So do you admit that it is a belief system (personal or otherwise)?

No, it's not a belief system. Let's say you go into the woods and come back saying you saw a unicorn. I would say "I don't believe you." I might ask you to prove to me that it exists, but it is certainly not my responsibility to disprove it.

It's the same situation. I have nothing to prove, I simply don't believe something that you do. I don't see why giving it a name is so important to you.

Since science cannot prove these things (yet), there has to be a god / higher power? Wow. Almost as bad as using gods to explain lightning.

So if atheism isnt a belief then how can I disrespect your view? It isnt a view/belief in the first place to be disrespected.



I dont want you to prove anything because you dont believe in anything to be a belief to prove. This is from your own admission because you have stated that it isnt a belief system (personal or otherwise).

However if you want to assert it is true then you'll have to show proof.

Mystics stake the claim or God or infinity because it has issued from direct experience.

EVERYONE PLEASE LET ME CLEAR SOMETHING UP. MY PROBLEM WITH MANY ATHEISTS ISNT THAT THEY DONT BELIEVE IN GOD. IM ALL FOR FREE SELF EXPRESSION. MY PROBLEM IS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THEY DONT BELIEVE IN GOD. MY PROBLEM IS THAT THEY WONT ADMIT THAT THEIR ATHEISM IS JUST A BELIEF LIKE ANY OTHER. MANY AND BUT NOT ALL WONT ADMIT THAT THEIR "ISM" OF TRUTH IS A FAITH BECAUSE IT CANNOT BE PRVEN TO BE ABSOLUTE PROOF.

Ok, seriously, this is just a silly word game you are playing here. What is the difference between saying "a belief in no god" or "no belief in a god" or "lack of belief in a god"?
What is your point? What if it is a belief?



No. Lack of proof on the side of the person making the claim means the claim isn't credible. What am I trying to prove anyways? You come along and say you believe something, and I don't. There is nothing to prove. I'm not making any claims. I'm simply not accepting yours.

I'm sure ancient mystics claimed the same thing about Zeus.

So what was the point of the post I responded to? It didn't prove anything except the fact that science can't explain everything.

Exactly it is word games. Too many atheists on here have claimed that their atheism isnt a belief. Hence the reason for the thread. Im not here to convince atheists they are wrong in their beliefs but that their atheism is a belief like any other and requires proof like any other. That is all.

I apologize if I have come across hot headed and arrogant.



And I respect that.

Zeus, Nirvana, God, Tao are all different names for the same thing.

Zeus has a personal as well as impersonal aspect.



Hence science too has limitations. Other than our own essential existence (consciousness) which science cant prove and religion tries to explain what can we say for sure that is true?

You don't come off that way, I understand it's just a debate.

Well, imo, it isn't a belief. It's hard to explain my opinion on it, but if you can imagine someone who is born on an island with no contact with humans. He will be an atheist without knowing it, because he will not believe in a god. Assuming he doesn't make up gods to explain natural occurances.

I respect your opinion as well, and I have read many of your threads. Pretty cool ideas in them.

I agree. I just live in the physical and not think about what else there could be, for whatever reason it doesn't really interest me. But I do agree there could be something else, though I don't think it is an intelligent higher power.

Appreciated.

You said:

It's hard to explain my opinion on it, but if you can imagine someone who is born on an island with no contact with humans. He will be an atheist without knowing it, because he will not believe in a god.

I agree to a point. He would be an atheist without knowing it because he wont be exposed to religion. But what if while being isolated on that island he senses a certain vastness in which all things are intimate with because the vastness is everywhere and finds himself humble to it?

Quantum physics states that all things are interconnected. The essence of the higher religions states that everything is one. Could we then say that there is a chance he is religious without knowing it ( he has no way of comparing his philosophy) because he is humble to the vastness of nature? That he respects nature as something both seen and unseen and beyond his comprehension?

I am not trying to promote any particular religion here but just show how it is quite natural for man to ponder and philosophize over deep and meaningful questions and come to conclusion that there is a higher force which he himself is part of.

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)


Again a factor we have to take in is the genetic/physiological/psychological make up of the man on the island. Is he naturally inclined to a spiritual/philosophical outlook or not?

