Hence why I have said in various threads:

It is just as much an act of faith to believe that consciousness comes from the brain as it is to believe it is the soul. Because no one knows how consciousness came about we can only speculate.



This thread is about me being frustrated by atheists claiming their belief isnt a belief. Not a consciousness thread.



I havnt claimed mine are right and yours are wrong. I have only stated that there is lack of proof either way and hence it is an act of faith to follow our beliefs.



Because a religious belief and a belief are both belief. There is no difference fundamentally between them. No belief is truth because of the very reason that a belief is a belief.



Where have I disagreed here? My claim is that all beliefs are faiths.



I'm glad you think so hahahahahahahaha



Unconsciousness is a form of consciousness and so we dont lose consciousness period but experience a different level of consciousness.




I just did a "but" then.



No consciousness equals no reality. When we experience unconsciousness there is no experience of world. Hence we can quite logically say that consciousness creates "world".

It does. I appreciate you telling me this. And I apologize if I came across too arrogant.

If atheism is nothing then how could it exist for you to say it is nothing? Also if atheism is nothing then atheists wont mind people pulling down atheism because it doesnt exist.

No, believe me, after much of the stuff I've seen, there is no way I could think you were being arrogant. However, I still think that Atheism is not a belief system.

According to Blizno, Atheism is neither a positive or a negative. If Atheism = 0, then what does religion equal?

Wow... talk about an extended metaphor

It is my sincere belief that you are entitled to that belief.
Cheers man.

Cheers.

1st of all keep your rotten insults to yourself dont post your arrogant crap on here

And Atheism DOES exist ...period...dont sit and tell me what I should bloody think.....atheism is the term given to atheists as a group....good lord gimme strengh

I would be as childish as you with the whole HUGE FONT but see you aint that special...and if you wanna INSULT me hun, do it in PM...

As far as im concerned Atheism does in fact E X I S T
Have a good day now wont you

ohh and I hate to break it to ya mate, but no one asked you to post again, you said you wernt taking nothing to do with the thread and in you came to INSULT and yap your face off at me LMAO...you wasted your own time LMAO cuz I will still state screw it ATHEISM EXISTS......................just in the same way terrorism exists ect....its a term used to lable a group of people PERIOD and I am very much entitled to say so
Now only a arroagant person would wanna insult and yap b*tch and complain over someone saying it exists...if you wanna contiinue your moaning over it and the fact that you fail to understand simple mathmatics....lol .....PM me and keep your nonsense off this board

yeaa true a lot do sat they believe it sure does come from the brain....you are the only one that I have ever heard say likewise

I wasnt the one to drag consciousness into it...no prizes guess who did though lol


This is weird...I don't understand why you would be fustrated over some atheists claiming it's not a belief...why would something so trivial get to you??? but then again look at that last guy, he went ballastic at me saying atheism exists lol he even insulted me as well....clearly showing too much uncalled for anger .............all over one freaking word - Atheism wtf?


Have you ever thought of it their way brave?....how religious people have painted the word belief as a religious meaning? and so many that believe this sillyness, have tried to state, that Atheism is a religion.....so that's WHY atheists get annoyed of it being called a belief.....if you can understand...if not, then please dont debate something if you are not willling to look at how other see it

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth. --Mahatma Gandhi

Not my own words but beautiful words nevertheless.

as you like to believe it lol


but its a good quote

Im not overly frustrated. Not anymore anyway. This thread was a good outlet.



I have. And I still think it is illogical.



All belief is a religious meaning in a sense that all belief is faith.



Again my definition of religion is the sum of beliefs that make a person and affects that persons actions and decisions in life.

Hence why I say that atheism is a belief/religion (personal, organized or otherwise).

I dont think you have tried much at all to look at it their way, I think you know you are acting on your own biased opinions and nothing more...here is why...




If atheism was in fact a real religion, then it would be reconginzed as one.................but it's not and that is fact...you can google it and you wont see it there in with the world religions and their branches...not existed with those...I doubt it ever will be

The trouble you seem to have is - what the word belief means...cuz for some reason you seem to think --> All belief is a religious meaning in a sense that all belief is faith <--- you wrote it in your last responce...and I have to 100% disagree with you. Reason being, is because, people hold beliefs in other things in life that are in no way linked to a God or religion....heck im pretty sure people had faith/beliefs in things BEFORE man mentioned any God existing


I have faith in myself...and not in a religious sense neither....I think everyone should believe in themselves...and nothing religious about that either

What about people who have never heard of religion and wouldnt understand it...are you trying to tell me, that they must not believe in anything else...even themselves??

