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truethat
QUOTE
With 17 months to go, the 2008 race is already well under way, and the first signs are of a resentful, defensive America

Timothy Garton Ash in New York
Thursday June 7, 2007
The Guardian


We all know Christmas begins earlier every year, but imagine if it were to begin in May. And that's May the year before. This is what's happening with the presidential elections in the US. There are another 17 months until the actual vote next November, but the campaign is well under way. On Tuesday, I watched a television debate between 10 Republican contenders, following a similar one between the Democratic hopefuls last Sunday. At this rate, election fatigue will set in before we've even reached election year. Candidates are not merely nailing their colours to the mast; under media interrogation, they are compelled to take up detailed positions that they'll then find difficult to shift. This is not good for US policy.

Meanwhile, the inhabitant of the White House is, in an important sense, already ex-president Bush. As a key former vice-presidential aide, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, goes to jail for perjury, the Bush administration increasingly resembles a badly shot-up, heavily listing aircraft carrier, limping towards port with, still faintly visible on the bridge, the tattered remnants of a sign proclaiming "Mission Accomplished". Even the Republican candidates in Tuesday's debate either damned Bush with faint praise or praised him with faint damns. Or not so faint. Asked by CNN's Wolf Blitzer what use he would make of ex-president Bush if he became president, congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado said Mr Bush would never darken the doorstep of the White House again.

Yet for another year-and-a-half, Bush will be the most powerful man in the world, invested with the powers needed to block a G8 initiative on climate change, push through an irrelevant and divisive antiballistic missile shield and order a tactical nuclear strike on Iranian nuclear facilities. The one thing he'll find it difficult to do is to put together international coalitions for action based on trust in current US leadership. Apart from anything else, everyone will be looking to his potential successors. This long limbo is not good for the world.
The post-2009 US one begins to glimpse in these early pre-presidential debates is a defensive, resentful, slightly truculent place. Although leading Republican candidates such as John McCain will not accept this, the American people have basically decided that the Iraq war is over and the mission has not been accomplished. It's not a matter of when but how the US withdraws militarily, even if that withdrawal is, in the first instance, only to a few fortified camps and a fortress embassy in the green zone in Baghdad while the carnage and ethnic cleansing continues all around. The lesson that most Americans seem to have drawn is that the US should have less of these foreign entanglements in future, and look to its own.

Both on trade and on immigration, the atmosphere is increasingly protectionist. The fiercest clashes in the Republican debate were about immigration. Partly this was internal politics. Because leading candidate John McCain is co-sponsor of a bill that could have the effect of legalising some 12 million illegal immigrants, other candidates had a chance to score off him. Rudy Giuliani described the bill as "a typical Washington mess". But there's something deeper going on here as well. The undertones of panic recall nothing so much as Europeans agonising about Muslim immigrants in their midst, despite the fact that the majority of migrants here come from a western cultural background, being mainly Spanish-speaking and Christian. "We are becoming a bilingual nation," said one of the candidates, "and that is not good". A sentiment that would be entirely at home on the French or German right.
What remains fundamentally different from the old continent is the way American politicians not merely have religion but wear it on their sleeve. An extreme example is former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee. Answering a question about evolution versus so-called intelligent design, Huckabee, a Southern Baptist minister before he became a politician, said simply: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth." He didn't know when or how exactly God did the business, but do it He certainly did. To say you didn't believe that, he added, was in effect to say that you didn't believe in God. Then he quoted Martin Luther: Here I stand, I can do no other. And he earned, from the audience at St Anselm College, a Catholic liberal arts college in Manchester, New Hampshire, a fair round of applause. In answer to a follow-up question, he said: "If anybody wants to believe that they are the descendants of a primate, they are welcome to do it."

Jesus - I found myself inwardly exclaiming, as a post-Christian European - Jesus, what century are we in? Yet other candidates hastened to second him, albeit in more elliptical ways. John McCain praised the eloquence of "Pastor Huckabee" and went on to say he had no doubt God played some part in "the time before time". (Code-phrase for the Christian right. Decoded: this speaker is one of us, you can give him your vote.) Senator Sam Brownback assured us that "there's a God of the universe that loves us very much and had a part in the process". Well, that's all right then.

