Hey everyone. I'm a new member here. I've had a question on my mind for a while now and I was hoping you all might be able to assist. First off I'd like to stat that I am not a religious person, however my background is baptist. I consider myself Agnostic for the most part. I want to believe in something, I crave it, but fail to find any concrete evidence. A few things I'd like to Beleive is that there is a God and an Afterlife. I have a hard time understanding Athiests. what troubles me most is their conviction in there lack of beliefs, and how it seems they want more than anything to be right about their conclusions, such as no God and no Afterlife. I can't understand wanting to think this way, I don't understand how someone can be content with the idea that once they die, they will cease to exist in any form. To me that seems like a very dark and gloomy reality, one in which I would have very little motivation to do well in life or to go after the things I want since in the end it will amount to exactly nothing. So what I'm hoping is to hear responses from those of you who do not believe in a God or an afterlife and how it is that you are content with the reality that such a belief system entails. I'd just like to add, I'm not here to bash anyones beliefs, I'm only trying to learn to appreciate and understand better the beliefs of others. I'm hoping I made my intentions clear, I tend to ramble on.

Thanks

Wow i really wish zombie jesus would come online and share his opinion on this topic.
I always love what he writes, he offers such an insightful, informative easy to understand view into rational thinking and just how wrong everyone else is.

Oh well.

I for one am more concerned with truth than emotional comfort. As far as eternal life in concerned, I believe an after life would cheapen the experience of living.

As for being content with reality, I can say that I for one am not, however this is not going to make myself to believe in unrealistic possibilities to restore my lust for life.

Whoa. Head-rush.

Anyyyywayyyyy....
Maybe you should read a few books. I mean, if you are REALLY interested and looking for some fulfillment, you could take the easy way out and just ask someone and get sucked into the born-again insanity and fall headfirst into phony faith. OR...you could check out 4 or 5 books at a time, skim through some, and THINK about how you feel about spirituality, faith, humanity, organized religion, your culture and the culture of others unfamiliar to you. No quick solution. Some people spend a lifetime looking. Just DON'T take the easy way out. That's lame.

I am not an Athiest, but I feel as though I may be able to give you some kind of insight as I myself was found in this catagory you find yourself now. I wanted to believe in something, I searched every religion I could and I devoured all that they had that I saw truth in. Ultimately I found myself content with simply searching for truth rather than a denomination or sect.
All religions of the earth have many fundumental problems. The main flaw being hipocrisy.

As far as believing there is a god, there are many gods that humans worship. The muslim God[allah] who tends to be more violent than most. The christian God who tends to be more accepting than others. The christian Jesus who tends to be all forgiving no matter how bad a person you are, and how bad you continue to be he will always forgive you and wash "or cover up" your sins with his blood. The jewish god who tends to be an intermediate between islam and christianity. These are only a few examples but the point im making is these gods are all man made. God was made to fit their concepts and their schedual. Any spirit is a false god, It was manufactured by/for humans. There are many many Spirits mascarading in peoples hearts as their god. In this world an evil property is required for there to be a good property. Without darkness what would light be? Without good there would be no evil. The compliments allow for stability. If you lived eternally in light you would not know it was light unless there was something to compare it with, such as darkness. Pain to pleasure, hate to love. Ultimately I believe we all possess a small portion of divinity although the ego will not allow it to be seen. Yet we have a sensation that it is there.

If it is answers or truth you are seeking for look inward 1st. You come with an instruction manual. even if someone were to tell you the absolute truth you would not be able to perceive it in your brain unless you can percieve it in your mind.

Before I became Christian I would of labeled myself as agnostic, and even a part of my life where I didnt believe in God. But there was always something inside of me that tugged at my soul, and I felt like there was something out there, something fantastic and awesome. From having those thoughts manifested in me, my journey began and even though I have found what I have been looking for, the journey never ends.

To me, the idea of God belittles the reality of the universe. I get a much deeper spiritual feeling viewing the universe as a phenomenon that came about naturally than I do viewing it as a creation of some God for reasons beyond us.

I also find the idea of an eternal afterlife scary, because eternity means eternal boredom and no final release from life.

Cradle: Good post.

I personally think an afterlife doesn't really fit anywhere. This life here and now can be heaven at times, and hell at times.
The essence of my physical being will probably live on after my consciousness has diminished, as part of plants and such.

There's no reason for the individual consciousness to live on after death. :\

so when we create is it not natural? when humans are created and brought into this world do they not partake in a natural process?

I'm not sure why it troubles you that Atheists have conviction in their non-belief... and I wonder why you perceive that Atheists want more than anything to be right.



