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tralalala

Religion vs IQ

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There have been lots of studies over the years showing that generally, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this?

http://w-uh.com/posts/031226a-religion_vs_IQ.html

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligen...%20religion.htm

edited to add: the second link posts all of it's sources and is really interesting, the first is just easier to understand

Edited by tralalala

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Religious people accept circumstantial evidence and atheists require forensic evidence to back up their beliefs. I would say that vouches for the credibility of atheism being more intellectually defensible (thus attracting a different crowd) than religion.

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There will always be exceptions to any stats. i know people with very high IQ's who still insist to indulge themselves in religion. I'm not sure how you explain away these people, they are obviously not stupid or gullible.

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There will always be exceptions to any stats. i know people with very high IQ's who still insist to indulge themselves in religion. I'm not sure how you explain away these people, they are obviously not stupid or gullible.

Oh, of course there are exceptions, I know some very smart Christians, Jews, etc, the studies just say that on average, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious, not that all religious people are stupid.

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I can't really speak for statistics in studies, but only from experiences. I have met some very smart and very dumb Christians and non-Christians, and many in between as well. I have not noticed any real difference between the intelligence levels of Christians I meet to non-Christians I meet.

That said, the IQ is a very one-dimensional way of looking at the human intellect. If you ever study up on Psychology, and particularly the theories of Multiple Intelligences (cf, Howard Gardner), the concept of IQ becomes less and less useful in finding out a person's knowledge and understanding.

All the best,

~ Regards, PA

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I don't think this is true. If you take any belief system, 90% of those who believe it can't even tell you what it is properly. The other 10% are usually very smart.

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The first website makes an important statement:

Remember my missive about correlation vs. causality? We're not entitled to conclude causality from these data, but there are three possibilities:

1. Considering religion important lowers measured IQ (unlikely, since IQ is substantially genetic whereas belief is not).

2. The causality is via other factors not considered, such as socio-economic conditions, cultural history, or physical environment (definitely possible).

3. Having a higher measured IQ lowers your likelihood of considering religion important (my personal favorite, given the absence of evidence to the contrary).

I would be leaning towards number two. Consider an urban population that has lots of churches, underfunded schools, and a low high-school-to-college ratio. Also throw in gangs and understaffed faculty in these schools due to budget cuts. Most likely these individuals will score lower academically, but I assure you religion is very important in these communities. It's what binds many of these urban communities together. There are other dynamics you could include as well.

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Oh, of course there are exceptions, I know some very smart Christians, Jews, etc, the studies just say that on average, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious, not that all religious people are stupid.

I get ya tralala - your not saying "All religious people are stupid". I worked at a Catholic Uni and didn't rock up on the first day with papyrus in hand. Of course in day to day life there is absolutely no discernable difference in the intellect of religious and nonreligious people.

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I can't really speak for statistics in studies, but only from experiences. I have met some very smart and very dumb Christians and non-Christians, and many in between as well. I have not noticed any real difference between the intelligence levels of Christians I meet to non-Christians I meet.

That said, the IQ is a very one-dimensional way of looking at the human intellect. If you ever study up on Psychology, and particularly the theories of Multiple Intelligences (cf, Howard Gardner), the concept of IQ becomes less and less useful in finding out a person's knowledge and understanding.

All the best,

~ Regards, PA

exactly Pa exactly ditto...Its so superficial its a joke, one simply uses their short term memory stuffs if full of data takes a test...one of a few variety's that is supposed to show IQ and voila you have BS... a very big money maker by the way..

Gosh the public is so easily duped.....IMO

i know some genuis's that are christian,jewish.. it means nothing...i know some idiot NB's too...

Edited by Supra Sheri

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There have been lots of studies over the years showing that generally, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious.

What happen to Rene Descartes, Issac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Albert Einstein and Erwin Schrodinger then? :blink:

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What happen to Rene Descartes, Issac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Albert Einstein and Erwin Schrodinger then? :blink:

They had it nailed into them at a younger age just like the rest of them. Just because they're intelligent doesn't mean they don't fear death and the nothingness thereafter.

And as far as Atheists being smarter than Theists? I've met people from both groups and can safely say that theres an equal amount of inbred lacktards on both sides.

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They had it nailed into them at a younger age just like the rest of them. Just because they're intelligent doesn't mean they don't fear death and the nothingness thereafter.

I never said that. They were however religious and very bright or revolutionary thinkers.

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http://ken-jennings.com/blog/?p=287

I'm sure you've all heard of the jeopardy star Ken Jennings, this is a link to his blog where he was challenged by pro poker player David Schlanksy.

Ken Jennings, a mormon, was challenged to pass a polygraph test affirming that he believes in his religion. If he passes, he may take an IQ test challenge again David for fifty grand.

It's exactly what this thread is talking about though. David made a statement that no one who believes in god can be smarter than him. Thus the challenge.

