This question doesn't direct itself at us. It seems, instead, it should be directed at those who discriminate against us, and should become, "How can you disrespect them just because they don't believe in what you do?" And as for: "how can they claim that their outlook(belief) is being disrespected?"... Because it is! Just because it isn't a real religion doesn't mean it can't fall under religious persecution.



The fact that we don't believe seems to be enough right there.



It isn't being attacked as a belief system. It's being attacked simply as a disbelief. It reminds me of a story that my substite teacher once told the class: His brother showed him that his parents lied about Santa Claus and the other kids at school started making fun of him because he didn't believe.


And I disagree. To say that Atheism is a belief system is an oxymoron. It is the opposite of belief (in God). Reguarding the thread, your logic appears a bit non sequitur. You said: "If it isnt a belief system then how can it be to be disrepsected?", which shows that you seem to think that, if it isn't a belief system, then it can't be disrespected. Homosexuality isn't a belief system, but today, they are about the only people who have it worse than we do.

Basically, you say that this is why "atheists contradict themselves"? Because not everyone can agree on whether or not it is a belief system?

Atheism is an opinion therefore it is a belief.

Enabling, Modulating and Specific Factors


It is important to distinguish the general, enabling factors in the brain that are needed for any form of consciousness to occur from modulating ones that can up- or down-regulate the level of arousal, attention and awareness and from the specific factors responsible for a particular content of consciousness.


An easy example of an enabling factor would be a proper blood supply. Inactivate the heart and consciousness ceases within a fraction of a minute. This does not imply that the neural correlate of consciousness is in the heart (as Aristotle thought). A neuronal enabling factor for consciousness is the intralaminar nuclei of the thalamus. Acute bilateral loss of function in these small structures that are widely and reciprocally connected to the basal ganglia and cerebral cortex leads to immediate coma or profound disruption in arousal and consciousness (Bogen 1995).

http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/Elsevier-NCC.html

MORE

Many methods have been used to compare conscious and unconscious brain events, but Kreiman et al chose a novel one called flash suppression. Suppose you see two images, one in each eye. Your left eye has a face, while your right eye has a chessboard pattern. This is the standard phenomenon of binocular rivalry phenomenon found in the 19th century. You can show it simply by holding two different objects, one in front of each eye. But now make a small change: For one second only you see the face in your left eye only. Under those conditions the NEW picture in the right eye will become conscious, and the face will disappear from consciousness. The face is suppressed “in a flash,” even though it is still there in front of your left eye.

This method allows us to look for the neurons that respond to the conscious picture, and those that respond to the unconscious one.
http://ramonycajal.mit.edu/kreiman/news/me...ness_review.htm


Typical...dictating to me...yet you can't prove me wrong............after all you claim it to be beliefs....and yet you hang on and even throwing your lil silly insults to try and prove me wrong


Were you conscious when you posted this? if so you certainaly need glasses...we've been through this and over and over I have stated its a belief like anything else...annnndd now the penny drops!!!!!! WOW fiially brave can read lol ...but for some mad lil reason, he skips out how I said its NOT religious...but keeps banging on at me repeating that i said its a belief


You result to name calling...how brave of you lol...no sweetie im not silly....I guess you could say I was silly if I gave in and took your theory as gospel LOL

This doesnt prove that consciousness is created by matter. This only shows the affect/relationship matter has on/with consciousness. This doesnt give ANY information as where consciousnes is located in the brain.



Again how does this show that consciousness is created by matter or where it is located in the brain. I am aware that consciousness is affected by the brain but there still isnt any proof that consciousness is created by the brain.

I dont know what you are trying to say by showing me these things. You ought to read through them carefully.



All beliefs are religious in a sense by the fact that no belief is truth. It is an act of faith to agree with any belief.



Yes.....silly is such an offensive word.

Drego...hun it's a belief yes...but unlike brave, im not going to sit and wind you up and claim it to be a religion lol...its a belief but NOT and I repeat NOT a RELIGIOUS BELIEF

The only reason as to WHY it's seen or can be seen as a belief of some kind, is because atheists BELIEVE there is no such thing as God or Religion...so in a way it makes it a belief

The problem here is....too many people that like to poke fun at Atheists want to slum atheists in their silly lil boat and split hairs on atheisim being a BELIEF SYSTEM...LOL I feel sorry for those people, only because it's SAD they have to split hairs to get up the nose of an atheist

Brave also happens to think for some reason its a religion too LMAO...he only cares about attempting to prove others wrong...he doesnt care for your opinions lol....

A beleif can be linked to anything...like Alcohol...some believe that drink is the answer to all their problems...it can be seen a a belief...but NOT linked in any way to religion

YOU Drego..believe in yourself...hence another belief right there..but so NOT religious...

Hey if it makes ye feel any better...you can class all religious as skeptics...........they are skeptical that Jesus wont ever return LOL I could go on

HOLD UP A SEC...........

There is NO way in hell you managed to read BOTH of those sites brave and still managed to post a reply around the same time i posted to Drego LMAO...get outta here...you glance and post..is that it??