But don't think this religiosity is confined to Republican candidates. In an earlier debate, organised by a left-liberal Evangelical group called Sojourners, the three leading Democrat contenders, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Barrack Obama, vied with each other in testifying to the importance of their faith. Edwards did say firmly "I believe in evolution", but he quickly added that "the hand of God today is in every step of what happens with me and every human being that exists on this planet". Asked a painful question about how she coped with Bill's infidelity, Hillary Clinton said she was sustained by "my faith and the support of my extended faith family, people whom I knew who were literally praying for me in prayer chains, who were prayer warriors for me".

Angela Merkel, who chairs this week's G8 summit, comes from a party described as Christian Democrats and a church called Evangelical, but I don't think you'd ever catch her talking about prayer warriors. Next to the Atlantic ocean, this is perhaps the greatest European-American divide. On reflection, I realise I was wrong about Christmas. Over here, it doesn't merely start in May the previous year. In US politics, every day is Christmas.

Saint Anselm's most famous formula was "faith seeking understanding". There is a deeply reasonable argument to be had - and many secular rationalists are conducting it - about the basic claims of this faith. But since religion is not going to disappear from US politics any time soon, there is an equally important exercise which consists of seeking to understand what this religiosity actually implies for Democrat or Republican policies in the world. That is a very different question. Religious American politicians who may seem to secular Europeans to be irrational in one area of their being can be reasonable, rational and liberal in their policies in the world - more so, on occasion, than some secular European leaders. For proof positive, you need look no further than another Clinton, Bill. The candidates' professions of faith merely tell you they are American politicians. Everything else depends on which of God's messengers you get.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/st...2097173,00.html
EmpressStarXVII
I may have a religious side to my personality, but it really makes me edgy and unsure of a political figure who relies on God for wisdom and a good path for leadership. George Bush, case-in-point. We do not need a president with a religious ideology, we need a president who is willing to lead an entire nation. And as far as I can tell, presidents who use religion as their backbone has done no good for the country, let alone the world.

Ugh, Mike Huckabee rolleyes.gif.
eqgumby
I'll say it again, keep religion OUT of politics. it just has no place in running a country and forming global policy.
truethat
Truethat!
Darkwind
I agree keep religion out of it. American politicians pay a lot of lip service to Christian groups and what they really believe or not believe they keep to themselves if they are smart. I don't vote based on religion and nothing turns me off more than a politician spouting his or her religious beliefs.
Bella-Angelique
As a voter I want to know if they are a type of fundamentalist because I just do not trust fundamentalists to be logical and just.
I would not vote for one.
beowulf
QUOTE
I agree keep religion out of it. American politicians pay a lot of lip service to Christian groups and what they really believe or not believe they keep to themselves if they are smart.

It is called "pandering to the masses" and is an old political ploy, dating back to the Romans and maybe even the Greeks. I suspect that with the exception of the Shrub and the Mormon dude none of the others really believe in the religion they are touting. - Da Wolf
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Jul 10 2007, 02:28 PM) *
I'll say it again, keep religion OUT of politics. it just has no place in running a country and forming global policy.

That's easier said than done...try telling that to the politicians here in Northern Ireland...politics is the religion...the whole catholic and protestant fued...all about politics
Oxymoron


I believe that all the Presidential candidates believe in God..... In God we trust that comes from their lord and savior Corporations. All politians believe in the all power full green one.
eqgumby
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 10 2007, 09:20 AM) *
That's easier said than done...try telling that to the politicians here in Northern Ireland...politics is the religion...the whole catholic and protestant fued...all about politics

Which I just can't imagine. The troubles there are (or have been) beyond my understanding. It's a perfect poster-child for NO religion in government.
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 10 2007, 07:20 AM) *
That's easier said than done...try telling that to the politicians here in Northern Ireland...politics is the religion...the whole catholic and protestant fued...all about politics


Geri our system here is also very corrupt,although it isn't officail relgious ideas are very much what we are built on, in god we trust its on the money, in the anthems, in the law..

there is a wonderful book called the 'fundamentals of extremism the christian right in america it touches alot on how the laws are 'bent' to reflect a christain values based system....
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Jul 10 2007, 05:47 PM) *
Which I just can't imagine. The troubles there are (or have been) beyond my understanding. It's a perfect poster-child for NO religion in government.

EXACTLY......pity they didnt see it like that
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Jul 10 2007, 06:00 PM) *
Geri our system here is also very corrupt,although it isn't officail relgious ideas are very much what we are built on, in god we trust its on the money, in the anthems, in the law..

there is a wonderful book called the 'fundamentals of extremism the christian right in america it touches alot on how the laws are 'bent' to reflect a christain values based system....