Edited by BlindMessiah

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I never said that. They were however religious and very bright or revolutionary thinkers.

Einstein were not religious, its a false claim you realy should have read up upon before claiming as fact. Its an old argument which have been debunked a ton of times, come on =/

believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings - Einstein

Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy for truth - einstein

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestation of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this sense alone, I am a deeply religious man. - einstein

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. - einstein

The best label for einstein would be either atheist or the I guess mosst fitting term "Pantheist"

Now I would like to end with one last quote that I take pride in following myself but so far pretty much havent seen anyone else do on these boards.

"learn to say, "I do not know" or "learn to say "I was wrong" ;)

Edited by Condescending

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^Einstein was not atheist. He did not believe in a PERSONAL GOD, but that does not mean he did not believe in god. His reason for seeking scientific answers was to seek answers for what god is. While he was definitely not a Christian, it is a fallacy to suggest that he was an atheist. He believed in a God, so perhaps he was a Deist, or perhaps Pantheist as you suggest. But not atheist in any way. All the best,

~ PA

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It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. - einstein

The best label for einstein would be either atheist or the I guess mosst fitting term "Pantheist"

Yes, Einstein was indeed a Scientific Pantheist.

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Whilst I am likely to generally agree with the statistics and presumption made in the OP links (due to personal experience), I am slightly hesitant for one major reason - IQ tests are just too inacurate. I have taken many tests and have scored in the range 108 to 124. That is a huge discrepancy. My personal theory is that my scores have varied wildy due to a few factors. The biggest is my appallingly poor mental arythmatic skills. If a test has a large proportion of questions that require this kind of thinking I score badly. I do pretty well at the questions involving language and vocabulary. I score better in tests that favour these types of question.

IQ tests rarely seem balanced and produce a range of results just for one individual (me) so whilst it might be a statistically provable fact that as the IQ goes up religiosity goes down, such a wide range of factors go into the catch all term of "Intelligence" that these studies can't be used to say religious people are more stupid than non-religious people. I simply believe that IQ tests are not a fair way to judge intelligence. A poorly educated person will certainly score lower than an educated one. This shows most IQ tests measure and score education level rather than intelligence. Uneducated people can be very smart people quite obviously. Tribal people with no formal education systems must have very smart individuals in their groups working out practical things for aiding survival. The same goes for those who live on city streets. Even though a test may be adapted for language and relevence to a particular group an intelligent tribesman may score poorly in a test due to the fact the concept means nothing to him. You could then show that the tribesman believes in spirits, and scored poorly on the IQ test therefore stupid people believe in spirits which is not correct at all.

I am not religious in any way at all, I am a materialist in that context but I don't feel that this is a useful way to bash the religious. There are many better ways ;-)

Edited by Papaver

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^Einstein was not atheist. He did not believe in a PERSONAL GOD, but that does not mean he did not believe in god. His reason for seeking scientific answers was to seek answers for what god is. While he was definitely not a Christian, it is a fallacy to suggest that he was an atheist. He believed in a God, so perhaps he was a Deist, or perhaps Pantheist as you suggest. But not atheist in any way. All the best,

~ PA

Einstein did not believe in God, or a god as the term is normally understood, but he would say, on many occasions, criticizing the indeterminacy of quantum theory:

God does not play dice.

By that, he meant that nature is orderly and maintains causal relationships.

He typically used "the Lord" or God, as a metaphor for nature and the natural order, but Einstein did not believe in the ordinary conception of a personal or anthropomorphic deity.

-

I am not a fan of unsupported claims I must admit. Could you point me in the direction of a valid source explaining that the reason he was a scientist was to seek answer for what god is?

Edit: I removed whole since you commented on it and I look forward to those quotes m8, sleep tight.

I cant help but point out things that are too black/white dont be annoyed about it please :)

Edited by Condescending

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^I'll get to you on that tomorrow (too tired right now). But to be sure, I did not say this was the WHOLE reason of Einstein's work. However, after re-reading my post I do see how I may have given that impression. I was simply stating that one of the reasons Einstein sought scientific answers was to understand "God" better. I'll provide quotes tomorrow. All the best, Condescending.

~ PA

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I think it's rather pointless to compare the IQs of non-believers and believers. First of IQ is a very bad tool, since it's biased as to what the people creating the IQ test find important. If you haven't been taught math then you'd be stupid in some tests, but actually the only thing it says is that you haven't had access to a decent education or perhaps any education at all. Second it requires that you are free to encounter other thoughts that those prevalent in your society. If you'd never heard of atheism (or a twisted version) then you haven't really had a fair chance for a choice. The same goes the other way around.

I think it's more interesting to look at the belief ratio among those who actually deal with the areas of science where god is most often said to play a role, like biology and such and see how many believe there and take their background into consideration.

