Surely not for the Sheep lol ...just kidding


Ive already been to my dream place a few times..florida lol

Now I wanna go to Vegas.........then on to Italy......

Some Christians, after much prayer and research, have come to the understanding that the Bible is a very complex book that spans centuries and contains writings from vastly different points of view. We also know that although the Bible was inspired by God--it was written by man, and therefore, subject to scrutiny.

Personally, I believe the Bible is simply a tool for life. I don't believe the Bible is infallible--I realize that parts of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, contain the history of the Hebrews from their point of view. They had a limited point of view at times. There are archaic laws that were established simply to give law and order to a wayward people. They give God some human foibles that simply don't jive with the God of the New Testament or how I understand and know God on a personal level.

Does that negate the importance of the Old Testament? Hardly. It simply means that we must use the Holy Spirit to discern what was from God and what was from man.

There are also discrepancies in the New Testament. Again, to me, this does not negate the value of the book--it simply means that I must use the discernment of the Holy Spirit, and Christ's church (as the Body of Christ on Earth) to interpret the Bible.

So--I don't see it as "picking and choosing." I see it as being educated enough to realize the origins of the Bible, the history behind it, and the fallibility of man. Man wrote the Bible. I believe he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. But I also realize that anything--ANYTHING--that has been done by man is subject to error. Only God is perfect. This is the wisdom you receive with the Holy Spirit.

I don't see why Mr. Dawkins has this "all or nothing" mentality. Sounds very narrow-minded to me.

Thanks for your posts everyone. I'd like to clairify I'm not really seeking out a religion. I just find it hard for someone to accept that there is no Afterlife, not so much God. When I say afterlife I'm not reffering solely to the christian afterlife, I mean the possibility of an Afterlife in any numerous form. For me I don't see a point to our existence if we one day cease to exist. I understand all that live life to fullest and all that but that just doesnt do it for me. I realize if i ceased to exist one day then at least I would be rid of my burden, so at least I can find the positive in that.


To address TrueThat.

I'm not sure that what other people believe bothers me, its just that I'd like to understand it better.

"Atheists believe there is no afterlife therefore dont feel the need to care...........they just get on with their lives...and quite a lot of them lead very good lives...if they feel they dont need to hold on to a faith, then so be it" -Becky's Mom

I see what you're saying. To me the concept of Athiesm seems very depressing and dark. If I were to be an Athiest I wouldn't feel motivated in this life. I realize thats not the case for Athiests, I've met many successful people who have no belief in an afterlife.

"I also find the idea of an eternal afterlife scary, because eternity means eternal boredom and no final release from life. " -Craddle of Fish

I see your point, however if you were reincarnated you would be starting with a clean slate, no memories of the past lives and therfore no chance to build on that eternal boredom.


"kinda like the christians , muslims, jews ect ??? each thinking they are right alone ? is that what you mean ?" -Lt Ripley

Yeah you got the jist of it. Some people seem to think that just because they beleive it, it must be universally true for us all. I'm not saying all Athiests are like that, but many I've met are. We should all have respects for the beliefs of others, theres no need to convert other people to your rationale or label them inferior when they refuse.

I realize our brains are all wired differently and we came from different backgrounds, It's just for me I find it hard to understand how someone can be content with the idea of non-existence. I can't seem to wrap my mind around it, for me it seems like something doesnt add up for me to beleive that way.

I'm not asking anyone for spiritual guidance here, I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind some of your beliefs to help me understand.

Thanks everyone for your posts! I found them very interesting and insightful!

GetBornAgain:

I understand your reasoning. I made a personal choice to be a believer because it found it a much more fulfilling and happy way to live. Having faith does come with benefits. (I heard we live longer, heh heh.)

I think those who fear an afterlife--or eternity--because they may get "bored" shows a lack of imagination. If you're perfectly happy, but still have plenty of stuff to do (which is what I think heaven is like), why not go on forever? I seriously doubt that "heaven" is simply a bunch of people floating on clouds and singing praises to God. I think there are other worlds, other lives, other places to go and explore. We will have the universe at our fingertips.

