God gave man free will knowing the outcome already, he already figure out the mathmatics of human free will eventually gonna take us throough a lot of bad time to get to the good. The plan is for man to figure out by himself why he must be good and why these rules were made, instead of forcing it on them, its better we experience it. That why i get kind of confused about the snake in the garden and adam and eve. To me the snake in a way gave us equal rights to know good and evil now instead of later cause eventually we would have to encounter evil and know how to deal woith it. so the snake sort of leveled the field for us so we can start our real juorney into being sona and daughters of God knowing good/evil.

What do you think?

Both outlooks are interesting and both have their problems.

The serpent within religion wasn't always recognized as something Evil. The origin of the story comes from Sumerian culture and maybe even before then. The serpent was connected to the god Enki / Ea who was the creator and protector of mankind.

Enki was one of a triad of Sumerian Gods but in terms of rank was third in importance, so he wasn't the high god. These were: An (the heaven-god), Enlil (the air-god), En-ki (the water god).

Enki is known as the god who gave us wisdom and intelligence as well as the one who physically created mankind.

See: Enki / Ea

The serpent was connected to wisdom, magic and Guardianship, all attributes given to Enki as well.

In the Hebrew Bible (the Tanach) of Judaism, the speaking serpent (Hebrew nahash) in the Garden of Eden brought forbidden knowledge, but was not identified with Satan in the Book of Genesis. "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made," Genesis 3:1 reminded its readers. Nor is there any indication in Genesis that the Serpent was a deity in its own right, aside from the fact that the Pentateuch is not otherwise rife with talking animals. Although the identity of the Serpent as Satan is made explicit in the later writings of the Hebrew prophets and the New Testament of the Bible, in Genesis the Serpent is merely portrayed as a deceptive creature promoting as good what God had directly forbidden, and particularly cunning in manipulating truth toward its deceptive ends. (cf. Gen. 3:4-5 and 3:22)

Though it was cursed for its role in the Garden, this was not the end of the serpent, who continued to be venerated in the folk religion of Judah and was tolerated by official religion until the in time of king Hezekiah.

A conversion of a rod to a snake and back was believed to have been experienced by Moses and later by his brother Aaron according to Islamic, Christian, and Jewish hagiography.

In Christianity, a connection between the Serpent and Satan is strongly made, and Genesis 3:14 where God curses the serpent, is seen in that light: "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life". Some feel that this seems to indicate that the serpent had legs prior to this punishment. But if the lying serpent was in fact Satan himself (as he is called THE serpent or dragon), rather than an ordinary snake simply possessed by Satan, then the reference to crawling and dust is purely symbolic reference to his ultimate humiliation and defeat.

In the Gospel of Matthew 3:7, John the Baptist calls the Pharisees and Saducees visiting him a "brood of vipers". Later in Matthew 23:33, Jesus himself uses this imagery, observing: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Gehenna?" ("Hell" is the usual translation of Jesus' word Gehenna.)

Although in the minority, there are at least a couple of passages in the New Testament that do not present the snake with negative connotation. When sending out the twelve apostles, Jesus exhorted them "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16).

See: Serpent Symbolism

It is pointless to put too much stock in the Genesis serpent story becasue it is no more than a garbled retelling of Adapa and the Southwind. Enki "The Great Serpent Dragon Who Stands In Eridu" to quote one of his hymns build the garden of Eden and had a servant named Adam that he tricked out of eternal life, which unlike the Hebrew retelling, was not intended for every man, but as a specific reward for Adam. Enki's brother Enlil, is also called a dragon and is the creature responsible for the great flood. It was Enki who warned the Sumerian Noah, not Enlil who would be transformed into Yahweh. Both of these "dragon servants" or demi gods, served the creator Anu, who is comparable to Elohim the true creator. Yahweh/Enlil is one of the "Sons of Elohim" just as is Enki/Satan. This is why Yahweh ordered the Brazen serpent made (actually a winged dragon like figure). This was his personal idol, and Israel prospered as long as it was worshipped.

In Judaism Satan is simply an assistant to Yahweh, not an opponent, which is more in line with the original Sumerian theology that states they are brothers. And this makes sense since they are both referred to as the "Sons of Elohim" The Evil "Opponent Satan stems from the Zoroastrian dualism that Christianity is largely based upon. The Christians renamed the Zoroastrian Ahriman-dragon to Satan.

Dc interesting as all get out... thanks for posting...

Wow. Nice posts. I learned a lot today!!!!!! Thanks, Jody

Interesting theory. What I'm asking is why the whole game entirely. Why Did God create Evil in the first place. Maybe God's bored and our reality is just one of his playstation games he likes to play to pass time. hopefully he doesn't get even furthur bored with us and just turns off his console.

