By and large, Christians (and others cut from the Abrahamic cloth) believe that not only is their GOD omnipotent, but is omniscient and omnibenevolent. Meaning that GOD is all-powerful, all-knowning, and all-good. (All-PKG) For each quality, GOD is the infinite expression and unlimited practice of each characteristic.

Richard Dawkins, in the 2005 issue of Scientific American, observes that


If GOD is All-PKG, then the question must be answered...why did Jesus have to die? The very nature, the very tautology of the word "omnipotent" is all-powerful, that is, GOD is the infinite expression of unlimited power. To deny this definition of GOD otherwise abrogates and makes the meaning of the word God a joke and further inchoates an already confusing and contradictory concept where believers, by-and-large, admit that GOD is incomprehensible. With unlimited power and unlimited scope of knowledge, GOD - if the word is to have any meaning at all, MUST change the rules of the Universe, whereby not only the suffering of humans, but of animals in its fecundity abated and made obsolete.

But no, the Universe is indifferent and even the Son of God must die, as the stories in the New Testament illustrate.

Comments?

Comments ? you bet there will be comments .get your ribs ready .


regards fullywired

Regarding the question why did Jesus have to die, was it not his Diciple Peter who asked Jesus that very same question on that fateful night? Peter suggested running away, escaping, to which Jesus answered "you are thinking as a man thinks, not as God thinks" - this probably says it all.

By our very being we are fragmented, one-sided and do not see the complete full picture for the final plan (whatever that may be). The Final Plan has to be perfect, unfortunately we cannot view it in its entire full-blown glory. I guess this really is where faith comes in.

Jesus died because God deemed it to be that way, indeed Jesus already knew what was to happen, he could have run away and escaped but chose not to, because he knew how important it was to follow the plan to the very end.

Hi Lotus Flower. Thank you for your response. However, your answers have not address the central contradiction about the nature of the universe in relation to God's omnipotence. I'm sure in Sunday school, and amongst the devotees, your answers seem very plausible, however they do not resolve the unintelligibility of an All-PKG GOD and the evidential fact of continued suffering and death in an inhospitable universe and why Jesus had to die, despite having an All-PKG God as a father.

If god deemed it this way, then God is responsible for all evil and indifference in the universe. Not only are you confirming the harshness of the universe, but you have conceded that God is not omnibenevolent, much less omnipotent.

If that was the case, then what can be said of what he truly suffered having foreknowledge that his ascension to heaven, only to be GOD again?

And that's the gist of it. If the word GOD is to have any meaning, then can not only GOD change the plan, but change the rules as well. Simply: change the universe. Even children realize this. They cheat to win a game and children are not only orders of magnitude weaker than adults, more so to an alleged omnipotent creator god.

It is probably not evil in God's eyes, because He knows the beginning to the end. There is no need to change any plan - maybe it has already been run through before, who knows.

I am not confirming the harshness of the universe, I have not conceded that God is not omnibenevolent at all. As I said originally, humans tend to think as man does not as God does, there really is a massive difference as we can only see a small part and not the whole. Jesus dying was part of this plan, the impact it had on the World was on a humongous scale.

What did you mean about cheating to win a game? Are you saying that God would come down to a level of the same ilk? Cheating to win? Win what though, that doesn't make sense, there is no win in this situation and no need for any cheating.

One man dies and creates billions of followers and the largest organization on earth. I think it was well worth it, somebody got rich. There almost on the way to world domination now.

Well, it all depends on your interpretation of God...when Moses asked God his name...he said "i am that i am" which he exclaims that he is everything. There is no idolisation there of peace and goodness and All-PKG...He just is what He is...quite zen like really.

Another good quote which can be related...

It is a certainty, that he who can see himself in all animals, and all animals in himself, knows no suffering

When relating back to the exclamation that "i am that i am" which in essence is what each of us is, then it is through acknowledging that we are what we are that we can come to terms with the suffering in the world.

whats that quote from? what does it mean?..i think i like it is all.. im just a little confused by it.

You have stated that man is "one-sided," and "we can only see a small part and not the whole." If that is the case, how can you read GOD's mind? How can you even make that statement above if this is really the case?

