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TheKnight

Is Jesus the Messiah?

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The Genealogy of Jesus.

I was studying my Bible, and I came across some things in the Bible (the NT) pertaining to the Messiah-ship of Christ based on his genealogy. According to his genealogy, Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am confused about this.

What do we say about this? The Bible says (based on genealogies) that Jesus is not the Messiah.

1. Luke's version-Jesus descended from Nathan but the Messiah MUST descend from Solomon (1 Chronicles 28:6-7), therefore according to Luke's genealogy Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

2. Matthew's version-Jesus descends from Jeconiah who is cursed to be childless (Jeremiah 22:28-30).

So based on Luke's Genealogy according to the Bible if Jesus descended from Nathan (Son of David) than he CANNOT be the Messiah. Based on Luke's genealogy if Jesus came from Jeconiah-- no wait, he can't come from Jechoniah because God cursed Jeconiah to be childless.

Now I am confused about the Messiah....

I think of this, and feel like a liar. Here on UM I have been spreading the words of Christ. However, according to the Bible I have lied....I am now confused. Yes, I follow God, but this post caused me to wonder about Christ. Because after that post I was forced to re-evaluate my relationship with God. I have come to realize that in my speaking with God Christ has not been mentioned. God and I have spoken many times before about Salvation, and he talks of himself. He says nothing to me of Jesus. Now I am beginning to feel that I have been a victim of tradition and indoctrination, that in order to remain friendly with those Christian who are my friends I have input Christ into my experiences, only to find that I have tricked myself. That this Christ has had nothing to do with my experiences. Yes, I have absolutely definitely experienced God. I KNOW that I have experienced God. But have I experienced Christ? Not directly. Now am I forced to re-evaluate and wonder.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe that's because 1 Chronicles 28:6-7 isn't talking about the Messiah.

It look's to me as if it's directly talking about Solomon. If you keep reading, into Chronicles 29, you'll see that David then hands over the position of King to Solomon. It's not a prophecy. It's a declaration that God has chosen Solomon to rule.

Edited by Tiggs
added Chronicles 29 info.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe that's because 1 Chronicles 28:6-7 isn't talking about the Messiah.

It look's to me as if it's directly talking about Solomon.

It's talking of the lineage of David being eternally preserved which is known as which lineage the Messiah will come from. The Messiah is prophesied to be the King of Israel who preserves David's line, and therefore would have to come from Solomon because only Solomon was promised an eternal reign through his descendants (like his father David.)

Edited by Knight of Zion (COI)

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28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

I've highlighted the important word.

Besides - Mary's bloodline descends directly from David, doesn't it?

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28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

I've highlighted the important word.

Besides - Mary's bloodline descends directly from David, doesn't it?

No where in the NT does it say that Mary descended directly from David...in fact the Jewish linage is patriarchial and the female line is superfulous and of no importance in determining direct linage.

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28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

I've highlighted the important word.

Besides - Mary's bloodline descends directly from David, doesn't it?

But he has been, and no Mary's bloodline is NOT recorded,lineage is recorded through the Father and according to Matt and Luke the genealogy mentioned is Joseph's, yet Joseph was not the Father of Jesus.

No where in the NT does it say that Mary descended directly from David...in fact the Jewish linage is patriarchial and the female line is superfulous and of no importance in determining direct linage.

:tu:

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And where else, anywhere is the lineage of the mother cited to legitimize any of the biblical characters?

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And where else, anywhere is the lineage of the mother cited to legitimize any of the biblical characters?

Exactly.

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The Genealogy of Jesus.

I was studying my Bible, and I came across some things in the Bible (the NT) pertaining to the Messiah-ship of Christ based on his genealogy. According to his genealogy, Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am confused about this.

What do we say about this? The Bible says (based on genealogies) that Jesus is not the Messiah.

