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knightwalker41

What happened in the begining?

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I believe in the Bible and i believe in creation, but from reading the bible through and reading ancient texts there is a lot more that happened in the time period of genesis that hasnt been included. The Bible shows in the begining that God made the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. but the jewish word that it was translated from could mean 24 hours or 1 million years. I believe in Adam and eve, but there was a lot more that happened that i wish i could find out. Lately im trying to work out whether we all started on earth, whether we were on mars ,or whether we are just going around and around (i.e. Matrix Revolutions, there has been 6 City of Zions and all were destroyed and started again and no one knew). I know that before the Flood (or disaster or whatever it was that caused a lot of creatures and people to disappear) that technology more advanced then we orginally thought. but what did they know? What happened back then?

why was there a disaster? Anyways probably doesnt help answer any questions but its something to think about.

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Face it, Genesis (scholars now believe that it was written in the 5th Century BCE) is an analogy, not factual history....Only Christians believe that it more than a "Morality Story" (Just ask any Jew or Muslim). If you want to know about the beginning, study science, if you want to know about religion, study the Torah, Bible, Koran, or such scriptures of the religion of your choice. thumbsup.gif

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Well face it people trying to disprove adam and eve (Im not saying that was really there names) there had to have been 2 first people somewhere along the line even if your a aithiest

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there had to have been 2 first people somewhere along the line even if your a aithiest

Actually, there doesn't have to be only two, but neither here nor there, why would they have to be "Adam and Eve"? There is no proof that the Judeo-Christian take on the whole matter is the truth, in fact there is more evidence that it is just a fairy tale than not..... thumbsup.gif Incidentally, I am not an Atheist, I believe in the Creator (not the bible god) and am (as my handle implies) a Deist! rolleyes.gif

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So yours assuming that the first human was asexual? never heard of a asexual mammal.

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No he is right, there have never been just 2 humans on Earth in the way that is commonly thought. Populations of species constantly change. We are currently called "Homo Sapiens" but long ago beings in this population were different and would have been classified differently.

Defining where humans began in this gradually changing timeline is as tricky as determining where red starts on a gradual yellow to red color gradient.

So even though the entire human race probably shares common ancestory with a male and female individual a long time ago, it is not necessarily true that these individuals were human, or in fact that they were the only ones of their species.

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alot of ppl think that it was the big bang that started everything me personally i agree with God created us all that is what i was always told and it is what i will always believe.... then there is the Robin Williams thought "in the begining God went click and there was life:. huh.gif

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No he is right, there have never been just 2 humans on Earth in the way that is commonly thought. Populations of species constantly change. We are currently called "Homo Sapiens" but long ago beings in this population were different and would have been classified differently.

Defining where humans began in this gradually changing timeline is as tricky as determining where red starts on a gradual yellow to red color gradient.

So even though the entire human race probably shares common ancestory with a male and female individual a long time ago, it is not necessarily true that these individuals were human, or in fact that they were the only ones of their species.

We are called Homo Sapien Sapien there's two 'sapien'.

It take it that you are referring to evolution in your post? I think that I agree with this one too. That it started with the big bang and we all evolved. Though I frankly don't really care about the beginning - I'll agree with whatever sounds most plausible original.gif. Accoridng to my limited knowledge at this point in time, I'm going for evolution.

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I didnt really start this post as a discussion as a science vs. Religion topic, as that can never really be proved or disproved. God would never come down here and say "right. everyone believe in me or i will smite you all in the next 10 seconds" we have free will, we have minds. We arent like animals who just act on instinct. Maybe God started creation with a big bang. I dont know. And we know from natural selection that species would change to suit their environment (although it has not been proven that a fish will change into a bear or something. whether a fish grows fur or not its still a fish. it still has the same number of dna strands or chromosons), what im really asking as to what happened with the first humans. Whether your an athesist or not, people still must be wondering what happened back then. people have found razor blades for shaving that date back to beginning of the human race. I dont believe humans were club weilding stone age neathdrathls. I believe that they were a lot more advanced. and I believe that maybe they had some ideas that current scientists have not discovered yet.

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please oh please research the concepts you are attempting to argue, at least so you don't look foolish..

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"right. everyone believe in me or i will smite you all in the next 10 seconds"

Do the words "Noah's ark" mean anything to you? huh.gif He DID smite the entire population of the world for not believing in him and sinning....what you really should be asking is why he hasn't done it in a time when the people who would record it aren't ignorant, irrational, supersticious people, for whom a flood really would be considered an act of god tongue.gif

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What I'd like to know is how the heck Noah could have found and kept alive 1.4 million known species of animals (x2) and contained them within an Ark? How big was this thing?

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I'm sorry knightrider, but I'm utterly bewildered by this thread.

