I have been married two times and my husband and I have our struggles. I refer to him as the "keeper of the dragon" he refers to me as "All Four Seasons" that song by Sting.

We tend to do the marriage tango of I love you I hate you I can't live without you several times a year.

We didn't get married in a church and so I'm wondering if those who HAVE gotten married in the church can tell me how the sacrament of marriage means something different rather than just a "commitment"


My husband wrote this quote in our wedding scrapbook





What say you?

I've been married for a 16.5 years now. We dated for 5 years before we got married. By the time we got married we had spoken quite a bit about what we wanted our relationship to be like, we had also had plenty of time to consider whether this was the person each of us wanted to spend the rest of our lives with.

The Sacrament of Marriage to me has nothing to do with the ceremony we participated in or the words the Pastor said, or the things she and I repeated, it has to do with the complete dedication we have to each other.

My wife is my best friend, she has seen me at my worst and my best, and I have been there for her through her personal worst and her best also. We got married not simply because we were attracted to each other, but because even after talking with each other, meeting each other's families, spending almost every possible day with each other for 5 years, and spending quite a bit of time away from each other due to military training, we found that we actually liked who the other person was. We knew that we would both grow (we were Seniors in high school when we met and I was 23 and she was 22 when we got married), that our likes and dislikes would change, but we made a commitment to each other, we love each other dearly. Even after almost 22 years together, we still enjoy each other's company, we go out on dates, we love to spend time together and the differences in our personalities help us balance each other out instead of getting in our way.

The Sacrament of our marriage couldn't be more important if we had married at Windsor Castle, and would be no less so if we had married in an empty field just the two of us pledging ourselves to each other and to God.

I don't think it matters where you marry, or if you do. I was married to my husband long before we actually tied the knot (civil ceremony).

I was thinking of that too Shadow, because the modern institution of marriage, I don't think would be the way it was back 2000 years ago. I don't see how its living in sin to just spend the rest of your life with someone.

Is there a sacredness to it for you?

Great post Iams that was just beautiful, what a beautiful dedication to your wife.

I don't really think a signed document really means marrage as long you love her she is your Queen and she loves you as her King you are married in the sight of the Almighty

no priest can tell I if am married to I Queen

We moved in together five years before we got married, but we actually felt married long before me moved in together (we'd already known each other for five years by that time). Our relationship is sacred. We are connected, always have been, and the bond we have gets stronger every day. We've had our ups and downs, in the sense that everyone does - money worries or moving or a change of job, etc. - but our relationship with each other is always a source of strength for both of us, and a source of happiness. We are soulmates. Now I've gone and got mushy.

Good for the mushy

I think its nice to see how devoted people can be to their soul mate.

Brava!

I'll let you know in about a week!

Oh DAYUM

Congratulations


You need to come back to UM and throw a cyber bouquet in the chat room

Congratulations!!!

I will!



Thank you!

I was married almost twenty years. I was glad I got married, makes raising kids easier. The wedding and the paper was just a pony show. We got married cause our hearts and minds were bound together, we didn't need a paper or a God to join us.

Legal marriage is a contract between two people or families. In some cultures men and women are put together by their parents. Sometimes there is a bride price paid. Marriage is sometimes an enslavement of women. First they are the property of their Father, when they marry they become the property of their husband. Thats the way it was in the US until the women's movement, starting with women getting the Vote.

I feel marriage should be the joining of two equal people who are lovers and friends. Friendship is very important in marriage sometimes it is what keeps the marriage together.

I am not sure I'll marry again under a legal document. It's great when your younger and raising kids, but when you get older there are disadvantages.

Friendship is very important. My Husband and I did not fall in love, we had children, then we stayed together to raise the children. We've been together now for just a little over 15 years and we were married last December.

I can say that I love him totally and utterly for the person he is and the people we are when we are together. He is my strongest supporter and the brightest light in my Universe.

I said to him just last night, I feel sorry for those people who meet, fall in love, get married and then later fall out of love. He agreed. It is so much better to meet, get married and then fall in love.

Mind you, you've gotta be real freakin lucky for that to happen.


And congratulations Falco and Girty. I'm pleased that you're finally making an honest man of him Girty.

