How can atheists be persecuted for their atheist beliefs when they say they have none (beliefs that is)?



How can we disrespect something that doesnt exist? Most atheists illogically put that atheism isnt a belief system. If it isnt a belief system then how can it be to be disrepsected? How can you disrespect a belief/concept that isnt there, which atheism claims to be?

If we respect atheism as a belief system then will the atheists admit that it is a belief system?

If they claim it isnt then there is no atheist beliefs/concepts to disrepect and therefore how can they claim that their outlook(belief) is being disrespected?

Or we could say it is the belief in the non-existence of God. If atheists say that they simply lack belief in God then what is left to disrespect them?

We cant say that they are 'bad' because they disbelieve in God because the atheists themselves claim that the belief is lacking for them to even consider disbelief.

Therefore please define and clarify what atheism is. Because if it isnt a belief system of any type then it cant be attacked as a belief system. Therefore an atheist cannot say that they are ever being harassed for their beliefs because they dont have any to harass.

To say "I am an atheist" and then say "Atheism isnt a belief or concept" is just stupid. But no atheist can say I am being disrespectful here because Atheism isnt a belief or concept that can be disrespected and this is by their own admission.


Also what about atheists who claim that it is disrespectful to to consider their precious 'ism' a concept or belief?

Is atheism a belief system or not? I strongly hold via logic that atheism is a full flegded belief system (not necessarily an organized one). Anyone have comments?

I thought it was a disbelief!!


fullywired

Same. But apparently I am wrong. It isnt a disbelief in God but a lack of Belief in God.

This makes sense for someone who has never come into contact with the concept God but for the people who post on unexplained mysteries and most of the civilized world have been exposed to it enough to consciously disbelieve.
To say that I lack the belief in God and not disbelieve in God when one has had much exposure to the various religious/irreligious concepts of God would be ignorant and a lie to myself.

I liked this.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dis


nn23

I think it comes because people misuse the word belief and don't know all it's definitions. a belief isn't just spiritual or pertaining to God.

athiesm can be disrespected in ways. when religion has it's hands in politics and changes or makes laws related to it that affect all. a religious belief shouldn't be forced on anyone. Like abortion. claimed by christians to be murder yet they have no problem with the death penalty. hypocrisy.

I don't think athiesm is a belief in the same way religion is. Since it basically doesn't believe in something that has no proof. but it can , like religion can , be disrespected.



be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Atheism is a belief system...to be an atheist is to believe that there are no gods.

A belief is to think that something is true when it has yet to be proven. Although no evidence suggests that a god exists there also isn't any evidence suggesting that one doesn't exist.

People will say that Atheism is a 'disbelief' but I could say the same thing about Christianity. Atheism is the disbelief of the existence of a god and Christianity is the disbelief of the Big Bang.

Everybody is part Atheist...there will always be at least one god that you believe doesn't exist.

Can they disprove God?Well written.

just because people believe in God and religions exists ( and the concepts thereof) doesn't mean God actually exists.

If we go by physical proof about the existence of God - there is none. A feeling isn't proof. sorry but it isn't. you get the same rush and elation doing certain drugs.( so I hear )

people used to believe the sun revolved around the earth , were sure of it , and killed those who said it was the other way around.

about as much as you can prove there is a God. you can't.


and a feeling isn't proof.

I know. But the concept of God does. Therefore most people cant say they have lack of belief but actually outright disbelieve.



Direct experience is the ultimate proof. Where is the physical evdience for consciousness?

Also we dont live in a physical universe. Quantum physics have shown that atoms are vastly immaterial.



I know.

Hence it is an act of faith either way to believe or disbelieve in God.

Your right. We cannot prove or disprove the existence of any god.

An Atheist assumes that a god doesn't exist because there is no evidence to suggest that one does. A lack of evidence doesn't mean that something isn't true or real. So an atheist assumes that no evidence will ever be found to prove the existence of a god.

The act of assuming something is the act of believing.

A feeling is only proof to that one person. To that person it is evidence. Although that feeling cannot be counted as evidence to anybody else. That feeling isn't proof though, even to that one person, because that person has no real way of discovering what that feeling is truly about. People will say "I have a feeling that there is a god" but that feeling could be anything.

