I worship nothingness all day. So that makes me a religious atheist.

wonderful post Athena, I too beleive in the good of people that is what i see when i look.....welcome to UM (((HUGS)))

I wish religionists would open their eyes a little bit. Many believers reject any idea that opposes their way of thinking. There are so many ways to prove that god does not exist, it is insane. As well as this, I think it is great to live in the moment and when we die, we die, that is it. We don't always have to think that we need to be given the royal treatment with everything, even though many tend to do that every day. We can't keep believing in all of this nonsensical religion, ghosts, and other paranormal phenomena. Just because you believe in fairytales doesn't mean you are better off then the other guy who is trying to help find a cure for cancer.

Is there anything really other than ideas that can be worshipped? Is one really worshipping an idol? Or the 'idea' of what the Idol represents? Does one worship God or the 'idea' of what God represents?

Awesome post. A a very hot avatar pic. Do you ever use whips? *tongue hangs out*

Ya. Everything is an idea until we transcend thought.

You are correct...only SOME do..not all



Well said...we are all indivudals....love how brave has lumped all atheists into one boat LOL

The Atheist's Bible
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/07/...&frame=true

Sean

Awesome hahahaha

A couple of things I don't understand:

1 - why is this a 'problem'?

2 - does it make anyone feel better, thinking atheism is a religion?
( if it does, then good for you, go right ahead and think that )

3 - does it make one feel that the playing field is level, equating non-belief with belief?
( that is your choice )

4 - How does what a person classifies themselves as, affect >>YOUR<< life? How does it impact >>YOU<< ?


5 -What the bloody hell difference does it make anyhow? Trying to follow this thread has shown me nothing except that a group of people love to split hairs and nit pick a subject to death.


In the end, each of us is responsible for our own path. Whatever comes on the other side of death is going to happen regardless of our beliefs on the subject.

Some very wise words man. But Im bored of this thread and wont reply anymore to it. So if I dont reply on this thread to any of you please dont be offended.

I love you all

Whoohoo LOL...dont worry, we wont be offended LMAO

You need to define "consciousness", I prefer to say "Self - aware". Self - awareness IS testable

Tell me a physical attribute of "self-awareness".

So you are not really bored with this thread after all lol

Couldn't resist to that one.

Atheists aren't a problem although many religious leaders would have you think otherwise. Many religious people can't comprehend life without a god or an afterlife. We make up 5% of the population in the US for example we aren't much of a threat to anyone. We are viewed as being immoral sinners by the majority of Christians and seen as less then human.


I think it makes them feel as if they aren't ganging up on a minority. They cannot attack you personally in the public eye so they create a false perception of atheism labeling it a religion.



The playing field is certainly not even, day after day on the TV I hear evangelical leaders spout garbage about atheists. Atheists are a minority as I have mentioned I include myself in this minority. One thing I have learned is that minorities are never on level ground.

It doesn't however labeling another group of people can affect them especially if the stereotypes are bad.

That's the main reason why i haven't really posted to much hear.

I asked the question first... please have the courtesy to answer! And whilst you're doing it please also tell me a "physical" attribute of consciouness

Chemical reactions...

Mind altering drugs for example LSD alter your consciousness, because such drugs can affect your consciousness via biochemical responses it proves that the mind rather then having physical attributes is actually a physical attribute of the brain.

NO! you have only metioned a superficial aspect of the sensory system. What is your definition of consciousness?

Atheism is the absence of a belief, yes. It is not a belief system. Just because it makes no claims (only chooses not to accept other claims), does not mean it has no substance.

Tell me, can I disrespect someone for not appreciating their country? Can I look down on someone for not stopping a crime they could have? Yes, I can.

It's not disrespectful to call atheism a belief, it's just ignorant of what it is. The fact that so many people try to call atheism a faith or religion just shows how many people simply want to find something to accuse or discredit atheists over. Whether atheism is called a faith or not has absolutely nothing to do with the stance it represents, and is of little to no importance.

Here is the question, brave, that you should ask yourself about atheists contradicting themselves.

Do their opinions contradict themselves?

-or-

Do the logistics of the title of atheism contradict each other?

You're focusing far too much on the description of atheism and not enough on what it actually is. Whether you call it a belief means nothing.. what's important is that atheism means no belief in God or gods.

Are you sure you dont share the same brain wave as - brave_new_world lol just kidding

But seriously...you know fine well he is talking about consciousness of the human brain...why must you insit on splitting hairs over a simple word? What has it got to do with the topic - atheism??