And if we do simply just sing praises to God--and we feel fantastic doing it--what's so bad with that? (I really doubt God has us singing praise to him for his sake--it's for ours.) Time is not an issue in the afterlife (so I hear), so we won't get bored with time.

You are very kind !

I am not an atheist I am confused ! LOL

And no ,all Atheists are not happyof course . They searched and came to their conclusion.

With some that may change someday.

Noone can prove there is no god.

Use your logic,reasoning skills and also what " feels right" for you.

In a way..to say that athiesm is very depressing and dark..and you wouldnt feel motivated...sounds a lil too harsh

I follow God..and I wouldnt like it, if someone told me, that to follow a mythical God (god in heaven)...is very depressing and silly...I would be a tad offended

I do what makes me happy................so do atheists...they are happy with what they have in life

Granted i have only ever really met atheists on here, but the ones I have met, are happy go lucky human beings...and a number of them are so smart and raise happy loving families


One time an atheist wrote this ---------> I am very happy with my life, I know the real meaning behind love.....I love my family more than anything, I wouldnt hurt another living soul....I love my life
I dont need to follow a book to guide me or tell me how to live...........I already hold good morals within me, thats what makes me happy and thats all that counts

Now to me that showed me that you dont need a faith to be happy...ANYONE can be ..........ANYONE can love their lives...........cuz you must remember, a lot of those who feel unworthy and wanna kill themselves are those that do follow a Go of some kind...

So my point is this - its unfair to say that atheism is dark and depressing.............not very nice...that is coming from a baised mind that only looks at life ONE way

try and be more understanding

Thats putting atheists down a lil.....maybe they just dont sit and think about death and what come next, is because they like to live for tomorrow...live each day as it comes


I myself believe in an afterlife, only cuz I chose to...I call it living in hope as well..cuz lets face it..we all do HOPE for our sakes there is one................but even if there isnt...we wont know will be??

I think you make a good point sis, we do choose ideas that somehow give us hope or bring us comfort......

I'm sorry I have to disagree with you there, I'm allowed to percieve Athiesm anyway I like. I'm just stating how the concept feels to me, and one of the reasons I personally choose not to hold this way of thinking. That's me. Obviously thats not the case for everyone and thats totally fine. It can be gloomy to one person and liberating and joyus to another. I have read your posts before and I do respect you and agree with much of what you say.

This thread was in no way intended to attack Athiests.

thanks

Welcome to the boards of Unexplained mysteries.



Do you know a lot of atheists, or is this something you have heard?
Is there any difference between an atheists conviction that there is no god, and a religiously oriented individuals conviction that god exists?



So, from your POV, life is only worth living and doing well if there is an afterlife? "Be good in this life, get a lollipop in the next"? Why wouldn't you do more to be happy and successful in this life, if it is the only shot you get? Which is more gloomy and dark:

A - to live your life to the fullest knowing you only get one go round,

OR

B - Better be good boys and girls, because >HE< is watching you and you WILL be judged.


Or is there a misconception regarding atheists? Why the supposition that belief in god means "goodness", and disbelief in god means "badness"?

I live on the beach in florida. Muahahaha.

Hey its just the way i interpret things. Yes it would be ideal to live life to the fullest no matter what you beleive. What I'm trying to say is, the bottom line, once you die. You cease to Exist everything you accomplished is gone, it will be as if you never existed. It may remain in the memories of the living but to you it won't matter. You will have no conscious thought to even appreciate that, you wont be able to look back on any of your accomplishment. So whats the point really?

At least if there is an afterlife, it will likely revolve greatly around the life you led, making your accomplishment and your actions relevent to your spiritual progress into the next phase. This point of view just makes a little more sence to me personally.

But you are right, I should not live only for the rewards of the next life, for it may not come.