Sometimes i believe the bible is switching up Gods or something in certain point like in Babylon when men came together and the God seem threaten by men get along in the name of evolving there culture. Seeing this they decide to punish man by splitting them and changing there language causing more confusion. This doent sound like any friend of man, it seems like a jealous creature bent on holding man back once again.

Babylon do seem like America though the more i read but i hope not.

Evil has to exist, it is the polar opposite of good. But evil can be manipulated and used to better the creation, and it can be controlled and casted out, but it will always be the opposite of good.

You are right, but it is not the Bible's fault. The Bible says there is one creator God, just as the Sumerian stories that Genesis is based on. This God is Elohim, (Anu to the Sumerians). This God had assistants that in Sumeria have the title of "Great Serpent Dragons from Heaven". In the Bible they are called "The Sons of Elohim", the best known being Enki-Satan who built Eden and tricked Adam, and Enlil-Yahweh his brother, who flooded the Tigris Euphrates basin, though fundamentalists believe it was the whole world. They are also called Seraphim, the highest of heavenly creatures, and a word that in Hebrew means "fiery flying serpents' (as explained in the Jewish Encyclopedia. When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek, It was the Jewish Rabbis themselves that translated the word Seraphim to Dragons (Greek Drakones). And this is [proven in the Dead Sea Scroll), something that the Roman Catholic Church could not tamper with, like the rest of the Bible.

The problem is that one group of Hebrews decided to make Yahewh the ONE and ONLY God, contrary to what the Bible actually says. And Christianity confused this even more by turnings Yahweh's brother Enki-Satan into the Evil Devil Dragon Ahriman.

It is amusing, that even though Christianity imitated so much from the Zoroastrian religion, the one part they did not accept was the scirptures that stated that Yahweh of the Bible is a dragon who is the brother of Ahriman, the evil dragon that opposes their God AhuraMazda. Even Jesus warned the pharisees that the God they worshipped (Yahweh) was NOT His father, but a "murderer" from the beginning (like the dragon Enlil who flooded at least Sumeria). Gnostic Christians also said Yahweh was not Jesus' father, but a heavenly dragon. (Seraphim)., And Yahweh confirms this himself when he orders Moses to make his idol, a winged brazen serpent-dragon, and Israel prospered so long as the idol was worshipped. When Hezakiah destroyed the idol of Yahweh, disaster soon befell Israel. Its all in the Bible, but Christians ignore this because they want to imagine their God as "an old guy with a long white beard on a throne". They have forgotten the creator God, Elohim, and worship one of his created "dragon" assistants called Yahweh, that even in the bible behaves much more like a "dragon" than a creator God. And the Bible even describes with spewing fire from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils and "consuming" disobedient priests and worshippers.

Excellent, informative responses Y'all. Heres my two cents:

Look at the original text-"God"= Yaldaboath tells them, ". . . the day you eat of it, you shall surely die." He didn't say 'you'll die someday' or 'you'll die spiritually', etc., etc.

Did they die? So, who's the liar in this story? And, while its true that the serpent wasn't originally associated with Satan or Lucifer, who was the agent of enlightenment/illumination in this story?

p.s.-Rob, love your avatar. Thats one of my favorite photos, my second favorite is the the one of that lone Chinese student facing down a tank in Tiananmen Square. (Why we didn't step in there and support the revolution . . . makes ya wonder what our gov. is REALLY about. But, thats another subject for another thread.)

First off, there is no Lucifer -- period. This is a later Christian invention that Jesus or Judaism never acknowledged.

Although the Old Testament does not identify Satan in the garden of eden. this is probably becasue the story was so messed up by then they couldn't possibly know. But we do know from the much older Sumerian stories preserved on clay tablets 1000 years before the Bible was started, that Enki, who was an assistant God to the Creator, built the garden of Eden, was called a great serpent dragon of heaven, was very wise, and tricked his human servant named Adam out of eternal life. This is clearly the original Eden story before illiterate Hebrew shepherds mixed the story up after centuries of retelling around the campfires as an oral tradition.

Two problems:

Yaldaboath? I'm afraid that isn't in the text nor can you interpret God as the being called Yaldaboath / Samael from the scriptures. The actual words here would be "Yĕhovah 'elohiym" (Lord God) which I'm sure we all know to be the two principle names referring to GOD.

Yĕhovah - can be translated to "The Eternal", "The Immutable". This name is derived from the idea of "being" and "existence". It adds up since God refers to himself as the "I AM" which comes to the same thing.

'elohiym - a pluralistic word that means rulers, judges, divine ones, angels or gods. This specific example is in the plural intensive but with a singular meaning and can be translated as god, goddess, godlike one, works or special possessions of God and the (true) God.


The 2nd problem is equaly easy to note:

The word for day here is the word "yowm". The meaning of the word is not as straightforeward as you make it sound just as the english word can be used with varying degrees and forms of meaning.

yowm

1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)

b) day (24 hour period)

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)

d) time, period (general)

e) year

f) temporal references

1) today
2) yesterday
3) tomorrow

So could you please tell me how you can come up with that imaginative interpretation when this has been studied extensively by both Jews and christians for thousands of years? So they are all wrong and your interpretation is the correct one?