If we cease to exist then we won't know about it, so why would we care? Personally, I have some small hope that there's something more than this life, but I accept that there may not be and that doesn't prevent me from living a productive and happy life. Why should the idea of the next life make me want to do more with this one, and the absence of another life make me want to do nothing with this one? Surely the idea that we get one shot at this makes us more eager to cram as much into this existence as is humanly possible.

Why does it amount to nothing if there is no afterlife? You're here, there are things you want, getting them will make you happy presumably... why not go for them?

There seems to be a misconception held by those who do believe in an afterlife (generally those who believe in heaven and hell), that those who don't believe in it feel no motivation to do well when there's no reward at the end of the trail. But being here in the here and now is its own reward. When we look out of the window and see a glorious sunset, does the person who believes in an afterlife think "oh my, that's beautiful... made even more so by the fact that there is more than this one life"? And does the non-believer think "wow, what a sunset, if only there was an afterlife I would find it even more stunning"? We're all here, living each day, appreciating the beauty around us.



I'm not an Atheist, but I don't believe in the personal god of Christianity, or the concept of heaven and hell. Like I said, I have some small hope that there is something more than this, but that's all it is... hope. If there isn't anything more then I'll not know about it.

How am I content with that? Life is amazing, and I'm happy to be experiencing it. I don't give a great amount of thought to what happens when I die... I'm too busy living.

i personally think talk of an afterlife is from people thinking their so special surely when life ends theres got to be more! why?

we live and breath just like animals but i cant imagine them going around thinking when they die their going to go somewhere really special. are people so afraid of the cold reality of death they conjour up some happy place to go to when they do it takes the sting out of it?
like i said its only my personal point of view but i hold dear this is our 1 go at life so dont waste it, have a goal to reach and dreams to accomplish and if you achieve them before you go your life wil have been worthwhile

I think your right ."the afterlife is a comforting thought for some ,it is better than the stark reality of death which no one relishes .I see no harm in it ,if it makes them feel better but I think they should live their life as if there was nothing else after,that way they will get the best deal .if their wrong they win if their right they win

fullywired

I am not atheist, but i don't understand how you dont understand atheists???

What is hard to understand?? they are thinking and believing the opposite of what we as believers do...its not that hard to understand

I find their beliefs easy to grasp...they believe there is no God, due to no evidence...this includes personal evidence, sounds very logical to me

When we die, we in REALITY do not know for sure where we will go <---this is fact............we only believe we will go to heaven...but in reality WE DONT KNOW FOR SURE, there is a big difference in reality and a belief that guides us

Atheists believe there is no afterlife therefore dont feel the need to care...........they just get on with their lives...and quite a lot of them lead very good lives...if they feel they dont need to hold on to a faith, then so be it

If you believe in your heart - God loves all...........then he knows how people think....he is understanding as to WHY someone would be doubting...its a natural thing

I think because you feel strongly for your belief, you find it hard to think how others feel......<--this is also natural and understandable IMO

Like me - i find it really hard to believe in a bible or Jesus...to me there is only God..as God was around long beofre a bible or jesus...this is my belief...therefore, I am in the same boat as you, when i think of how christians follow a boook and a saviour....I find it hard to imagine it...but lately have come to UNDERSTAND it all

We have atheist threads on here...why not check em out and see how an atheist really feels....

cheers

Why does it bother you what other people believe? Your truth is your truth and you can only live by what you believe. Its not as if what others believe n any way impacts on your reality when it comes to what happens when we die.

This idea that other people's beliefs make you uncomfortable because you are not sure what you believe yourself is a red flag of intolerance to me.

there are other choices. we new-agers accept that "death" is simply another phase. When we die, it is like waking up from a dream into "the real world", and many who have had nde's express that sentiment. the soul is similiar in nature to electrical energy. energy can neither be created nor destroyed; it simply changes form. our lives are a progression. when you die, you return to the place you came from. you may come back here again, or not, depending on your needs. the Creator will never abandon you because you refuse to believe the lies in the new testament, or whichever religion. The Christian churches continue to teach the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. A loving God does not desert his creations. If you want to be an atheist, that's okay; you are still going to the waiting place when you pass on. If you are an atheist, there is a reason for it, and God does not turn away from you because of it. You are not going to some "hell" or "second death"; these are imaginary fictions invented to supress people, and to help force conversion to Christianity. Jesus taught that the "kingdom of God is within you". He meant exactly that, not some mumbo jumbo crap misinterpretation that Xians have twisted it into. God really does love you, and you are not going to hell. Your soul will continue its destiny after leaving your body.