Only in a country where you get benefits from being married does marriage actually matter at all.

Two people who love each other can go on through life without getting married and still love each other. They can consider themselves Husband and Wife is they damn well please. And the quote is off. Marriage does not carry those benefits...only true love or the "urgent" love. When I say "urgent" love I mean the two teenagers that think they will get married and travel the world then soon find out life just isn't that simple. True love is when you criticize your lover, but only in a way to benefit them. Ie. if your husband is overweight, warn him of it. Tell him flat out he needs to lose weight because you don't want him to die of a heart attack.

You can replace that scenario with many others.



Marriage in the Middle East and China/Japan/etc. are usually made out to protect the family. A father wants his daughter to marry a man that can support her, not a man that she deeply loves who can barely skate by in life.

We were civilly married but decided to do it again with a priest.
Just something for the kids to look when were not around for them.
You only do it once and too late if you do it later.
The memories of younger years are more important to see than the money
you spent on weddings.
But it doesn't really matter if you marry or not.
Just don't loose it, you can never go back to the past.
We've been together for more than 30 years.

Any one hear of "Covenant Marriages"? I heard about then in Louisiana I think. I'll look it up.

I think that UNFORTUNATELY, marriage is taken way too lightly. People do it and undo it at the drop of a hat. I mean, it's MEANT to be a lifelong partnership. So my take on it is, THINK long and hard before you do it, and prepare to STAY THE COURSE!

Now, if religion makes you think about it long and hard and take it more serious, good deal. Go for it. It's meant to be FOREVER, not just til you get bored or wanna move on.

Here is a link. http://marriage.about.com/od/covenantmarri.../lacovenant.htm

It's almost like a "fundamental" wedding. Interesting.

Here's a weird take on marriage. And yes, someone will probably call it bitter, but sue me. I'm happy for those that are happy, great, good job, lucky you. Those of us that are unlucky just have to soldier on and make it up as we go. Guess which group I belong to.
First of all, the 'covenant before God' aspect of marriage ceremonies is just to put God's stamp of approval on things. Just a sign of faith by the participants, a show for the family, nothing more, nothing less.
Now to the idea of marriage itself: it is one of societal control. People are easier to manage, and less likely to be revolutionaries, or mystics, or any other kind of pain in the butt to the ruling class, if they have the responsibilities of home on their mind more than anything. So we're conditioned from birth, and have been for thousands of years, that we HAVE to find someone, or many if you're a polygamist, to share our life with. Gay or straight doesn't even really matter, either. The idea is taught to all and thus the huge fight over gay marriage. Marriage is learned behavior, plain and simple.
And to counter the two obvious arguments:
1) Organized religion itself is a tool of societal control. Thus the sacraments it preaches are the same.
2) Can't be nature. I know too many people who struggle with fighting their natural urges to be completely amoral animals when it comes to the opposite sex. Some can control it when needed, like I do, but others fail miserably. It simply isn't in their nature to be monogamous. Not too mention, that some of us are so strange that no one person can give us everything we need emotionally or spiritually. Basically, humanity is too diverse for much of anything to be nature. Most of it is learned behavior.

I believe the sanctity of marriage derives from the commitment between the couple. The bible called it a sacrament because it was likened to the union between Christ & Church, i.e. according to my understanding, total love & utter commitment to do one's best to make one's partner as happy as can be. The church is only a witness. My husband & I came from different countries & we both tried to include our families, so we ended up with a very bizarre arrangement. We had an engagement party in my country for my family & friends, then we had to go through 2 civil contracts ( one from each country), followed by a second engagement party in his country , then finally a church wedding . I used to joke that undoing all these contracts etc., was so complicated, anything would be easier than getting a divorce! We never in all the years of our marriage felt a remote need to consider divorce. We were best friends & lovers. My husband was someone with whom i could think aloud, each had the total trust & respect of the other. We enjoyed each other's company, had lots of fun ..with plenty of romance! I guess what I'm trying to say is that marriage is a sacrament because of the genuine commitment & love between the spouses, it is the love that makes it sacred & not just the words & paperwork .

Wow, true that I had always thought you were more around the 16 - 18 years old age group. I guess that's because of your inquisitive nature.