What about lil children, who havent a clue about religion and faith............................their beliefs in Santy clause...are you going to tell me, ohhhhhhhh its a religious belief??


If so....I think you are cookoo LOL (playing with you lol).......I believe you are coo koo ...hey why not stick an ISM at the end and call it a religion lol...like - Cookooism again just playing with you lol


It took you long enough cuz you were just as fustrated last time you made a thread like this lol

I know...I nearly burst a rib when i read his lil rant about it ho ho lol

Ah yes sorry,I thought you were of the opinion that atheism is not as valid and credible as any other beleif (my mistake).
Due to lack of any direct or indirect evidence for the existence of any given deity,I agree that folks should be able to beleive whatever they wish(unless said beleif encourages bigotry,intolerance and prejudice).
Some people beleive in one god ,some people beleive in many gods and some people beleive that because god doesn't need a creator,then why does the universe? - all points of view should be treated with equal merit,credibility and tolerance(in an ideal world of course)
Thanks for the reply
Cheers Karl

I apologized privately to Beckys_Mom for my foolish and childish blow up. My comments weren't meant for her. I apologize to everybody else on this thread as well.

And i accept your kind appology...thank you...it takes a real man to admit he is wrong




and then you get the ego's and the ones that believe they are too good to appologize LOL


anyhoo thanks for that..............I appreciate it

No probs Karl...thanks

This whole misunderstand has been frustrating me because it's obvious to me but nobody else seems to hear what I've been saying.

I'll start by clarifying that I am using my definition of atheism, which is the absence of belief in gods. Many people define atheism as belief in the absence of gods, I don't. I don't believe that gods don't exist. They may exist. I haven't seen any slightest hint of the existence of any god but I can't say that they do not exist.

I do not believe in gods. Rocks do not believe in gods. Brave's logic says that rocks are religious.

The atheism = 0 comment means that the absence of a thing is not itself a thing. Absence of belief is not belief.

First.. the widely accepted definition is - atheism is define as Believing there is no god.. Agnosticism is having no belief in anything that cannot be observed / demonstrated. So to use a different definition can be confusing.

There's also a difference between making the choice to not believe (which is in itself a belief... ie. you do not believe for some reason, and that in itself is your belief) and never considering something in the first place.

I also feel that that the absence of something is itself a thing though - even if that 'thing' is only a concept. Sometimes that concept of absence is required to work with concepts of things that are there. 0 for examples has several important properties in math .. but it is technically just the absence of a value.

Agnostics dont know if there is a way to prove God..and they believe there is no way to disprove God......what you just described leaned more to atheism

I could not agree more with this statement!

Agnostics unlike atheists or believers are in between both views. Ask a believer if god exists they say yes, ask an atheist they say no but ask an agnostic and they say 'I don't know'.

Exactly !

Heh, you phrased it better, but I don't think my wording is more like atheism -- either way no point in arguing over semantics if we agree on the essence.

I agree

Yes but you do believe in your belief that atheism is the absence of belief in gods, hence the conviction is built on belief. Also atheism cannot be the absence of belief in gods because if that were so the notion of "absence of belief in gods" would not exist or be present for you to admit such a notion to being atheism.



You are not a rock so how can you tell whether they believe in gods or not? Also a rock may not believe in gods but it also doesnt not believe in gods at the same time.



The thing can never exist in the first place going by your logic, to deny its existence. Words come from thoughts and thoughts (to an extent in less abstract terms) are reality. For something not to exist it wouldnt reflect in thoughts. Thought and physical reality are one and the same because no physical reality can be proven to exist outside of thought. We simply assume that thoughts/senses reflect an independent objective reality (something science cannot prove).

Hence we cannot say what doesnt exist because to say that something doesnt exist is to confirm the denied thing's existence. What we cannot think we cannot think, therefore we cannot say (or percieve) what we cannot think.

Atheism is an opinion and therefore a belief. No belief is true because of the very nature of belief which is opinion. If an opinion is correct then it isnt an opinion but fact or truth. For atheism to be taken out of the sphere of opinion or belief it would have to proven as truth or fact. Until that time it is opinion. Since it is an opinion it requires an act of faith to believe in it.