Also, GOD knowing the beginning to end, as you so put it, hasn't changed the fact that the universe is still very much a cruel place to life and that Jesus had to die.

Really? Then the universe is not harsh to humanity and life? There is no suffering in the universe? Really? Then what are you refuting then?

So, in your opinion it is incorrect for me to draw a conclusion about this just how incoherent this plan is, but for you, who admits that you can not see the whole "plan," can make such definitive statements otherwise?

Entirely ad hoc on your part.

However, we know the plan...right?

Jesus will come back with a tongue of a sword and feet made of brass as the host of God smites the unbeliever and the dead rise once again. All Jews go to hell. 144,000 virgins go to heaven. The Earth is consumed by flame. This is the methodology of an All-PKG GOD, correct?

So if GOD's plan is to conform to an indifferent universe of not only the suffering of animals and man, but that of a God in Human form as well? An omnibenevolent GOD would change the plan, and for which the rules it is played by. If, again, that's the case of what you believe, we are in agreement.

Also, just what is this "humongous impact" on this world that Jesus' death brought? He came to defeat sin. Still here. He came to defeat death. Still here. He came to defeat Satan. He still lives. He came to end suffering. Still here.

Apparently, God can do nothing to change the universe and is as every much beholden to it as we are. Therefore, GOD is not GOD.

I see the point escapes you, as you react merely to the buzzwords "cheat" and not the underlying concept. *sigh*

Garden-variety Christianity mostly. All-PKG.

I don't understand the rest of your statements and your quote is unintelligible. What is certain, is that I can not alleviate the suffering of other beings by merely "seeing myself" in their skins, as it is also as certain that All-PGK God obviously can not either - unless you deny suffering in the universe really exists? Also as certain is that simple acknowledgment does not alleviate this suffering as well.

And...I still will certainly suffer if I pour boiling water on my skin.

If this GOD is each of us, then it is not supernatural, but a natural phenomena. We have science and reason for that. No need to beg supernaturalism.

Hey Zombie Jesus, i read it in some hippy Indian guru book, just quite liked it...it was marked as anon, but it is a good quote...it makes thing fit into place for me...it states that if we can identify with both the cause and the effect then they will cancel each other out.

What is Garden like Christianity? ...are you refering to yourself?...I dont follow Christianity so i do not know to what your brief comment infers.

When you pour boiling water on your hand, the pain that you feel, is it the boiling water? or the response of your emotions and senses that cause the pain you feel?

Nobody can hurt me without my permission.
~ Mohandas Gandhi

Who begs supernaturalism?
We have science and reason for natural phenomena? We have natural phenomena for natural phenomena, we have science and reason for science and reason, they are a language and not the subject they speak of.

Good question. What exactly is it? Christians have hardly settled that definition themselves.

Generally speaking a Christian is one who believes in the Lord's Prayers which enumerates the central tenents of their faith. Of course, like the sprawl that is Christianity, so too are there different formulations of the Lord's Prayer.

That sounds like a reasonable defintion to me. Nevertheless, the water is satisfactorily hot enough to cause disruption and pain to one's skin and pain enough to know its hot. However, I fail to see how the certianity of my pain is anyway equilivant to "he who can see himself in all animals" and "know(ing) no suffering?"

Fact is, it is both. The water is scalding and you do feel pain. (Unless you've been damaged in someway and that normal response is shut off.)

I fail to see the revelance of this quote under the premise of this thread.

I don't know...are you? You state that God answers "i am that i am" and that it is "essence is what each of us" is a naturalistic statement since it is we that habitate and exist in a natural state. This being evident, one does not need to beg supernaturalism. Therefor with science (as a tool and mindset) we study nature. With reason (as a tool of human discernment) we come qualify what we know about nature.

Then what do they speak of? How do you breach the epistemological schism between nature and something outside its magistery to study and understand?

For instance, Lotus quoted Jesus as saying "you are thinking as a man thinks, not as God thinks," which is a firm aknowledgement that what is supernatural is beyond human reason and understanding.