1. Luke's version-Jesus descended from Nathan but the Messiah MUST descend from Solomon (1 Chronicles 28:6-7), therefore according to Luke's genealogy Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

2. Matthew's version-Jesus descends from Jeconiah who is cursed to be childless (Jeremiah 22:28-30).

So based on Luke's Genealogy according to the Bible if Jesus descended from Nathan (Son of David) than he CANNOT be the Messiah. Based on Luke's genealogy if Jesus came from Jeconiah-- no wait, he can't come from Jechoniah because God cursed Jeconiah to be childless.

Now I am confused about the Messiah....

I think of this, and feel like a liar. Here on UM I have been spreading the words of Christ. However, according to the Bible I have lied....I am now confused. Yes, I follow God, but this post caused me to wonder about Christ. Because after that post I was forced to re-evaluate my relationship with God. I have come to realize that in my speaking with God Christ has not been mentioned. God and I have spoken many times before about Salvation, and he talks of himself. He says nothing to me of Jesus. Now I am beginning to feel that I have been a victim of tradition and indoctrination, that in order to remain friendly with those Christian who are my friends I have input Christ into my experiences, only to find that I have tricked myself. That this Christ has had nothing to do with my experiences. Yes, I have absolutely definitely experienced God. I KNOW that I have experienced God. But have I experienced Christ? Not directly. Now am I forced to re-evaluate and wonder.

Take heart my friend, you have not been mistaken. There are 2 geneologies for Jesus - Mary's and Joseph's. In Matthew, Joseph's lineage in given, in Luke, Mary's.

Matthew's geneology descends from Abraham, Joseph to Jesus because all the Messiah promises are fulfilled in Him. In Luke, the geneology ascends from Jesus to Adam so the relation from the first to the second Adam is established. In Matthew, Joseph is shown to be strictly descended from the royal line of David which makes sense because although Jesus was not a blood relative of Joseph, in the eyes of the law He was Joseph's son and therefore of David's royal line. For the blood relation to David spoken about in prophecy, Luke shows us that Mary is also a descendent of David although not through the royal line.

As for the "difficulty" of Jeconiah, it was through Joseph's lineage that Jeconiah came and because Jesus was not a blood descendent of Joseph the prophecy was strictly fulfilled in that if He had been Joseph's natural son, He could not have come to the throne, but becuz He was Mary's natural son, He could inherit the throne through her marriage to Joseph becuz of her relation to Nathan. So these "difficulties" only confirm the accuracy of the scriptures.

The 1Chron. reference was strictly speaking of Solomon's rule of the nation in life which should not have been becuz he was not first in line. However, God chose him over David's other sons. This did not refer to the coming Messiah. Some of the scriptures which speak to the Messiah descending from David are 2 Samuel 7:12-19, Psalms 89:3-4, 34-37; 132:11, Acts 2:30; 13:22-23, Romans 1:3; and 2 Timothy 2:8. These were fulfilled through Mary.

Be encouraged!

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Posted (edited)

The Genealogy of Jesus.

I was studying my Bible, and I came across some things in the Bible (the NT) pertaining to the Messiah-ship of Christ based on his genealogy. According to his genealogy, Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am confused about this.

What do we say about this? The Bible says (based on genealogies) that Jesus is not the Messiah.

1. Luke's version-Jesus descended from Nathan but the Messiah MUST descend from Solomon (1 Chronicles 28:6-7), therefore according to Luke's genealogy Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

2. Matthew's version-Jesus descends from Jeconiah who is cursed to be childless (Jeremiah 22:28-30).

So based on Luke's Genealogy according to the Bible if Jesus descended from Nathan (Son of David) than he CANNOT be the Messiah. Based on Luke's genealogy if Jesus came from Jeconiah-- no wait, he can't come from Jechoniah because God cursed Jeconiah to be childless.

Now I am confused about the Messiah....

