Above is a little diagram that provides a general overview of the Bible. Whenever one is looking at a passage from the Bible, it can be helpful to see where in the pattern the particular passage fits. By doing so, it is often a lot easier to understand how the passage is to be looked at in a modern context. *diagram compiled and written by Simon Hingston, assistant pastor at Cabramatta Anglican Church (that's my church, by the way . Commentary on diagram, written by Paranoid Android* I'll be as brief as I can in describing the main points of the pattern/overview:

Creation and Eden: The Pattern of the Kingdom is Established

The world is created. The essential pattern is God's people, in God's place, under God's rule. The world was created, humanity was created as God's people, residing in Eden (God's place) and lived under the rule of God. This is how life was ideally created to be. Obviously something happened:

The Fall: The Pattern of the Kingdom is broken

The pattern of "God's people in God's place under God's rule" has been forever broken by the introduction of sin. It was started by Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. It can be argued they are still God's people, but they are no longer in Eden (God's place) and have chosen themselves over God (their own rule, not God's). Things just keep getting worse. Rather than turn back to God, it is clear that people are turning away. The story of Cain and Abel, Noah and the Flood, and the Tower of Babel all show the decline in humanity's fortunes. That is.... until Abraham.

Abraham: The Pattern of the Kingdom is promised

In Genesis 12, God makes four promises to a man named Abram (later known as Abraham). He promises that:

1 - God will be Abraham's God
2 - Abraham's descendants will be made into a great nation (more numerous than the stars)
3 - God will give Abraham this land (the Promised Land)
4 - through a descendant of Abraham, the world will be blessed (this seed - individual seed, not a nation, but a person - was the Saviour)

Most of the rest of Genesis can be seen as fulfilling one of these four prophecies. The pattern of the Kingdom (God's people in God's place under God's rule) has again been promised. One day, the people will live under God's rule, in God's place.

Abraham through David and Solomon: The pattern revealed through Israel's early history

This pattern of God's people in God's place under god's rule is slowly revealed, as the Israelites take possession of the land that was promised to them in early Genesis. Future patterns are revealed through events such as Passover. Israel reaches it's peak at the time of David and Solomon before things start to go pear-shaped again. But this is only the physical kingdom of Israel.......

The Prophets: The pattern is declining in Israel's history, but a better pattern is being promised through prophecy

After David and Solomon, the Israelite kingdom slowly declines. They split into two kingdoms (Judah and Israel). Neither Israel nor Judah do very well in following the Lord. They are God's people in God's place, but are not under God's rule. Both Israel and Judah frequently ignore God (though Judah does slightly better). Israel is invaded and conquered in 722 BC by the Assyrians. Judah survives another generation or so, but in 590 BC is also overrun by the Babylonians. However, 10 years later, the Jews are allowed to return to their land and rebuild their temple. Despite this decline in the physical kingdom of Israel, the Prophets continually prophecy of a better Kingdom, a spiritual kingdom that will come, promising a complete pattern of God's people in God's place under God's rule.

Jesus: The Kingdom come

The spiritual kingdom that was prophesied repeatedly in the Old Testament is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Though Israel's history has declined, the spiritual kingdom has been given full strength, and through the seed of Abraham (Jesus), the world has now been blessed, with the culmination of God's pattern of salvation to bring humanity into relationship with him.

The apostles through to modern Christians: The pattern begins in God's people

This is where we are in our time of 2007 AD. The pattern that has been revealed since before the creation of the world has been completed and we await the day of Jesus' return. We are God's people, under God's rule (some of us are, anyway). Until the final completion of the pattern.....

Jesus' return: The pattern of the Kingdom accomplished

This is the grand finale of God's grand design. The pattern established way back in Genesis (God's people in God's place under God's rule) has been accomplished, with the return of Jesus. Christians, in heaven, truly are God's people, in God's place, under God's rule.

