I don't agree with all atheists either.

And I don't feel religion should be eradicated. Except ones that preach hatred and try to slime into politics. If they can keep it seperated/secular then it's ok with me.

Faith is a very pesonal matter.

It is the best medicine for some people and I have seen it do wonderful things for people.

It should not be imposing nor discriminate against non-believers or people of a different faith. This is what I love about europe.

When you hear a religous programme over here it is so different in it's message.
It's usually wise quotes from Jesus with an accompanying commentary that is totally loving and logical and never threatening or judgemental.
You would have to hear it.And they are usually narrated by a soft spoken female preacher.
Even though i don't believe in the bible I don't mind because they make sense and are non-judgemental.

Just saying is all...my point here is this - if you have no desire to understand what another group is like, then you shouldnt lable it....if you think your mind is strong, then dont be afraid to open it to all worlds and LEARN SOMETHING!!!
Why thank you..but i beieve if you have a strong mind...you would be more understanding to ALL and ALL means ALL...not just ONE group...thats shows waek minds IMO
[/quote]


All groups ??

Like the taliban,satanist and westboro baptist ?

I was wondering who you quoted there for a sec lol

Yes all groups...dont matter who they are

take satinists...I looked into their faith and its no so bad................just because I understand something, don't mean i must all of a sudden become one of them

I dont do groups...I dont like lables...thats why i follow God in my own way...no book...no rules..just ME!!!

I refuse to accept people who want to kill us that is dangerous. I am not that tolerant. LOL !

I don't let people do their thing if it's dangerous to others. I don't like labels but taliban gets one from me.

I will fight them if I cannot educate them to wise up.

I cant suddenly change my mind about the afterlife and God, I need to be convinced. It's not as dark and gloomy as it sounds. Infact, when you really think about it, every moment counts a billion times more if there is no afterlife. If there is, you just live your very very very short life(on the grand scale of things) a certain way to get into Heaven and you have eternity ahead of you. But to me, Heaven sounds like the ultimate bribe, it doesn't sound like a real place at all, the only reason the idea has survived at all is wishful thinking.

Read up on the church of satan...tell me what you think

Some of their beliefs and practices are:

They do not worship a living deity.
Major emphasis is placed on the power and authority of the individual Satanist, rather than on a god or goddess.
They believe that "no redeemer liveth" - that each person is their own redeemer, fully responsible for the direction of their own life.
"Satanism respects and exalts life. Children and animals are the purest expressions of that life force, and as such are held sacred and precious <--I so fully agree with this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan

Becky I know all about satanism. I was going to be one . They are a little too self-serving for me.
I mean the fake satanists. The dangerous crazy ones.

My main pet peeve is with the extremists.

Oh when I say all groups i didnt mean those extremists lol...I was talking about religious groups in general...not extremists

I cant stand extremist myself

It is interesting that though they may switch from one belief system to another, fundamentalists in general tend to remain demanding unyielding fundamentalists no matter what belief they currently hold, even if it becomes atheism.

Just in case you are referring to me I am not an atheist.

I think switching faiths can be a rewarding experience just as traveling and getting to know other cultures and peoples.

I mentioned this earlier, but now is a great time to say it again. Changing FAITH like we change our clothes, hair color, significant others, cars, etc. is just wrong, no matter what the faith is! Faith is not a freakin fashion accessory! Becoming a Muslim tomorrow is not rewarding and fulfilling like going to Disney world, or spending a week in France learning about French culture! Faith is for REAL. Take it seriously. If you don't then don't bother claiming you have any (faith that is).

I've believed more or less the same thing all my life. But I can see how someone would think they'd found something which was right for them only to discover that it's not and they need to keep looking.

What I don't understand is people who become a Jew/Muslim/whatever because their friend has, or their pop idol has.

Earlier in this thread, I made a general assessment that in my personal experience, atheists on UM tend to be "negative and harsh" in their dealings with believers. My statement was called into question in a very vigorous way. I do not intend to "bash" anyone. I am simply supplying evidence to support my personal experience. I have not included the names of the posters, because I do not want to make this a personal matter or make anyone feel like I'm attacking them personally. However, if you wish to have the posters name and the thread line, please e-mail me and I will supply it. The summaries are how I interpret the statement, as a believer. (Sorry about the red, but UM told me I had run out of my quota for "quotes.")