Everyone must seek their own path. When I was seeking mine I went to the library and look up all religions based on an experience I had in the forest. I talk to friend about what happen to me in the forest and he told me to check out Paganism. I found it matched my belief system and I want with it. I had to do some seeking in Paganism to find the right Path and I ended up a Polytheistic Druid. There are many belief systems you just need to find what matches what your experience and your point of view of the Universe. Deism is nice. Check that out. I get a Deism feel about what you wrote.

I think the scariest thing I see here is the potential of picking and choosing a religion. It's not like shopping for a car or some freaking shoes. And that's what I see happening a lot or being implied in the world. "Pick a religion that suits you." It just seems so trite. Like choosing your own eternity. I get a real ookie feeling from it.

Ok I guess I just better pack in Christianity then eh? However people come to their journey is PERSONAL and there's nothing weird about it.

If you look at it from another angle...in a way, it is like picking a new car or new shoes...think about it...........you chose a car, take it for a test drive, you know what you want from a car, and if that car is up to your standards and it makes you feel confortable, then you will want it for yourself...and lots of people worship their cars LOL ..and as for shoes...you could say the same for them...a woman loves to shop for shoes (a lot do) pick out a pair that suits them...they feel confort in them...they wont part with them lol


Religion is no different....they pick out what they feel confort in...what works for them and they stick with it

EDIT ACCCKKKK for crying out loud BM has to freaking edit every last post she makes...cant bloody type to save herself

In my opinion we don't really choose a religion.in the western world ,we are preconditioned with Christianity .we are surrounded with it ,so we have a built in preference for it .it depends where you are born .Just as if you were born in the East ,you would be a muslim or further East a Buddhist .We might fool ourselves into believing we chose it but in reality we are acting like Pavlov's dog .we have been trained to respond to outside stimulus


fullywired

If you're an atheist, yes. I personally just can't pick and choose a belief. I can't decide "As of today, I believe in ghosts" because I experienced something that might be ghostly in nature. It would have to be pretty concrete. As an atheist (not that I am one), I can't imagine something happening that would make me turn to Christianity specifically, unless it was pretty rock-solid iconically Christian in nature.

I guess that's why I hover on the fringes. As fullywired said, we are preconditioned here to lean Christian by society in general, and I recognize that and avoid that. It's almost like religion is a trap to me. Once I accept Christ as my savior, I don't think there is any "unaccepting" allowed. if I decide to become a strict Muslim, I think it should be a lifelong commitment. I'm just not willing to commit to something I can't fully accept a I am expected to. So I do my own thing.

You certainly can say "As of today I believe in ghosts" if you suddenly SAW a ghost and knew that it was a ghost.

I have recently had an experience that was so intertwined with timing and coincidence that impacted me so much it literally jolted me out of Atheism. Almost a resurection of my spirit. And the weirdest part of the whole experience to me was that I had someone who I had never really met who lives halfway across the country, experienced the same awe in the situation from the beginning to its abrupt end. Just shocking to me even now.

I have two choices. I can either believe that God reached out to me.

Or I can say its just an odd sort of coincidence.


Now whichever way I go with this, its a choice. Faith is always a choice. I used to think when I was young that faith would just suddenly LAND on me one day and convince me.

But then I realized that faith is a path. A journey you take if you want to. Do you want to or not?

Welcome to UM, I think you will find plenty of people with plenty of views/opinions who are willing to share them.

You said you'd like to believe in God and an Afterlife... what stops you? After all, "believing" does not require proof. Even atheists believe.. they believe there is no god. These are questions to which you are not going to find external proof for. Even if you read the Bible, Khoran, or any other spiritual guides, the proof offered requires that you first, and sometimes, always approach from a standpoint of belief. What are the questions you are asking yourself that lead you to this stance? Do you believe there is a god, gods/goddesses or not? If you do, then why? And also if you do, then what does that mean to you? How does that belief affect how you live or who you are? Why do you want to believe or not believe in an Afterlife?

You're right, that was exactly what I meant about the ghost statement.

So you had a remarkable experience. What makes it Christian in nature? Why is it not just paranormal? Who says a Christian singular deity was involved or responsible? Maybe someone cast a spell of enlightenment on both of you, and you should be thanking a Wiccan, not Jesus. Like the ghost statement...unless it was CLEARLY Jesus Christ, cross and all, why would you lean Christian? After all, you've been down this path before, right?

OK, so you took your convoluted journey, now you arrive at the door marked "Christian". Open it up. What do you see? A hundred more doors. Your still on your journey. Stop looking for the end. Many people do, and that is where dogma and stagnation, along with intolerance and all the other baggage is picked up.

If you really want to know an "intelligent" atheists mind these are the books to read.If you dare . Scarrry stuff !!