-----------------------------------------------------------

This is the pattern of the Bible when seen as an overall work. As you see, it is not simply a collection of stories and histories of Israel, but a grand promise of a grand creator, dealing with God's plan to save humanity and bring us into relationship with him - God's people, in God's place, under God's rule

Regards, PA

So much for following the straight and narrow path.

PA see that part after Creation & eden..then there is a fall?? well...its fallen - pattern of the kingdom broken by sin...fair enough...but how come there arent many more fall's in the pattern like it?? vz lets fact it, more and more sins soon followed....



PS thanks for making the thread

So, if I understand correctly....
God created EVERYTHING in the Universe, just for us, so we would grow to be what god wants us to be, and then god will destroy it all once that is accomplished?



Seems rather wasteful to me, but I suppose thats all part of "THE PLAN".


meh, if it brings you comfort, good for those who believe it.

Bella-Angelique - I'm afraid I don't understand your comment......

Becky's_Mom - You asked why there are not multiple falls. You are right that sin does spread further and further throughout the Bible, and even the most "righteous" of people (Abraham, David) were shown to sin greatly (adultery, murder, and more). However, the Fall was a specific event when humanity stopped trusting God and started acting for their own ends. Since that time, that's what all humans have been doing anyway. Hence the Pattern of the Bible then moves to restoring that relationship, culminating in Jesus Christ. Humanity is already fallen. One cannot fall into a hole if they are already on the bottom of the well. Hope that helps.

JMPD1 - In its most basic form, you are correct. I'm not sure about EVERYTHING in the universe being created for us, just to become what god wants us to be before destroying it. There may very well be other reasons. The purpose of the Bible however deals with man's relationship to God, and how God acted to bring us into relationship with him, to create a people of God. That is how God has chosen to do things (all part of "THE PLAN" that you mention). Could God have done things differently? I'm sure he could have. But he didn't. God chose to use humanity's time on earth to bring about the fulfillment of "the plan" of salvation.

PA: I really liked the overview. Thanks for posting it! I've never looked at it that way before. Jody

^Hi Shera. Until about 8 months ago, I hadn't really thought of it in quite this way either. I'd taken a less defined view of the Old Testament, thinking of it in terms of setting up a much smaller-scale pattern. I acknowledged that there were parts of the Old Testament that related specifically to the New Testament (prophecies and such), but in general thought about it in terms of "Sin, Repentence, Judgement, Grace", which is another repeated pattern you see in the Bible (both Old and New Testament). Glad you liked it. It made a lot of sense when I looked at it from this point of view, and it really helped me focus and understand the Bible better.

How did Adam and Eve create SIN?

It was a one fall, because God and man were split from their unity, and man was no longer able to approach God. Men began kingdoms of their own from there. Jesus united man and God once and for all in His existence and does so forever more.

They sinned when they ate from the tree; the intention was the cause of the act and thus sin was created in the HEARTS of men. The serpent deceived Adam and Eve by telling them that they would be like God, knowing between good and evil. The good and evil wasn't the part that caught their attention. It was being like God.

They wanted to separate themselves from the life giver in effort to be like Him. When they rejected the life giver, this action was the sin. And from that; the consequence was that they die. You reject the life giver, you reject life and die.

I don't understand this, man was no longer able to approach God? I'm afraid there are many verses in the Tanakh that show that God wants his people to return to him. According to you, how did Jesus unite God with man?

I have always held that "dispensational" time frames of the history of the biblical recordings were very accurate and explain a lot, because it clears up the matter of what part is "addressed" to whom. The chart shows a basic time line but there are ones I am sure you have seen that are very detailed.

Approaching God through Deed and Word does not mean that you approach Him in Spirit and Presence. If you noticed the reason for the Tabernacle, it was so that God could walk among the people. God desired a relationship with the people that their sin hindered Him from doing. That is why the Tanakh shows that God want his people to return to him, so that he can dwell among them. When Adam and Eve rejected God, this is as if a son rejects his father and wants nothing to do with him. The father loves his son so much, but if the son is obstinate, then that relationship is still broken. So the father wants his son to return to him, to approach him, and at last, embrace him. Ever read the story of the prodical child?

every read the story in the bible about talking snakes and donkeys? what about flying horses? how about fitting EVERY OF EVERY TYPES OF ANIMAL ON A BOAT ?