I'm not perfect, got some motivational problems.

Maybe we do go onto something else, but that doesn't mean we'll remember this life or that the next will be good or bad depending upon what we've done in this life. Maybe we reincarnate and remember nothing. Who knows.

And what you achieve in this life will matter regardless of whether or not you go elsewhere when you kick the bucket. It will matter to the people you've had an effect upon while you've been alive. We all make ripples in the pond.

Frere joey (runs and jumps in my soul brothers arms ) smothers him in kisses.. very good post and you haev raised great inquirys... you have been missed....

Good way of looking at things

Althought we won't remember our past life, our actions in that life will probably influence the quality of our next life.

I know this going way back but I have to answer this. Unless you follow the religion of you parents you do choose your religion. If you are not comfortable with the religion of your childhood are you suppose to ignore what you feel inside and live an unhappy life of confusion. If I followed the religion of my parents I would be atheist or agnostic. I was called to Paganism. I had an experience which changed my life. I didn't understand it until I did my research of religions and after I found Paganism I understood I had been told. If one really wants to find your true path do as Buddha did and meditate under a tree. I don't often tell people that, because a fear they will think I am insane and I am not sure it works for everyone.

Good luck, GetBornAgain, may you find the peace you seek.

I did that. From the age of about five I used to spend Sunday afternoon meditating under a tree in the local graveyard. It was so beautiful and peaceful there. And my becoming a Deist does stem back to my time under trees and in gardens or open fields.

That's beautiful Shadow, makes me think, do we believe eventually what we believed as children? Is that how it works.

oh my gosh S. and dark i so agree trees rock, i think if you feel depressed go hug a tree I too keep that one under wraps the ole kooky thing.....i have my tree too lol ...

Works for me! Maybe you Pagans don't eat babies after all... I do agree in all seriousness. I just hope some day you don't change your mind about something so serious. Conviction is the most powerful religion.

Are you sitting down?

I agree with you.

It would make sense to me (a believer) that from a non-believer or atheist standpoint, life could seem fuller because there are no, what many would call "limitations," or shift of perspective/behavior with an eternal purpose in mind.

Without a belief in God, of which many aspects are seen as irrelevant to this life by non-believers, it makes sense that working on all of the information and observations that a non-believer has, the best decision is to live this life making the best decisions that will yield the most happiness and well-being. I don't believe that any non-believer sees this as gloomy. Non-believers are just working from a different set of perspectives, experiences, and beliefs than believers are. In fact, it is logical that without an experience that causes you to know otherwise, living earthly life to the best of one's ability and with the best outcomes in mind relative to this life seems like the most natural thing in the world. I don't see how a non-believer would find it gloomy. What would they compare it to that would make it seem gloomy? Believers might find it gloomy. But non-believers don't. It wouldn't make any sense if they did. I am very sure, that nb's find the perspective of a believer in afterlife, to be very gloomy. They probably are befuddled as to why we would choose to willingly give up or change things about this life that from their perspective and experiences are the best and happiest things, the things that define this life, the things that they feel make them grow.

A nb's perspective couldn't be altered until they had an experience that shifted their understanding of the meaning of life. To assume that nb's could see their decisions as gloomy doesn't make sense to me. They would have to have different information, information that can only come supernaturally from the spiritual realm. I believe that they make the best of life the ways that they best know how to, like everyone does. It's just a matter of believers begin from one set of observations and non-believers from another. Both groups do what makes the best sense to them. Neither sees themselves as gloomy.

Now fourteen-year-old goths.... they're gloomy.

Becky's mom wrote:

So my point is this -[ its unfair to say that atheism is dark and depressing.............not very nice...that is coming from a baised mind that only looks at life ONE way



She actually wrote in her post "it seems" but I agree with you 100 % ! !!!