Nearly every place or thing that is run or managed by people is currupted...even work enviorments.(like my own lol) ...or if you like websites...ect ect ...you name it girly its most likely currupted




Why do people get upset about the - In God we trust written on US Dollars??? would anyone complain as much if someone gave them a cool million of them??

I know i wouldnt LOL laugh.gif
EmpressStarXVII
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 10 2007, 01:31 PM) *
Why do people get upset about the - In God we trust written on US Dollars??? would anyone complain as much if someone gave them a cool million of them??

I know i wouldnt LOL laugh.gif


It's upsetting because there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but thats moot anyway. We all know religion is very much in our government. And I can't lie and say I wouldn't take a million dollars of money either wink2.gif.
Irish
Although I would not vote GWB he does hold the highest office of a very powerful nation, so I feel a little more secure knowing that he is personally accountable to someone higher than himself.

Irish
eqgumby
QUOTE(Irish @ Jul 10 2007, 01:46 PM) *
Although I would not vote GWB he does hold the highest office of a very powerful nation, so I feel a little more secure knowing that he is personally accountable to someone higher than himself.

Irish

Unfortunately Irish, it seems he only answers to that higher power at his own convenience. Maybe he makes room in his schedule for "Him" once in a while, but not often enough. It's a sham to many.
~HaParash~
QUOTE(EmpressStarXVII @ Jul 10 2007, 11:40 AM) *
It's upsetting because there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but thats moot anyway. We all know religion is very much in our government. And I can't lie and say I wouldn't take a million dollars of money either wink2.gif.

Many people don't understand what separation of Church and State is. On the one hand, In God we Trust on the dollar isn't the Government respecting an establishment of religion. On the other hand, God doesn't necessarily mean the Christian God. It could mean, Jehovah, Allah, the Sun God, the Spaghetti Monster, or any of the Pagan Gods. Honestly, since the majority of America claims to be Christian, you live with it. And realize you don't HAVE to be in America. You could always go to the UK.
EmpressStarXVII
QUOTE(Child-Of-Israel @ Jul 10 2007, 02:57 PM) *
Many people don't understand what separation of Church and State is. On the one hand, In God we Trust on the dollar isn't the Government respecting an establishment of religion. On the other hand, God doesn't necessarily mean the Christian God. It could mean, Jehovah, Allah, the Sun God, the Spaghetti Monster, or any of the Pagan Gods. Honestly, since the majority of America claims to be Christian, you live with it. And realize you don't HAVE to be in America. You could always go to the UK.


I don't have a problem with it, I just think it is unnecessary. Whether America is religious or not, God should not even have the chance to be uttered across a politicians lips when regarding their views of policy, or on our federal notes. Afterall, I imagine God wouldn't be too happy to know his name is on notes that can be used for such vile, sinful, and greedy things wink2.gif.
truethat
You mean God might get upset when people use it to snort coke or to roll into a strippers g string? I never thought of that Empress, that's pretty funny!
Lt_Ripley
money and religion. 2 of the biggest of the worlds problems. nothing has caused more grief.
EmpressStarXVII
QUOTE(truethat @ Jul 10 2007, 03:06 PM) *
You mean God might get upset when people use it to snort coke or to roll into a strippers g string? I never thought of that Empress, that's pretty funny!


That shows you where my mind is at laugh.gif
truethat
QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ Jul 10 2007, 07:09 PM) *
money and religion. 2 of the biggest of the worlds problems. nothing has caused more grief.



I think you have forgotten about mankind no?
IamsSon
There is a HUGE difference between saying you turn to God for guidance and actually doing so. One of the members of our congregation recently ran for a seat in the Texas State Senate. However, he ran into a rather big problem for him: In order to get the support of the party, either party, he was heavily "encouraged" to "modify" his stance on certain issues which to him, personally were important. He explained the reason for his stance and although one of the parties allowed him to run under their banner, they didn't support him and were very overt in their support of the other candidate in their party during the primaries. They did this despite knowing that this candidate stood less of a chance to win the actual election, and did in fact lose. What that has shown me, is that the likelihood of any candidate actually being a man with a strong spiritual conviction are rather slim.
Oxymoron



If our leader is guided by a voice's in his head telling him what to do that would explain Iraq.
rev r
So this "secular European" is telling us to vote for Clinton?
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(EmpressStarXVII @ Jul 10 2007, 07:40 PM) *
It's upsetting because there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but thats moot anyway. We all know religion is very much in our government. And I can't lie and say I wouldn't take a million dollars of money either wink2.gif.