And what does this have to do with the context of the topic? The context is God's plan for humanity. If you want to be skeptical and parade your antichristian comments, why not do it in the Spirituality vs. Skepticism forum?

I've noticed that every reply of yours, including your private message, was negative and antagonizing. Why are you so mean to Christians?

God doesn't desire anything, he just chooses what he wants to do right? Notice when God says he wants to have his people come back to him, it's not because of the original sin of Adam and Eve, it's because after a person sins against God, He is still willing to have the person come back to him with a humble attitude. No I don't think I have read the story of the prodical child, just wondering also what ever happened to that topic we were discussing a while back?

Ohh I see...and thanlks PA for giving me the answer also


Here is another bible question


How come a lot of the bible stories are nearly always set around Isreal?

well surely it was as good as any other place, right

That sure doesn't answer my question


Anyone else??

If you need someone else then I'll just bugger off

Yea that's why I asked someone else

Youy wish is granted

Thanks

Your welcome

Oh, and say hello to Becky

Not that I plan on getting knee deep into this discussion, but if you're not a Christian then you really shouldn't try to undertstand the Bible.

But it's a strange world we're livin in, so don't worry about who I am, or who I was

Hi BM, thanks again for the question.

Mostly, you'll find that the stories surrounding Israel are all in the Old Testament. The answer comes when reading Genesis 12:1-3. This is where the Pattern of the Kingdom is promised to Abraham. God promises to Abraham that he will be the father of a great nation and the world will be blessed through him. Then God promises that through a seed of Abraham (seed being a term for offspring - single offspring, not "seeds" as in a nation, but "seed" as in a person) the entire world will be blessed. Christians believe this seed was Jesus Christ. Now, the Old Testament focuses around Israel because the promises of the Saviour said that the saviour would come from Israel. The Old Testament was leading towards the birth of this seed, and the Old Testament documents the process by which this happens, by which all the promises given in Genesis 12 came to fruition.

In general, the Old Testament focuses on the Israelites because until the birth of Jesus, the Hebrews were God's exclusively chosen people. When Jesus came, the gospel message was made clear for all people of all time, not confined to just one race - which is why you may hear the term "Spiritual Israel" from time to time, in reference to Christians, because in many ways, that's what Christians see themselves as. The nation of Israel as God's chosen people has been extended to a spiritual nation, including people of all tribes and nationalities and areas.

Hope that helps you, BM. Keep asking away.....

~ Regards, PA

I think you never replied back.

God does desire things. To separate Him from His desires would make creating us a pointless action, and thus make the action maker unreasonable. That is not true. In fact, thats more how a pagan would view his/her god.

The Eternal One, however, desires a relationship with us. Why else, in Isaiah, would God complain about His people saying, "They serve me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." Thats the same as if your child kissed your butt for allowance and didn't give two cents about you. Its the exact same thing. Thus: God desires a relationship with us. That doesn't mean that he can't choose what he wants to do, but that he chooses to be with us.

If you place your salvation on your own shoulders, you will fail. Your human nature testifies of that fact. But if Christ, who is both fully God and fully man, took up your humanity on your behalf and brought it perfectly before the Father, then that means that even if you fail, God will still love you and you will be saved. We are not saved by our own good deeds or words, but on the good deeds and words of Christ who stands before the Father on our behalf forever. It is grace that saves us; God's compassion toward us that He would suffer along side with us.

The humble attitude only allows God to work in us by the power of the His Holy Spirit. If we pride ourselves, God cannot work far in us; for the work begins within the very heart of each individual.