Yes they did die. The death was twofold: Spiritual death 1st (seperation from the presence of God) and then as a result of sin and being unable to partake of the Tree of life » physical death came about. As can be seen all this can be encompassed in the meaning of "day" which can be taken to mean a period of time.

Now I wonder who is lying? ( or rather putting their own twist so that they can liberally interpret things the way they desire)

It is interesting to note the use of the words "enlightenment/illumination". Ever hear of the Illuminati or the Freemasons? They follow your kind of reasoning as well and we know that these oranizations have always been known to practice "Satan worship" in a disguised form. After all doesn't "Lucifer" mean "Morning Star" or "bright light"? He was and still is known as the "Angel of light".

To me, the parallels between the serpent of Genesis and the Greek figure Prometheus are hard to ignore. Prometheus brought "fire" to humankind and was punished, but what does fire symbolize here? A clue is in the name Prometheus itself-- it means "forethought," which is synonymous with the "knowledge of Good and Evil" that the serpent tempted mankind to take for himself. So it's hard for me to see the serpent as other than a Promethean figure, or vice-versa, if you prefer.

This points to the common Babylonian origin of both myths as outlined by DC above. They are different, however, in that the Greek version retains and refines the idea of the fire-bringer as a sympathetic character. This relates to the question posed by the original poster: Is the serpent really all bad? Not in the Greek version, he isn't.

What is interesting is how the Greek concept comes full circle and merges again with the Semitic version. Prometheus survives into medieval Christendom (via the Gnostics?) as Lucifer, "the dawn-bringer," and this figure is in turn retrofitted by Christians onto various figures that appear in the Jewish texts that Christianity appropriated-- including the serpent of Genesis. How exactly this figure becomes the bad guy in a dualistic pantheon is all raveled up in the politics and power struggles of the day. I'm not convinced that this kind of dualism is necessary to Christianity, but it has certainly come to characterize it.

Long story short, yes, there's plenty of reason to view the serpent with more equanimity than Christian tradition demands.

This is the kind of thing I'm referring to when I say "the politics and power struggles of the day" ("the day" being that time when Christian doctrine and mythology were being sorted out). To me, it is not clear at all that "that these oranizations have always been known to practice 'Satan worship' in a disguised form." It is that the Church saw fit to characterize the conduct of competing groups as "Satan worship" and such, and this is precisely how the Lucifer or "Dawn Star" figure, which was meant to stand for a type of enlightenment, became associated with with the "forces of darkness." It was political. Those groups did not worship "the Devil," but they revered something that the Church found it necessary to call the Devil.

Kind of like when the Communist says that George W. Bush is Satan. Does that mean Republicans hold Satan in high esteem? No. It means that one faction finds it necessary to demonize the other. This is easy to see when it relates to the politics of the time we know. It's more obscure when the politics are the better part of a millenium old.

John's Revelation pretty much sums it up. The fate of Satan, as well as the reseurection ideas, in Christianity are taken from Zoroastrianism. So the Christians desperately searched for an Ahriman character in the Old Testament, and the closest thing was Satan, which apparently is a "Dragon" by the Jewish definition of the Seraphim. This contradicts the old tstament however becasue Yahweh claims he is responsible for all good or evil. But the pagans who flocked to Christianity preferred a dualistic religion of Good and evil "gods" fighting each other in an apocolyptic battle. Jews could not accept Satan as this dualistic enemy of God, becasue throughout the Old Testament he is God's obedient servant. But the Greek pagans who devloped Chrisianity knew very little Hebrew. This is how they invented a fallen angel named Lucifer out of the Prince of Tyre, a very human ruler of a human place.

I'll buy that analysis in broad terms. But is it true that we can equate Hellenism with dualism? In the case of the mystery cults that provided the theological framework for Christianity, the answer is apparently "yes." But there were decidedly more ambivalent lines of thought in the Hellenistic world, and I wonder if any vestiges of those survive in sympathetic treatments of "Lucifer" (which were of course condemned as heretical).

No hellenism is not dualistic, but Greeks were interested in mystery cults that were dualistic, hence the popularity of Christiainity, which essentially took zoroastrianism, which in its pure form was not acceptable to Hellenes becasue it was Persian, but put the same dualism and resserection mysteries of persia, put put them into the more acceptable "package" of being a Jewish cult. Judaism had a respectability among the Greeks and Romans for their scriptures were quite ancient, and there were many highly educated Jews in Alexandria. It was very difficult for a pagan to convert to "true" Judaism, but much easier to become a Christian.