“lolocast-mc-ma-tronics-lolroflmao.
and actually you are not pounded on the head with facts, science discovers truth, it contradicts your faith. plain and simple you can continue to live a delusional life or accept the WHOLE reality, not just bits and pieces that suit you and your faith.”
Summary: Okay—believers are living a “delusional life.” I’m delusional! What if this was in reverse with atheists in the hot seat? I think we'd hear a lot of screaming, then.

“Im no theist but i want to answer your questions because im bored at work.
There is nothing to suggest any particular religion is correct, they are virtually all faith based. Different religions from different cultures..if there was a god you would have to assume that there WOULD be one set of beliefs for us, just another reason why the hypothesis of god is so ludicrous.
Theists can NOT argue with science.. thats just crazy, and any biologist knows that "intelligent design" is far far far far far far far FAR from intelligent.”
Summary: Our belief is “ludicrous” and “not intelligent”. I feel like I’m being called stupid and crazy if I try to argue (and I don't think we need to argue with Science in the first place--I think belief and science can exists together quite easily).

“Of course, what was i thinking. Silly me.
I like how christians have a well devised escape route to all the embarrassing text in the bible. Its a horrible book ok. get over it."
Summary: So the book I hold in high esteem, one that many believers revere, one that is a tool I use for life, is a “horrible book”? How is this not religion bashing?

“What grinds my gears is the bloody creationists....Why is it that their backward logic always suggests that, if its something that we cant explain yet, automaticly it evidence of intelligent creation..i tell you what.... there is no intelligence present there.
its such backward way of living. "oh i dont know how thats created, there for its evidence of god and i dont have to know how it works or how it was created"
ANGRY FACE”
Summary: I’m a “bloody creationist?” My logic is “backward”? My way of living is "backward"? Hm. Them’s fighting words.
Personally, I believe in evolution. I think the Genesis story is simply that--a story. However, I do believe that God created life, and he used evolution to bring about humankind as we know it.

“I have never encountered a single human being who has believed the bible is inerrant without having to let go of their ability to use reason. Faith dictates that people believe the unbelievable, and once you cross the border and enter territory where proof is no longer required, contradictory information is accepted as fact, and where a clash between science and faith is met with the disposal of whatever science says, you compromise your ability to be logical. Yes, I know people who are Christians, by their own admition, who are in the sciences, but they do not believe that the bible is inerrant and do not take a lot of it literally... where religion and science collide, it is religion which steps back and science which takes over. And would they be classed as "true" Christians by those who consider themselves to be just that on this forum? I imagine not.

It's simply a fact that those who truly have immersed themselves in their religion, who I have encountered over the years, and who have believed that the bible is inerrant and therefore put all their faith in the supernatural, have not advanced, and have invested so much of their time and effort into following the path that their god has laid out for them that they have remained in the same jobs, at the same level, and have been proud to have done so, because they believed that sacrificing scientific knowledge (and all manner of other kinds) in order to hold their faith was something to be proud about.”
Summary: I surmise from this post that believers are not ambitious or successful because the “have not advanced”? Believers have, "let go of their ability to use reason." That sounds like stereotyping and seriously limited thinking. I have advanced quite nicely, thank you. I graduated from college summa cum laude with 3.96 GPA. I run my own business in addition to working full-time at a civil service position that pays higher than most jobs in my area. This comment is, at the least, very belittling and degrading to a believer.

“Typical religious argument, taking no responsibility for your bad apples... its the kind of arrogant logic that you cant argue with.
Yet when something good happens your all ever so quick to praise the grace of god.....ehhhhhhhhhhhhh
Please don't tell ME to wake up and smell the java
Oh, and i NEVER blamed all that goes wrong on religion.
I said in my opinion it has severely stunted our intellectual growth.”
Summary: Believers use “arrogant logic.” Religion “severely stunted our intellectual growth.” Some of our most highly evolved thinkers were believers. Some of the most successful people I know are believers. Again, this shows generalizations and serious stereotyping.

“Q. What about intelligent people who accept evolution and do marvel at scientific advances (and perhaps were raised without much religion), but who suddenly find themselves wanting more-wanting a specifically religious dimension to their lives that science can't fill?
A. Well, I've never met one. I've met plenty of people who call themselves religious, but when you actually probe, when you ask them in detail what they believe, it turns out to be this very same awe and wonder that Wilson and Einstein talked about. If they're genuinely intelligent, it does not involve the supernatural. Unless they were brought up that way-but you were careful to say people who were not brought up religious.
My suggestion is that you won't find any intelligent person who feels the need for the supernatural. What you will find is the need for a sense of transcendent wonder, which I share as well.”
Summary: I don’t think it’s a stretch to see that this poster is calling believers unintelligent. That’s the same as stupid, isn’t it? After all, believers can’t be “genuinely intelligent.”