This being the case, statements of faith, and assertions about the nature of GOD are useless and at best - wishful thinking, and at worse - deviod of any real world application and usage.

The idea of God being a good, loving God does not negate the need for evil, if He as an omniscient being sees a need for it. The fact that from our limited viewpoint we can't, or won't, see the need for it does not negate the reason for it.

Where did you get the idea that believing in "The Lord's Prayer" is what defines a Christian?

Actually, the name itself should give one a fairly good idea of what defines a Christian - Believing in Jesus Christ as God in the flesh, and following His teachings.

Claiming God is omnipotent and such is the same as claiming there is no God.


You can't prove either no matter which one seems more credible.

The "big guys" in religion want and wanted people to think this way. "We can't prove God doesn't exist...and going to Hell doesn't sound all to fun." Oddly enough...they use a term widely used in courtrooms....reasonable doubt.

There is reasonable doubt that God doesn't exist...and the end IS inevitable. If you want to keep your dignity as an agnostic then you die without asking for God's forgiveness. If you dont...then you DO ask for forgiveness.





There is a guy named Walter Corman that lives down the street from my house. He is a banker, his wife is an alcoholic and his kids are border lining druggies. Last week Walter bought a gun, shot his wife and kidnapped the two....kids...took them to Nevada and ended up shooting them when the police got him into a corner. So I should say, I KNEW Walter Corman. Cool guy at first. I wouldn't mind having his full head of hair and his nice Mercedes.




I forgot to mention he doesn't exist.

It's easy to make up some guy and it's even easier to give him superpowers. I could've never told you that he doesn't exist and people that wouldn't research into the facts might have believed me. Maybe if I made the feigned anecdote a little bit longer you would've believed me. Hell..the Bible is pretty long. Might not be an anecdote..but it is some dude with superpowers and...Jesus. Come to think of it..it is a lot of people that sacrificed their lives to go to heaven with "some dude with superpowers."

Truth is NEVER stranger than fiction these days. Why? Because half the time the things average everyday people concoct in their head that they can create into fiction are just plain weird.


Is it so hard to believe that whoever wrote the Bible got a little overzealous about it?

Mind explaining this in more detail? Why would an ALL LOVING GOD see the need for evil? Let me remind you that omnibenevolence is unlimited goodness in infinite expression and in means. Are you stating that an omnibenevolent GOD finds evil good, much less necessary? How is that in any way shape - good?

Saddam Hussien and Hitler sure did cause much evil in the world, only second to GOD's great flood. Is the genocide of whole peoples a good thing only when GOD does it? (Yet, again, here is another story that illustrates that GOD is as helpless to the indiffence of the universe by not changing the universe, but going along with injustice by not waving his hand and changing rules, but no, he just adds more injustice and death to the world.)

But your making the utilitarian argument for evil and why GOD allows it, or why he should require it. It's a horrible argument and a bunk theodicy. Simply, how does the rape and murder of child benefit me in anyway? And if you answer there is a benefit to it, then what can be said about it ethically? How does this improve me? Well?

Stop begging ignorance. I have very little patience with this type of unconscious lethargy.

Ah, sorry about that. I mean the Nicean Creed. The Lord's Prayer is a truncated version of it.

That whole "god in the flesh" thing wipes out any notion of suffering for atonement as suffering doesn't mean much to a being that is immortal and All PKG. And if it does, then GOD is as weak and as falliable as any human being. That being the case, you've successfully argued against GOD in this respect. Congrats.

Basically i tried to be as poetic as i could, but the truth is, there aint no good and evil, there aint no joy and sorrow, its all in your head.

Just a little point, but without evil, how can one know good?

That's consice. Depending on the context, I'd probably agree with you.

Seems to be a facet of the universe does it not? If we need this binary to bunk descisions and circumstances in some qualitive way, how can this be harmonized with the beliefs of an All-PKG GOD? If I can humanly possible conceptualize a material universe without harm or suffering or evil (which is the Abrahamic conception of heaven), why can not this All-PKG GOD deploy such a reality and create such a universe today? But no, even Jesus must die, humans grow old and suffer and die, animals predate, and natural, old age death is the rarest event known.