Remember "Lucifer" would not even be around for hundreds of more years, he was unkown to Judaism and the earliest Christians because he was not invented until the 5th century AD as I recall, by Romans who did not understand Hebrew. Most Biblical scholars will confirm what the Jews always knew, there is NO fallen angel called Lucifer in the Bible. And this is why he is in NO early Christians scripture. He was simply added to the Roman Catholic mythos like all the Saints to replace the pagan demigods. But Satan WAS treated sympathetically by both Judaism (because he is an obedient servant of God in the Holy Torah), and by some Gnostics, who unlike the Romans ignorant of Hebrew, were based in the center of learning at Alexandria and KNEW the Hebrew scriptures did not demonize Satan as did the John and Paul's Christianity based on Perisan Zoroastrianism.

So what you are tryna say is that enlil and enki are two dragon brothers who are playing chess with human kind for fun disobeying Elohim. Yahweh is not Jesus and the dragon brother are not cool, but elohim is there father the true God. Is this what you are saying.

So is elohim a dragon or a spirit and is it ture that spirit took over the dragon race or they just turned into that.

To say that the Hebrew scrolls are a retelling of sumeraian folk lore is folly. The Hebrews were the ones who actually penned scritpure that was void of the paganistic creatures you are fond of. The concept of the Hebrew God is that God is a spirit not some winged freak creature. In fact the Genesis account bears little resemblence at all to what you are saying. I suppose if we were made in the image of God according to you then we should all look like "Puff the magic dragon".

You know that DC puts his own spin in everything. Serpents become dragons, Seraphim become dragons, God is a dragon and so forth. If it doesn't include dragons you won't find DC around. But we like him anyway, he's got an interesting outlook on the whole thing, even if it isn't based on any factual evidence.

Agreed! At the very least he has caused me to check and re-check various texts. The last one I examined was The Jewish Study Bible and they have commentary on the Seraphim being Angels and cite Gamaliel's theology that predates Maimonodes. There is just simply 100% no Hebrew correlation to his theory, perhaps in other texts and lore but not Hebrew.

Of course they are a retelling. Where did you think they came up with a story about a dragon in a garden called eden, who had a human servant named Adam that he tricked out of eternal life. This was ALL written down by the Sumerian 1000 years before the earliest part of the Bible was written. And it shouldnot be a surprise, for Abraham came from Ur, just a few miles from Eridu, where the Dragon Enki built his Garden of Eden.

The problem Moondoggy is that you know absolutely nothing about middle eastern religion beyond the Bible. These Sumerian stories were written down a 1000 years before the Old Testament stories were. I am not saying it is all a fable, I'm saying that if the God of the Bible is real, the much older records are a more accurate telling of the story.

I never said the Creator looked liked a dragon, nor do the original Sumerian stories of the Creator. But his servant creatures/ sub gods/ Sons of Elohim/ seraphim were dragons, just as the Hebrew scriptures say.

The Hebrew scriptures were not void of the dragons. The Dead Sea Scrolls PROVE that the later Christians and Jews bastardized the real holy scriptures. The Seraphim are translated to DRAGONS in the Dead Sea Scrolls, long before any Pope could rewrite the Bible. In fact the Dead Sea Scrolls Deuteronomy confirms Yahweh is just another "Son" of Elohim, exactly as his dragon brother Enki/Satan.

For me it was the Mesopotamian and Sumerian Myths, he made me go looking for the correlations that would give his theories credence, unfortunately the dragon interpretation in these myths is virtually non existent in all the myths I've come across until now, sure there is a snake in one but that is about it...

I also agree that one cannot correlate the Genesis accounts with the Sumerian myths even if there are one or two points in common...

Of course in Hebrew. Who do you think wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls? And why are there dragons on the Sacred Menorah in the Temple? And why do Rabbincal laws of the time specifically state the HOLY way a dragon must be depicted? And why does the JEWISH Encyclopedia state the earliest depictions of the Seraphim were FIERY FLYING SERPENTS? And why was a flying serpent worshipped in Solommons temple for hundreds of years. The more you harp to discredit me just proves to everyone here that you, (and Jorel as well) know virtually nothing about the Bible. You have never proven me wrong on a single point on these forums. And others are beginning to see, and say, the same thing.

Yahweh is a dragon just as his brother Satan. Jesus said as much to the Pharisees. "the murderer from the beginning" and NOT his "father" Elohim. But I think there is a prophecy about how MOST of the people in the end times will be worshipping the dragon (Yahweh). You see, you are on the "wrong" side and don't even know it! You think this refers to people worshipping Satan when it really isn't. Satanists don't believe in Satan, they are simply mocking the worshippers of Yahweh, worshippers of the dragon brother of Satan, like you!

All of the high Sumerian Gods are called "Great Serpent Dragons of Heaven", including the one that built the Garden of Eden (Enki), and the one that created the great flood (Enlil). So if you cannot find the "correlation" I feel sorry for you.