You may be right I did read believers (these may be Bhuddists etc. too) have better functioning immune systems. The power of the mind is amazing.
I wish I was convinced !
Meditation also has "amazing" effects ! It wasn't allowed by the JW's because they claim you left yourself open for demons !
Why are people that meditate so cool,warm, easy going people then ? I'll have to ask JW's that. LOL !

yes, I've heard that too momentarylapseofreason...

I was raised in the meditation and yogaic disciplines (my mom's run a yoga studio for 40 years) and I AM a Christian, but my faith and church is almost purely based on meditative prayer (completely silent, with the exception of the rare times when one of the congregation chooses to share something.)

I've had others tell me that they believe that the meditative form of worship does leave you open to demons. I've yet to find one of my bretheren confirm that this has ever been a problem for anyone in my faithful practice. We've been worshipping in this way for 300 years, so I'm going to assume that in the arena of demonic possession or influence, we have a good track record.

Yeah, maybe this did sound harsh: atheists may suffer from a lack of imagination if they think an afterlife would be boring--but, I've heard worse said about believers, so--it's my opinion and I'm sticking with it!


How about this for B: To live your life to the fullest, to be the best person you can be because it will help you to evolve spiritually, so you can go on to another life with more love and wisdom under your belt?

I think that's a viable option, too.

I know there must be really happy, well-adjusted, positive-attidude atheists out there. However, the majority of the atheists I've come across on UM tend to be very negative, harsh individuals, especially when it comes to them discussing people who have faith.

I think probably the worst thing I have said about atheists is that they show a lack of imagination if they think an afterlife would be boring. However, I've heard believers called the following from those who profess to be non-believers: hateful, stupid, murderers, idiots (yes, that's the word that was used), arrogant, fear mongers, paranoid, scary, deceptive, dumb, and fanatics. I took these directly from UM forum threads.

Is this my own distorted perception? Or is it just a weird occurrence for atheists on UM?

My mother's an Atheist. I don't have any issue talking to her about Deism, and my sister didn't have an issue talking to her about being a Christian (she's no longer one). There's never been a "them and us" mentality in my family. I've had plenty of friends who are Atheists and Agnostics, and they are no different from anyone else. Some of the most creative and imaginative people I've known have been Atheists. I don't know where the idea that Atheists are harsh and unimaginative comes from.

It seems that when we're discussing religion on this forum, any criticism of it is considered harsh and overly negative. I'm not an Atheist and I'm considered harsh because I consider the bible to be utter nonsense. I think that the simple presence of non-belief is considered harsh... but it's just non-belief.

Shadow--it's good to know it isn't universal.

Of course, I understand that I'm coming from a believer's viewpoint, but still--those words that I took from actual threads are harsh--or am I simply projecting? If I called a minority those words, I'd be in a heep of trouble, and rightfully so.

I don't know what context those words were used in, but I think the things people say here have less to do with their belief or non-belief and more to do with this being an anonymous Internet forum. We don't even know whether or not those who claim to be religious or not here are actually being honest about their beliefs... so who knows what really motivates the person to say whatever it is they're saying.

Okee dokee--whatever you have to tell yourself to justify that kind of behavior. I personally find that most people are rather honest when sharing their opinions on an anonymous forum because they ARE anonymous and don't have to measure up to anyone else's standards--so it could swing both ways, IMO.

Hey, I know that believers aren't all that sweet at times, either, and I apologize for those of us who are less than sensitive and rather intolerant. I know they are out there.

I was just speaking from personal experience. I knew it couldn't be a standard thing (at least I hoped it wasn't).

I'm not justifying it... I don't even know if there is a need for me to without knowing what the context is in each instance.

For example, I have had a Christian refer to my belief system in less than flattering terms. I told him he was condescending, or arrogant... something like that. Without the context, how is anyone to know if the label "arrogant" is deserved?

The words you refered to: hateful, stupid, murderer (although I've never heard anyone here called a murderer so that's a new one on me), idiot, arrogant, fear monger, paranoid, scary, deceptive, dumb, or fanatic. Without the comment which invoked this response, how can we judge whether the statement needs to be justified, or whether it was in actual fact deserved?