What are you trying to ask or say? You seem to be saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong on this) that you believe in the bible "adam and eve" version of creation, but also that we migrated from mars and that we are possibly just the latest incarnation of a species, Matrix style. Then you start talking about the big bang theory, albeit a big bang performed by god, as well as natural selection

How do these separate ideas possibly fit together? Creationism, evolution, aliens and some sort of global reincarnation in one handy package?

And,

I dont believe humans were club weilding stone age neathdrathls. I believe that they were a lot more advanced. and I believe that maybe they had some ideas that current scientists have not discovered yet.

They weren't. Neanderthals were neanderthals. Humans are humans. Different species entirely. Popular evolution theory has it that early homo sapiens survived, eventually becoming modern humans, while the less intelligent neanderthals died out.

And what sort of knowledge do you believe they had that we now don't, other than the knowledge of what saber-tooth tiger tastes and wooly mammoth taste like?

Ad don't get me started on the fish turning into a bear thing. For a more sensible explanation of natural selection you could look here

http://www.biology-online.org/2/11_natural...l_selection.htm

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Oh and doink, at least he didn't have to find room for all the fish, marine mammals, crustaceans etc. They could all just swim near the ark, so they didn't get lost. wink2.gif

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all i can say is LOL grin2.gif

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prehaps your right. maybe im just not sure what my question really is. or where i can get answers. i think its just that im seeing things a bit differently. i read the previous topic that was closed, about what happened before the bible and the jists of the replys were that the bible was religion and that we should look to the current theories of science. I was thinking abit about it and started wondering how does science know it was just - big bang - planets form- seas make life - life starts - dinosaurs evolve - dinosaurs die - humans evolve- humans still currently here. science seems to assume that we came from ape like species and that we started with primative brains and just developed into where we are now my question is what if they werent primative brains? what if they had ideas and concepts that we dont currently understand? i think its possible. But i guess theres no way of finding out.

God sent the flood to wipe out whatever it was that was so terrible that we were doing, however he made a promise never to ever do that again. Hence why no flood now (unless ice caps melt:P), also insurance companies would really have to use the "Act of God" clause tongue.gif

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I am not bashing any religion, since most mainline Christians believe that Genesis is an analogy and not a factual history or science book. I hate to see mythology of any type passed off as history or science, so I will address this myth. Most people who believe that there was a world-wide flood are of the group known as YECs (Young Earth Creationists) and believe that the world “magically” sprang into existence 6000 years ago, that about 2500 BCE (Before Current Era also known as BC) there was a “great world-wide” flood, in which God destroyed everything except Noah, his family and breeding stock (I won’t go into this since there are two separate versions in Genesis as to how many of each animal was chosen). Unfortunately, God neglected to tell the rest of the world that they were under 6 miles of water (see my posting on page 2 of ‘Geologists Demand Removal of Creationist Book’, Main Front Page News), so they carried on as usual, living, breeding, loving, eating, sleeping, making war, and most especially writing! It would seem that the Egyptians, Sumerians, Akkadians, and Chinese would notice all the water, but they didn’t. We have entire recovered libraries of material (histories, non-Hebrew scriptures, business records, business letters, personal letters, diplomatic dispatches, royal proclamations, etc) that were written from 3000 BCE to 1000BCE and later! No where is the flood mentioned, even during the period that it supposedly happened! As for the 6000 year date for the creation, the dating method known as Dendrochonology, using tree rings (wet years and dry years lined up on different trees and wooden artifacts) to date things has pushed back 9000 continuous years to 7000 BCE and ice layer dating to 10000 BCE! Again, I am not bashing any religion, I just hate having mythology pushed at me as a fact! wink2.gif

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I believe there was a worldwide flood in Noah's time.

I also believe the universe and civilizations and planets came and went for millions or billions of years before the creation story picks up.

I'm beggining to think the flood didn't wipe out everyone, but until I work it through, read more, I'm going to stick to the belief that it did, other than those in the ark.

I also think there were not 2 of every species, but more.

I'm not positive on Adam and Eve being the first, only, humans... The first of their kind maybe. But I'm not sure completely how I think that went. Just as easy for me to believe they had 30+ kids and through incest and long lives multiplied rapidly before the Cain incedent.

Neanderthals and such I think were part of the nephilim thing... possibly the neph are also in "our image" and through generations in animal hosts can produce genetic alterations the likes of pigmen or dogmen or minotaurs or what not... don't think they were stupid in the least... quite the opposite... they were like mules... mix breeds... powerful and smart... maybe sterile... probably stubborn... I also think the nephilim are returning as aliens and are continuing this breeding project under this new guise... It's just as easy for people today to believe in technologically advanced alien creators as it was for people back then to believe in magical half-god, many god creators. Same trick, modified for modern consumption.