Agreed. The only way to get out of it and not believe is to either not know of the concept of "god or no god" or truly not care either way.

You can only prove it to yourself via first hand experience.



Ya



Hence why all the great spiritual mahatmas emphasize that God can only truly be known via msytical experience. That scriptures and such are only a means to an end.

Hence the classic sayings like "look within". God/Nirvana/Tao can be proven but you have to experience it to know it.

The truth indeed has never been preached by the Buddha, seeing that one has to realize it within oneself. --- Sutralamkara

"What is the ultimate teaching of the Buddhism?"
"You wont understand it until you have it."

--- Shih-t'ou

Yes but it isn't proof to us. We don't really know if any of these 'spiritual leaders' reached god, enlightenment, or any mystical state. We can only believe that they did. For all we know they didn't reach a 'higher state' they may have just reached a 'different state'.

Since you and I have yet to reach any 'higher state' then we are only believing in it. Even if we do theres always the possibility that we only think we are in a
higher state but in truth we just went insane somewhere down the line lol.

I've always thought it to be one.

But then again, I believe that everything we do is dictated by a series of belief systems - whether it be which deity to worship, which music we like or what to buy when we're out shopping.

Most people feel a peaceful vibe around enlightened Gurus. You are right that belief and faith is required. But the faith can be proven to oneself and that ultimately is all that matters in the end.



That is a possibility. But I have to go with my intuition that such a higher state exists and trust those who have experienced such a state.

Let me grace you with a quote from the Bhagavad Gita:

Man is made by his belief. As he believes so he is.

Belief, trust, intuition...thats faith. This 'peaceful vibe' doesn't necessarily mean anything. Lets say I personally feel peaceful around this guy...does that mean that he is enlightened or he is using some very nice perfume?

Yes ultimately in the end it only matters to us personally...but everything you believe cannot be deemed as evidence to others. Since an Atheist obviously doesn't experience the same things you have he cannot use the same reasoning as you do.

I don't have a title that defines my beliefs but I don't like to assume. I like to look into all possible options and angles. When I have looked into all of these options and angles and still don't have a answer then I stop there and just say "I don't know".

It is just a general indicator. From someone who was enlightened himself:

What are the marks of a real teacher (sadguru)?

Ramana Maharshi: Steady abidence in the Self, looking at all with an equal eye, unshakable courage at all times, in places and circumstances, etc.

In another interview he also mentions the atmosphere created by the person.



When you reach the end of what you should know, you will be at the beginning of what you should sense. --- Kahlil Gibran

the concept of God. originally man worshipped the Gods like the sun and moon. literally. that was their proof - pointing to the sky. and you couldn't have told them otherwise at the time.

same applies here. it's just gotten more cerebral. Quantum physics still does not prove an existance of God.

I do believe in God , only out of that 'personal feeling' yet even I realise if I am honest that God really may not exist.

I found this interesting -

To theologians in the 3rd century B.C., when Ecclesiastes is thought to have been written, that passage spoke to the idea that while all of us are divinely inspired to look for God, none of us are remotely capable of fully comprehending what we are seeking. Scientists in the 21st century may not disagree, provided that "hearts of men" is replaced with "genes of men." The key for those researchers is finding those genes.
Chief of gene structure at the National Cancer Institute, Hamer not only claims that human spirituality is an adaptive trait, but he also says he has located one of the genes responsible, a gene that just happens to also code for production of the neurotransmitters that regulate our moods. Our most profound feelings of spirituality, according to a literal reading of Hamer's work, may be due to little more than an occasional shot of intoxicating brain chemicals governed by our DNA. "I'm a believer that every thought we think and every feeling we feel is the result of activity in the brain," Hamer says.

"I think we follow the basic law of nature, which is that we're a bunch of chemical reactions running around in a bag."

Could spirituality be nothing more than a chemical response ? it's possible.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101041025/

If I say that there is not a colony of 20ft tall invisible fairies living in my garden, is that a belief system?

If I say that stepping on the cracks in the pavement won't mean your granny drops dead, is that a belief system?

If I say that Dr Who is a fictional character, played by an actor called David Tennant, is that a belief system?

If I say that Zeus/YHWH/Vishnu/Ra/Odin etc etc do not actually exist, is that a belief system

I have the feeling that if I admit it's non-existence that I am lying to myself.