“Make of it what you will..
but its the religious moderates who give voice and validity to the fundamentalist believers weather they mean to or not...
so in fact is moderates are JUST as bad as the fundamentalists.
You might say it caused a Jihad others might call it retaliation of an abused exploited frustrated nation”
Summary: Uh…so believers are “bad”?

“uhhh no, i have moved past that point of my life, i wasted a decade of my life on the dead end road of religion. my time is important.”
Summary: So…religion is a “dead end” and a waste of time? I call this belittling someone’s belief system.

“It just does'nt make sense, everything inside me just revolts to being told to "just have faith" no.. life does NOT work that way. You are a fool to pursue ANYTHING with blind faith.”
Summary: Believers are “fools.” (Personally, I don't "blindly" follow anything. I have come to my convictions through prayer, education, study and research.) Isn't this a tad negative and harsh?

“"...the god hypothesis is the most backward one humans have come up with to date...."

Summary: I don’t think it takes a stretch of the imagination to say that this poster thinks believers are “backward.” Does anyone like to be called "backward"? No one I know. What if I called an atheist "backward"? (Which I have never done.)

“but ok.. assuming jesus is real.. you think he would appear in front of this kid while he was in bed?
i dont doubt this kid saw something.. i cant argue with this.. hell i saw pennywise the clown appear infront of mybed last night.. yay...
why did jesus appear infront of this kid? why not the other people who believe in this nonsense?”
Summary: Believers believe in “nonsense.” So, our belief is nonsensical.

“yes MAN who belive that GOD wrote that "GOOD BOOK"
yes MAN who cant make a decision in life without refering to that evil "GOODBOOK"
Summary: The Bible is “evil.” According to whom? Isn't this a bit harsh?

“If you disagree, that is your right but I imagine you can not offer any verifiable evidence (such as can be offered for the theory of gravity) for Christianity. As for faith that gravity exists, no…no faith, I have evidence which is more than you have for Christianity…it is you that is being conned, you are no different than anyone else accepting Christianity, you are a part of the mindless mass that allows yourself to be controlled. ”
Summary: Believers are part of a “mindless mass” and have no free will. Once again, what if I referred to atheists as part of the "mindless mass"? Surely there would be some strong objections.

Free will is an essential belief in Christianity, as it is in many other religions. God gave us free will as a gift, so we can decide to follow him or not. Without free will, religion WOULD be useless. We can choose to do good—or do bad. It’s OUR choice.

“true but religion IS used to keep the masses on one side..eg bush.. christian.. majority of his people, christian, there for, if they are fighting someone non christian.. then there is no way in hell WE can be wrong.. RIGHT?
yes its human nature... human stupidity sure... but IMO human stupidity is the reason we still have religion anyway. ”
Summary: People who have belief in a religion are the reason people are stupid? And how can that be not negative?

“That may have been well and good when the year began with the first two numbers being 17. but seriously .. we are now in the year 2007.. and while i dont doubt that once upon a time a belief system such as you mention would have been an aid to mankind.. surely we at a point now were we can face our truths...stop living a lie.. and grow up... sure its a bold and scarey move to become honest with ones self.. 100% truthful and honest.. but im sure its a liberating one too.”
Summary: Believers are “living a lie” and need to “grow up.” Sounds VERY judgmental to me.

"Well, i have seen a lot of people who went to a christian group first time.
They experienced something they never felt before then started reading the Bible.
Then they become fanatics.Then they started reading passages to you even they know you're in that business for a long time.
How's that ? Leave them alone or blast them?
I preferred rudeness to wake them up. "Summary: Believers are "fanatics" when they begin sharing the Bible. Is that really fanatical? I think fanatical is someone who straps explosives to his chest and blows up hundreds of innocent people because of his beliefs. Of course, that's just my opinion. Poster admits to "rudeness" to "wake them up." Does this show tolerance or negativity? I think he should have picked his A choice, "leave them alone."

"Religion = Crap.
Plain and simple."
Summary: None necessary.

"Sins uhhh
Well once in school we had the usuall bible bashing assemblys which i was always bored to death with seen as it was just some fat guy trying to brainwash every one to christianity. Anyway while walking through the hall i actually opend the bible they gave out to everyone and read a few lines of it, i started laughing and said to my freind "God is a ****ing bunch of sh**e, **** this book" and threw it in the bin.
edit: thankyou for your frankness but trust me..... we didn't need to know that (I think this was from an edit by a moderator.)
I dont belive in god, im sure thats a sin."
Summary: An example of some good old fashioned name calling from an atheist and a rather disrespectful act. Who the heck holds a "bible bashing assembly"?