What would you be testing? What would the test prove? That we are self aware? Is this not self evident? What side of the fence are you on anyway? (just out of interest...where would you be going with this?) ...Where i would go is to say that as "self awareness AKA consciousness is self evident...regardless of definition...it is. What can be said of a description of understanding is that it is ineffable and without form. And this would mean that it is undivisable, you can not divide something without a form to split. So therefore it is infinate. Atheists may not believe in God, but anyone who is prepared to admit that they have consciousness have veiled within them a true and infinate identity.....



........You asked to define consciousness, but what Brave was trying to demonstrate with his question was the formless nature of consciousness. As it has no form, to define it is impossible. Any definanition given to something without form gives it form and therefore contradicts what it is...or isnt so to speak . So Consciousness can not be defined, it can only be understood or realized. Any definition of it preposed is simply a description of one's understanding.

As we all experience consciousness which we are aware of because it is self-evident, and this consciousness by its formless nature is infinate then what is the nature of someones non belief in God?

It is understandable to reject peoples beliefs in the "God as a seperate entity" idea, beardy man in the clouds. We sometimes forget that words are a description, they are not what they describe. Perhaps the word God is merely a reiteration of that which is self evident and what unites us all...consciousness...the "word's" translation is "i am that i am" theres nothing beardy man in the clouds about that...i think its quite a practicle description of our true nature...consciousness....How can this be rejected? How can you reject yourself? (the royal you, so to speak)

HA HAAA totally offtopic, but it was fun...i am tired, been up all night

NICE ONE!
nn23

Here is the thing that puzzles me! A true atheist does not believe in God or an afterlife and is not concerned about either. I can accept and understand that and even have some respect for their opinion, after all this life may be plenty enough for some people. But I do not understand their desire to trash other people’s faith as if it is a fire to be extinguished is it that they doubt their chosen belief? Or simply a way to strengthen their own convictions?

If I was to place myself in their shoes I would avoid conversations and discussions of things I personal consider nonsense and unimportant. Much like if I did not believe in eating meat the last place I would want to be is the butcher shop. I certainly would not attack someone for enjoying their double cheese burger because it is their choice to enjoy it. But for some strange reason they flock to the spirituality and religion department, that is truly what I do not understand.

Irish

Not really. My own convictions are pretty solid. Though you can apply that last line right back at yourself and every other believer that believes in a religion that punishes and speaks against non-believers of their said religion.

A lot of atheists however point to the immorality of religion. Many religions in themselves are riddled with immorality that only prove to seek more wrongs in this world then rights. Christians right now are sending death notes to evolution professors and planning to picket yet another funeral. Jews right now are killing muslims for more land and settlements to further their own religious right in the area. Muslims right now are murdering innocnet people and are planning more murders in the near future. Hindus actively and openly discriminate against "lesser" human beings of lower castes from petty insults, beatings, throwing acid in their faces and raping them.

I don't understand what's so hard to see that these things are simply wrong and should be spoken against.

In real life, not many care to talk about religion at all............I know I dont lol

How the hell do you have an opinion that isnt belief based? Just because atheism isnt a belief in God or Gods doesnt mean it isnta belief.

Their belief that their belief isnt a belief contradicts them.

It has no physical attributes. It is formless and has a transcended component as well as immanent.

What gets me is that some though not all, try and claim that atheism isnt a conviction (belief)!!!!

Let me finish this line of thought for you.

I'll say that I have an opinion based on what I see and what I observe.

You'll say that what I observe is not what it is, and it's by belief that it's that way because there's no such thing as objectivity.

We'll bicker for about 5 posts over your assumptions about reality and consciousness. They'll get very long.

I'll conclude that we're never getting anywhere because you impose your beliefs into the arguments as truths and our conversation will wind down.


Now, can we move on to discussing atheism's stance on things, and not the way you describe it with one word or another?

Their belief that their belief isnt a belief contradicts them. I dont say thereisnt such a thing as objectivity but that thereis no such thing as independent objectivity (it cannot be proven).

It's so simple. AUGH. Atheism = no theism = no belief in God.

I don't care if you want to say I believe that God doesn't exist, that's completely unimportant. I believe that God doesn't exist just like I believe I'm pushing keys on a keyboard right now. Call it what you want. It's so terribly irrelevant.

Do you admit that atheism is a belief?

BNW, you're simply twisting the meaning of the words to fit your own view. Atheism isn't a faith... So the belief isn't faith based like it is with religions.

Just like how you even started this thread BM told you about booze and it's being a solution is a belief and if I recall you agreed with her.

I don't consider it a belief. You can call it a belief. Atheism means I don't think God exists. That's all that matters.

It's certainly not a religious belief. If it's a "belief" it's one in the sense that all of your opinions of any nature are beliefs.

Why does it matter whether atheism is called a belief or not?

Because how can you put down atheism if it isnt a belief? Also I have no qualms with atheism. It just seems funny to me that someone can claim that they are an atheist but yet say their atheism isnt a belief.