But they still cant find consciousness in the chemicals. Science cannot prove consciousness yet without consciousness there is no science.

Take this from Professor Stanislav Grof:

"Traditional science holds the belief that organic matter and life grew from the chmical ooze of the primeval ocean soley through random interactions of atoms and molecules. Similarly, it is argued that matter was organized into living cells, and cells into complex multicellular organisms with central nervous systems, soley by accident and 'natural selection'. And somehow, along with these explanations, the assumptions that consciousness is a by-product of material processes occuring in the brain has become one of the most important metaphysical tenets of the Western worldview.

"As modern science discovers the profound interactions between creative intelligence and all levels of reality, this simplistic image of the universe becomes increasingly untenable. The probability that human consciousness and our infinitely complex universe could have come into existence through random interactions of inert matter has aptly been compared to that of a tornado blowing through a junkyard and accidentily assembling a 747 jumbo jet."

Not muchof a belief system but it is a belief and since all beliefs or disbeliefs are structured in some way or another it is or part of a belief system.



Again it either is or part and parcel of one.



For me it is because I dont know who david tennant is to be able to say directly that he plays a fictional charatcer in Dr who



Yes because you believe in your beliefs about them which is their non-existence.

Yes because you believe in the non-exisetnce

you say you have the 'feeling' if you admit non existance you'ld be lying to yourself. But feelings aren't facts or proof. Honesty in putting your feelings aside and viewing the subject objectively proves otherwise. There may be no God.

consciousness , found or not , is not proof of God.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

would you say dolphins have consciousness? they are aware of themselves and others. self awareness being the seat of consciousness.

I am going to use a post of mine....

The problem with religion is that it wants to save us all. Religion should have done that a long time ago, and it's chances of doing any such thing is diminishing day by day. So what did I see from religion? A f..... idiot blessing f....... tanks. That's right blessing f...... tanks. People were killing each other in Bosnia and now it's in Baghdad. And I'm supposed to respect religion? Well now, as things are I respect religion anyway. Listen, try talking to people in a way people understand instead of trying to put them down with sentences they do not understand. If you really need to put yourself above others, then find another way. Creeps used to talk latin or french to ordinary people so they could not understand what they where talking about many years ago - complaint rejected. I don't hate ya, just feel sorry for ya

I think you need to distinguish between "belief system" and "religious belief system". The former can include believing in the sky being blue, conservative and/or liberal politics being correct, and so forth. Atheism is a belief system, but it is not a religious belief system, simply because it is defined specifically as the absence of a belief in deity or the like.

Part of the problem is that I believe legally, in the United States, Atheism is counted as a 'religious belief' in order to prevent employers from discriminating against atheists based on their atheism, under US anti-discrimination laws.

Don't get me wrong, I love people no matter who they are. I just want us all to get along together. Forget the past, and look to the future

EASY...they can and DO get attacked for saying they don't believe in a God or any God....so therefore, some (and I mean SOME) religious people will try and attack as much as possible, this can been seen as persecution.... It's their belief that there is no real evidence and no God <---------------once attacked for it..then YA, they are persecuted for their beliefs
They get persecuted for NOT following God..and NOT believing in him....its no different than a religious person being persecuted for following and believing in a God

So in reality there is NO DIFFERENCE


VOLA!!!!!!

In a sense religious people created atheists. If it wasn't for them coming up with the god concept, atheists wouldn't have had to give themselves a title.

This is true

I agree.

Indeed.

i have said that too many times...

Simon says...lets all agree..














Simon says.........STOP LOL


*man im bored cant ya tell*

So are also willing to admit on the same basis that there may not be consciousness?



What about the mystics that say consciousness experienced in its most refined level is God? Then consciousness which science cannot prove could very well be the consciousness they cannot prove. Hence the mystics are proof that God or some high absract level of consciousness exists but that it can only be proven via direct experience.



I have a feeling they have consciousness because we cant scienfitically prove that they do because be cannot isloate consciousness and test it.

Im not a conventional creationist. I myself agree that concept of evolution is possible. However I disagree that the universe is a just a random happening. I agree that underlying the universe we percieve with the senses is a state of consciousness that is infinite and is our real nature and to get back to this real nature is the goal and aim of all beings. This goal is the quest for truth which must be approached with non-vilence and endless patience and compassion. To rediscover who we are is the highest happiness and greatest science.