P/A, you're dead nuts correct in your observation.

I am sorry but all I did was give my opinion, the fact you do not agree with it is fine, I would not expect anything otherwise. You are taking everything I say in a manner to which it was not intended, therefore, I am out of this argument because it will serve no purpose.

I did not come on this thread to argue only to put my point across.

The point escapes me because MY point escapes you, there are always two sides to a story, we must agree to disagree .

On an afterthought please do not patronise others by "sighing", the fact someone does not see your point of view is not in itself a criminal act.

I do not view God as you do and of course, vice versa. You have put words in my mouth that are not my words and in no way represent my opinions.

Good day and be well

I am not espousing a "point of view." If these words "GOD", "omnipotent", omniscient, and "omnibenevolent" are to many anything, then they should test out in the real world. However, we do not see this - we see the opposite if anything. I've only asked reasonable questions and have been honest to the definitions and meanings of each... have you?

If you did not come to this thread to argue and to defend GOD, then why did you come here? This is an area for debate, ie Spirituality vs Skepticism. Crying split milk now after I've have answered your comments and called you out for logical fallacies is a little too late.

What precisely is the real world? Seems to me that you have your preferred definition of what the world ought be like and are trying to hold the universe to your standards. From our perspective the universe is cold. And were it not for our perspective we wouldn't care. Animals and insects and plants are not bemoaning the unfairness of the universe. They just get on with it. Have you ever watched a seal attacked by sharks? That's life. Its neither cold nor pitiless. Pity is a human emotion. The fact that you exist and feel pity is the first testament to the mercy of God because we are made in God's image. The purpose of evil? What is evil? Life not according to your comfort zone is not evil. Evil is the absence of God. Rejection of the power and capabilities of God, turning from God, creates evil. So you wish to turn from God, and his plan, yet have life unfold exactly as you prefer? Because you know how things are supposed to be.

omg, you just quoted Lao Tsu. Did you know that?

Do you have an argument here? If you have no idea what reality is, I can not help you.

My standards? Sorry Salieri, but I am using the same exact "standards" - the very definitions that Christians advance about their God and in fact, I am holding them to it. Instead of attacking me and trying to read my mind, you would better spend your time holding yourself to these definitions that Christians give.

And this is a refutation how? My argument is that the universe is precisely that. Unfair. You acknowledge this. Therefore, this unfair universe in its multiple permutations of suffering and terror, and the fact that Jesus had to die only, again, shows that GOD is as very much a victim of the universe as we are. This, again, being the case, and the very point in which you cannot refute, GOD is neither ALL-PKG. And if God is not ALL-PKG, then by these tautologies, he is not GOD.

Really? Care to support that?

Really? By what have I wrote can you support that?

Why don't you tell me what the purpose of evil is? Please. I would be very interested. To forewarn you I've already posed the question about the utilitarism to IamaSon. Here it is again....perhaps you care to answer it? "Simply, how does the rape and murder of child benefit me in anyway? And if you answer there is a benefit to it, then what can be said about it ethically? How does this improve me? Well?"

So animals are evil. Trees are evil. Stones and water are evil. They are without GOD. Is this correct?

Again, support how I have rejected the "power and capabilities" of GOD. I have, in fact, at the very opening of this thread have stated that GOD is "omnipotent", omniscient, and "omnibenevolent." I have only evaluated what these qualities mean in light of the condition and state of the universe.

And just what is this plan? I stated to Flower that the plan is that "Jesus will come back with a tongue of a sword and feet made of brass as the host of God smites the unbeliever and the dead rise once again. All Jews go to hell. 144,000 virgins go to heaven. The Earth is consumed by flame."

I asked her and now I will ask you...

This is the methodology of an All-PKG GOD, Salieri?