I am acting on my beliefs. It is my belief that atheism requires faith, I came to this belief via my own reasoning and philosophizing.



You forget that I believe all beliefs are religious to the extent that all beliefs require faith. Just because it isnt registered as a 'real religion' (which by the way is a massive debate and subject by itself on defining what 'real religion' is) by whatever authority doesnt mean that it isnt.

I recognize that it is one so you cannot say that it isnt recognized as one by everyone. Therefore to say that it isnt recognized as one isnt fact.



I cant say whether people had beliefs/faith other than God before the notion of God because I dont know the time when the notion of God came into being. Also I wasnt there to observe.

However if man had other beliefs before the notion of god then those beliefs were also not proven because beliefs arnt facts. Therefore it still would have taken faith to agree with those beliefs.

A belief is a belief whether the belief is in god or not. All belief is not proven and therefore requires faith to believe in. Why you believe that faith and belief being the same is one hundred percent wrong I dont know.



You just said here : I have faith in myself

Then you say here: I think everyone should believe in themselves

You used both words in the same context.

Again, how is belief (or believing) in oneself fundamentally different from having faith in oneself??



They may have a different word for religion or similar/different concepts. I cannot tell you because I have never met anyone who isnt familiar with the notion of religion/beliefs.

As for people who have never heard of organized religion, well in my view such people (if civilized and ethical enough) are probably more emotionally and spiritually liberated than those imprisoned by rigid doctrines.



It requires faith to believe in Santa clause because santa clause hasnt been proven. Therefore it is religious to the extent that it requires faith to believe in him.

I find children however to be more directly in tune with reality on an intuitve level which is more closely connected to joy than faith. If anything, one finds faith so as to recapture the naked open mindedness of a child but on a higher level.



Any 'ism' has the potential to become an organized belief system, including atheism.



I feel too intuitively right to be frustrated now.

Science cannot prove there is no god.

I do kind of - "sort of" believe- in unseen energies but don't know what they are and this still not mean an all powerful god is guiding these energies.

The bible and other religious texts are "way messed up" to say the least,contradictory and unreliable. This is what is being proven every day.(if this is too horrifying for you believers of old books -then keep your ears and eyes shut tight !)
The evidence for this is rapidly building up . Just look to neuroscience,archeological finds,physics,biology and astronomy these all are proving many religions assumptions to be false.
The inaccuracy of it all is mind boggling.
Theists have been caught red handed in distorting scientific facts and they are and will be answering for it soon .Example:Intelligent design

And one more thing-
One of you said or insinuated on this topic that atheists cannot be intelligent if they do not believe in god.
Look at these. When in doubt do a search. This does not include all religious people . I know some that are smarter than my atheist friends. And there are many types of intelligence.


Argument

Is it more logical to be a Christian? Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious.

To place these studies in perspective, it is helpful to know the general religious attitudes of Americans today. According to a February 1995 Gallup poll, 96 percent of all Americans believe in God, and 88 percent affirm the importance of religion. However, the degree of religiosity within this group varies considerably. Only 35 percent can be classified as "religious," using a definition that requires them to consider religion important and attend religious services at least once a week. And a March 1994 Gallup poll found that only 20 percent of all Americans belong to that politically active group known as "Christian conservatives."

The following is a review of several studies of IQ and religiosity, paraphrased and summarized from Burnham Beckwith's article, "The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith," Free Inquiry, Spring 1986: (1)

STUDIES OF STUDENTS

1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conservative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."

2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward… atheism."

3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, aged 10-16. Found a negative correlation between religiosity and IQ as measured by the Terman intelligence test.

4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "There is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability… There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence…"

5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 students, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."

6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."

7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.

8. Brown and Love, 1951
At the University of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. The mean test scores of non-believers was 119 points, and for believers it was 100. The non-believers ranked in the 80th percentile, and believers in the 50th. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."

9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."

10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the University of Wisconsin.

11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.

12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.

13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.

14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37 percent of Christians, 58 percent of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.

15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.

16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022).

17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. They reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's."







I guess we partook fruit of the evil tree of knowledge ? Is knowledge evil ? That's another topic.

And by the way there alot more of those where they came from. Worldwide studies come to the same conclusion.

So much for atheism and stupidity.

I wonder if the positive correlation between intelligence and atheism is a generation thing though. My basic premise being - people who consider what religion fits for them are probably more intelligent (regardless of if they change religion or not).