I think of this, and feel like a liar. Here on UM I have been spreading the words of Christ. However, according to the Bible I have lied....I am now confused. Yes, I follow God, but this post caused me to wonder about Christ. Because after that post I was forced to re-evaluate my relationship with God. I have come to realize that in my speaking with God Christ has not been mentioned. God and I have spoken many times before about Salvation, and he talks of himself. He says nothing to me of Jesus. Now I am beginning to feel that I have been a victim of tradition and indoctrination, that in order to remain friendly with those Christian who are my friends I have input Christ into my experiences, only to find that I have tricked myself. That this Christ has had nothing to do with my experiences. Yes, I have absolutely definitely experienced God. I KNOW that I have experienced God. But have I experienced Christ? Not directly. Now am I forced to re-evaluate and wonder.

Hiya CoI:)

Question for you, what do you think Christ is?

I am not taking the mickey, I am curious as to what you consider Christ is :)

Edited by Lotus Flower

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28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

I've highlighted the important word.

Besides - Mary's bloodline descends directly from David, doesn't it?

Matthew's is one parents genealogy line and Luke's is the other'. I want to say from memory - Matt's is Joseph's and Luke's Mary's - thus showing that no matter how you look at it - Jesus did decend from David.

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But he has been, and no Mary's bloodline is NOT recorded,lineage is recorded through the Father and according to Matt and Luke the genealogy mentioned is Joseph's, yet Joseph was not the Father of Jesus.

:tu:

Mary's is recorded in Luke 3:23. Joseph is listed as Heli's son because Mary, Heli's daughter, was a woman and males alone were listed in the line. Joseph was Heli's son-in-law therefore making him a son of Heli by marriage. Joesph's blood father was Jacob listed in Matthew 1:16.

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I think of this, and feel like a liar.

This topic has been argued before, but in the end, Jesus Christ is God, not just a mere messiah, which is a saviour of the Jewish people from their enemies... Perhaps over zealous, early Christians wanted to tie in Jesus with this messiah concept to gain more followers -- who knows??? You know the old saying: "If you want it bad enough..." Thank God I'm a 21st century Christian... I'm sure if you ask seanph kindly, he'll give you enough articles to convice you why Jesus Christ is not a mere messiah for the Jewish people. Besides, they are always a good read, and logical. And regardless, Jesus Christ is God, at least to me, with or without the NT.

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You folk know nothing about Jewish customs...Temple Judaism was a patriarchial society, women counted for nothing, the mere chattle of the male. No one anywhere in the OT or NT recorded the linage of a mere woman. Luke and Matthew disagree because they were both making it up...they also disagree about when Jesus was born...they are 11 years apart! So why should they get anything right!

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You folk know nothing about Jewish customs...Temple Judaism was a patriarchial society, women counted for nothing, the mere chattle of the male. No one anywhere in the OT or NT recorded the linage of a mere woman. Luke and Matthew disagree because they were both making it up...they also disagree about when Jesus was born...they are 11 years apart! So why should they get anything right!

Rude and inaccurate - this thread is an honest search for answers... if you have nothing to add please don't insult the rest of us.

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Take heart my friend, you have not been mistaken. There are 2 geneologies for Jesus - Mary's and Joseph's. In Matthew, Joseph's lineage in given, in Luke, Mary's.

Even if Luke's genealogical record is of Mary, it is from Nathan (son of David) when the Messiah is prophesied to come from Solomon.

Matthew's geneology descends from Abraham, Joseph to Jesus because all the Messiah promises are fulfilled in Him. In Luke, the geneology ascends from Jesus to Adam so the relation from the first to the second Adam is established. In Matthew, Joseph is shown to be strictly descended from the royal line of David which makes sense because although Jesus was not a blood relative of Joseph, in the eyes of the law He was Joseph's son and therefore of David's royal line. For the blood relation to David spoken about in prophecy, Luke shows us that Mary is also a descendent of David although not through the royal line.