Good reading there PA. God has a masterful plan indeed. Some things even the most obedient Christians do not know. We can't possibly know the whole shebang of his plan, but he gave us the most important part, which is salvation. God's knowledge is endless and I like it that way. I think the creation of Adam was God's Mona Lisa of works. Adam was exalted even over the angels, and guess what? That makes me feel pretty good as a human being. I am so very curious after earth, in an endless universe, with endless possibilities, what other creation does God have up his sleeve? Whatever comes next, I think earth served as centerpiece of it all. It will show to any other creation that the created can never usurp the creator (fall of satan) and that even though our original parents disobeyed God, he still loved us so much that he made it possible to return and live in his presence when he could of just sacked the creation as a whole if he wanted to (Noah's flood).

True that

Ok ...I understand that part of it - yes, but just wondered..not many parts of the world are mentioned at all, it is almost as if, Isreal was the center of the earth, actually i think that's what the people back in those days actually thought.

Do you think that those that wrote the bible were even aware of other countries in the world?

I believe that if God did actually take part in the bible, then other parts of the world would be mentioned a lot, to give people knowledge of where they are living.

When you read the bible, it's almost as if Isreal was the only place to be, and the only place that had life on it...ok Egypt & Rome also but not as much a Isreal

Back then, they wernt that advanced to get to travel and to explore other parts of the world

Take your home land PA - Australia and the aborigines, who together make up around - 2.5% of the population of Austraila, and date back to 40,000 and 70,000 years ago. The bibical people in Isreal didn't know of these people and didn't seem to know about other parts of the world neither.

If God had of introduced them to more knowledge, and made them aware of the rest of his creations, then the bible itself would be a little more believable. Reason being, is because we here today would think - WOW these men were not that advanced, so the only real way of them ever knowing about other parts of the world and the kind of people living in it, would be through the word of God, after all they do make other things mentioned in the bible as Gods word, so what difference does it make to teach man a lil more about the world in which God himself created.

Look at the USA - The indigenous peoples of the Americas - They are the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas, their descendants, and many ethnic groups who identify with those peoples. They are often also referred to as Native Americans or Indians. They date back over 12,000 years or more, BEFORE the WHITE MAN discovered the country itself

When you take a look at the bigger picture of the bible, it only tells you about the one main place, where we are meant to believe the world is created around - Isreal...

Here is something ironic about christian schools over in these parts. I once attended an all girls catholic school (for 2 years) and they taught us to believe in Adam & Eve, to believe that God created us and it all began with Adam & Eve. They taught us that man has only been on the earth a few thousand years, and Jesus was our only hope to get into heaven ect. Then in other classes we were taught history, and learnt that man is a lot older than what our bible tells us, and im pretty sure it's not the only school that has done this.

I know God wanted man to figure out what path to take on his own....but if the bible was really inspired by God, and if God actually had anything to do with it, then I think it would have made some sense to mention the rest of his creations.

Noah's Ark - I know man was living in other countries, yet for some reason, everyone pilled into the ark to be saved, but what about man that lived elsewere?? if the bible don't really mention this, then how did they know?


Ooopse this is a bit long, I seem to have gotten carried away LOL...but I like this thread, it gives me a chance to search for answers lol

Nice one PA

Thanks for the response, BM

You've discussed a few different points in your post, but the primary issue you raised was about why the Bible didn't mention other areas of the world. I'm sure there are many answers that others could give, but generally, I think that to reiterate that the Bible was focused on the Israelite nation is answer enough. It seems there would be little point in devoting time to other nations when everything important that was happening was happening in Israel. Other nations are mentioned - Babylon, Assyria, Rome, Egypt.... they're the big ones I can think of, but there are also the Philistines, Midianites, Canaanites, Jebusites, and dozens of others that come in contact with the Israelites. When the primary goal of the Bible is to show God's plan of salvation, then it seems to me useless to randomly discuss other nations. It would take away from the unity that the Bible portrays, and threads such as the one I started would not be possible, except to say that there was no unifying pattern.