Oh BTW you and I BOTH know you only used the word SILLY as a sugar coated way to call me STUPID LMAO...which is something im far from being...LOL but its understandable how SOME men, dont like a woman that can hold a debate with them for too long, they WILL result in name calling..lol....wont be long till you get nasty...which will prove my point

I didnt read both of those sites. I only read what you put up on the post.



Who are you trying to convince here? Me or yourself?

Brave - If you were in an accident and you where knocked unconscious...what would be effected?? (god foorbid it doesnt happen im only using this as an example)

I posted the links for a reason....but anyhoo i knew you couldnt have read the entire sites!!!

unconsciousness and consciousness are both forms of consciousness. If I was knocked on the head the brain would be affected and that in turn would affect my consciousness. However this doesnt prove that the brain creates consciousness or that consciousness is located in the brain. It only shows that consciousness experiences the physical world but not a product of it.

Post on the thread the part in those sites which proves that consciousness has been located in the brain or is created by the brain.

And were do you suppose self awareness comes from??

Dont answer a question with a question lol

so again I ask you - QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 18 2007, 09:31 PM)
Brave - If you were in an accident and you where knocked unconscious...what would be effected?? (god foorbid it doesnt happen im only using this as an example)

care to give me YOUR own answer?

Nowhere. I believe it is eternal and has always existed and always will.

I did. Post 210

Yes obviously it would be your brain.....now because you think it cant be proven that it stems from the brain...and to a what looks like a contradiction, you KNOW that if knocked out, you would loose full consciouness

Thats says enough for me LOL

I rest my case

Yeaa and for some reason on post 211 you did the same thing, only you oquted my same question..which landed on the new page -refreshed lol..any wonder i didnt see the 1st one

So this is just a simple belief you hold...not fact...so this whole time, you have made threads and several argumentative posts on a SIMPLE BELIEF!!!!!!!!!!and regardless how many times people have posted what they see as fact (belief also)...you have argued every last one...just to try and convince us all you are right!!?WTF??

*reaches for ciggy*

I get it now. You're not interested in having a serious discussion about religion or the lack of religion. You just like playing with words without understanding how to use them.
You've wasted too much of my time. Goodbye.

Atheism... is an opinion? I guess I can see how that could work... but, if atheism is then so is religion. Also, a belief and a religion are two completely separate things. Atheism is not a religion, but that doesn't mean it is safe from prejudice.

He wasted my time too....when I realized at the end the whole reason and what he was doing over a belief of his..I no longer saw him as the good debater, but a time waster

I agree that religion is opinion as well.

For our enquiry into the use of words can be equally regarded as an enquiry into the nature of the facts which they describe. (Ayer)


A lot of people get offended when I go deep into some situations. I know you may have a belief system to defend and it can be scary when someone shows it for what it is.

Rest your case on lack of proof. Again I'll repeat: science has not yet been able to pove that brain matter creates consciousnes.

Where have I tried to convince you that I was right? I wrote I "believe" that consciousness is eternal. I admit that it is only a belief.

Fair enough. Basically, what I'm still wondering is - since you included quite a few things in your topic post, what was the main thesis or question for this thread?

"But I still can't understand what an atheist has to worship, UNLESS you are talking about worshiping the IDEA that there is no God???
*shrugs*
[/quote]

Becky's mom,hello-some atheists/freethinkers I know like to see themselves as worshipping 'common sense' but I suspect they may be bias.
What I think is important is that fact that ALL religious beleif is just simply speculation and conjecture-there is no evidence whatsoever for any aspect of religion.
The 'Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster' should be afforded just as much credibility as any other 'non provable beleif system' as it is all faith (not fact).
I do sympathise with some atheists as sometimes it seems certain organised religions cry out for tolerance and understanding yet utterly fail to reciprocate those same values to agnostics,freethinkers etc...
Because there is not one scrap of evidence to give one religion dominion over any other,perhaps all 'opinions' about God,Gods or no Gods should be treated with exactly the same level of respect and worth.
Regards Karl

Awesome post Karl! And I agree with you about the 'Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster'.

That atheists claim their atheism isnt a belief (opinion).

I prefer the Invisible Pink Unicorn myself......




Invisible Pink Unicorn
Temple of the Invisible Pink Unicorn

EDIT: Had to remove a link

Not all of us God-believers have a disbelief of the Big Bang! Please don't lump all Christians together. I have to admit that some do embarrass me, though. They are as closed-minded as atheists. I am liberal-minded, but also a believer in God. My belief is that any intelligent person can't help but believe in God.

Ah, then I misunderstood your post. I have become so accustomed to seeing the term "belief" in the context of "faith" that I forgot to take things literally. My mistake

Well, that comes across as a bit... ofensive...

If it was really only a belief then the following would sbe seen as terms of contradiction so to speak when you say...