Reality is what it is. You are the one with the problem of how things are in reality by suggesting that they are not good enough because they don't meet your personal standards. I have never said the universe is unfair. I stated clearly that you are taking human emotion and applying it to the universe. Does the seal think its unfair that it is ripped alive and eaten? Or is it just as it is? Your personal desire to make the universe operate according to what you prefer is what is unrealistic. The rape and the murder of children are done by people. People have a pattern of doing these things. And like you they ascribe feelings and emotions to the situation. A child suffers no more and no less than an adult that is hurt in the same way. Yet to an adult witnessing this creates feelings of dismay, as you have stated. This is not how it is supposed to be. Why don't people stop it. And yet after saying this you will simply go about your day, perhaps drive in your car that is filled with the blood oil of these actions. Perhaps drink a cup of coffee that is proffered from the blood of these actions. You want to have it your way. God wants it to be his way. And since people reject God's solution, again and again, the world continues to operate in discord. You recognize this yourself. You see that something isn't right. God has told us how to fix this. Come to God. And yet we refuse. We prefer to live in our discord and to blame God for the mess. God has told us how to fix this. And yet you think you know a better way, as do so many others. And we continue to live in discord and feel pity and shame. Your question is your own answer.

There you go. Correct.

Now if this universe is the way god wants it... can one still believe that is creator GOD is all-PKG?

The solution was Jesus...was it not? Still the world continues the same way before Jesus. Not much of a solution from an ALL-PKG God. ANd if you do consider this a solution, despite the facts on the ground, then you live in an alternate universe of cognitive dissonace and unconscious chicanery.

And what is that? Do I smell a ploy to extortion via Pascal's wager here?

If GOd can reveal himself to Paul, if GOD can reveal himself to Moses or Mohammed, then I do not have to do a thing. The burdern of proof is on HIM.

Poetic that was. But you did not answer these questions I posed to you. I will pose them once again:

01. Jesus will come back with a tongue of a sword and feet made of brass as the host of God smites the unbeliever and the dead rise once again. All Jews go to hell. 144,000 virgins go to heaven. The Earth is consumed by flame. This is the methodology of an All-PKG GOD, Salieri?

02. Care to support how I am made in God's image?

03. So animals are evil. Trees are evil. Stones and water are evil. They are without GOD. Is this correct?

04. Again, support how I have rejected the "power and capabilities" of GOD? I have, in fact, at the very opening of this thread have stated that GOD is "omnipotent", omniscient, and "omnibenevolent."

05. Simply, how does the rape and murder of child benefit me in anyway? And if you answer there is a benefit to it, then what can be said about it ethically? How does this improve me? Well?"

What better way have I offered here. Please quote that for me and if not by direct quote, support an argument instead of veering to a strawman.

I wasn't aware of that....... but it is really common sense, I'm surprised more people haven't said it, ya know. *unless of course one were to argue that good and evil don't exist, in which case the argument is moot, but you know what i mean

Accepting Christ was the solution not Christ himself.

The only thing that accepting Christ is a solution to Christians, but has no practical value when evaluating the state of the universe to the alleged solution that his dying and suffering on the cross was to provide.

However, even if -for the sake of argument, Jesus did do away with Satan, do away with Sin, do away evil and death from his "sacrifice" on the cross, the very fact that he had to die shows that GOD is as much of a victim of this universe as we are.

You didn't answer my questions.

Salieri exits with a wimper...

So you say the world doesn't operate the way it should. God says no kidding, I've been saying that since the beginning, follow me and I will save you. And you say, no I'm not going to follow you. I just want you to give me the planet and make it work the way its supposed to and go away. See God has shown you what to do. You just don't want to do it. And then you complain about the condition. You are lamenting the same choir of sorrow that has been in place since Adam and Eve. You disobey God and then don't understand why its not working the way you want it to.

When your done preaching, perhaps you'd like to re-read the opening post of this thread, instead of reading my mind and veering into strawmen and avoiding the very consice and direct questions I had for you. This you have not done and fail to address my questions so that you can go into preacher mode. Thanks.

That's funny. You ask a question about God and the reason why the universe is the way it is. I answer you with what God told us and I'm in preacher mode. Ok. I think you have the answer you are comfortable with, but somewhere its not quite satisfying your soul. And so this debate is actually an attempt to wrestle your own demons. An all powerful loving God would create a solution to the problem. Which he has. But just because that solution doesn't take away your burden of responsibility its not considered adequate in your opinion. Enjoy the rest of the debate.