As for marriage I see this as nothing more than an unnecessary formalization of a relationship, I tend to think a lot of people get married purely because it is the convention, although if you belonged to a religion where it is of a particular significance I could see why you would be doing this to appease your 'god'.

Guess you suck. Give it time, maybe things will get better.
As for the covenant marriage, it IS different, in that you waive your right to a no-fault divorce. It makes getting divorced much more difficult, because it requires one party to sue the other and show just cause for a divorce.

I think this is extremely important. there are people I love that I don't necessarily like. But to love someone AND like them -- woo hoo !

marry your friend and you can't go wrong.

...to give the party that needed comfort and security, to sanctify this particular vanity, so to speak. And if the marriage does take place, then no doubt, it's meant to be; there are many ways to stop a marriage, let's not forget. BUT, marriage has a big price, it's not a play thing, I'm sure everyone will agree. One will definitely grow from it, regardless of everything. And like life, it's not always bad because again, one grows from this experience. "...through sickness and in health..."

I don't think God even cares if you get married-with-ceremony, or not..., but hopefully, your faith in God will solidify your character for you to have a deeper, loving, understanding, and most of all, caring persona; in short, a true human being. You will need all these attributes (especially the caring part) and God's help (of course!) when hard times hit, and those are always guaranteed to happen. Caring is very important because it the most conscious act of your humanity, in that you want to do it, go through the dealing part of fixing the problems. Being "married," in the end, is a state of mind, and in most cases, a human being is actually "married" to more than one person.

And ahh, the children..., that whole scene is a completely different topic altogether. I don't even want to go there because I grew up in a big family, and I mean HUGE.



You make it sound so condensed, uncomplicated, and unreal. In a make believe world, perhaps... But not here on planet Earth, no doubt.



Sex is a minute part of marriage, especially as you grow older, at least this is what I gathered from my clients when I was a social worker. Having people around to really be there for you, therefore, is the most important thing in one's life, be it in a marriage or not, especially if both (the husband and the wife) are getting old and sickly. It's always good to volunteer to help the aged because you will definitely get to glimpse certain futures.

Romantic love changes over time. And time has that maturity factor going for it. To ally one's self wisely is fruitful, indeed.

Marriage is a tax break thats all it is if you dont have commitment before marriage then its just as valuble a paper as toilet paper.

It is nice to see so many happy marriages on the forum because there is an old saying an I have observed it to be true which is "In most marriages ,one loves the other is loved"


fullywired

I have seen the same. The Grand Passion, where both truly love each other is very rare.

That's right a "marriage made in Heaven" and there are not many of those


fullywired

I haven't ever seen it in my life. That kind of marriage relationship, I've only heard about. True, I love my wife and she loves me but that complete indepth feeling for oneanother is something I've never experienced. There are no marriages made in heaven there are only people who adjust better than others to their partners. So I agree "The Grand Passion, where both truly love each other is very rare."

Marriages are made in Heaven



So is thunder and lightning!

The reason for the concept of marriage IS simple. We could have just as easily developed as a poly-amorous society but somewhere along the line some religious nut -- I'm fairly convinced it was a priestess of some sort LOL -- got the idea of one man - one woman, and here we be. I'm not saying to live your life alone, or without support -- I would be crazy after the last three months if it wasn't for my friends -- just that marriage is a tool of societal control. People are easier to manage if they have responsibilities at home, or do it in fear of eternal damnation and torture, or for any other number of non-romantic reasons.
Now, if you are in a relationship with someone and genuinely love them -- note that word: 'genuinely' -- then great, kudos, but why wander to the altar? Sure, you can say "Oh, I'll love them forever," but there is no other element, creature or concept on earth as mutable as a human being. You may love that person in that moment, or that year or that decade, but you will change and that other person will change, as that is the most important thing that time brings: utter change. Hence, to get married in the this moment, you are essentially making a promise for a lifetime in a relative moment of emotion (yes, it is a moment of emotion, regardless of how long you have been with the person). A moment for a life? That trade doesn't make much sense as to why it is even an institution, unless you consider as a tool of societal control.
If one can disconnect themselves from the emotional connotations of the word, then that fact is fairly simple to see.