On the subject of an afterlife... and the lack of one being dark and scary:

A christian once said to me "what is your idea of heaven?", and I replied "being me"... his response was "ooooh, aren't we the arrogant little madam". Well I was thinking "aren't we the sad a*se who doesn't see the value in himself or his current existence because he's too busy planning for when he's improved by death."

Being here, right now, is wonderful. Life is a wondrous thing. It's not that I don't want more... that I reject the idea out of principal... but I don't need more for me to appreciate what I already have.

that's a good one.



Some atheists and some believers give eachother a hard time. Don't you realize that every single religion cries persecution? And perhaps communicating in this sarcastic sense with the little ignorant thumbs up could provoke a person to anger.






Maybe atheists have a reason to be bitter toward religion. Maybe they "love the person but hate the religion" ..or whatever excuse.

It all boils down to the lumping of people together willy-nilly.
All Christians are evil murderers: Pick a Crusade (There were plenty)
All Atheists are evil murderers: Pick a Secular Communist Regime (There were plenty)

The fact is, it's no where near that black and white, just an easy argument to fall back on.

Exactly ! And it's not like we desperately want to be atheist/agnostic & rebellious. It's just a conclusion we came to after some "very hard thinking".
I call it the "curse" of analytical thinking.
You know alot of us are not happy with our conclusion but we have to face up to it and make the best of this life and what we have.
It's not like we think f*** it and do whatever we want-thinking there are no consequences. Most of us "certainly" do live a very moral life (in logical terms).
We know what is right and wrong as do most.
If you all do some research atheists are the most discriminated people in the US. (not so in Europe, thank hulacabula !)
So yes some of us are a tad irritable about it. Especially when christianity is practically forced upon you all over the place. You always hear "what you don't pray ? Oh my god,girl !! Or what church do you attend or do you wanna go to church with me ?
My sister's daughter is an outcast in her town because she does not attend a local church !
And alot of them assume you must be having orgies in your basement or you secretly worship the devil posing as an atheist. most of the church going folk do not trust you . That is a fact. And if they are half a*rse nice to you it is because that they think they are going to convert you eventually with bible gaga.
You don't see us preaching on TV asking for money,healing people (HA),condemning to hell, talking in tongues,knocking on doors trying to force our viewpoint (hey that's an idea-payback time !)
I know this is not always the situation but it is the norm,ecspecially in the USofA because it is a "christian nation".
Hey ,we are godless heathens! We should be open to receive satan, spinning our heads around and spewing green gunk & using crucifixes for self-gratification . But we are not. Why is that ????

Eh...do I really have to go back and post all the quotes to put them in context? I'll do it if I have to, but dang, that's going take a long time.

And who will do the judging if it is "actual fact deserved"? I think that's all personal opinion, so it won't help much. What an atheist considers "deserved" may not be what a believer considers "deserved." That's part of the problem.



Yes, every single religion cries persecution. And I've heard non-believers cry persecution from believers. (For example, Madelyn Murray O'Hare, God rest her soul.) We're yanking the Ten Commandments from public places because of their "cries of persecution." We can't pray in public because we are "offending" them. So--once again, it swings both ways.

Oops...now I can add two other words to my list..."Ignorant" and "sad a*se." But then again, you probably see them as deserved. My little thumbs up was more intended for humor than sarcasm--I'm sorry it made the wrong impression.

Listen, I didn't intend to make this an atheist bashing thread--I just stated an observation I had made, my reasons for this observation, and I also indicated that I knew believers weren't blameless in this little battle, and I left open the idea that I could be/hope I'm wrong.

And now it appears I'm getting attacked, again. ("PERSECUTION!" she cried.)

So...perhaps I've proven my point?