Until recently, very few people would openly be atheist.. they would just be non-practicing in their particular religion (I think... if I'm wrong on that.. then my logic on the rest probably wont follow). So now, when atheism is more accepted / common.. what typically happens is someone disagrees with their parents religion, and then choose to consider themselves atheist. What that means is that the majority of atheist have put some thought into what they believe. On the other hand people who put no thought into what they believe will default to whatever their parents were - in previous generations this would typically mean a mainstream religion. So overall the religious group will be more dilute -- sure some will have considered their religion carefully, but some just don't care and go with what they've been told. If this is true.. as the newer generations mature.. there will be more 'default' atheists, and the relative intelligence of the atheist group will revert to the average.

It would be interesting if there was a study the looked for a correlation between people who have considered other religions (with or without changing) to IQ.

ha ha...yeah, excellent point man! ...i wonder what else you could correlate it with...IQ tests are so out, there is quite a range of inteligence tests now other than that of IQ...perhaps some study could be devised to see if there was a correlation between brought up atheists and speed it takes to make judgements...it would interesting to compare the results of this with people who were brought up religious and then compare the results to people who rebelled so to speak atheists brought up religiious and religious who were brought up athiest.

speed it takes to make judgements would not be a rating of inteligence, it would just show how long someone chooses to contemplate things for....mmm

NICE ONE
nn23

lol i concur NN anyone can be intellegent it has more to do with the available and acsessability to the intellegence around one...... .IQ tests are absurd LOL IMO of course....

If everyone can be intelligent why do children not share the same school grade scores even though they are in the same class ?

And why do they learn at different rates ?

Please show me how IQ tests are absurd ? (data) Outdated yes but absurd ?

Interesting point !

An IQ test does not rate any other capabilities than a fraction of knowledge someone contains and their ability to express it in a certain time...everyones brains have different capabilities and methods of coping with data.

I was terrible at maths but am an accomplished musician...i would recieve low grades in maths, but distinctions in all my music grades. If the maths tests were IQ i would be noted to have a low IQ but yet i could still measure complicated equations with notes...IQ tests only relate to their context, but their context is not knowledge totality.

Kids do not learn at different rates necesarily because of their level of intellect but because of the way they cope with data together with the way their teacher teaches. One teacher might teach parrot fasion which would be fine for kids whos memory works via repetition...but kids with a photographic memory would need to relate information to objects and therefore find the parrot fasion lessons more difficult...would this make them less inteligent?

This example i have given is only very simple to make a point. There are many ways our memory for learning works and we all have strengths and weakness...the point is children probably show different school grade scores for a number of reasons...namely their learning style, lifestyle and brain chemistry (i recieved low grades not for lack of inteligence but attention ADHD)...but these are very BIG subject areas that i have simplified to one word.

IQ tests are absurd.

Atheism is a religious belief.


nn23

Yes nn23, i agree with almost everything you posted.
There are 9 types of intelligence. Music ability is one of them.

I was also terrible at mathematics (starting 7th grade level) but did have some teachers eventually who could teach me some of it. (like algebra)

Why are they still using IQ testing ?

Concerning atheism as a religion (I am not one)

Poch writes:

There is nothing of religion that is associated with Atheism. We have no dogmas, no rituals, no gods, no priests, no worship, no prayer, no holy places, no churches, temples, no synagogues, and no miracles. Any dictionary or encyclopedia will tell you that religion is a system of attitudes, practices, rites, ceremonies and beliefs by means of which individuals or the community put themselves in relation to a god or to a supernatural world, and from which the religious person derives a set of values by which to judge events in the natural world.

That is because the atheist belief doesnt require that stuff. It is still an act of faith to agree with atheism for the very reason that atheism cannot be proven to be absolute.

Its fact brave...

Proof --> Atheism NOT recoginzed as a religion

Here - > Atheism not seen here either along with real religious faiths

Here --> Atheism not found

Thats just a few...there are more and Atheism not not recogized as even CLOSE to a religion...I doubt it ever will be...its NON-Religious LOL


Santa hasnt been proven? Says who?? I'll have you know Santa WAS infact a real person before LOL...

Care to look? ---> When the REAL Santa was alive

And when I was a kid and believed in a Santa ...to me it was NOTHING religious about what I once believed.....