He may not be an unnecessary skeptical atheist or a gullible believer but the rationality of both. Because he hasnt been conditioned by civilization he may be very intuitive like a little child because he hasnt been taught language and therefore doesnt require religion because he is in a state of awareness that religion is used to attain anyway.

It is a complex scenario. But it would make for an interesting experiment. However realistically speaking he would die in a matter of moments because he wouldn't be raised or protected.

He may be like an animal child without rational awareness to philosophize over anything.

Who knows.

I agree with your entire post, I think my example works as long as you don't think too far into it.

So if we were born on an island without any influence to shape our views, it seems we'd end up how we are now.

There is a difference between your 'man on a island' and modern day Atheists. Atheists today know the stories and ideas of the existence of gods and choose not to believe in them. The man on the island never had a choice...he is an atheist by default.

Your right in saying that the man on the island has no belief but all the atheists of today do because they know of the idea of a god and choose to believe that the idea is false.

UGGHHHH! That doesn't even make sense! Are you like the Hitler to the Atheists or something?

I was just using it as an example to show how it doesn't require faith or belief to be Atheist, because it's the default.

1. Science does not support the existence of an afterlife or a God based on observed Universal laws. The beleiver cannot provide evidence of a God or an Afterlife.

2. This resides in the brain and can be affected by physical means for example mind altering substances. The point is is that their is a lot of evidence suggesting that our conscioussness is merely a biproduct of bio-chemical/bio-electric reactions like the rest of the brain functions.

3. Science is not limited to five senses we have tools in the modern age that reveal a lot to us.

4. The math works for the big bang so we know how it began and how old the Universe is roughly anyway.

5. Why would you?

No I just believe that there is a natural tendency for man to become religious. It is natural for some men to humble themselves to an a power they believe exists but is unseen with the naked eye.

Science cannot prove either way. It is a matter of faith. For science to say there is no afterlife they must be able to prove it.



This is often a mistake of people who support science. There is ABOSULTELY NO PROOF THAT CONSCIOUSNESS RESIDES IN THE BRAIN. Be my guest and tell me otherwise but consciousness has not been located yet.

To say the brain creates consciousness is as much as an act of faith than it is to say consciousness is the soul because consciousness hasnt been proven by science to be a by-product of the physical brain.



Yes and these tools still only show us things within the five sense realm.



I'll let Einstein answer this one:

As far as the laws od mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.

There is no outstanding proof that the universe was caused by the big bang.



Because science cannot dispose of the observer they cannot prove that the universe exists independently of consciousness.

But if that man on the island was ever to come into contact with other humans and explain that his outlook on life was the superior one (because he thinks it is closer to truth) then it does become an act of faith unless of course he can outright prove it.

Sorry about yesterday, BNT. Damned brain must of had to many elephant beers. Thanks for not kicking my a... about it. Very sorry, lad.

Take care

The reverse side also has a reverse side ~ Japanese Proverb


nn23

I think many of them class a belief a religious faith....so not the same

They hold a belief that there is no God...but they cannot be classed as religious, to do that you need to follow some sort of diety

I don't know if thats scientifically proven, but I know that its natural for humans to LIE.

Their own idealism of atheism can be idolized enough that it can fall in under worship with a religious zeal.

umm sorry I disagree...it can never ever be classed remotely as religious in any way shape or form...ever....

The whole point in being religious is to follow a diety..........not the complete opposite

Buddhism doesnt believe in following a religious deity and it is a religion.

But it has a idol, Buddha.

Buddha never made himself an idol to worship. My point is that idolization comes in many forms like nationalism, technology, morals etc.To say that atheistism could never be subject to idolization is just naive.

The people that followed him DID make him an idol


Atheists dont do eother of that...therefore CANT be classed as a religious faith....impossible

But he didnt do it himself.



Hitler and stalin was worshipped with religious zeal. It isnt impossible. You are just naive. Atheism may not be worpshipped as a transcendental religion but worshipped with just as enthusiasm. It is possible.

You sure love to split hairs brave....Atheism is not recognized as a religion period

I have been gone from this page for months and you STILL dwell around this word game

I never said that it is recognized as a religion. I simply outlined that it could be idolized for what it is in itself like a religion.