One or two points in common? What a joke.

Do you think it is a coincidence that the Sumerian story has:

1. A talking serpent dragon that lives in a Garden called EDEN?

2. That he has a human servant named ADAM

3. That he tricks ADAM out of ETERNAL LIFE?

This was all preserved on clay tablets 1000 years older than the original Bible.

By default then you also agree with Islam that their telling of the stories of Abraham and Mohammed is a true version.

Common sense dictates that the oldest written account of historical events are going to be more accurate than ones tainted by embellishments caused by 1000 years of oral tradition by illiterate shepherds. There was no Eve in the original Story of Adam in Eden, because it would not be until the Hebrew Shepherds needed a story to blame man's downfal on women (to justify the slave like way nomads treated their women) that Eve was added to the story. And in the oriignal, Adam did not lose immortality for all mankind, for it was never intended for all mankind. Adam was merely being recruited to bcome an angel. That's all th original story is about. Men lived and died for centuries before Adam, just as science has revealed.

No, Anu-Elohim the creator is never referred to as a dragon, and may be a formless intelligence. He could not be a dragon for a dragon would be either a created thing, or more probably an evolved thing probably related to the dinosaurs or pterosaurs of our ancient past.

Enlil and Enki are not necessarily evil, in fact Enki was well-loved in Sumerian culture, but later hated hundreds, even thousands of years later when renamed "Satan", but this is largely becasue the original stories were misinterpreted by later cultures. At a certain point, the hebrews melded Elohim the formless creator, and Enlil-Yahweh, a tribal protector dragon into the same being. Jesus seems to be saying when he admonished the Pharisees that the creator, and who he considered his father, was not the creature the pharisees worshipped, who is Enlil-Yahweh. He called their God the "Murderer from the Beginning" perhaps becasue Enlil-Yahweh killed enormous numbers of people in a great flood, probably restricted to the Mesopotamian Basin, and not the more fanciful world flood which science says is impossible. There is undeniable archaeological evidence or the original Mesopotamian flood, which fits the Biblical timeline quite closely. Whether Enlil-Yahweh actually caused this or whether it was a natural disaster and simply attributed to him is conjecture, though our ancient human ancestors all over the world believed these "dragon gods" could control the rain.

No, a talking serpent lives in the Garden of Eden, not a dragon, and never depicted as a dragon anywhere or by anyone except you. A dragon is not a serpent and a serpent is not a dragon. They are two distinct species.

Some scholars understand Eden is Sumerian E.DIN, the great semi-arid plain of Lower Mesopotamia (where lay ancient Akkad and Sumer) crossed by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and I am in agreement with this understanding.

Three CONTRADICTING Mesopotamian myths reveal man was created in three cities: Eridu, Nippur and Babylon by the gods Enki (Ea), Enlil (Ellil) and Marduk (biblical Merodach). Other myths, the so-called "Ewe and Wheat" and "Eridu Genesis Myth," state that primeval man aimlessly wanders a steppe (edin), abandoned and ignored by the gods, in a state of nakedness with wild animals for companions, eating grass and lapping water at waterholes before the goddess Nintur takes him from this place of desolation and has him build cities for the gods and care for their city gardens.

Many Mesopotamian locations or sites" are bound up in Yahweh-Elohim's "Garden in Eden" account from differing myths involving different characters. That is to say, EVERY MESOPOTAMIAN CITY had its GOD'S GARDEN in which man worked, to provide food for the god. There is NOT A GARDEN IN EDIN, but MANY GOD'S CITY GARDENS IN EDIN. The Hebrews in "recasting" the Mesopotamian myths are REFUTING this fact, replacing the many GOD'S CITY-GARDENS IN EDIN with ONE GOD'S GARDEN IN EDEN, portraying it as "unassociated" with a city; another Hebrew _refutation_ of the Mesopotamian belief that a God's garden is an aspect of the city the god dwells in. Genesis has Cain building the world's first city, Enoch, AFTER THE EXPULSION from the Garden in Eden. Genesis is refuting, challenging and denying the Mesopotamian understanding of how man came to be created and PLACED IN A GOD'S CITY GARDEN to care for it.

The human servent in Sumerian myths is ADAPA not ADAM and no real evidence has come about that they imply to be the same individual, quite the contrary though:

See: Adam vs Adapa

Yes, both are tricked out of eternal life but for completely different reasons. So much so that no real parallel can be established beyond that simple coincidence.

The following is the original myth of Adapa and the South wind which you so love to use as a comparison, I'll let everyone decide on the existence or not of such parallels for themselves.

Adapa and the South Wind / Adapa and the Food of Life

From personal reading we can see quite clearly that Enki did not trick Adapa out of eternal life but was merely protecting Adapa from the vengeance of his fellow Gods. The texts evidences this quite clearly. Enki merely underestimated his fellow Gods ability to see true repentence. This is quite different from the account we have in Genesis as anyone can clearly see.