I also believe that some scientists set out to prove their theory, not discover the truth. Also, data can be mis-read, misinterpreted. Current thought could be proven wrong and change everything... maybe it has and it's in a notebook at the smithsonian. Evidence possibly not discovered yet, coming to conclusions without having all the peices yet... deadlines forcing some to write a report the author doesn't believe in but is stamped with the scientific seal of approval... how many inconclusives can they have before funding is dropped....

I do believe evolution is a true process, but I don't think it's how We got here. As old as I think the universe and our planet are though, I think evolution is inevitable. Just to me it doesn't rule out God at all... or creation. I find it harder to believe in a perfect series of random reactions leading up to me typing this message out... now that takes faith.

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I think evolution is inevitable. Just to me it doesn't rule out God at all

Spoken like a true Deist- Bravo. As far as the flood goes, you must explain why the highly literate societies of that time continued without interruption and made no mention of a planetwide ocean 6 miles deep.....They were there, they surely would have noticed that much rain! rolleyes.gif

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I was thinking abit about it and started wondering how does science know it was just - big bang - planets form- seas make life - life starts - dinosaurs evolve - dinosaurs die - humans evolve- humans still currently here

You see my friend...this is the crucial, defining factor in why I follow science instead of religion...Scientist research their theories...and it takes a great deal of very solid proof indeed before something can actually be accepted by the mainstream scientific community. Theories are put through meticulous scrutiny before they can be accepted, tried, tested, and proven to within a near impossible marigin or error to be the most likely course of events.

For religion, there is no research...there is no logical thinking and there is no proof; all there is, is blind 'faith' that an event occured, with no evidence and no real thinking about whether or not it was true. Science is able to 'assume' what it does after painstaking research that religion simply does not undertake...which is also why it's far more likely to be correct.

All you have to do is look higher up in this thread, were the comment...

We have entire recovered libraries of material (histories, non-Hebrew scriptures, business records, business letters, personal letters, diplomatic dispatches, royal proclamations, etc) that were written from 3000 BCE to 1000BCE and later! No where is the flood mentioned, even during the period that it supposedly happened!

Was immedietly followed by the comment by the next poster...

I believe there was a worldwide flood in Noah's time.

To see how irrational the very ideas of religion are, and how flatly some of its more devout followers refuse to look facts in the face huh.gif

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to quote our Christ Cultist friends "Amen Seraphina Amen!" thumbsup.gif

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according to what ive read moses was around 3000bc. the flood happened much much much earlier. hence why theres no record of around that time. And i understand that science is tested and proved to extents, but science cant explain everything. take love for instance. some scientists believe its just a hormone. but if thats true then why do people sacrifice themselves for their loved one?. Why do people committ to each other? it would make more scense if we all just kept multiplying and never thought about love. why are their ghosts and angels and demons and the occult? theres got to be a spiritual side to this universe that cant have been created by random chance. I believe we are here for a reason and a purpose and for me that could only come from God.

I understand what you are saying that the events recorded in genesis are not easily scientifical proven. but there is proof for the flood, scientists have documented how using geology they have discovered that in the area of the middle east there was at some time a large flood. and i understand that scientists have found a few skulls that appear to look like a cross between an ape and a human but ive also read that they have found skulls that look identical to modern day humans that when dated come out as the same time period as the ape like ones. yet these were considered irrelevant because they dont fit the evolution theory. Im sure that there is enough evidence out there for scientists to disprove evolution of man from apes, it they wanted to find it. anyways as i said before i didnt want to turn this into a Religion vs Science debate. I just wondered if anyone else had any thoughts as to the theory that we werent unsophicated cavemen.

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if you don't want to turn it into a debate, perhaps you should actually research what you are talking.

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they have discovered that in the area of the middle east there was at some time a large flood

One second...let me just tune up my sarcasm engine properly...*coughs*....

Okay, ready now grin2.gif

WOA! You're kidding! There was actually a flood in the middle east at some point in history! Wow! Well, I'm convinced cool.gif

*sighs*

I'm afraid I agree with Bathory...and no, the sarcasm engine isn't still running tongue.gif...I think you'll find the tendancy to 'ignore facts' that don't fit into their belief system is one that falls very much in the other camp rather than scientific circles...what is more often than not cited as 'dismissal of facts' is actually when the scientific world chooses to disregard radical or outlandish concepts...now this is the important part...because of lack of proof, or excessive proof to the contrary.

I'm still waiting, I'm afraid, for someone to come up with a fraction of the real evidence that might actually lend credibility to creationism as there is for evolution...I'm not planning on holding my breath for it either wink2.gif

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i mean, crap, believe what you want to believe

but don't insult our intelligence and present evidence that doesn't exist.

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