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Nxt2Hvn

American soldier flees to Canada

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US soldier on frontline in battle for refugee status

Family moved to Canada after private refused to fight in 'dehumanising' Iraq war

Jonathan Franklin

Saturday February 21, 2004

The Guardian

US army private Jeremy Hinzman fought in Afghanistan and considers himself a patriot. But when his unit was ordered to Iraq, he refused to go and embarked on a radical journey that could make legal history.

Private first class Hinzman left the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment, taking his wife and son to Canada. Officially, he is awol (absent without leave), and, instead of fighting insurgents, he is battling the US military in the Canadian courts.

This month Pte Hinzman, 25, filed legal papers to become the first US soldier objecting to the Iraq war to be granted refugee status in Canada. His case is expected to be a test of new Canadian immigration laws and the country's traditional role of accepting refugees from the US military.

An estimated 250 Americans every year seek refugee status in Canada, the vast majority making mental health claims, according to Jeffrey House, a Toronto criminal defence lawyer who represents Pte Hinzman.

Full Story

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American soldier flees to Canada, What a Coward!

While I don't agree with the term "coward"...he is, after all, practicing his beliefs about the Iraqi war, which he considers unjust...where in the cowardice in going against orders to stand up for what you believe in?...I do believe that, when you sign yourself up for the armed forces, are lose yourself the luxury of being able to pick and choose where you're sent and what you do there.

At the end of the day his country requires him to do a job, and he has an obligaction to carry that out.

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I do believe that, when you sign yourself up for the armed forces, are lose yourself the luxury of being able to pick and choose where you're sent and what you do there.

At the end of the day his country requires him to do a job, and he has an obligaction to carry that out.

Okay.. I can agree with this! wink2.gif

Exactly! thumbsup.gif People need to think things through before they commit to joining the armed forces. I think a lot of people sign up for free education and all the perks.. not thinking the possibility of military action... which is what the military is really for.

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Anyone who joins the army in the first place is most certainly not a coward. Trouble is though, if you join the army, you know the rules. You know you may have to go to war, and you know you may not necessarily agree with that particular war.

A 'coward' is not the right word, but he really shouldn't have signed up in the first place if he wasn't prepared to stick with his job through thick and thin.

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Yeah dave you and seraphina are 100% right.

I agree he should have carried out his duty as he knew he was going to have to.

I dont think he should be called a coward, he has ofcourse already fought for his country and its a bit uncalled for to call him a coward.

Knew what he was gettin himself into though.

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I agree with you people.

However peoples views and attitudes change with the times and as they get older. Could it not be possible that this man who signed up to the army was truly ready for anything at that moment in time but since then maybe his views, attitudes have changed?

This to me would be quite sad really that he feels the need to run because there is no other alternative when there should be!

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This to me would be quite sad really that he feels the need to run because there is no other alternative when there should be!

I might be mistaken, but aren't soldiers able to buy themselves out of the army or some such thing?

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I might be mistaken, but aren't soldiers able to buy themselves out of the army or some such thing?

I have never heard of any such thing... but I don't know.

I know back in the day.. you could pretend to be gay and get a dishonorable discharge....but It doesn't work now days!

Edited by Nxt2Hvn

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I might be mistaken, but aren't soldiers able to buy themselves out of the army or some such thing?

Not in the US, but I don't know about the rest of the world. Once you are in, you serve until you are injured, dead, or the date on your contract...

Leaving the country when you have already given your word of honor to support and defend it is frowned upon...

He can't come back to the US without serving jail time...and a dishonorable discharge.

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I'm not sure the word coward applies. The man did serve in Afganistan. But it may be that he felt that his service was completed because he had already served in a war zone, and that it was unjust to be sent back to another war zone.

the only way you can buy yourself out is if Like F/B said. disabling injury, death or discharge at completion of contract. there are other ways but those fall under the dishonorable catagory.

To avoid service you go to the national guard. but that only worked for the Viet Nam war. Right now approx 20% of troops stationed in Iraq are NG. by the end of the next rotation, those numbers will be 45% NG 55 Regular military.

Edited by stillcrazy

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I agree that if you sign up then you know what your getting for in most nations, however if its true the US military is for life, unike the UK where its a job and you can quit then I'm have to disagree. People can change their mind, I'd hate to join up because of some on the moment nationalism of fighting terrorists only to be stuck their for the rest of my life. If he wanted out, I;m afraid he was kleft with no alternative.

American soldier flees to Canada, What a Coward!

If not wanting to fight is cowardly why arn't you off fighting too? huh.gif

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If not wanting to fight is cowardly why arn't you off fighting too?  huh.gif

No offense ... but not a very intelligent quesion... you can't just go fight war.. you have to be in the Military.