And you think this "solution" is adequate? You really believe that the solution actually was a success? Really? Did the premise of this thread totally escape you? You still need to come to terms with the fact that not even God can not change the nature of the universe. Jesus had to die, afterall. Or did he not die on the cross in a brutual inhuman manner? You should be happy that under the context of this debate, I am conceding a man named Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Why do you fight me on this? Well?

Anyway, if the word GOD is to have any meaning at all, a GOD that is ALL-PKG, then a rework of the universe in alignment to those qualities is necessarily expected of such a being.

My apparent disobedience is a red herring. Arguments for utilitarianism of evil are a red herring. Your mind reading is a red herring. Arguments that beg ignorance are a red herring.

Anything else you offer is a red herring.

The fact is, we haven't debated. You've attempted every red-herring in the book and no wonder you're frustrated. Your faith leaves you incapable of debate.

Oh my...did the rules of this forum escape you?

01. No spamming
I have not spammed.

02. Post content
I have not violated this rule.

03. Behaviour : 3a. Racism or hatred. 3b. Harassment. 3c. Profanity. 3d. Trolling. 3e. Flamebaiting 3f. Abusive behaviour 3g. Multiple usernames 3h. Forum groups/gangs 3i. Thread derailment 3j. Forum warfare
Which of these am I guilty of if you please? If anything I have tried to keep this thread on topic. I have not read peoples minds nor have I tried to convert anyone. I've made my argument and expect to be engaged in debate. Salieri, on the other hand has stated all sorts of things about me. "Come to God" , ".You just don't want to do it." etc, engaging me and not the argument. Last time I checked, that's a personal attack, however, I keep restating the central issue involved about the evidential nature of the universe and the beliefs in an All-PKG god. But again, I get called to the floor.

04. Etiquette. 4a. Shouting 4b. One-word comments 4c. Quoting 4d. Display name 4e. Signature.
Again, none of these have I involved myself in.

Thanks.

WOW you are so brave, and yet so charming...whats it like to be you??


Translated = You have gave the kind of answers religious people would like, but not what i would want...DARN IT!!! answer me how I would want you to


So you are a great believer in the God of the bible?? good for you


I have tried to believe in the cobblers in the bible that was written about God, but see here's the thing...........I cant..

I saw your posts as rude and uncalled for......Abusive behaviour ??? me thinks it is.........wanna split hairs?? go for it, im only a PM away

So what should I do? Be nice and delicate with someone's beliefs when they can not either, address the issue at hand, presume to read my mind or equivocate on the issue, or offer evidence of an assertion when I even ask them directly of such a thing?

(note to self: bluntness is rudeness.)

Im not asking you to be nice...but gee, it is rude, you dont have to delicate with anyone beliefs...but does it cost you anything to show respect?? and dont complain to me about my posts...cuz immmmmm being.....how you love to put it - BLUNT with you..thats not rude LOL

But I sense something else from this whole thing...you and the christian chick...the one that you are getting at a lot --> Salieri.........hmmmmmm almost seems a lil staged lol

its not everyday you see someone just join a forum and go in for the kill LOL...yea I wouldn't be surprized if it were staged

Carry on, keep acting the way you are ....if a mod PM's you about your attitude, just chant - hhey im just being BLUNT not rude, its not the same thing blah blah!!!

*Note to self...rude has a new meaning..its now known as being blunt*

IF your anything like Salieri, you'll be able to answer that for yourself.

What?

I'm only adhering to the strict defintion of a GOD is. Taking the Bible at its word that Jesus died for our sins and evaulating the results.

The point I was making to IamSon is that his utilitarian argument for evil does not work if one stops to ask how does the murder of child benefit me? How?

Well, I will try to play a bit nicer here - okay? However, if those are debating me would stop assuming things about me and just deal with the argument at hand, perhaps the conversation will roll a bit easier? What do you think about that?

Also, I have no idea who anyone is. I have only recieved pm's from one other person on this board since I joined. I have no idea who Salieri is.

there is no such thing as good and evil PA...we are making it up as we go .. you are describing the essence of dualism and really there are only varing degrees of things ......