It is like a hindu saying their hinduism isnt a belief.

That's because Hinduism makes claims. It has Gods, etc.

Atheism simply says "No, I don't think that's true."

Do you think "God" is essential to have a belief?

Let me put it like this then.

An atheist saying that his atheism isnt a belief is the same as a communist who says his communism isnt a belief.

Religion is a spiritual issue that why I shop here, how about you You don't seem to be buying so you must only be here to antagonize the shoppers?


To be moral or immoral you require a standard off measure by what or who's standard are you moral by? Christians that are sending death notes to evolution professors and planning to picket funerals are operating under their own standards much like individual atheists they invent their own brand of morality.



And democrats are planning atrocity's against communists, evil wears many disguises whether religious or political or just plain selfishness and greed. It can be an ugly world we live in but place the blame on the individuals that makes evil choices not the ideology's they twist to make excuse for their immoral actions.


We are all responsible for our own deeds good or bad no matter what our excuses are. Being Atheist or Christian is not an excuse for wrong doings. Place blame on the individual responsible not his community,his family or faith.
By all means speak out, but be sure you are speaking to the guilty party and not just generalizing and peg holing. As an Atheist you would not wish to be tarred with the same brush as Pol Pot!

Irish

"____ with religious zeal..." is a trite saying. I follow Battlestar Galactica religiously. That's another trite saying. Both misuse the word "religion".

"Atheism...worshipped..." Once again you mistake a trite saying for the real thing. I worship Tricia Helfer (http://www.triciahelfer.com/). Do I think she is anything more than a human being or that she created the universe or will take my soul somewhere after I die? No, I do not.

What are you talking about?

You can alter your state of consciousness with chemicals a 'physical' property that interacts with the brains internal neurological chemistry. Thus if you can alter your consciousness by altering your brain chemistry this proves that the natural bio chemical/electric reactions that occur regulate consciousness/sub consciousness. Nothing superficial about this at all you can alter your brains chemistry to in turn alter you state of consciousness.

Your brains chemistry is the physical link to consciousness as it is with every other function of the human body.

So if your consciousness was not governed by the brain various drugs would simply have no effect. This however is not the case and quite obvious to people who understand how the brain works to a degree.



Us atheists or me anyway simply accept the laws of nature as fact because they are factual. Things are born, they live and reproduce, and then they die this is how it always worked and always will work. God, an afterlife and so on do not fit in to the laws of nature therefore I disregard them as fictional beings no more real then Superman or Batman.

To have faith means that you have to believe in something blindly, to accept facts which happen all around you everyday and that can even be demonstrated not only in nature but even in a lab. While someone can say i believe this the word believe itself leaves a margin of error because many people believe lots of crazy stuff. I however do not have faith nor do i believe a god doesn't exist I 'know' a god doesn't exist This to me should be common knowledge and those who cannot accept that facts for what they are live their whole lives in a delusional state of mind. This of course is merely my opinion and may not be shared by everyone here.

People believe in god and an afterlife because in reality most people cannot accept death for what it is and that is life ending. When you die thats it your finished there is nothing after you die.



There is a difference...

Atheists like my self state that no god exists this for us is fact and if the facts said there was a god then i would believe but i don't and so here we are. I guess you could say atheists believe in the facts. Atheism is not a belief because you can't believe in not believing something you either believe or you don't. The only belief I am aware of that atheists share is the belief in the facts and natural law. This is a far cry from someone who favors communism over other political systems.



How can you believe in not believing something? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

He sure did agree with me lol

Atheisim is not in any way a faith not even in connection with religion, anyone with any witt can figure that out

BUT it is a belief (nothing to do with religion) just a belief that there is no such thing as God

Kratos, the only real reason WHY some people like to stress on atheisim being a belief , they want to make it SOUND like a religion to PISS ALL ATHEISTS OFF OUT OF SHEER BADNESS nothing more lol


Look at the bigger picture..........its a belief but then again you can say anything is a belief...but you cannot say - its a religion...there is that difference

EDIT - Tit for tat - you can say that all religious people are skeptical...religious skeptics...cuz there is such a thing....they are skeptical that there is nothing for them when they die...skeptical that God is not existance, skeptical that Jesus was never around.......skeptical that Jesus wont ever return....hey I could add more lol

It's not a religious belief. But to describe what I feel about God or God's I would say I do not BELIEVE a God or God's exist. The only other way of me pointing out that I do not believe a God or God's exist would be for me to say I do not think a God or God's exist then that way some people would not get confused because I did not use the word believe.

Spirituality vs Skepticism



Yeah, and that would seem immoral to me and many others who don't even share my atheism.



It's based on the religion and what the religion preaches. Therefore it's the faulty faith system that is immoral.