I'm not suggesting you do that. I'm saying that the comments out of context don't allow anyone to get an overall picture of what took place. I imagine we could all list allegations made against one group or another, but without the circumstances there's no way to make a judgement one way or another. The act of calling someone "arrogant", for example, isn't in and of itself wrong, unless all the person said to deserve it was "hello, my name's Fred".



There are some things which most people would consider to be wrong, I imagine. But everything else is most likely decidedly grey. And it's not just a believer versus non-believer thing... believers get pretty mean amongst themselves too.

Perhaps, the 'problem' you are seeing is your own projection of martyrdom?

As I see it, Shadow Hill made a comment about a SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL that SHE encountered, yet YOU, HowdyDoo, are taking offense at her words?????????

How about this: the OP of this thread made a blanket statement regarding atheists have a 'dark & gloomy' existence, yadda, yadda, yadda.
should all those who do not believe in a creator take offense?

Too often, too many people on both sides of the fence complain of harsh criticism, slander, etc, when all they are really doing is showing how thin their own skin is. Not, of course, that I am stating you do Howdy.

Thought I made myself clear when I responded to Becky's Mom.. In no way did I say Athiests have a dark and gloomy existence, I merely stated thats how the concept of athiesm feels to me. Obviously the concept can feel differently depending on the individual. This is one of the reasons I started this thread, so maybe I can get a different prespective. Please don't twist my words. Thanks.

My Dad was an atheist and he didn't live a dark gloomy existence. He was a lot of fun to be around. You don't need a God to be moral, kind, or happy. My Dad was all those things.

Are these not YOUR words, GetBornAgain? How am I twisting them? You did not say " some" atheists; you did not say "many" atheists; nor did you say "of the atheists I know......".

As I used your statement, regarding another member who took umbrage at the terms used against believers on these boards as an example of how people can become too thin skinned, and see attacks where there are none.

Yea, you definitely twisted them. He said the concept of athiesm was dark and gloomy to him, he didn't say that athiests were dark and gloomy. He was referring to the concept, not the people.

oops I thought it was a "she". Egal..

I read my last post on this topic and noticed I need to clarify one thing.

First, if I sounded a little anti-USA that was not my intention.

I am an american living in europe the last 15 years and realised from living here made me all to aware of what is wrong with our country not that things are all perfect here (not even close).


Here in germany religion class is pretty much mandatory for children because the protestant and catholic church partly funds kindergarden and elementary school. Which is nice but it is also in their interest because if you are baptized you have to pay taxes to the church. (although you can sign papers that you do not want this).

But "very,very small percent" of people go to church or really believe,even the older people. The kids have communion but you notice it is mostly to get money from other family members and it is simply tradition.

But this country has an amazingly small rate in social ills compared to the US. I'm talking rape,teen pregnancy,poverty, general crimes as robbery and if there is- it is often a foreigner- I am sorry to say but the statistics prove it (they have great hard working immigrants too-no doubt about it.)
I have never had anything stolen here except my heart (not that it does not happen-stealing) I have left hundereds of euros laying openly around my home with my sons teenage buddies in and out and nothing has ever been taken. My son does have good taste in friends and i am sure alot has to do with luck too.
Lost my wallet -returned each time,MONEY INTACT.

They do have problems with "binge drinking" and drug use but not as bad as over there. i also think they smoke cigs younger and more than in the US ?


I heard there is a tremendous amphetamine use problem in the US is this true ?. Then again every state is somewhat different.

The "bible belt" is the worst place to be an atheist I assume ?

Some of you may actually think that this is satans way to seduce me into atheism (which again I'm not) but whatever explanations exite you-have at it.
I have actually been told this by believers.

But I am much more concerned with those extremist psychos fighting for Allah . I cannot think of anything more disturbing than this.
But you know Bin Laden is a man of faith. A very misled man....

What does irk me is the tolerance of extremist Islam which the germans are finally getting a "rude wake up call".


My point ? A "christian nation" is not necessarily a better place to live in.