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It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. - einstein

The best label for einstein would be either atheist or the I guess mosst fitting term "Pantheist"

You know little about Einstein. He was religious but just more individualistic and free minded about it. It has never been debunked that he wasnt religious. It has only ever been shown that disagreed with what most conventional organized religion says and never advocated a personal God:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

Unconventional but religious neverthless.

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

Einstein even states in the quote you posted:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

---Albert Einstein

Here he admits that he has religious convictions and explains that these religious conviction entail an 'unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.'

He is einstein expounding on his religious convictions once again:

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. (Albert Einstein,The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)

Just because he wasnt religious in the stereo-type conventional way doesnt mean he wasnt religious.

Einstein even admits that science has its roots in the sphere of religion (Einstein's interpretation of what religion is of course)

But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. (Albert Einstein, 1941)

Also pantheism which you say is a fitting term for Einstein is a religious view:

Pantheism

1. the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations: it involves a denial of God's personality and expresses a tendency to identify God and nature.

2. any religious belief or philosophical doctrine that identifies God with the universe.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pantheism

However Einstein didnt believe in the transcendent reality part of pantheism. He puts across that he believes in a spirit that fucntions as natural laws.

He wasnt into the mystic point of view of pantheism as he himself outlines:

What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. (Albert Einstein)

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning. (Albert Einstein)

And yet he implies that he wasnt quite an atheist:

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

(Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? 2001, chapter 3.)

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)

I believe einstein would openly admit that he was religious (though that is my subjective view) however he would outline that his view of religion and being religious is, is quite different to how we would assume.

Being not quite a conventional religious believer or conventional atheist kinda leaves us in the dark. I have wrote in another post that there is no definitive summary of what his religious views are.

Edited by brave_new_world

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You know little about Einstein. He was religious but just more individualistic and free minded about it. It has never been debunked that he wasnt religious. It has only ever been shown that disagreed with what most conventional organized religion says and never advocated a personal God:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

Unconventional but religious neverthless.

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

Einstein even states in the quote you posted:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

---Albert Einstein

Here he admits that he has religious convictions and explains that these religious conviction entail an 'unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.'

He is einstein expounding on his religious convictions once again:

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. (Albert Einstein,The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)

Just because he wasnt religious in the stereo-type conventional way doesnt mean he wasnt religious.

Einstein even admits that science has its roots in the sphere of religion (Einstein's interpretation of what religion is of course)

But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. (Albert Einstein, 1941)

Also pantheism which you say is a fitting term for Einstein is a religious view:

Pantheism

1. the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations: it involves a denial of God's personality and expresses a tendency to identify God and nature.

2. any religious belief or philosophical doctrine that identifies God with the universe.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pantheism

However Einstein didnt believe in the transcendent reality part of pantheism. He puts across that he believes in a spirit that fucntions as natural laws.

He wasnt into the mystic point of view of pantheism as he himself outlines:

What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. (Albert Einstein)

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning. (Albert Einstein)

And yet he implies that he wasnt quite an atheist:

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

(Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? 2001, chapter 3.)

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)

I believe einstein would openly admit that he was religious (though that is my subjective view) however he would outline that his view of religion and being religious is, is quite different to how we would assume.

now you just need to read into how einstein viewed "god" or "gods" and we will most likely agree.

And quite frankly, by quoting 5 of his most famous quotes and commenting on them doesnt make you knowledgeable on einstein or in any way knowledgeable about how much I know about him, give me a break :D

Edited by Condescending

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^Einstein was not atheist. He did not believe in a PERSONAL GOD, but that does not mean he did not believe in god. His reason for seeking scientific answers was to seek answers for what god is. While he was definitely not a Christian, it is a fallacy to suggest that he was an atheist. He believed in a God, so perhaps he was a Deist, or perhaps Pantheist as you suggest. But not atheist in any way. All the best,

~ PA

It is interesting to note that no one can come up with a definitive answer to what einstein believed when it comes to his religious convictions. It is the same with Gandhi and his definition of what religion is.

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now you just need to read into how einstein viewed "god" or "gods" and we will most likely agree.

And quite frankly, by quoting 5 of his most famous quotes and commenting on them doesnt make you knowledgeable on einstein or in any way knowledgeable about how much I know about him, give me a break :D

I have read up on what God says on God. God disbelieves in a personal God who punishes and rewards. That doesnt make one an atheist. Einstein says that the greatest experience is the mystical and yet denies mysticism. He says there is no personal God yet he says he believes in an infinitely superior spirit that cannot be completely known by the mind.

Einstein was very unconventional, philosophical, scientific and religious.

This in my view puts Einstein quite easily under the label (though no one should be labelled) of religious.

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It goes to prove to me that religion is such a powerful worm that it can infect even the greatest of minds. Most ordinary folk don't stand a chance.

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