Yes, you are. So when you suscribe to an immoral religion, it's most of the time on your own free will.

If I as an atheist started preaching about how Stalin was a wonderful man and he did no wrong... I bet a lot of people would call me evil and more. But wait... I'm not really evil because I only am saying Stalin is wonderful and great but I actually didn't kill anybody or anything else he did... So it's all fine?

Are skeptical beliefs and questions not allowed now? eh?

"Do you think "God" is essential to have a belief?

Let me put it like this then.

An atheist saying that his atheism isnt a belief is the same as a communist who says his communism isnt a belief."

Communism is not a belief, come ON! Communism is an economic system.

We need a lot of work on how we use words. I've heard the Religious on this thread use "belief" to mean everything from organized religion to taste in clothes.

"Hence it is an act of faith either way to believe or disbelieve in God."
No, it is not. "Faith" as used in religion means believing something with no evidence and sometimes in denial of evidence showing it's not real.
I do not have "faith" that gods do not exist. I simply have never seen any hint that they do exist so I can't believe in gods until I see evidence.

"An Atheist assumes that a god doesn't exist because there is no evidence to suggest that one does."
Agreed.
"A lack of evidence doesn't mean that something isn't true or real."
Agreed
"So an atheist assumes that no evidence will ever be found to prove the existence of a god."
Whu-HUH??? Where did you get this notion? An atheist does NOT assume that no evidence of gods will ever be found.

"The act of assuming something is the act of believing."
You're playing fast and loose with the word "belief" again. Not to mention that your statement is false. If you assume something, you do not believe it. You simply make decisions as if it is true.

"Also we dont live in a physical universe. Quantum physics have shown that atoms are vastly immaterial."
I get very, very tired of people who watch some quack movie and then start talking about quantum this and quantum that. Quantum effects can only be observed on the atomic level and smaller. Quantum effects are never observed in the world we inhabit. We are not "one with the universe". We are tiny specks standing on a tiny speck orbiting a tiny speck in an corner of a typical galaxy. The universe does not listen to us and does not know that we exist. The universe doesn't know anything. It is not alive or aware. It just is.

"Most people feel a peaceful vibe around enlightened Gurus. You are right that belief and faith is required."
Most people feel a peaceful vibe around peaceful people. We are such social animals that we are constantly watching other humans to be ready to respond to threat or opportunity. The peaceful person's posture, facial expression, tone of voice, etc. convey a huge amount of information into our brains that we may not consciously pick up. Belief and faith are not required.

"Traditional science holds the belief that organic matter and life grew from the chmical ooze of the primeval ocean soley through random interactions of atoms and molecules"
Once again somebody says that very highly ordered processes, such as chemical reactions, are "random". Lose the word "random"! You do not know how to use it.
Oh, and "traditional science" does not say that organic matter grew from Earth's oceans. Organic matter is everywhere. We see its spectrographic signature in light coming from very hot interstellar clouds, we can detect it on asteroids, etc. We haven't detected living organic matter anywhere other than on Earth...yet...but organic matter is all over the place.

"What about the mystics that say consciousness experienced in its most refined level is God?"
This is playing around with the definition of "god". We need a single definition if we're going to discuss gods meaningfully. I recommend that a god must be aware, have volition and have or once have had the ability to affect the universe in some way. Saying that god exists in each of us doesn't meet that definition.

"Atheism is a structured (personal or organized) belief system in which to relate to the world. Hence it is a religion."
Sigh...wrong, wrong, wrong. Atheism doesn't exist. It is the equivalent of zero. Zero doesn't exist. Zero is simply a convenient placeholder to suggest the absence of quantity. Atheism is the absence of religion, nothing more.

"However I disagree that the universe is a just a random happening."
We agree at last! By the way, nobody other than Creationists has ever suggested that the universe is a "random happening". There are fundamental laws of the universe. Newton's laws of motion are closely obeyed except when things get very, very hot, very very massive or very, very fast. Then other laws are very good at describing what happens. Another set of laws is needed to describe what happens on the quantum level. We haven't figured out the laws of the universe that are always obeyed no matter what but that's just because we haven't figured them out yet. It's not because they don't exist or because our desires affect the universe or gods are playing tricks on us.
There are lots of random events but that in no way means the universe behaves in a random manner.

"How the hell do you have an opinion that isnt belief based?"
I have the opinion that I like chocolate mint ice cream. You're saying that is a religion? I worship chocolate mint ice cream so I guess it must be a religion...(yes, I'm joking).

I like how you look at things....marvelous

Thank you! There's been so much bile on this thread that it's nice to read a positive comment.

Stick around, you will find we are all not that negative lol........or are we?

Communism is not a belief. It's an ideology.

And we're talking about spiritual beliefs here. Would you please tell me what sort of spirituality communism implies?