The US is a beautiful country with friendly people (germans ar not outwardly as friendly but often sincere) and I am happy to be moving back there-regardless of some of my fears of rejection and crime.

And I will be on the side of all christians,buddists,pagans, moderate muslims,atheists to fight against these psychopaths called Al queada or the Talibanis.
They are the real danger to our well being and way of life !

We need to join together (all of us) to rid the world of this terrible affliction or blighte . It is a perversion of faith. We will not tolerate it

Great post. One aspect I have allways looked at when it comes to terrorists such as the Taliban faction is this. Look at Osama Bin Laden, is he Muslim or is he a terrorist? He is a terrorist who uses the Muslim religion and faith to justify his crimes. If there was no Muslim faith would he still be a terrorist? In my view yes. He would just be using another means to accomlish his goals.

When it comes to those against religion or as you put it a "religious nation" be it Christian or Buddist or so forth, it doesnt matter what good the religion does for the nation they will still want it eradicated because of their dislike and disbelief of it. Then again these are the same people who are complaining that the "Church" is not doing nothing to solve the problems in these third world countries and so forth. They want the church out yet they want the church to take a lead and charge into these problems.

They want full freedom to do what they want be it from church rules to government rules, yet when these terrorist factions and sadistic power mongers do atrocity after atrocity who do they turn to to solve these problems? The same government and church officials who they kicked out and denounced power to. It makes no sense at all. If they want the freedom to do as they please then all must have the freedom to do as they please even if some sadistic mad man decides to murder a group of individuals to gain or meet his or hers needs or desires through this ideal they set for themselves. Basicly they are no more selfish and ignorant than the sadistic. They might not kill hundreds of people or something off wack like that but still they expect church and state to allow them to do as they please.

Bottom line they need to quit pointing fingers and whinning over trivial crap and look at the big picture and like you said above, unite to stop the sadistics and leave the petty differences aside.

What makes you think I want religion eradicated ? Religion keeps people off drugs, alcohol and other ills. It can give people the strenghth they need that they may not get elsewhere .(some people)

I do want religion out of politics,out of my bedroom,out of my womb ,out of stem cell research,out of schools,out of science books..

Faith should be a private matter. not all of us need faith.

I overcame my addictions without faith but that does not make me a better person ? Does it ?

Tell me why everyone needs religion and faith. Thank you


And what is so terrible about secular countries such as western europe and others?
Don't rant off countries that are communist or have no freedom of religion.

A secular government needs to be in place so that it's laws are not enforced through bias or personal beliefs (especially when there is not an ounce of evidence for these beliefs). That is grossly unfair

I found this on another forum:


Why do atheists care about secularism and secular government so much? Why don't they let the Christian majority make its own laws?

There is nothing about atheism which absolutely requires that one care about secularism. In practice, however, secularism and secular government are the primary foundations for religious liberty in society. This protects irreligious atheists who dissent from the dominant cultural expressions of religion from being forced into supporting, expressing, and helping religious beliefs and institutions in any way. Secularism benefits everyone, religious theists as well, but it helps remove the presumption of religious belief from public institutions.

Members of the Christian Right often try to tell atheists that they should be more grateful to Christianity for its role in the development of Western democracy and liberty, even though there is little within the Bible or ancient Christian traditions which provide any support for the sort of democracy we have today.
What's ironic is that one thing for which atheists should perhaps be grateful to Christianity is also the one thing which the Christian Right most abhors: secularism.

The concept that there is a difference between the spiritual and political realm can be found right in the Christian New Testament. Jesus himself is cited as advising listeners to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. Later, the Christian theologian Augustine developed a more systematic division by distinguishing between two "cities," one that ordered the things of the earth (civitas terrenae) and one that was ordered by God (civitas dei).