And finally:


Yes, and there are only two links that come up when searching this. Crystallinks who are proponents of Sitchins alien spacemen as well as the Urantia papers and another by Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M. A. Ed. All others do not use the term or are spin offs from these two.

See: Crystallinks / Dragons

See: Serpent Dragon

Also it should be noted that all cylinder seals that represent Enki or any other Gods of Sumerian Mythology have them appearing in human form.









On both cylindar Seals above Enki can be identified by the flowing rivers from his shoulders since he is the God of the "running waters" a metaphor for life giver.

Enki was considered a god of life and replenishment, and was often depicted with two streams of water emanating from his shoulders, one the Tigris, the other the Euphrates. Alongside him were trees symbolising the male and female aspects of nature, each holding the male and female aspects of the 'Life Essence', which he, as apparent alchemist of the gods, would masterfully mix to create several beings that would live upon the face of the earth.

In character Enki is not a jester or trickster god, he is never a cheat, although fooled he is not a fool. Enki uses his magic for the good of others when called upon to help either a god, a goddess or a human. Enki is always true to his own essence as a masculine nurturer. He is fundamentally a trouble-shooter god, and avoids or disarms those who bring conflict and death to the world. He is the mediator whose compassion and sense of humour breaks and disarms the wrath of his stern half-brother, Enlil, king of the gods. He is the Challenger who tests the limits of Inanna in the myth Enki and Inanna and the Me and then concedes graciously his defeat by the young goddess of Love and War, by strengthening the bonds between Eridu and her city of Uruk. So he becomes the Empowerer of Inanna.

He is the lord of the Apsu (Akkadian, Abzu in Sumerian, hence Greek and English Abyss) , the fresh-water ocean of groundwater under the earth.

See: Enki's Portrayal

It should be noted that Enki's central position was as a creator, either of the world or of man. He is normally represented as half goat-half fish. It is from this that modern astrology has developed the figure of Capricorn.

His symbols included a goat and a fish, symbols at the opposite ends of the year (Pisces and Capricorn) which later combined into a single beast, the Capricorn, which became one of the signs of the zodiac.

It is suggested that the name Enki came from Semitic or Sumerian, and meant "House of Water".
Enki was in earlier religions the local god of Eridu, but developed into a major god. His temple in Eridu was called "House of Apsu." Here there was a tree called kiskanū with branches that were used in special rituals. During the ceremonies, the priests represented Enki, and appeared in robes showing a fish-like figure.

In remote times, according to this myth, when men lived in a lawless manner like beasts, Ea /Enki appeared from the sea. Part man and part fish, the double-headed god instructed men in handicrafts, farming, letters, laws, architecture, and magic. He softened the primitive rudeness and since that time nothing has been added to improve on his teaching. After a day of instruction Ea /Enki retired into the sea, whence the divine fish man made only three other appearances over a period of thousands of years.

Enki in Sumerian astronomy also represented the planet Mercury, known for its ability to shift rapidly, and its proximity to the Sun, Sumerian Utu, Akkadian Shamash, the god of Justice.

Enki's symbol is the caduceus (2 serpents on an eagle winged stick), one of the most ancient of symbols.

The caduceus connects Enki with Hermes in Greek mythology (and Poseidon in many ways); Moses (Numbers 21:8, 9) and Jesus Christ (who becomes The Caduceus - anyone who looks upon Him is healed, John 3:14).

The caduceus is the only symbol where serpents are connected to Enki and cannot be construed as being his principle symbology.

See: Enki

WOW Jorel!
that's some great information -

It may be true for them but not neccesarily true for those who don't follow Islam. By the same token those who do not follow either Judaism or Christianity are of course free to express their opinions on a correlation between Sumerian Mythology and the Book of Genesis.

We have quite a few examples of this being done in courses like Comparitive Religion. Yet it has to be stressed that these parallels are based on the opinion of the scholars who usually demonstrate an aggressive stance against christianity and are disputed by other scholars who demonstrate a certain leniency towards christanity. So we cannot state that evidence speaks for itself when these issues are discussed.

Take the example of the parallel between the "Tree of Life" and the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in Genesis and the Myth of "Inanna and the Huluppu Tree"

See: Inanna and the Huluppu Tree

Then tell us what parallels you discover between this myth and Genesis' equivalent...

You can then do the same with Adapa and the South Wind / Adapa and the Food of Life.