As for the "difficulty" of Jeconiah, it was through Joseph's lineage that Jeconiah came and because Jesus was not a blood descendent of Joseph the prophecy was strictly fulfilled in that if He had been Joseph's natural son, He could not have come to the throne, but becuz He was Mary's natural son, He could inherit the throne through her marriage to Joseph becuz of her relation to Nathan. So these "difficulties" only confirm the accuracy of the scriptures.

The 1Chron. reference was strictly speaking of Solomon's rule of the nation in life which should not have been becuz he was not first in line. However, God chose him over David's other sons. This did not refer to the coming Messiah. Some of the scriptures which speak to the Messiah descending from David are 2 Samuel 7:12-19, Psalms 89:3-4, 34-37; 132:11, Acts 2:30; 13:22-23, Romans 1:3; and 2 Timothy 2:8. These were fulfilled through Mary.

But Solomon's throne is said to last forever, NOT Nathan's. From Abraham, to Solomon they were promised the eternal throne. These verses are often quoted in reference to the Messiah. And Luke does not say that Mary's genealogy is being recorded but Joseph's.

Luke 3:23 doesn't mention Mary at all. If it was her genealogy it should mention it shouldn't it?

Hiya CoI:)

Question for you, what do you think Christ is?

I am not taking the mickey, I am curious as to what you consider Christ is :)

I don't understand your question.

Mary's is recorded in Luke 3:23. Joseph is listed as Heli's son because Mary, Heli's daughter, was a woman and males alone were listed in the line. Joseph was Heli's son-in-law therefore making him a son of Heli by marriage. Joesph's blood father was Jacob listed in Matthew 1:16.

But in Luke 3:23 it says Joseph is the son of Heli, NOT Mary.

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You folk know nothing about Jewish customs...Temple Judaism was a patriarchial society, women counted for nothing, the mere chattle of the male. No one anywhere in the OT or NT recorded the linage of a mere woman. Luke and Matthew disagree because they were both making it up...they also disagree about when Jesus was born...they are 11 years apart! So why should they get anything right!

Correct, it is through the father that it was recorded.

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Even if Luke's genealogical record is of Mary, it is from Nathan (son of David) when the Messiah is prophesied to come from Solomon.

But Solomon's throne is said to last forever, NOT Nathan's. From Abraham, to Solomon they were promised the eternal throne. These verses are often quoted in reference to the Messiah. And Luke does not say that Mary's genealogy is being recorded but Joseph's.

Luke 3:23 doesn't mention Mary at all. If it was her genealogy it should mention it shouldn't it?

I don't understand your question.

But in Luke 3:23 it says Joseph is the son of Heli, NOT Mary.

The Psalms passage helps with the Solomon thing -"... the Lord said one of your sons..."

See my second response for Heli.

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Luke 3:23

"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

This is the genealogy of Mary......

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Mary's is recorded in Luke 3:23. Joseph is listed as Heli's son because Mary, Heli's daughter, was a woman and males alone were listed in the line. Joseph was Heli's son-in-law therefore making him a son of Heli by marriage. Joesph's blood father was Jacob listed in Matthew 1:16.

Agreed, Moonlit. That was my understanding, too.

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Even if Luke's genealogical record is of Mary, it is from Nathan (son of David) when the Messiah is prophesied to come from Solomon.

But Solomon's throne is said to last forever, NOT Nathan's. From Abraham, to Solomon they were promised the eternal throne. These verses are often quoted in reference to the Messiah. And Luke does not say that Mary's genealogy is being recorded but Joseph's.

Luke 3:23 doesn't mention Mary at all. If it was her genealogy it should mention it shouldn't it?

I don't understand your question.

But in Luke 3:23 it says Joseph is the son of Heli, NOT Mary.

None of the verses that I am aware of speak of Solomon - only of David.

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Rude and inaccurate - this thread is an honest search for answers... if you have nothing to add please don't insult the rest of us.