Richard Dawkins-The god delusion
Clinton Richard Dawkins (born March 26, 1941) is a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist, and popular science writer who holds the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University.

Christopher Hitchens-God is not so great
Christopher Eric Hitchens (born April 13, 1949) is an Anglo-American author, journalist and literary critic. Currently living in Washington, D.C., he has been a columnist at Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, The Nation, Slate and Free Inquiry; additionally, he is an occasional contributor to other publications and has appeared regularly in the Wall Street Journal.

Sam harris -The end of faith
A letter to a christian nation

Sam Harris is an American writer. He is the author of The End of Faith (2004), which was inspired by the September 11, 2001 attacks, and which won the 2005 PEN/Martha Albrand Award,[1] and Letter to a Christian Nation (2006), a rejoinder to the criticism the first book attracted. His articles have appeared in Newsweek, The Los Angeles Times, The Times of London, and The Boston Globe.[2]

Harris's writing focuses on neuroscience; philosophy, particularly philosophy of mind; and criticism of religion, which is what he is best known for. He has a degree in philosophy from Stanford University and is currently pursuing a doctorate in neuroscience,[3] conducting research into the neural basis of belief, disbelief, and uncertainty, using functional magnetic resonance imaging.[4]



Anyone else ?
"

you are right on.....amen...great post...

randomhit10

Well I'm not really keen on telling what's happened but ironically "JESUS" had a lot to do with it. So let me just leave it at that.


And I get really annoyed when people like you eqgumby (what's wrong with you today! LOL) chose to patronize me for my spiritual personal choices.

I don't need YOU to tell me there are a hundred more doors. And one of my personal mottos is "Life is a journey not a destination" so I'm not sure what you mean by the "END"?

What do you mean by that?


I've never said it was the end. That's just your narrow minded interpretation of spirituality. Some would say rather, that my journey has just begun.


Ok now I'm hearing Karen Carpenter in my head.

THANKS A LOT!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__VQX2Xn7tI

I disagree with your choices. Dawkin's The God Delusion spends the entire book dissecting RELIGION not God. And Sam Harris is a practicing buddhist. He should have called the book "The End of Other People's Faith"

Statement from Harris:
If I were a Hindu, I might talk about “Brahman,” the eternal Self, of which all individual minds are thought to be a mere modification. But I am not a Hindu. If I were a Buddhist, I might talk about the "dharmakaya of emptiness" in which all apparent things manifest. But I am not a Buddhist.

As someone who is simply making his best effort to be a rational human being, I am very slow to draw metaphysical conclusions from experiences of this sort. The truth is, I experience what I would call the “selflessness of consciousness” rather often, wherever I happen to meditate—be it in a Buddhist monastery, a Hindu temple, or while having my teeth cleaned. Consequently, the fact that I also had this experience at a Christian holy site does not lend an ounce of credibility to the doctrine of Christianity.

My response:
her user name is "born again" that spells baptist to me=religion

Let her decide what to read

I think the bible is a bad choice .How about that ?

Let's stop now or we will be locked again

You have every right to your belief. Peace !

'how it seems they want more than anything to be right -

kinda like the christians , muslims, jews ect ??? each thinking they are right alone ? is that what you mean ?

I'm speaking from a purely academic point of view. You offered your perspective on these Books and I offered mine.

The only time in the entire book that I felt Dawkins came close to even touching on personal faith and God theory is when he talks about the "little purple man" that's an imaginary friend to the woman in the story.

The rest of the book is spent on trashing organized religion. Dawkins doesn't follow his own reasoning.

He argues that God belief is an evolutionary glitch of the memes.


My argument is to question the evolutionary purpose of faith. Which Dawkins SAYS he is going to do. To look into the cause, but rather all he dissects is the effect.

Dawkins taunts readers who view religion in a favorable light: "Do those people who hold up the Bible as an inspiration to moral certitude have the slightest notion of what is actually written in it?" Have they read Deuteronomy 20, which advocates "genocide"; or Leviticus 20, which would get you stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath?

And he has no patience whatsoever for those who, as he sees it, pick and choose those parts of the Bible they take literally while either interpreting or dismissing as archaic those elements they're uncomfortable with.

There's A lot in The God Delusion to grapple with. I'll leave it for Bible scholars and theologians to pick up the gauntlet. But Dawkins is worth reading because he forces non-Orthodox traditionalists to distinguish between God and religion, to contemplate what we mean when we speak about God; to reflect on why we pray; to wrestle with Dawkins's critique of the moral conduct of even God, let alone that of Abraham, Moses and Joshua - which, let's face it, frequently leaves us baffled.