See:Adapa and the South Wind / Adapa and the Food of Life

I said it before, there are so many parallels no sane person can doubt Adapa and the South Wind was the story that formed the Basis of Genesis.
SAME Garden of Eden Yes, E D E N .
SAME Talking reptile that is said to be very wise
SAME Talking Reptile tricks AdamAdapa out of eternal life.
SAME Adam/Adapa must eat sacred food to gain immortality

But why does this mean you must be an Atheist to realize there is an earlier version of this story that may be more correct than the ones the Hebrews wrote down 1000 years later after they changed it so much though oral tradition? Must every Christian believe Satan is automatically the enemy of God when this is nowhere stated in the Holy Torah, the ONLY scriptures endorsed by Jesus? Why must Christians automatically accept as fact Pagan Persian Mythology stolen verbatim from other religions by John of Patmos, and concoct a devil just because the pagan religion has one?

How does your view in any way coincide with what is known of Sumerian Religous beliefs?

This is called in higher theological circles, "the commonality". Many religions have some resemblance to each other. It would surprize me if there were not. If the modern human race stemmmed from one source in would only make sense. The Hebrew theology differs much from all the other ancient religions, myths and lore, in that it is monotheistic and is seemingly stripped of the "gods" of Egypt and others. However as far as Hebrew theology is concerned they viewed the writings of Moses as inspired of God and certainly is a religion that came after the Egyptians and Sumerians, but it is distinct from them in that it is very anti-pagan in its view of God. God was always viewed not as a planet or moon or beast of any sort, but a spirit being. Many cultures have a similar story of the flood and a person like Noah, this again is a commonality that is there, but the stories vary as does the main character. The question then remains which is the most accurate? That pretty much boils down to what one wants to believe. But again I would say that the Sumerian's form of religion bears no theological similarity to the Hebrews it just shares some commonalities that has been found in others as well.

Nonsense.

Yahweh ordered Moses to build his idol, and for the people to worship it. It was a brazen, fiery winged serpent-dragon and it WAS worshipped for hundreds of years, even in the great temple of Solomon when Israel was at its greatest power, so evidently Yahweh was pleased by the worship of his idol. In fact, it wasn't until the Idol was destroyed that Israel began its decline, losing 10 of the 12 tribes and all of the surrounding cities and territories almost IMMEDIATELY after the Idol of Yahweh was destroyed. Feel free to look it up Moondog.

The Bene Elohim of Judaism were no different than the lesser Gods of the so called "pagan" religions. The Bible even acknowledges them with supernatural powers. And originally Yahweh was one of the Bene Elohim just like Satan, and only later were Elohim the creator and Yahweh the fiery flying seprent merged into the same God. Even Jesus said that the fiery flying serpent "Idol" was the symbol of his salvation, but instead of using the Symbol Jesus Himself said was his symbol, Christians instead venerate a pagan Roman execution cross.

No wonder Jesus never came back. Christians are unable to follow the simplest of instructions and because they preferred Pagan Persian Mythology over his teachings, they have forgotten Jesus said his symbol of salvation was the winged serpent idol and have made it the symbol of Satan instead. The Gnostics knew the mainstream christians were headed down the wrong road 1900 years ago.

Your insight of theology is lacking. The finest higher educational institutions would agree. I have looked it up and so should you by the way. Try the Jewish study bible which has it's seal of approval from the Tel Aviv university. Funny how you never reference this one in your vain jangling about dragons. Could it be that the JSB cites the seraphim as being angels and not the cartoon Puff the magic dragon? Anyone with a sixth grade education can read the OT and see without and theological commentary that Idolatry was a big NO-NO set forth by El Shaddai. You know absolutely nothing about Hebrew customs or religion. I bet your book is self published as well. What a joke!

Well, apparently I must know far, far more abut Hebrew customs and religion than you and apparently the "mock-jews" at Tel-Aviv Unversity.

You do not have the knowledge to dispute anything I have said here. All you can do is say "others" disagree with me.

The highly esteeemed Jewish Enyclopedia says the Seraphim were originally winged serpents or dragons.

The Dead Sea Scrolls translate the Seraphim to Dragons.

Ancient Jewish religiious laws specifically state in great detail the way HOLY DRAGONS must be depicted in religious art. Why would that be if there was no such thing?

These same HOLY DRAGONS Decorate the highest Jewish religious objects. We see them on the temple Menorah, and they are also the creatures of the ark of the covenant. Why would dragon be on the HOLIEST Jewish temple furniture.

Yes, the Hebrews normally were against idolatry UNLESS it was Yahweh's dragon idol. It was worshipped by the Israelites IN SOLOMON's TEMPLE. Yahweh ORDERED Moses to make it and the people to worship it or they would die.

You have no argument at all except for your ridiculous Christian Sunday School Fairy Tales that have nothing to do with the Real Bible.

All of the ancient evidence states Yahweh is a winged serpent-dragon. When Yahweh was the Sumerian diety that flooded the earth he was also a winged serpent-dragon. If you have a problem with what the Bible says, you can call Yahweh a flying spaghetti monster. I think you better stick with "Puff".

Hmm, maybe the reason no-one can refute you is because you don't show causal evidence of what you say.