And yet you showed NO real proof to support your case either..all you have done is waste peoples time, you created an illusion that you were serious and had thought about it, till now, and its send off the waa waaa waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa tune in my head...kinna like watching what looks to be like a exciting movie, with a crappy ending, and you look like --> in the end lol
That's how I have seen this whole debate with you, all hyped up, thinking we are getting in a serious debate and for what?? to see if you can tell us that your BELIEF and your own theory is RIGHT and how our thoughts and we are wrong lol

Anyone can play with words...but gee it takes a lot to actually read all and understand what people are saying, after all look how many times you blanked out were i had said - Yes Atheism is a belief, I said it a lot, then for some reason you put....
clearly showing how you payed attention NOT!!!!! the penny drops hours later lol

You say I cant prove it...yet at the same time...NEITHER can you...<----------bottom line...so this whole debate was pointless if you believe NEITHER OF US CAN PROVE IT

But mine doe make a lot of sense...you did say i side more with the common sense side to it...well naturally...its logical also that once you are put under anaesthetization, you loose consciousness PERIOD...no buts about it...if consciousness stemmed from anywhere else and functioned everything else ELESEWERE...then if knocked out,,, you wouldnt really loose consciousness would you?? LMAO...therefore whether you believe it can or cant be proved it comes from the brain...common sense tells you it DOES and HAS to only stem from the brain
I like to run with the more obvious logical explanation that is common sense also LOL

Karl ...I have stated over several times...that YES Atheisim is a belief....uhuh sure have said this...go through the thread and it will jump out a few times lol..a belief that God and religion don't exist LMAO well its true aint it??(meaning what they believe)

BUT its not religious...and can never be seen in any way religious....PERIOD


cheers

You call that being liberal minded towards peoples views??? i call it close minded coming from your post and remark on atheists

Oh no... that reminds me of that awful Paula Zahn clip...

The IPU does exist! Here it is



So cute!



EDIT There was supposed to be a picture...

Hey BM...you just gave me a mad thought. If Atheism is a belief that there is no God, because the non-belief is still a belief, then is not a non-religion a type of religion based on the same reasoning?

....just a thought

I was trying to say that there are people with "close-mindiness" on BOTH sides of the issue. I did not intend to offend anyone.

Hi nn23

Well to be honest, they are just a positive and a negative cancelling eachother out ...a religion & non religion both a positive and a negative..cancelling eachother out that leave you with NOTHING lol

yea when I look at it like that I believe that makes sense

cheers chick

They say atheism is a belief ?

An atheist can "believe" there is no god or

alternatively "do not believe" there is a god

So what is it ? It's nonsense and you guys can just make it whatever tickles your tootsies

It's all wordplay

Your supposedly not as closed minded as atheists yet you refuse to accept the fact that intelligent people don't believe in god?

This statement is very offensive to atheists because unlike you we accept the fact that intelligent people do and don't accept a higher being. Your belief that intelligent people can't help but believe in god is flat out wrong any liberal minded 'intelligent' person would know this. Technically the only ones open minded to the idea of a god etc are agnostics as they are undecided as to whether one exists or not.



Your belief in god makes you just as closed minded on the issue as us atheists who don't. Neither side will ever accept the others position as factual and this is fact. The only ones who have an open mind are those who stand in between both sides of the debate.



To clarify my position as an atheist I believe in the laws of nature which is basically you are born, you multiply and then you die after furthering the species to ensure it's survival. The same thing happens to us when we die as everything else that lives. If you are an atheist you must accept the laws of nature including natural evolution as fact.

Arghhh! I told myself that I wouldn't give this imbicile thread any more of my valuable time but I really must respond to this idiocy.

Atheism IS NOT A NEGATIVE!
Atheism DOES NOT EXIST!
ATHEISM IS (get ready for it) NOTHING!!!!!!

1 + 0 is NOT the same as 1 + (-1)!
Atheism IS NOT (-1)!
Atheism is...DRIVE THIS INTO YOUR BRAINS...
ZERO!!!

I have said this over and over but The Believers insist on denying that...
ATHEISM DOES NOT EXIST!

There IS NOT such a thing as atheism. Atheism refers to a LACK of something else.

Please, please, please, human beings snap out of your religious training and grok that there is a huge, amazing universe righy outside of your tiny, book-controlled possibility.
The irony is that the most fettered of people (the woo-woo-alien-abduction-conspiracy-this-and-conspiracy-that-"I've been abducted") cringelings are the FIRST to blame everybody else for their problems.
Sorry, mate, you'll have to earn your way out of the institution before I let you waste my time. Cheers.

[size="6"][/size]

Really? Is that that what you meant by "Any intelligent person can't help but believe there is a God"?

You just reminded me of what I call the "Atheist paradox".

ok...Athe-ism... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ism

Don't try to break down a word like that; it's an incorrect etymology.
Intead of 'Athe-ism', it is 'A-theism' (Greek: "A" - without, "Theos" God[s])

Well belief and faith are both the same really. Belief being opinion and faith (both a synonym for trust and belief) the conviction in that belief.

"I have become so accustomed to seeing the term "belief" in the context of "belief in God" that I forgot to take things literally."

Does that help?