The aim of human life is to know thyselves. --Socrates

We are more than flesh but consciousness is that is unbounded by any form of demarcation. And this ancient wisdom does make sense so far at least since science cannot prove the brain creates consciousness.

They are evils of oraganized religion. There is a vast difference between personal spiritual religion and institutionalized religion. The origin of religion is was actually used as a tool to know thyself.

Whatever a persons overall beleif system is their religious belief system. One does not require a deity to have a religious belief system like certain buddhist branches. Part of my summation of what religion is goes in these two quotes:

Your daily life is your temple and your religion. --- Kahlil Gibran


.. True religion is that relationship, in accordance with reason and knowledge, which man establishes with the infinite world around him, and which binds his life to that infinity and guides his actions .. and leads to the practical rules of the law: do to others as you would have them do unto you.
(Leo Tolstoy, Confessions)

The essence of any religion lies solely in the answer to the question: why do I exist, and what is my relationship to the infinite universe that surrounds me?
.. It is impossible for there to be a person with no religion (i.e. without any kind of relationship to the world) as it is for there to be a person without a heart. He may not know that he has a religion, just as a person may not know that he has a heart, but it is no more possible for a person to exist without a religion than without a heart. (Leo Tolstoy, 1879)

Atheism is a structured (personal or organized) belief system in which to relate to the world. Hence it is a religion. Singing hyms to Jesus on a sunday and praying five times a day are not the only things that qualify as religious.

Everyone is guilty of having a relationship with the world and a belief system (whether conscious or unconscious of it) that has developed from it. And that system be it a personal one or one greatly influenced by an organization is to me what religion is.





But many atheists in here claim that not only is atheism a religious belief system but also not a belief system as well. Which is really quite absurd.

Time doesnt exist. It is a mental concept we posit on change. But I agree one hundred percent that we should all get along together.

I agree. But my point is if an atheist claims they their atheism isnt a belief then how can they say they are being put down for their beliefs?

Then history may of shown a reverse. Believers could have had to give themselves a title because the atheists had no higher power in which to humble themselves to

I could careless personally that people who can't disagree also can't get along. I have been attacked for being an atheist, atheists are seen as immoral and untrustworthy. I have found that atheists are more or less freethinkers who put their stock in nature and science as opposed to god and religion.

Just respect the person... You have made it quite clear that you have no respect for people who don't agree with you.


I have been told by many that I was a worthless human being for being an atheist or that i was going to hell etc.

To have faith in something leaves a margin of error, to know something and except it as fact leaves none.


Many do consider atheists bad, so much so infact they have become the least trusted groups of people in the USA.

It's not about attacking atheism it is about the individuals who are discriminated again'st due to stereotyping.

Some may consider it a beleif but not me i view as many do that atheism is common knowledge.


It varies from person to person, in order for something to be a 'system' it needs to have structure. There is a big difference between what some consider common knowledge, beleifs and beleif systems.

I personally feel that opinions will vary from person to person, this will cause a debate which will go for a few pages and if we are lucky maybe a flame war.

Good post. However for atheism to be considered common knowledge and not a belief you'll have to prove it. Otherwise your atheism is just as much a faith as christianity.

You have to realize that alot of atheists don't care how you want to define their "belief", "non-belief", or whatever you want to call it. It's not like we are born with a religion or a belief in a god. We simply don't have either.

What's funny is how people like you always want to talk about atheism like it's the arch-enemy of religion or something.

And your point?

I only have to prove it if I am trying to convince others which I don't. For me I accept the scientific and most logical answer to me as fact which no god and no afterlife. I just never really think about it and continue living my life until my eventual demise.

My point is it doesn't matter how you define it, it is what it is, a lack of belief in a higher power. How do you have a problem with that?

Fair enough. However you misuse science here to back your claim.

1. Science cannot prove an independent objective universe.

2. Science cannot prove the fundamental of our existence which is consciousness.

3. Science is limited to the five senses which science itself only says reveals a infintesimal amount of matter (less than one percent, ninety five percent of all the matter is estimated to be dark matter)

4. Science cannot explain why there should even be a universe.

5. Science cannot dispose of the observer.