You also mentioned your experiences at Catholic School in Religion classes compared to Science. I can't really comment on this, having been a victim product of Public Education and all that, but it sounds like it's just a difference of opinion between Young-Earth creationism and Scientific Theory. In all reality, both classes probably had it wrong Though I don't know how the Old Testament speaking in detail about Aborigines would help your Religion classes at school.

You also mentioned Noah's Ark, which is an interesting discussion in itself. Depending on who you speak to, you might receive a literal world-wide flood response. To others, you might receive a localised flood. In the context of the thread though, what is important is how the Flood story fits in with the Bible. And going back to the opening post and checking the timeline, the Flood is another example of humanity's spiral into sin, following the Fall from Eden. The events thus are indicative of the spread of sin, and needs to be interpreted within that context.

Hope that helps you, BM

~ PA

Before i get into the rest of the post, I just want to point out, that school has nothig to do with my main questions here LOL

The bible doesnt speak of a lot of things, even if I didn't attend school, and only picked up a bible and I was self educated, i still would asked these questions sooner or later lol

1st of all I did mention rome and Egypt PA in a previous post

lets take a look at the other two places you mention


Babylon (in Arabic: بابل; in Syriac: ܒܒܙܠ in Hebrew:בבל) was an ancient city in Mesopotamia

In the Middle Bronze Age Assyria was a region on the Upper Tigris river, named for its original capital, the ancient city of Assur (Akkadian: Aššur; Hebrew: אַשּׁוּר Aššûr, Aramaic: Aṯûr). Later, as a nation and empire that came to control all of the Fertile Crescent, Egypt and much of Anatolia, the term "Assyria proper" referred to roughly the northern half of Mesopotamia (the southern half being Babylonia), with Nineveh as its capital.


I am not talking about places that are close by eachother, I am speaking of other countries that are all over the world...the bible doesnt speak of them


If God wanted us to believe that it is all his word...then he should have put a lil more effort into informing us a lil more on his creations


When I mention Isreal....and focus on that alone, I am doing so, because it happens to be the main focus of the bible (when speaking of places)

Like the world revolves around Isreal

If you understand what I am saying

I understand what you are saying, but God promised to Abraham that he would be Abraham's God, and that Abraham would be His People. For God, the centre of the world was Israel, because it was through this Nation that all other nations would be blessed. It wasn't until Jesus that the nation of Israel took a back seat to the spiritual nation of God, which encompassed all nations.

I do understand what you are trying to say, but I think that speaking about other nations unrelated to the four promises of God (see first post for details) would just take away from the unity of the Bible.

Just my opinion, of course.

edit: I just went over the original post to check on those four promises again, and just realised that I made a slight error in the promises given in Genesis 12. That's what you get for writing a detailed thread at close-to 3am The post has been edited accordingly.

Wow and you are still up lol...I take it you don't have work in the morning PA lol

I think its best to continue this when you have your head showered and fully awake lol

^Nah, it's only 12:45am right now. It was 2:40am when I wrote the original post, and that's what I was referring to. And no, with university finished for the semester, I don't have to work tomorrow, lol. I find my brain works most effectively at this time of night anyway. There are so many distractions during the day

I do all the time

That dont make any sense at all

How do you suppose christians came to understand it then??

She must be fed up with ya then. Hehehe

Never!!!

Well in that case I'll reopen for you , because I want to discuss a topic that has always bugged me.

I think the bible is to be studied for ever for greater understanding of life an it may never be fully understood until we meet god himself!

That is absolutely true

**Another bible question**


How did the Trinity come about?

Nicely compacted nonsence, imo, Paranoid Android. Bible is allegory and mythology, not historical fact.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

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During the early years of the fourth century, a heated controversy raged between the Arians (named after Arius, their leader, and the Trinitarians, led by Athanasius. The Arians maintained that Jesus is a created being, pre-existent, though having a beginning in time, a son in the normal sense of the word, and subordinate to the Father. The Athanasian party argued that the Son is fully God, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.