Maybe rude, but very accurate. (1) Women did not count in Judaism, just as they didn’t count in early Christianity (actually, in most denominations, they still don’t count). Luke and Matthew disagree on linage because they basically winged it. They disagreed on the birth date for the same reason. Matthew says while Herod was king. Herod died in 4 BCE. Luke says while Quirinius was governor of Syria. Quirinius was governor in 6 to 9 CE. Quirinius was not governor any other time, we can account for his where abouts except from 10 to 8 BCE.

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Maybe rude, but very accurate. (1) Women did not count in Judaism, just as they didn’t count in early Christianity (actually, in most denominations, they still don’t count). Luke and Matthew disagree on linage because they basically winged it. They disagreed on the birth date for the same reason. Matthew says while Herod was king. Herod died in 4 BCE. Luke says while Quirinius was governor of Syria. Quirinius was governor in 6 to 9 CE. Quirinius was not governor any other time, we can account for his where abouts except from 10 to 8 BCE.

Women were not respected, but Mary and the others that were with Jesus were loved and respected by the followers of Jesus. Jesus taught his disciples as well as the rest of us to care for the people that others thaough were useless or worthless. It is quite conceivable that the writers of Matthew and Luke were very interested in Mary's lineage as well as Joseph's as the prophecies related to the Messiah were well known by the Jewish population, and the disciples loved and cared for Mary after Jesus ascended. They would have wanted to know Mary's background as well as Joseph's.

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Women were not respected, but Mary and the others that were with Jesus were loved and respected by the followers of Jesus. Jesus taught his disciples as well as the rest of us to care for the people that others thaough were useless or worthless. It is quite conceivable that the writers of Matthew and Luke were very interested in Mary's lineage as well as Joseph's as the prophecies related to the Messiah were well known by the Jewish population, and the disciples loved and cared for Mary after Jesus ascended. They would have wanted to know Mary's background as well as Joseph's.

As for your mentioning the issue of leadership during the birth, It is known that when Quirinius became legate in AD 6 he did order a census for taxation and that this caused an uprising in Judea. Luke himself mentions this in his second book, The Acts of the Apostles. (Acts 5:37 ) Luke makes no attempt to link this census with what he describes as the 'first census' in his gospel account. This has caused some people to wonder if Quirinius might have been a governor of some sorts in this area before. He might then have held a census which could have been described as his 'first census' to distinguish it from this taxation census which happened much later.

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28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

I've highlighted the important word.

How about 2 Samuel 7:12-13 which says:

"And when your days are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever"

In Matthew, Joseph is shown to be strictly descended from the royal line of David which makes sense because although Jesus was not a blood relative of Joseph, in the eyes of the law He was Joseph's son and therefore of David's royal line.

Nope. First of all Joseph is descended from Jeconiah, who God said that no one shall ever sit on the throne of Judah that are descendants of Jeconiah. Secondly, in the eyes of the law, in order to be in the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah, not an adopted son.

As for the "difficulty" of Jeconiah, it was through Joseph's lineage that Jeconiah came and because Jesus was not a blood descendent of Joseph the prophecy was strictly fulfilled in that if He had been Joseph's natural son, He could not have come to the throne, but becuz He was Mary's natural son, He could inherit the throne through her marriage to Joseph becuz of her relation to Nathan. So these "difficulties" only confirm the accuracy of the scriptures.

And since Jesus was not a blood descendant of Joseph, he obviously can't be of the tribe of Judah. Tribal rights were not passed on through the women, it was through the BIOLOGICAL father that it was inherited. Also, according to scriptures the messiah will come from David's bloodline through Solomon (see verse above), not Nathan whom you say fulfills the prophecy through Mary.

This did not refer to the coming Messiah. Some of the scriptures which speak to the Messiah descending from David are 2 Samuel 7:12-19, Psalms 89:3-4, 34-37; 132:11, Acts 2:30; 13:22-23, Romans 1:3; and 2 Timothy 2:8. These were fulfilled through Mary.

They were not fulfilled by Mary, maybe you should get information through a non-christian based source who isn't just going to tell you what you want to hear. (no offense)

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