Peter?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/ch...sciples_2.shtml

http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f186.htm

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=5358

The Roman Catholic Church sees Peter as the first pope upon whom God had chosen to build His church (Matthew 16:18). http://www.gotquestions.org/Peter-first-pope.html

Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, left only one epistle of acknowledged genuinity. Let us concede also a second, which however is doubtful." (Commentaries on John 5,3) http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/petertherock.html

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/g...ter_as_pope.php Peter as 1st pope by Jesus


I 1st said I found 4...but then found a lot more lol..and there are more and more like them

Further Reading: Coptic Christianity and the Copts

Coptic Art Studio

When I was catholic, I was told my one of my uncles who is still a preist...that when you kneel down in front of a cross to pray...its there to remind you of how Jesus died for yor sins and it does help you focus


My great aunt always used rosary beeds...they split up on 10 beeds (for 10 hail marys to be said..then one beed = one single prayer - the lords prayer... then repeate...its something for her to focus on

it just gives you something to look at...I guess its better than starring at a blank wall lol...each to their own

I know there is a lot of Eastern Othodox Art, at one point they changed their minds on it. I am not sure when I'll have to look it up. HERE is a good site I found on the Coptic Church and Icons.

http://www.coptic.net/articles/CopticIcons.txt

Interesting stuff.

The Iconoclasm, as far as EOs are concerned was a period in the 8th and 9th centuries. It was instituted by a couple of Byzantine emperors looking for something to blame their military defeats on. The first was from 730 to 787. That one was rather nasty, and the church claims several martyrs from the time. The second one was 813-843, and was not that bad. The end of the iconoclasm is celebrated yearly on the first Sunday of Lent.
If I did not have plans for tonight, I would reply further to the thread and give a probably horrible explanation of the use of icons and the role of saints in the Orthodox churches. The Copts would be included in that, as I am fairly certain that this is one issue that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox do not differ on. Maybe when I get back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm_%28Byzantine%29
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Iconoclasm

Actually, the word "catholic" appears in 107AD, when the church is referred to as a "catholic church". However, the term "catholic" in this sense means "universal" - the universal church. However, the modern-day incarnation of the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until long after the early apostles. The Church does trace their heritage back to Peter and call him "the first Pope", but Peter never considered himself such. They simply traced a line back to them. The organisation known as the "Roman Catholic Church" did not exist in the early days, so the early Christians simply could not be members of an organisation which did not yet exist.

That said, there is idol worship in Christianity, I have no doubt of that. Many churches pray to crucifixes or to saints, or to Mary. As I see it, no human is worthy of my prayer and supplication. Only Jesus, being God, is worthy of that prayer. To pray to any human to speak to God on my behalf seems self-defeating, since all humans are sinful and incapable of interceding on our behalf. Some other people place a certain level of idolatry on their version of the Bible (KJV only'ists come to mind). Others who care more about the letter of the Law than the Spirit of the Law would also fall under that category of idolising the Bible (the Pharisees were guilty of this, as Jesus showed, and I'm sure there are many Christians out there who have followed a similarly legalistic approach while ignoring the spirit of the Law (Love God, Love your neighbour). But the Bible in and of itself is not an idol. It contains the words of God, and it is the words that lead us to God - it is not God and it is not worthy of worship, though the Word of God does have power, in my opinion.

Then there are other forms of idol worship that individual Christians engage in. These are the things we in life strive and struggle for. Do we put God first, or ourselves? Do we put God first, or our career? God first, or money? God first, or status? God first, or self-gratification? Putting other things before God is also a form of idol worship, and I doubt any Christians has managed to evade this form of idolatry their entire lives (I know I haven't, though I strive to do better).

In short, to reiterate, there is idol worship in Christianity. There shouldn't be, but there is. That's a simple fact of human nature.

~ Paranoid Android

My Sunday school teacher actually thought listening to music was idolatry (well, non-gospel). Here was her justification (paraphrased because it's been about 20 years):

"In monarchies, royalty are worshipped like gods. If you live under a monarchy, you worship the Queen, King, Prince, Princess, etc. When you listen to music, you are worshipping the music because you are "caught up in the feeling of it" and are, in essence, worshipping the band, which is idolatry. For a double whammy, if you listen to Queen or Prince, you are not only worshipping the music, but you are also worshipping the idols of royalty. Therefore, listening to music goes against God. Don't forget we have tickets to go see Amy Grant next Saturday. Class dismissed."

Who were the first Christians? There are, in my view, only three groups that can lay claim to being the early Church, the Roman Catholic Church (I'm going to call this the RC from now on), the Eastern Orthodox Churches (EO), and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (OO). Hopefully everyone has heard of the first two, but I am willing to bet most have not heard of the OO. They split from everyone else in the 5th century at the Council of Chalcedon. This would include the Armenians, the Syriac Church of Antioch, the Coptic Church of Alexandria, the Church of Ethiopia, the Church of Eritrea, and the Church of India. Prior to the Chalcedonian schism, everyone was one big more or less happy family. After the OO left, the churches that would eventually form the RC and EO stayed together officially until 1052 when the pope excommunicated the patriarch of Constantinople, and the patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria excommunicated the pope over the filioque mixed with some very strong egos in what we now call the Great Schism. Most people were still on friendly terms with the other side until the 4th Crusade decided it wasn't quite worth it to go all the way to Jerusalem and just sacked Constantinople.
So who were the first Christians? They all were. Who has stayed nearest the early church? As an EO, I'm kinda obligated to go with them. Secondly, I would look to the OO. The EO and OO are quite close doctrinally, close enough that converts from the OO into the EO are often received by confession alone, while converts from the RC and Protestant churches are received by baptism and/or chrismation (the eastern analog to confirmation). The RC, being insulated from Byzantine politics and Muslim invasions, was quite the pillar of orthodoxy for the first millennium. Afterward, things kinda went downhill with things like purgatory, transubstantiation, papal infallibility, and so forth. Anyway, if you want to know more about what the early church looked like, read what they left behind, the Didache, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, etc.

Moving on then to saints.
I would not say that the EO teaches that one should pray to saints, but rather that one is free to ask for their prayers. The EO views those who's earthly lives have ended as much of a part of the Church as those who still dwell on this earth. Therefore, asking for the prayers of the saints is no different than asking for the prayers of friends.

I'll move onto icons in the morning. I need some sleep.
If anyone would like for me to further elaborate on something, I would be happy to do so or to find something that explains it better then I ever could.

I agree with you ,one can find a lot of claims that Peter was the first Pope but there seems to be just as many that dispute the claim ,Here is but one
[url="http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/peterpope.html"]

Most that make the claim are catholic sources .Your link http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/g...ter_as_pope.php is actually arguing against peter rather than for him being the first pope

fullywired

Oh yea I say a few that rants about it and some that disputes it..................thing is all protestant christians all came from the catholic faith..thats why they have the name protestant and now there are many of them...this is what makes christianity the largest of world religions