You say you up-hold the strict def of God or where you trying to say - the strict def of WHAT a God is?? or What kind of God is he??...

If you believe in what this bible has said..but you are dead against it...then yes i see your point

If you do not believe a single word of it......then, I fail to see your point, cuz after all you wouldnt give a monkies fiddlers feck what it read!!

BUT (yes there is a but lol)......if you are questioning their belief as to WHY they believe in it........why would they wanna believe in it, well mate, you have just joined a massive que!!! the questions repeat on here a lot, if you get a straight answer, you'd be the 1st


Whats with the dictionary swallowing?? hobby?? loose it, no one cares lol

Let me take these one at a time...

I hear you...(I think.) How can really one define this GOD if this GOD is not even a natural entity? On one hand we have Christians who say GOD is loving and hates this and hates that, which, of course, are human emotions. But if GOD is not a human, then why would IT have human emotions? Heh. Yet on the other hand, Christians say we can't understand GOD and he is not accountable to the basic humanity we expect of ourselves. They want it both ways...however, in the context of this thread I am not so much concern with that than the evidential truth of the universe.


Thank you... I think. I am not sure if I am "dead against it?"

I guess I have hope that humanity will be its own salvation and not invisible men and bloodthirsty gods.

What? Dictionary swallowing?

I can't wait to get into the gym tonight now...

They believe God is everything, he is the one and only be all and end all.......yes in parts you will read peoples posts, that state God is not human...but then they will say he made us in his form..this I have debated a lot, it dont make sense to me.

An all loving God that hates, I can see why people think this, after all he is dead against gays...............but IMO, thats only mans word for it, not the word of an all loving God. Man wrote down what he wanted others to believe and follow, it all ties up with POWER, hence his fear of homosexuals, he didn't understand them, so he made it look as though God is agaisnt them all and he who lies with another man, let blood be on their heads <--thats not the words of an all loving God...........those are the word of man and man alone!!!

I belive in God but dont see God as a male or female, I am honest enough to tell you, I cant describe what God is, I cant begin to, all I believe God to be is a spirit, with human emotions and then some...

I thik it silly when someone says - we dodnt understand God, yet can tell you, that you are going to burn, cuz God does not like this and that, well sunshine, I say this...If no one can UNDERSTAND God, then how would anyone KNOW for sure, what God would do, and how he would do it??

Its a million dollar question, one that no one can answer

It's a question that is not that hard to answer. If an "aspect" of GOD describes nature, then we are only talking about nature. We are not discussing or describing the supernatural.

The key word you used there was IF........and that doesnt say much.........no one can describe God, no one can comperhend God.....everyone just floats on what they believe

"suffering exists therefore God doesn't" -Gracious

I heard this before, still don't understand it. Why didn't God make us all spoiled heiresses? Think about it.

"Evil is the absence of God."

then evil shouldn't exist if god is ALL PKG
all powerful--can do everything
all knowing--can understand everything

this can't be achieved unless YOU ARE everything.
thereforeif
1.Evil is the absence of God
2.God is All PKG
3. All PKG= being everything
4. if god exists and is everything, evil cannot since they are mutually exclusive

Note: this is simply an evaluation of this particular statement.
I don't pretend to know if god exists or not. I am a devout agnostic.

I agree with sagacious, a lot of responses have been ad hominem
rather than to the point. I don't think he has violated the rules at all.
and if he has--all of you have. this has simply been a fiery debate with
a few people getting defensive (as all people do when it comes to dearly held beliefs)
but he did present valid points, although bluntly. I have been thinking of this very thing
today.

by the way, religion does not equal god. it is beliefs about god.
INHO no religion represents god anymore. Quite frankly in my eyes
it has become a bunch of snake oil salesmen using the memory of good
HUMAN BEINGS (jesus,buddha etc.) to manipulate people into a passive position while
the dominate and devastate the world with their greed and meglomania.
religion started out as the pursuit of truth and has only become a means of keeping the lowly masses appeased in the face of perpertuated atrocity. again no proof of this
just my opinion

respectfully
randym