Neither was the tooth fairy LMAO


I never said or even thought they were different LMAO...what baffles me is WHY you bothered to quote that?? To believe in yourself is to have faith in yourself...now if this still baffles you...so be it...


Probably being the key word here LOL...you say probably...but that dont make it SO does it?? Only cuz you dont know for sure!!


You are right, you wernt there lol so how you can try and debate it is funny LOL

As far as im concerned..Atheism is not reconized as religious in any way...facts do say that Atheism is non religious..<--fact...

The only ones that try and twist it into religion are those that feel they want to annoy the atheists...you seem to fall into that group lol

These sites dont take my argument into account.



I meant the version of santa promoted by coke with the "flying reindeer" which by the way i believe in until proven false.



You said that belief isnt faith.



Hence why I said probably.



You are the one who brought it up and not me.



A fact to you and your internet sites. Not a fact to me.



I fall into that group by your own choosing.

Show me were I have actually said belief is not faith<---cuz as far as im conserned brave, I have stated belief is not always linked to religion...as in religious faith...I DID say..faith / belief can be linked to anything...that dont always mean its religious

You said I said: All belief is a religious meaning in a sense that all belief is faith

You said: and I have to 100% disagree with you.

Yes only cuz you soley linked faith to religion, thats why i said I 100% disagree with you on that...because belief/faith vcan link to just about anything not religious...they are just words

Its silly IMO to only think that faith is linked only to something religious...very silly and not really thought much of IMO

Yes because our faith and beliefs to a large measure determine how we act. And MY definition of religion is the sum of beliefs an individual has.

I am going to draw this to a close...and conclusion

Brave - belives it as a religion and claims atheism doesnt exist <--if that makes sense...although if it doesnt exist, why peg it religious LOL but like I say...its YOUR BELIEF

BM say its NOT a religion but atheism very much exists <---------------------MY BELIEF AND What I see as FACT


END OFF

WHERE DO I SAY ATHEISM DOESNT EXIST????I SAID THAT IT ONLY DOESNT EXIST IF IT ISNT A BELIEF. AND YES I DO SAY IT IS A RELIGION. I wish you wouldnt twist my well written words.



Leave it where you like. You havnt made logical sense to me throughout the whole debate.

awwwwwww someone is sore BM wont drag this out with him...........brave there is a time when things like this are just getting boring...and not to forget, you are not going to change anyone's mind and that includes me too. You have stated you are only posting your beliefs, thats it...but thats all I have done, is post what I know and what i too believe


Your side of the debate didnt make good logical sense IMO...you like wise..

thats it in a nut shell....I mean what else is there to be said that would change anything??

ANSWER - NOTHING ELSE...its over...you said all you can...and I got bored LOL

But you are saying I have said things I havnt to back your argument. I said that if atheists claimed that atheism isnt a belief then they cant be upset when people pull it down because it isnt a belief that canbe pulled down.

You said I claimed it doesnt exist.



Very well it is over but dont say I have said things when I havnt when you draw the debate to an end.

YAY!!!!!!! no nmore of it LOL



untill brave strikes again and wants ANOTHER thread to state what he believe and well dare anyone say likewise lol...hey if you do brave make another repeat thread...it will be part of a trilogy LMAO we can call it - The Brave New Trilogy tag line - the guy that tries to make something out of Nothing lol

I have to agree somewhat
I have to share this email I got sometime ago....(supposed to be true)

All members of Mensa have I.Q.s of at least 140.
At one Mensa convention, several members at a local cafe noticed the shaker with an S on top, for salt, contained pepper and the pepper shaker, with a P on top, was full of salt. How could they swap the contents of the bottles without spilling anything and using only the implements at hand?

Clearly, here was a perfect Mensa challenge!

They presented ideas, debated them, and finally came up with what they felt was a brilliant solution involving a napkin, a straw, and an empty saucer. They called the blonde waitress over to dazzle her with their solution.

“Ma'am," they said, "we couldn't help but notice that the pepper shaker contains salt and the salt shaker contains pepper"

"Oh, sorry!" interrupted the blonde waitress. "Here," and she unscrewed the caps of both bottles and switched them.

As I have told many over the years.....it is not only what you know that makes you a genius....it also takes how you use that knowledge


BTW: I do not mean to insult any blonds or waitresses here.



Only in the legal sense.

It is so Atheists can have the same legal protection afforded to real religious beliefs



You my friend have been hanging around me to long!