Take the above post for example, you make quite a few statements that by their very nature need to be defended by what we call proof. Either theological, archaeological or other valid means to substantiate your statements are part of the everyday life of a student of this forum and any other scholarly endeavour. Just because we aren't discussing this in the University Campus doesn't mean you can throw these statements out and not back them up.

Look at my previous post 29 and you'll see everything is backed up it isn't simply pulled out of thin air. This is essentially what is required of you too. You conveniently forget that if these "Serpent Gods" were "Dragons" as you say, then we would have them depicted as such by the Sumerians themselves, as you can see on post 29, that does not happen with Enki, much less the others. so how are we supposed to accept your position if you don't at least have a picture of a Cylindar Seal with an "Enki Dragon" on it to show you are correct in your assumptions.

Any pictorial evidence would be welcome...



Very well then give us the refernce to back up your statement...

Sure if we are wrong then I for my part will apologize for having disbelieved you, and I mean that. Take the Dead Sea scrolls translation of Deutoronomy for instance, where exactly can we find the evidence you yourself found to get this specific verse which differs from that which we commonly accept. I can't find the specific post for refernce but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...

This is the quickest passage I could google, I suggest you look up his article to see that I am right, or any article aobut the Dead Sea Scroll should do.

Sons of God in Genesis and the Dead Sea Scrolls
I was reading an article an article by Ronald Hendel, who relates the Genesis "Sons of God" passage to a fragment of Deuteronomy found at Qumran. In the Hebrew bible, Deuteronomy 32:8 reads "sons of Israel" but in one of the Dead Sea Scroll fragments, the passage reads "Sons of God," identical to the Genesis story (6:1-4) of the "Sons of God" ("bene ha 'elohim") who "cavorted with the daughters of men."

And this is from a site called Torah Tidbits, but it quotes the specific law which you can look up that specifies a holy dragon from a pagan dragon. Apparently Satan has a spiny neck and Yahweh has a smooth neck!

The sea-monsters or dragons are particularly instructive. The sea-monsters embossed on the base of the Menorah have smooth necks. Only images of dragons with Tzitzim - hair, fringes, spikes etc. - are forbidden to be made. (Avodah Zara 43a). One can almost picture Herod's "religious expert" standing by his side and whispering into his ear what he could and what he could not get away with.

As for Enki, numerous hymns describe him as a Great Serpent Dragon of Heaven. He is depicted as a dragon in numerous seals and stele of Marduk to show the world that his father is a Great Serpent Dragon of Heaven, even though he took the form of a man. The quote below is from "Gods of Assyria and Babylon, but you can find these hymns and references to Enki being a dragon all over the internet. You will find several hymns to Enlil who flooded the world, also called a great serpent dragon of heaven. He would becom Yahweh the flooder, who order Moses to make his winged serpent/dragon idol.

"In the early stages of Sumerian culture, the gods and goddesses who formed groups were indistinguishable from demons. They were vaguely defined, and had changing shapes. When attempts were made to depict them they were represented in many varying forms. Some were winged bulls or lions with human heads; others had even more remarkable composite forms. The "dragon of Babylon", for instance, which was portrayed on walls of temples, had a serpent's head, a body covered with scales, the fore legs of a lion, hind legs of an eagle, and a long wriggling serpentine tail. Ea had several monster forms. The following description of one of these is repulsive enough:--


The head is the head of a serpent,
From his nostrils mucus trickles,
His mouth is beslavered with water;
The ears are like those of a basilisk,
His horns are twisted into three curls,
He wears a veil in his head band,
The body is a suh-fish full of stars,
The base of his feet are claws,
The sole of his foot has no heel,
His name is Sassu-wunnu,
A sea monster, a form of Ea.
R. C. Thompson's Translation. 1

Even after the gods were given beneficent attributes;, to reflect the growth of culture, and were humanized, they still retained many of their savage characteristics. Bel Enlil and his fierce son, Nergal, were destroyers

I assume you realize Ea is just another name for Enki.

You can apologize any time you like. The reason I do not post ever source in these discussions is becasue I have posted them all many times before and I thought you would know that.

I reiterate first:




In other words, some agree with you, some agree with DC and the real answer is, no one knows for certain, isn't that correct? But I notice how you couched your words—one is an aggressive stance, the other is a certain leniency. I could rephrase the latter and put it on equal footing with…”an aggressive stance for Christianity.”

You are incorrect. The OT is full of graven images sanctioned by the Israelite god, not the least of which was the serpent wand of Moses, which by the way, was a particular favourite in ancient Egypt. Then you have from Aaron's rod to the cherubim of the temple and ark: lotus pillars, lily carvings, to planet carvings, gold ornaments, and lions. All of which defy the commandment to not make any graven images of anything in the heaven above or the earth beneath. But then again, as did Biblical god change his mind regarding sacrifices, so too it seems did he (or at least his elite) change his mind (for him)on the brazen serpent.