So it could be worshipped with a religious zeal (the way the communist philosophy was in Russia) and fanaticism and still not be recognized as a spiritual religion. The point is idolization in the athiest philosophy could be done like any other and from what I have seen in unexplained mysteries, it is so.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica



For our enquiry into the use of words can be equally regarded as an enquiry into the nature of the facts which they describe. (Ayer)

I dont think you understand words enough.

Oh yea, kinna like football...well it is taken seriously, and they idolize the players looking at it like that, is more understanding

But I still can't understand what an atheist has to worship, UNLESS you are talking about worshiping the IDEA that there is no God???

*shrugs*

Yes, worship the idea that there is no God.

Worshiping an idea.........hmmm i must admit, that is a new one lol but hey its your opinion in a way I guess it does make some sense

There is nothing new about it. It is as old as the hills. Like worshipping the "ideal" communism. Also Christianity is also just an "idea" that is worshipped.

When I said it was a new one...it was NEW to me...I had never heard of anyone say - worshiping an idea of something

nothing wrong with that lol

My bad then. Sorry.

Its ok lol Although i forgot to add before...i have heard of people saying, they are thrilled with an idea or they LOVE the idea of something

I think it would be safe to say that most atheists with any form of intelligence must admit of course that it is a beleif system created as a direct opposite. For example a strong Theist holds the thought that there is a 100% probabilty that God exists-C.G.Jung stated "I do not believe God exists, I know"
Whereas a true Atheist would state" I know there is no God with the same conviction as Jung'knows' there is one"

Excerpt taken from the God Delusion-Richard Dawkins

Wow. Someone who actually understands where I'm coming from. I concur. Atheism is a belief system (like any other ideal it has the potential to be organized). And in order for it to be fact (I mean the same for religion too) they must be able to show or prove it.

And if they cannot not but know deep down they are right via conscience/intuition then they arnt really gonna care whether others believe them or not. Also someone who knows deep down that God does not or does exist wont try to push or press it onto others for the psychological basic that: The more you try and change someone the more they stay the same.

I know my political correction here is out of sync but as a general rule it stands strong.

For an atheist to prove that God does not exist in my eyes they would have to have some kind of enlightening experience that confirms this directly and then in order for it to be proven or "seen other than believed" have to lay down systematically (or otherwise) the means to that experience.

To me this would be the only way of proving God does not exist.

Unless there are better ways which I havnt thought yet. My mind is open.

Hence the emphasis that you must experience for yourself to know.



Yeah but until you experience it for oneself then how are you to know? The nature of consciousness isnt physical that you can physically grasp it. Can you tell me what consciousness looks like, smells like, tastes like, sounds like or feels like?

But you know you have it because of direct experience. All that God is according to the mystics is refined consciousness.

Just because some atheists say that atheism isn't a belief system doesn't mean that other atheists can't feel upset by having their belief system challenged.

You make it sound like all atheists are exactly the same.

Your logical premise is faulty because you incorrectly assign an attribute to the entire set of atheists and based on that.....

Well, I'm sure you already know this

This thread is challenging those who claim atheism isnt a belief system.



It is a logical premise if i were to consider all atheists the same but i dont.

I would also like to point out that there are others like myself who do not believe in god, but also do not consider ourselves atheists. We are INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS. Sometimes living in our life, in the very present moment, whether its in house chores or as simple as a walk, is truly living. Happiness is in the NOW. It's to LIVE and do the things that I truly want to do with my life. My problem with atheism, or any organized religion is the prejudices that follow, such as a prejudice toward another religion or gay people and trying to force those beliefs onto others. Although I do no believe in god, I believe in the good of people, regardless of their religion. To be honest, I've never had a problem with any Christian or even Islamic (I had an Islamic friend). I am respectful of their beliefs, and they are respectful of mine. Only once was when I was 14 that my friend's Catholic mother told me that I was going to hell if I didn't believe in their religion. I simply responded that if I helped cure a village of malaria, or built a house in Mexico for a family for free, would I still go to hell? What if I even followed all 10 of their commandments? Her mother was always kind to me nonetheless. I wish that everyone would stop hating each other, thats all.

This was a beautiful post Athena22 ...sorry, i just had to say ...you really moved me, i like your attitude

NICE ONE!
nn23