I couldn't have said it better

Thank you for proving my point. Dawkins taunts readers who view RELIGION in a favorable light.


That's not the same as GOD belief. See what he posits is a question against FAITH. But he is really talking about Christianity.

There are plenty of people who believe in GOD but don't believe in the bible. So to me he's mixing things when it makes for a good sound bite.

He also self references a lot which I find a tad egoistic. LOL

The thought of "a god" existing is entirely possible to my thinking.

I'm just not convinced,that is all.

Tell me why i should be ?

Hey like the song goes "you might be right but then again you might be wrong".

I don't see things in black & white.

You see i have this "curse", it's called analytical thought.

takethat it doesn't matter what i think -what you feel and experience are important

Just ignore me


GOSH.. COME TO THINK OF IT I FEEL LIKE A BIG ANNOYING PIMPLE THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SQUEEEZE OUT !

I'm not intending to be patronizing at all. I just find witnessing a "spiritual reawakening" a little odd. I understand it's a personal thing. It's my understanding you have experienced several different religions on a personal level in your life. I just don't believe that YOU believe Jesus has somehow intervened in your life, and it requires you or even impels you to pick a denomination.

By END I mean the idea that you have "arrived" at Christianity (worshiping Jesus as Savior). To me, that requires a lifelong commitment, and implies the end of a search for spirituality.

It's not necessarily narrow minded. I'm just saying that in a search for spirituality, you've found it. There may be more to explore. But if you FOUND Jesus again, I would imagine you don't plan on trading religions again. To do so is just...fickle. And being fickle with religion implies a lack of conviction in my eyes.


Of all the things I may be guilty of, THIS is the one I feel the worst about!

Not really, you seem to think I'm discussing you "personally" why would you be anything to me? A big pimple I'm trying to pop?

Why do you want others to tell you why you should? Its none of anyone elses business what you believe.

Its entirely up to you.

Odd?

ok gumby, how about this. Pick a religion whose beliefs and tenets match most closely to what you have discovered in your life.

As well you SHOULD LOL


I haven't "arrived" I don't see it that way. And its not the end of a search. Not to me. In a search for spirituality I've found that I am always surprised when I think I know how I feel, to find myself tipped over again and again.

The journey is lifelong, not the commitment.

I guess I flow along, as I've said before. Some might say I'm a hypocrite, but I can't help but think of this quote.


"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." -

John Lennon

Summed up nicely. Again, to ME it's important because if....say I witnessed a bonafied miracle....a burning cross in the sky, profile of Jesus, and Mary's voice saying "Follow my son gumby, for he is The Way". A real honest wet-your-pants miracle. Add to that a cross painlessly burned into my skin as a daily reminder of my experience! INDISPUTABLE! (Or heavily medicated, but lets assume not so in this case).

Time for me to be a Christian. The search would REALLY be on then to find someone worthy to share this with. Maybe I would just worship on my own, learn all I could and spend a lot of time reflecting. Regardless, it would be life changing. I am talking about NEVER again doubting. Period. To my way of thinking, THAT's serious.

That type of miracle aside, revr is pretty much spot-on in my humble opinion.

Odd ? I always have been ! LOL

I would be looking for the big projector and loud speaker under my garden hedge.

No kidding! Of course this scenario is assuming there is no room for trickery on a HUMAN level! And does not really need to be that dramatic. I am just trying to convey the sense of a "real" thing in as much as we can do that without getting way left-field metaphysical. Let's not get "literal", that's for another thread!

You just made me think about how I'd react... I'd probably (after checking the hedge) think of aliens next.

Sarcasm. I'll stop now. Someone might equate it to name-calling and I'd like to avoid that. Not generally my "thing". But you have to admit, the witty banter between them looks frighteningly familiar.



We think frighteningly alike SH.

Who the hell is GW ?

Please !! Are we so alike ?

I'm going to ask the adminstrator. What does GW stand for ?

Godless Whispers....you are not entirely like her at all...a lil yes..but not really....I think its prolly best to drop it....I know you arent her

A person that was recently banned that shared similar views to yours. No biggie. I was being sarcastic is all.

I have been reading her posts and never realised she was banned !

It must have been very recently. I don't think we are alike but we do share some of the same views.

My son is on this forum (for pretty long time) and I don't even know his user name.

He is in Majorca right now

We pronounce that - me-yorka LOL

Garys ma & da go there every year without fail...gee it must be so boring to go to the SAME resort every time

It is so beautiful. been there twice. Sonnyboy said he's in ecstasy,I believe it.

My big dream is to go to New Zealand or Cooks Islands !!!