Consummate Deist Posted January 16, 2004 #26 Share Posted January 16, 2004 what is more often than not cited as 'dismissal of facts' is actually when the scientific world chooses to disregard radical or outlandish concepts...now this is the important part...because of lack of proof, or excessive proof to the contrary. Over on the Exchristian.net website, they have a saying - "Those making Fantastic or Extraordinary Claims must present Fantastic or Extraordinary Proof in order to be taken seriously". That might be a good point for this forum, at least when debating mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 16, 2004 #27 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Ah, but you see my Deist friend...a claim that present no better evidence than something "Fantastic or Extraordinary", as opposed to proof based on clear, observable...or at the very least plausible...facts, isn't a theory, it's merely speculation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celumnaz Posted January 16, 2004 #28 Share Posted January 16, 2004 If someone want's scientific proof of the flood just go look for it. Here's a quick spoonfeed. http://www.hi.is/~joner/eaps/wh_noah.htm http://www.dinosaursandcreation.com/slideshow3m.htm http://www.mesora.org/tsinai-2.html http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/aflood3.htm http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah4.htm http://pages.zdnet.com/rwfortune/sitebuild...ereanyproof.htm And I could go on and on and on and on. From Canada to the Dead Sea to Ireland and on there are proofs for those scientists who care to recognize them. Some scientists wouldn't believe in God if he punched them in the face, and are as much a hinderance to the truth than some of those idiotic fanatics on the religious side. I don't blindly believe all science. I don't believe in all the environmental problems scientists tout. One scientist will say one thing and another will have completely different results. Think the Bible contradicts itself? Listen to science. Wasn't the world going to end in the 70's due to global cooling? I'm not saying don't listen to science at all, but use the brain God gave you. Once you've got the idea that God is malarky, and you don't want to be wrong, you will no longer look at both sides of an issue but only the side you hold dear. Scientists. I swear I saw a Discovery Channel program that gave many scientific accounts on the flood being a real event. I'm talking "The Flood" not "A Flood"... we know what we're talking about here. The not so local event. Now, could someone spoon feed me a link to what Consummate Deist was talking about "‘Geologists Demand Removal of Creationist Book’, Main Front Page News" please? I can't find it and I actually like to keep an open mind about both sides and would like to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 16, 2004 #29 Share Posted January 16, 2004 You know, I'm not proposing that there never was a flood that may have sparked off the story of Noah's ark...however, one of the very links you posted reads "the possible source of the Old Testament story of Noah." Not evidence...but the SOURCE of what may have sparked the story... Simply because there may once have been a flood that might even have inspired the story, it does not mean that the flood was caused by God, and I think all the facts point very firmly in the direction of it being a local event. If there are any scientists out there arguing that two of every type of animal, and a handful of people could great the diverse gene pool that exists today, then they're not scientists, they're morons Tell me...have you ever heard of "The Epic of Gilgamesh"? It's a very interesting story, dating from the Sumarians...who were most likely the earliest civilisation on our planet (predating the old testament by some time)....now...one of the interesting things is that this story is, essentially, the story of Noah's arc...with the essential details changed, but overall the same story... ...Now...this story was written thousands of years before Noah's flood supposedly happened...so what does this mean children? In short, it means that the most likely possibility is that Noah's arc, just like the crusifix and any number of other stories and holy symbols in the Christian Religion was stolen or assembled from beliefs and cultures that came before them. At most, based on an actual event that was heavily dramatised when someone of the time perhaps found out about the Epic of Gilgamesh and thought it was real...and at the more likely end of the spectrum, a work of pure...pilfered...fantasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celumnaz Posted January 16, 2004 #30 Share Posted January 16, 2004 lol, we're just never going to agree... well, I can't say never... keeping on keeping on... Ok, so there possibly was a flood. Trying to find some common ground. I can concede that it possibly wasn't caused by God since we can't agree if there is/isn't one... but there was a flood. Now the facts pointing it to be a local event... Hmmm... we're going to have to go for real facts here and it could get tricky. Luckily the few links I copied and pasted do talk about different locations around the world. There were many more links of proof positive I found thanks to Google, but I can't agree that it was local. Show me some of these all the facts pointing firmly that it was local, please? There were more than 2 of every animal, the handfull of people were of different race. There's not much agrument about that amongst those who have really read the bible... even the scientific minded morons. Perfectly explains our diverse gene pool, especially coupled with evolution/mutation/adaptation to climate/terrain over time. What's the problem? Yes, I have heard of Gilgamesh... read it once too 15-20 years ago... Ok, once again someone's going to have to provide some facts or we go nowhere and I start reverting back to that faith thing again and I don't wanna do that but it's habbit. I don't think the Sumerians were The Earliest Civilaztion... there were other small ones, but that's kinda moot for what we're talking about... And when you say predating you mean the Sumerians predated the writing of the Old Testament, irregardless that the OT starts at The Beginning before the Sumerians right? Couple things there... What dates is Gilgamesh set in, and what dates is Noah's story supposedly set in? I'm terrible at math and dates but I'd like to know the truth, and if this is the point of contention please provide the dates to rub in my face and I'll go from there. But it's not like nobody's written a story that hasn't come true before. Anyway, if the Writing of the Epic predates the supposed Time of Noah then I have some research to do, until I see the dates (I'm no researcher, orator, or debator) I'll stick with my belief because well... it makes sense to this "child". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celumnaz Posted January 16, 2004 #31 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Ok, with my Vastly Inferior research skills I found dates of... Gilgamesh written 2000BC Noah Living around 2304 BC plus or minus 11 years Old Testament Written in the 15th Century BCE whatever that means Hating math, and dates, would someone like to give an analysis or even better if they could find better dates then tell me in plain engrish what came first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novo Posted January 17, 2004 #32 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Wow! Isnt there some rule against Relegion bashing? Regardless what you guys think , Its is very rude to call Christians "Cultists" If you dont believe like we do good for you. That gives you no excuse to harrass us. Were not all Charlatans and liers. Its mainly the huge "Corporate" Churches that do all this bogus scamming ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantis Rises Posted January 17, 2004 #33 Share Posted January 17, 2004 I believe in the Bible and i believe in creation, but from reading the bible through and reading ancient texts there is a lot more that happened in the time period of genesis that hasnt been included. The Bible shows in the begining that God made the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. but the jewish word that it was translated from could mean 24 hours or 1 million years. I believe in Adam and eve, but there was a lot more that happened that i wish i could find out. Lately im trying to work out whether we all started on earth, whether we were on mars ,or whether we are just going around and around (i.e. Matrix Revolutions, there has been 6 City of Zions and all were destroyed and started again and no one knew). I know that before the Flood (or disaster or whatever it was that caused a lot of creatures and people to disappear) that technology more advanced then we orginally thought. but what did they know? What happened back then? why was there a disaster? Anyways probably doesnt help answer any questions but its something to think about. The only thing I believe in the Bible is the ancient flood story because other ancient civilizations claimed to have witnessed this flood and wrote their stories down in text and/or on stone. I believe the Bible isn't all it claims to be. A lot of its stories are derived from stories of other ancient civilizations long before the Bible and then adapted to suit a Godly purpose. And what angers me the most is that it doesn't give credit to the real authors of these stolen tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted January 17, 2004 #34 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Testament, irregardless that the OT starts at The Beginning before the Sumerians right? thats a non-issue, what we have is a book written in 15 bc vs a book as you detailed, written in 2000bc, just because one book claims that its event occured before doesn't make it any more valid. It would be like me writing a book called Harry Potte, about a boy wizard at a school for Wizards named Hogwust, and then saying that the events occur before those that happen in Harry Potter, sure this is an exageration, but i think the point is shown? Gilgamesh written 2000BC I've read 3000BC... Hating math, and dates, would someone like to give an analysis or even better if they could find better dates then tell me in plain engrish what came first... its somewhat irrelevant as to which came first storywise, the Epic of Giglamesh was written 1985 - 2985 years prior to the Old Testament. (If my maths aren't as bad as i think they are:P). I've just been through those links, and i must say, very interesting:) although it seems much of it points to the melting of the icecaps, which i guess is quite plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 17, 2004 #35 Share Posted January 17, 2004 *grins at Consummate Deist, and shrugs* All you have to do is look higher up in this thread, were the comment... We have entire recovered libraries of material (histories, non-Hebrew scriptures, business records, business letters, personal letters, diplomatic dispatches, royal proclamations, etc) that were written from 3000 BCE to 1000BCE and later! No where is the flood mentioned, even during the period that it supposedly happened! Was immedietly followed by the comment by the next poster... I believe there was a worldwide flood in Noah's time. To see how irrational the very ideas of religion are, and how flatly some of its more devout followers refuse to look facts in the face It....didn't take them very long to prove me right either The evidence against the flood being worldwide, my humble friend, is actually far easier, and less circumstancial, than evidence for it...unless you're proposing that, for example, the cultures Diest mentioned simple...chose to ignore this gigantic flood that was smothering their countries? Amazes me...it really does... Anyway, claiming that the old testament came 'in the beginning', is assuming that its contents is real...and again, there is far greater evidence to suggest that it is not. We have already proven that the earth is somewhere in the region of five billion years old, and we've already proven that rather a lot occured that the bible simple...forget, perhaps? You see, the bible was written by human beings...human beings who probably thought they were the beginning, because they lived in a time of absolute ignorance of the world around them. And I also agree with Bathory, 3000bc is more like what I remember for Gilgamesh...couldn't give you an exact date, but I'm very posative indeed that it predates the author of the bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 17, 2004 #36 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Ok im gonna clear something up here. Gilgamesh lived around 2700 BC, His epic was mostly "wriiten" in 2000BC by the sumerians. The flood (in relation to messopotania & gilgamesh) took place sometime before that when the gods had a counsel in the city of Shuruppak where it was decided taht humans would all be killed iin a huge flood (BUMMER ), only 1 man and his wife were "permitted"(this was given by a deceitful god named EA) to live. This man was the king of said city named Utnapishtim he gathered all living things an put them on a boat (sound familiar?), also the dove part from noah's story is also here although it was finally a raven that finds a perch to land on. Take from that what you will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 17, 2004 #37 Share Posted January 17, 2004 BTW the only guy to survive the flood was apparantly given immortality. Anyone ever met him? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 17, 2004 #38 Share Posted January 17, 2004 im also gonna add that im not arguing either flood or story took place before each other ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIrishVampiress Posted January 17, 2004 #39 Share Posted January 17, 2004 well, i think you're all looking to deep into the 'facts'. i think its poss that all religions are based on truth only they change and add to it to their own liking and previous beliefs. i also would like to believe we didnt evolve from ape men, but if the proofs there, what can i say? is there actual proof that we evolved from them? i dont know, sorry if i sound ill-informed i am i am myself brought up as a catholic, im forced to attend mass until im 18 tho i dont believe all the mumbo jumbo the old man rambles about (the parish priest ). religions branch off from each other. stories from older religions are taken by newer ones and adapted into their own beliefs. i have chosen to believe in god, not religion. (though its poss i wrong , im only young! ) also...im dreading mass tonight (note to more devoted catholics: dont hate me, i dont hate you!) lots o' love katie "only dead fish go with the flow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 17, 2004 #40 Share Posted January 17, 2004 hmm...if you hate mass so much, then don't you have a right to choose not to go? It's a right I certainly enjoyed exercising in the later years of school when Strathclyde regional council realised religious exercises didn't have any right to be compulsary in schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIrishVampiress Posted January 17, 2004 #41 Share Posted January 17, 2004 ma mommy makes me and she gets really upset when i insult the church. i tell her i can pray to the lord right here in ma comfy bed instead of going out in the pouring rain and cold to sit in a stinky old building with stinky old hacking people. she gets very upset and says i will attend mass until im 18 and that she dont give a rats ass what i do after then. which is a lie coz she loves me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 17, 2004 #42 Share Posted January 17, 2004 It's interesting...I was actually talking to my mother earlier today about all these lovely little debates we have...and for those who haven't read it elsewhere, she's a Christian... Eventually, she declaired that, thanks to me she had no chance of getting into heaven anymore, because God would look at her and say she gave birth to...um...'devil spawn'. Now, she did say this as a joke, but it does interest me that religious folk in general do seem to have this...rather misplaced dread of what might happen to them if they assossiate with athiests...or at the very least, people who aren't as pious as they are. I've known religious people that refused to talk to me when they found out I was an athiest...I know religious people who'll refuse an offering of a lift from me because they're utterly convinced that, if they get in a car with me, they'll be struck down by God... ....very...bizarre Anyway, I know it's off topic, but you just made me think about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIrishVampiress Posted January 17, 2004 #43 Share Posted January 17, 2004 hehe thats mothers for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 18, 2004 #44 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Seraphina Thats rather extreme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 18, 2004 #45 Share Posted January 18, 2004 It is, isn't it But don't look at me, I only work here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Posted January 18, 2004 #46 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Anyone going to mention that the flood account in the Epic of Gilgamesh tells of a local river flood not a global flood? and there were other survivors (clearly as it wasn't global). Also local cattle were taken onto the boat, not every animal on Earth. Subsequent versions, the old testament containing one of them, have become more and more over-exagerated with hills becoming mountains and the local flood becoming global. The characters were also changed to suit the current religious fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIrishVampiress Posted January 18, 2004 #47 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Anyone going to mention that the flood account in the Epic of Gilgamesh tells of a local river flood not a global flood? and there were other survivors (clearly as it wasn't global). Also local cattle were taken onto the boat, not every animal on Earth. Subsequent versions, the old testament containing one of them, have become more and more over-exagerated with hills becoming mountains and the local flood becoming global. The characters were also changed to suit the current religious fashion. exactly what i said. religions change the orginal stories to their own liking, making it difficult to determine what actually happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted January 19, 2004 #48 Share Posted January 19, 2004 man explains things the best its mind can grasp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celumnaz Posted January 19, 2004 #49 Share Posted January 19, 2004 It's interesting...I was actually talking to my mother earlier today about all these lovely little debates we have...and for those who haven't read it elsewhere, she's a Christian... oo how wierd... My dad's athiest... he says you die you turn to dirt end of story... can't find a more rational guy. Has his degrees and a history of international business deals... Tall Blonde hair hazel eyes... I'm quite the dissappointment being short and all brown... and Christian... I can also understand why Some religious types wouldn't want to talk to an athiest... it's a challenge to their faith. Many things are Impossible to rationalize, and if their knowledge or intellect is weak they will succomb to the agruments of the "rational" and lose their faith. I know my dad's challenged my faith in many ways... still does... If I had weak faith I'd be athiest by now too... Yeah it's off topic, but I'm tired of trying to figure out the truth this morning... rather listen to some music or something... Well, to keep it semi-on topic... Do I have this order right? Flood of some kind. Gilgamesh written. OT written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 19, 2004 #50 Share Posted January 19, 2004 yes celumnaz thats right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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