Oh course you would take it...only an idiot would turn it down all because it reads in God we trust <---I dont see the big deal..it still pays the rent / mortgage puts food on the table and clothes on your back..........ohhh and if you like keepps your PC going LOL
evancj
QUOTE(Irish @ Jul 10 2007, 12:46 PM) *
Although I would not vote GWB he does hold the highest office of a very powerful nation, so I feel a little more secure knowing that he is personally accountable to someone higher than himself.

Irish


I think the only higher power Bush answers to is Dick Cheny
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(EmpressStarXVII @ Jul 10 2007, 11:40 AM) *
It's upsetting because there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but thats moot anyway. We all know religion is very much in our government. And I can't lie and say I wouldn't take a million dollars of money either wink2.gif .

Indeed, it is a given...i wouldn't either Empress... We have plenty and I'd like to see all have shelter food and health care globally....

its very corrupt our goverment in many ways embarrassing IMO we give less than 1% to help other a countries it has so much it lets people starve and do without. and calls it the american dream......

i and many others have opted out of the political system., as is, its impaired beyond usefullness.....
eqgumby
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Jul 10 2007, 04:41 PM) *
Indeed, it is a given...i wouldn't either Empress... We have plenty and I'd like to see all have shelter food and health care globally....

its very corrupt our goverment in many ways embarrassing IMO we give less than 1% to help other a countries it has so much it lets people starve and do without. and calls it the american dream......

i and many others have opted out of the political system., as is, its impaired beyond usefullness.....

Pish, we also have more immigrants here than any other country, legal and illegal. We suck, but they keep on coming don't they....
EmpressStarXVII
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Jul 10 2007, 05:41 PM) *
i and many others have opted out of the political system., as is, its impaired beyond usefullness.....


I am starting to feel the same way myself. I am greatly disappointed in the actions of our new congress, not to mention a disappointment in REELECTING a....well, you get the idea. My faith has slowly dwindled for the political system, especially from here on out I see no hopeful future for a genuinely honest candidate that not only believes in making a better America, but doing it.
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(EmpressStarXVII @ Jul 10 2007, 05:39 PM) *
I am starting to feel the same way myself. I am greatly disappointed in the actions of our new congress, not to mention a disappointment in REELECTING a....well, you get the idea. My faith has slowly dwindled for the political system, especially from here on out I see no hopeful future for a genuinely honest candidate that not only believes in making a better America, but doing it.


I concur Empress, until at whcih time the system is even legit as opposed to the profound corruption and the great lie even resembles a truth "your vote counts' i and many see little hope for change via the political system either ..there is a movement where i am .... called my vote is i don't vote... it is futile.. I have never voted, and most likely never will ...

i find other ways to be the differnce many create their own...
John A Spera
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Jul 11 2007, 12:49 AM) *
I concur Empress, until at whcih time the system is even legit as opposed to the profound corruption and the great lie even resembles a truth "your vote counts' i and many see little hope for change via the political system either ..there is a movement where i am .... called my vote is i don't vote... it is futile.. I have never voted, and most likely never will ...

i find other ways to be the differnce many create their own...


Sadly I agree with you about voteing, however I hope the day will come when we can use the election process for humane improvements.
chaostrom
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Jul 10 2007, 08:29 PM) *
Pish, we also have more immigrants here than any other country, legal and illegal. We suck, but they keep on coming don't they....


Pfft, that's because of the "American Image". The people are nicer than expected, but I can tell ya, I was very disappointed for the most part when I moved to the states.
Darkwind
In God we trust wasn't put on money until Eisenhower.

QUOTE
1957 In God We Trust
Paper currency was first issued with "In God We Trust" as required by Congress in 1955. The inscription appears on all currency Series 1963 and beyond.
http://www.ronscurrency.com/rhist.htm


It is about the time God was added to the pledge.

QUOTE
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm


I think God should be removed from the money and the pledge.
The Gods don't care about money or countries.

If money is the root of all evil why would you put God on it. Kind of an insult to God don't you think.
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