One man one woman takes incredible energy and devotion. If its so simple to you then why have two of your marriages failed?

Not being a wench but just something you might want to consider!

I understand what you're saying, but thinking about all that is what has brought me to the stated conclusion above.
First of all: Exactly about the energy part. That energy could otherwise go to causing problems for those in charge, hence why marriage is useful as a societal control.
Secondly, my marriages failed because my spouses were apparently not in that sizable part of the population who easily accept the idea of eternal monogamy.
And truth be told, perhaps neither am I.

No offense, but I strongly disagree with the statement, "there are no manners to keep up" and "no real criticism". Marriage is a decision that between you and this other person, the two of you are going to create a tiny segment of the universe where the values that you both believe in RULE. This requires compromise, respect and self discipline. Respect and self discipline are the very definition of manners.

If your partner does something that annoys you, your vow means that you have promised to control yourself and to try to be FAIR and JUST. Casting your ego aside, is your partner justified in his/her attitude? If he /she IS justified, you should suck it up and apologize. Even if he/she ISN'T justified, your partner is still the person you've acknowledged as Your-Partner-In-This-World, so watch your manners and control your temper. The person you've made this kind of promise to is worthy of your respect. If you don't respect the person you're sharing your life with then.... what is wrong with you? You're degrading yourself and insulting your partner.

Your partner is the one person in the entire world who is MOST worthy of your good manners and dispassionate honesty. Passion and lust aren't the things that prove love. Self discipline is the thing that proves love.

You know that old quote, "Love means never having to say you're sorry"? That's wrong, wrong, wrong. Love means continuously seeking the honest truth and having the humility to admit you're wrong. "Never having to say you're sorry", is an ego-centric, undisciplined adolescent fantasy.

I think Nirvana is trying to look at marriage in an anthropological point of view. In that point of view it is entirely askew. No man is meant to be with one woman, we're designed to help make babies and women are designed to give birth to them. This may seem crude and rather frank...but it's very true. The ideal of "one true love" just isn't true. I haven't been married, but I've had a girlfriend for three years and it's an open relationship. We can see other people. But do you want to know the strange part? Having an open relationship actually helps. If you can get passed the whole..."Oh my god...someone else had sex with you," idea, than you may realize one of two things. Either you realize how much your girlfriend/boyfriend--husband/wife means to you and how much you just can't stand that other woman or man to be them....or you will realize that it isn't that way at all. If it turns out to be the first then you two are probably connected in some way. If it's the second, than you've got an issue that needs to be repaired...not bandaged.

Marriage isn't true love, it's a connection. They aren't the same thing. If a hardcore gamer kid thinks he'll never find love and finds a hardcore gamer chick and they fall in "love" you've got to wonder if their personality has anything to do with it.



Marriage is a complicated subject. In a religious point of view..it just isn't possible. Most if not all women have a thing for Brad Pitt. And most if not all men have a thing for...any of the number of..."wonderful"(hmmm?...) actresses that you see on TV. Why? You have the hots for them! What this doesn't mean is that you'll like them....but the ladies and the guys should still know that most of the time it can demean their partner. If it does that...you've got another issue. You can prove me wrong and patch up the issue I just explained...but you've got a number of others.

Most men cheat, and in todays society people think it's despicable. But in reality...men probably cheated on their wives before marriage was ever conceived.




Now I'm ranting. Hmmm......


Anyways...marriage is simply a connection between two people. You both have something that you like about the other, and if it works for you than I've no quarrels with you at all. I don't care if people marry and are happy together.


It IS also just a tax break, more income, bigger house, easier sex, etc.

....Not to be frank.

I was married for 12 years to the man I thought was my best friends (we were close through High School, and secretly started dating in our early 20's, were married when we were 23).

There were times it was great, but mostly we never expected the same things and didn't treat each other very well. I was in it for the long haul, the forever optimist in me... but he was done with the whole charade at about year 9. The reality is that we worked so much we spent almost no time together.

We were married in a Luthern church, his church. I had no religion at the time and could have at best been considered agnostic. Oddly, I was the one that was interested in seeing if we could keep it together, he threw in the towel the second something came up that looked better to him.