Even more important to the development of modern secularism were the devout Christians who were aghast at the devastation caused by the religious wars that swept across Europe in the wake of the Reformation. In Protestant countries there was initially an attempt to translate the principles of the religious community into the wider political community; that, however, failed due to the growing divisions between Christian sects. This forced a reduction of overt and explicit references to specific Christian doctrines — reliance upon Christianity, if it remained, became more general and more rationalized.

In the end, political and cultural secularization occurred because of Christians who realized that overtly Christians states did far more harm than good. The modern secularism which protects members of all religions, as well as irreligious atheists who are critical of all religions, is thus a product of Christianity — not so much Christian doctrine and scripture, though they provided some backing, but Christian experiences with what happens when too much civil and religious authority becomes combined in the same people and institutions.

The Christian Right abhors secularism because it prevents them from promoting or imposing their vision of religion and religious beliefs over society. They would like to start with broad strokes, ideally getting the government to endorse a general sort of monotheism which would appear to be inoffensive to all or most religious groups. This would, however, be more than enough to tell atheists that they don't really belong — that they are second-class citizens. Some of these atheists are irreligious critics of religion, some religious themselves, such as Buddhists or members of the Raelian group.

If it weren't for the secular nature of America's government, it would be easy for Christian extremists to begin the process of establishing Christianity by establishing monotheism. Fortunately, however, the authors of the Constitution recognized the need for a secular government — they not only refused to insert Christianity into the document, but they refused to insert any sort religion or even theism. The Constitution doesn't authorize the government to promote, endorse, or encourage even simple belief in a god on any level.

American law and government don't promote atheism in any way, but they also don't have the authority to promote theism, monotheism, or any theistic religion. This means that the secular nature of American law and government protect the basic rights and liberties of atheists in America. Atheists should care about secularism because secularism is largely what keeps them free and equal.

I will assume that this post is directed to me, if it is you are way off base of what I was stating. Tell when where you feel I wronged you in my post and I will do my best to explain in a better detail what I was stating to you. In all honesty I was agreeing with what you posted and putting my thoughts on the matter in post.

Dave wrote:


When it comes to those against religion or as you put it a "religious nation" be it Christian or Buddist or so forth, it doesnt matter what good the religion does for the nation they will still want it eradicated because of their dislike and disbelief of it. Then again these are the same people who are complaining that the "Church" is not doing nothing to solve the problems in these third world countries and so forth. They want the church out yet they want the church to take a lead and charge into these problems.

Sorry Dave,I see you were not addressing me now but who is "they" ?
Am I being dense ?

And thanks for the compliment and being so nice !

"They" is a basic type of athiest that I have both spoken to in person and posted to on this forum. For example there is one who believes that if Catholics would approve the use of condoms that there would be no STDs in Africa. Yet in the same to next post he will state that Catholics need to be wiped off the face of the planet. There are also those who (even though they do not believe in a higher power) gripe that God does not stop all the atrocities found in this world. How can they blame something like a god for allowing or not stoping atrocities when they do not believe this diety exists? Makes no sense to me.

By the way glad were are not at each odds, I enjoy your posts.

How would you know what it would be like to be atheist??? if you have no idea what its like...after all you just look at it ONE way....I mean look at this..(please note this next part is just an example NOT real) ---->>>.......its very easy to say - a born again must not feel motivated at all, they seem to be brainwashed so easy, minds must be weak to follow the same book, same idea...same kind of preaching, same kind of prayers...same same...like the borg on star trek we are borg, we are one, You must comply, Resistance is futile <--translate that and it can be - > We are born again christians, the one true way, You must accept Jesus, repent now, or burn in hell ...........see what i mean?? so easy said....but dont make it so !!

Just saying is all...my point here is this - if you have no desire to understand what another group is like, then you shouldnt lable it....if you think your mind is strong, then dont be afraid to open it to all worlds and LEARN SOMETHING!!!


Why thank you..but i beieve if you have a strong mind...you would be more understanding to ALL and ALL means ALL...not just ONE group...thats shows waek minds IMO