Fearing that religious dissension might disrupt the political unity of the Empire, the Emperor Constantine summoned a general council of bishops to settle the dispute. Meeting at Nice in 325 A.D., the council upheld the teachings of Athanasius and formulated the Nicene Creed. Arius was excommunicated and banished, along with those of the bishops who held out against the decision of the majority and the threats of the Emperor.

The basic Trinitarian position was finally forged at the Council of Constantinople, A.D. 381, where the Holy Spirit was declared to be a divine person, although Harnack states that in the third century the majority of Christians believed it was merely a divine power.* At the Council of Ephesus, A.D. 431, and again at Chalcedon in 450 A.D., Jesus was asserted to be eternally both human and divine, a unity of two natures. The Council of Ephesus, incidentally, added Mary as a supplement to the Trinity, declaring that she should be received and honored as Theotokos, "Mother of God." [* Ibid., p. 266.]

Thus the controversy on the nature of God was settled, or so orthodox historians would have us believe. And thus, we are told, the Holy Spirit guided the church into an understanding of the truth. In point of fact, however, these councils, settled very little. Other councils met as well and upheld Arianism! The fortunes of both sides seesawed according to the politics of the Empire.

Whenever the Arians were dominant, they persecuted the Trinitarians; and when their fortunes were reversed, the Trinitarians persecuted them. The eventual result was not so much the outcome of rational debate and pious scholarship as of power politics and shedding of blood. By the start of the eighth century, Arianism was externally suppressed.* for the Trinitarians proved to be more efficient in killing the Arians than the latter were in killing them. Thus was orthodoxy established. And the most avid defender of holy tradition cannot deny that, had the Arians been militarily successful, their position would have become the standard of orthodoxy instead of that of their opponents.


SOURCE
* McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House), Vol. 1, p. 392, 1895. (A Trinitarian source.)]

The Same way as the doctrine of One God came to the Abraham and his seed; by divine revelation in an action on God's part. These actions happened on part of God's desire for a relationship with mankind.

The Trinity came about with the Revelation of God's love through the atoning acts of Jesus Christ, who is God manifested in the flesh. Christ defines our relationship with God from God's side of the relationship. The Holy Spirit defines our relationship with God from our side of the relationship.

What I'm trying to say is that the Holy Spirit enables us to respond to the responce of Jesus Christ, "Abba, Father" and take part in what is his through his relationship to the Father; which is the Fathers response to us.

The Holy Spirit provides us with the response to the Son; who is the revelation of God to mankind. Any time a revelation of God was given to mankind; the revelation was treated as God.

The Law proceeded from God and thus was of teh very substance and character of God. Thus did Jesus Christ. Both of these were given by God from God's side of the relationship. The Holy Spirit enables us to respond correctly to these revelations from our side of the relationship.

In truth, the Bible does speak of the other cultures, but sometimes after ca. 70AD the Holy Scriptures were changed.

We know this because the Dead Sea Scrolls show us the real scriptures which are at odds with the modern scriptures used by the Chruch today.

In the original Deuteronomy, creatures called the Bene Elohim (Sons of God) were apportioned to watch over every human culture. Yahweh was not the creator, he was simply the Ben Elohim of the people of Israel. Satan was one of these as well. The New World was not forgotten either. These same type of creatures would bring knowledge of agriculture and other technologies to these people, with names like Quetzalcoatl and Kuklakan. And the same creatures where in India and China. What do they all have in common, Yahweh and Satan as well? Our ancestors knew them as "dragons".

And this is why the Bible was changed to the version you read today, and no more do we hear of a universal creator who sent these "Bene Elohim" to all the world's cultures. Instead, the storm dragon Yahweh who was said to have flooded the world, would become the only God, but the Dead Sea Scrolls prove this is not true. That is why they are so controversial, they are our glimpse of the Bible untainted by the Roman church who rewrote what Christianity reads today..