“As most people on these threads know I find the whole concept of God and religion a ridiculous waste of time and energy and have better things to do with my life and time than to follow it....It creates disharmony everywhere, you only have to look on these boards.
...I edited this because I felt I was being too negative towards Christians and I don't want to be like that."
Summary: Too late…saying our belief system is “a ridiculous waste of time and energy” is already pretty negative. Oh…and we also cause “disharmony everywhere.” Seems to me that is a two way street, huh?

NOTE: two words I found that I included as negative words used towards believers, "murderers" and "haters" were directed toward one specific religion/church, so I have not included them in this post. I found the posts too distasteful to repeat and off the subject.

I will once again clearly state that I am fully aware that this is a two-way street--that believers have been less than positive with non-believers. (I actually I think apologized for those of us who have.) I realize that my statement that "those who would think an afterlife would be "boring" shows a lack of imagination" could be taken negatively, and I apologize.

However, I still hold firm to my belief that I stated earlier from my assessment of atheists on UM. I did not say this was a universal condition of atheists everywhere, and some of you were kind enough to give examples of positive, happy non-believers, which I am grateful for.

My purpose was simply to give some substance to my personal experience on UM. Shaddow Hill will probably say that many of these statements are "justified"--in his opinion. I must clearly state that EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO THEIR OWN OPINION. I firmly support their right to express their beliefs. However, I still think the negativity and harshness in some of these posts is obvious to most readers.

Once again, I don't intend to make this an attack. I simply felt the need to give evidence for my own personal experience.

I'm not sure how this would work. If you're constantly aware that all there is is this life so every moment may be the last you will ever have, wouldn't this cause you to worry at all times and be paranoid that the next thing you do may lead to your death, to total, complete, absolute lack of existence? If you are not constantly aware that each moment is dear and may be your last, then you are not really enjoying life any more or any less than someone living this life with a sureness that this is but a blip in an existence with a beginning, but no end.

This above section of what you posted is mine - I posted it not very long ago. The first paragraph is entirely true, as is the second.

This is your response:


Well, do I know you? No? Then you are not one of the people I have encountered over the years (bit I bolded) are you. So why does my observation about complete strangers offend you?

Secondly, faith is not reason. It replaces reason. You have to stop using reason to believe by faith. So how is this harsh?

And thirdly, I'm a female... and I'm not an Atheist - hence my signature.

Accepting that the next moment may be your last doesn't make you worry... it makes you grateful you have it. People have a tendency to put things off until tomorrow, but if you think tomorrow may not arrive you don't put things off. Every day is packed full of meaningful things because there might not be a tomorrow to pack meaningful things into. People are so caught up in looking forward to being dead, I like to spend my time experiencing the here and now and not thinking beyond next week.

Why is non-existence so worrying anyway? We won't know about it if it happens.

I really don't know why it would be, since I don't believe in it, I was stating my opinion, from my viewpoint, responding to the opinion of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife and sees no reason for it.

Of course it's true--in your opinion. This was YOUR experience. And it may not be true for all believers, or all Christians. What I stated, that atheists on UM tend to be harsh and negative toward believers, was MY experience. I said I could not comment on atheists outside the UM and hoped it was otherwise. I found some evidence to support my opinion. Don't I have the same right to share my experience as you?



I apologize for the gender error.

However--I do use reason as a basis for my faith. Perhaps you don't. You should not assume to make this judgment for all believers. It seems harsh to me because you are telling me that I need to surrender reason for my belief. I see no reason to do so simply because you said I must. Again, this is not some universal truth you have happened upon, it's your personal opinion.

You're using a quote by a Deist to support your point that Atheists are harsh. Where's the logic in that?



I'm not telling you to surrender reason. I'm not telling you to do anything. I'm saying that reason is surrendered if belief is based on faith. Faith replaces reason.

And again... I'm a Deist. Of course I base what I believe on reason... it's what Deists do.

I'm not sure you can prove this, and, therefore, should not be making this as a statement of truth. After all, scientists "believe" that their calculations regarding the age ot eh planet are correct based on what they know. They have no way of proving this is so, the logic and evidence seems to support that belief, but it is still only belief, which in turn, implies faith in the evidence. Faith does not necessarily require the suspension of reason.