I'm not sour on marriage per se, but at this point, I'm fairly sure I'll never be married again. But I keep an open mind, I might meet that person that person that I am interested in sharing a porch and twin rocking chairs with. I'm definitely not searching for it.

If I were ever to get married again, I'd say that it would probably happen in my church and honestly, I think I'd like that person to have the same dedication to faith that I have. Of course, most of the eligible batchelors at my chruch, don't play for my team.

My wife and I wanted a ceremony because we wanted our families and friends to celebrate with us. We wanted to acknowledge before our loved ones what we felt had already been acknowledged between us and God: That we loved each other and wanted to be united monogamously for life, that we wanted to have children and raise them within a stable home environment, and that we were making a serious and absolute commitment to each other.

In a couple of weeks, I will have been married 27 years to my high school sweetheart. We got married in college. In a church. My parents were divorced after 25 years. I could not understand it. For me, marriage is a commitment. But what is that? Well it means I'm locked into another person for life. Divorce, separation, etc are not options that would ever be considered. If you don't understand and commit to that kind of love then what's the point of getting married? I suppose you could get that kind of commitment civially but to do it in front of God, your parents, friends, family, supporters. That makes it even more special more solid, more connected. Marriage is hard work. There are tough times. There are great times. All things change. Any bad stuff fades over time. Getting married in a church usually means that you have to review your commitment with a clergy. I don't look down on those who weren't married in a church. But why "cheapen" it somehow? as if marriage is not really important. This is two people being bonded. It's not getting hitched with an "out" clause for later. I hate that. Maybe I'm an anacronism. Maybe not. If I can teach by doing, I'm hope my marriage is an example. Ok off the soapbox.

I feel I have the most incredible relationship the stuff dreams are made of.. simply because who each is, is the best part , we do not need the other to be anything but who they are... both of us are complete in ourselves and share in a journey of self discovery and fun and a love that few know....we allow room for disagreement as these are the moments that create the oppourtunity for our love to become even deeper... We dig each other and celebrate this i have been married 12 years lived together first .. we hold the others happiness as the most important factor and define this based on hwo we are...., this man is my best freind and there is no greater gift then for me to have this incredible oppourtunity to love this man... and i am honnored to journey with him.....for me to have my hubby and kids to love is a charmed life...and humour its our greatest combined strength..my hubby is hilarious and i love to laugh and apprecaite him immensely and tell him all the time.........

When you have kids, you forget how much you love your partner. he he he...

At one point in time, yes, but not now, especially here in the U. S. of A. Divorce is common place. It's very sad because one really sees one's strength and other good traits in a binding relationship..., but only if the people in it are willing to grow together. "Fear of eternal damnation," as regards to breaking a vow, is definitely not an issue with my married friends. This didn't even cross their minds, to begin with. Besides, they're not Catholics or Southern Baptist. They are (highly educated) Christians, nonetheless. Guilt is not the reigning factor of their love.



Having responsibilities is inevitable in any relationships, and I could only speak for my friends and what they told me is that they do their responsibilities gladly, out of love, for the benefit of the whole..., not to be managed by them. Responsibilities are part of the deal, they are a fact of life, after all. And to many married people, these are a higher expression of romance. some say that the wife gets extra amorous when the husband do his manly chores."



My best friend would gladly tell you, "...for gifts and extra benefits...!"



I can answer this one, hands down. When I give my promise to stay in a relationship, that's forever. Then again, I just don't get involve with just anybody, either. I know I'm worth it, no doubt about that, and that's been proven. I know what I want... And I've gone through the abyss, many times at that. It's never my fault if the relationship ends..., NEVER. "My love is guaranteed," so the disco song wails.

Then again, my life is not over, yet..., but through Gods grace, my promise to stay ... is hard as diamond.




The key here is to really commit to your promise.

Ah, finally. Absolutely nothing.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I don't see the point. Basically, marriage has nothing to do with love. If you look at it from just the bare essence of what it is, it's just a legal document that grants certain rights to (certain ) people who live together. All of the love was already there. That is why I just can't fathom why people started making such a big deal out of it in the first place. I don't know... that's just me.

I have the perfect marriage. I can do anything I want, as long as I get permission. Yeah, she's in charge. I admit it.