Perhaps I mistook your belief system--your posts sort of followed along the line of atheism in certain threads. For that, I apologize.

However, you clearly stated the following; this is your quote:



Then you go on to contradict yourself and then restate the same position:



I think there's a problem with the logic here, too.

Personally, I think there is faith, I have my faith, but my faith is based on reason.

It's a theory son... a scientific theory... based on scientific evidence. As opposed to the belief that god made a whole human being called Adam and then used his rib to make Eve because a book says it's so.

It should be blatantly obvious that reason is in operation in the one case, and faith is in operation in the second case... the one involving the talking snake.

You took my first post to mean that I was telling you what to do. I was simply clarifying the fact that I'm not... I'm telling you that this happens, not that I require it of you. So there's no contradiction, just clarification.

I have no idea what you personally believe, but for a man to believe that a human was impregnated by a god, and was crucified and then resurrected, it takes faith. Reason plays no part in that. Such a belief does not require logical thinking... it requires the suspension of it. For a person to believe that the bible is the word of god, and inerrant, it takes faith... again, there's no place for reason there.

I take it very seriously.

In fact I study,dissect it and put it under a microscope. If it stinks to high heaven I toss it.

I prefer my god to be kind,predictable,logical and understanding just like the man I choose to marry.

I don't like jealous,mysogonistic,illogical and someone who murders his children when they disobey. Is that ok with you ?

You guys say we have "free will" ? So if my daughter goes out that door and disobeys me and I send her to hell,was that really free will? I'd say she was not free at all. she was a slave to my will .

Once again, this "blatantly obvious" belief is simply a "theory," as you clearly stated. Not mine, and not many believers that I know. Science can't answer the question as to the creation of life any more than religion can. I personally don't believe in the Genesis story--as I stated earlier. I believe God created life, and life evolved from there.

As I stated earlier, my faith comes from research, study, education and prayer. From those things, I gain my faith. I don't think it's as simple as you seem to think.

You may be a little more careful in "presuming" people will share your same beliefs because they are "blatantly obvious." Again, just add "in my opinion" a little bit more and try not to generalize so much.

Oh...and I'm not a "son." Or were you just being sarcastic?

That is only according to your belief in God, or those you are judging. Do you believe God will send you to hell for disobeying? My God doesn't. He forgives as soon as I repent. Actually--in my belief, God has already paid for my sins, so the forgiveness is a "standing order." All I have to do to receive it is ask.

Just because we have free will doesn't mean there aren't repercussions for our negative actions. Negative actions generate negative results. However, there is always forgiveness available when you believe. That's one of the lessons we try to learn as believers.

Just like our bosses are not always kind, or our spouses predictable, or children logical, neither are our Gods/Godesses. This is why some people make up their own! Who said anything about murdering children? Or being misogynistic? Also, I am not one of "you guys".

Perhaps nothingness is the ultimate peace.

Now that makes some sense.

I was responding to iamsson... the quote was above my post. Hence the "son". And you are entirely missing my point.

indeed S. there is no other way to except these beliefs except on faith.... these are beleifs that are on hearsay and no authority, no proof is required this is a clear understanding of faith IMO...

Of course faith is necessary, I'm not saying it isn't.

However, I firmly believe we can come to faith through logical reasoning. First, I believe there is a God because I see so much perfection in the universe. I see "intelligent" design all around me. Science can't answer my questions on how this happened--the most I get from it is the "Big Bang" theory. You see, it's a THEORY. No proof yet.

So, I think this leaves the belief that some supernatural force may have created life a logical one. At least, just as logical as the 'Big Bang' theory.

Yes, I have a belief, or faith, that Jesus was a historical figure. Many argue that there is no proof of a historical Jesus. I have found some secular information that does mention Jesus. (E-mail for the links.) So, I believe there is very good chance Jesus did live. I find the accounts of his life in the Bible are useful to me and my life. They assist me when I have questions and they comfort me when I'm in trouble. Hence, it's logical that I would continue using this book because it benefits me. Why would I get rid of something that is a benefit to me? That would be illogical.

Here is an article I found that has some useful ideas. I don't agree with the author's negative comments towards non-believers, but I do appreciate his putting into words the thought process behind the belief in God.

The Obvious Existence of God

Here's another very useful link I found to explain why I believe that I found my faith through reason. Once again, I don't agree with every part of this article, especially his view on evolution, but I find it overall very revealing and essentially explains how I logically came to my belief in God. I especially like the following quote:

Faith and Proof
David C. PackThe Existence of God

Hmmm never thought of that lol good call Athena