I never chose to go into the Military... but if I had.. I would be first in line to defend my country.....I just didn't choose a Military career. This guy knew when he signed up that there was a possibility that there one day could be war and that he would have to fight. It's not like he didn't know what he was getting himself in to.

That's what makes him a coward... he will get jail time and a dishonorable discharge.

Edited by Nxt2Hvn

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Speaking personally, if ever there was a war anywhere near me, I'd be the first hiding under a rug in the attic. And honour can go swing.

Better to live as a sheep than die as a tiger has always been my motto.

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I never chose to go into the Military... but if I had.. I would be first in line to defend my country.....I just didn't choose a Military career. This guy knew when he signed up that there was a possibility that there one day could be war and that he would have to fight. It's not like he didn't know what he was getting himself in to.

Indeed he signed up, but now he wants to be like you and stay at home, why is he a coward because he changed his mind? huh.gif

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Speaking personally, if ever there was a war anywhere near me, I'd be the first hiding under a rug in the attic. And honour can go swing.

Better to live as a sheep than die as a tiger has always been my motto.

True, if someone invaded Scotland I'd fight, but I have no interest in signing up to go to a war zone on the other side of the world. Instead as a uni graduate I'll be the ones sending them tongue.gifgrin2.gif

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Indeed he signed up, but now he wants to be like you and stay at home, why is he a coward because he changed his mind?  huh.gif

It's a contract... You are obvious not familiar with U.S. Military Policies.

It's like this,You sign up, then... ... well to quote fluffy from an earlier post.

Once you are in, you serve until you are injured, dead, or the date on your contract...

Leaving the country when you have already given your word of honor to support and defend it is frowned upon...

He can't come back to the US without serving jail time...and a dishonorable discharge.

This is why.... If I had signed up... I would go to war... why do you keep arguing this point... it is the way it is... you can't change facts... it is the way the U.S. Military works... like it or not!

Edited by Nxt2Hvn

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Speaking personally, if ever there was a war anywhere near me, I'd be the first hiding under a rug in the attic. And honour can go swing.

Better to live as a sheep than die as a tiger has always been my motto.

Fair point Aslan ,

I wonder however how you would react to a war, which attacks your way of life, beliefs etc at your doorstep!

(im not trying to pick a fight , I know you would hide under the stairs tongue.gif )

Well user posted image

I have and will defend myself and my loved ones from any harm that might happen to venture our way.

I did try and join the military (As mush as I loathe the Monarchy) I wanted to be pilot but my lazy ass eye failed me disgust.gif.

I agreed with the war in that Mr Hussain should be and thankfully has been removed, Im am appauled that a government I voted for blantantly lied about the 15 minute thing.

Anyhoow , If I had been in th R.A.F I would have served my country to the death regardless on my personal feelings about it. The Military is about following the chain of command otherwise the military is as usless as a world armed with nukes.

The guy should go to Jail period, You serve your country or you serve your time user posted image

Edited by Scar

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It's a contract... You are obvious not familiar with U.S. Military Policies.

It's like this,You sign up, then... ... well to quote fluffy from an earlier post

This is why.... If I had signed up... I would go to war... why do you keep arguing this point... it is the way it is... you can't change facts... it is the way the U.S. Military works... like it or not!

Doesn't really answer my question. He signed up and fought a war for you, then he decided it wasn't right for him, maybe he wanted a family or something, or was sickened him, either way your system left him with no option but to flee.

Had it been McDonalds he had left I doubt you'd be calling him a coward. At least he unlike so many of you actually fought at least once.

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Doesn't really answer my question.

Working for McDonalds is not working for the U.S. Military!!

I'm not sure what else ther is for you to understand.... he signed up.. like a contraact... with the U.S. Military.

When he signed up he knew before he singed up ... that he would not get out until his contract was up... war or no war..

That is policy.. the way it is.... they way the U.S. Military works.... he should not have signed up...and since he did fight in the first Gulf War... more than likely he has had chances to get out.... and he has re-signed into the Military... so this guy knew what he was getting in to!

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Your missing the point. So he broke a contract, big deal, why does him fight in Afghanistan and then decide enough is enough and leaving (breaking a contract or not) make him any more cowardly than someone who has never fought at all?

Surely it is the people he fought for but did not fit who are the cowards?

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WHATEVER!

We are not on the same page... I'm over it!!

Believe what you want! thumbsup.gif

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Your missing the point. So he broke a contract, big deal, why does him fight in Afghanistan and then decide enough is enough and leaving (breaking a contract or not) make him any more cowardly than someone who has never fought at all?

Surely it is the people he fought for but did not fit who are the cowards?

If I am to read this right ,

A person who doesn't meet the requirements to join the Armed forces is a coward blink.gif

Okay I know thats not what you meant (I hope)

I think the Guy has a right to choose what he belives , but I'm sure some of his fellow warriors in combat might have felt the same about Irag BUT followed the chain of command, which i think is a key principle in any military or orginization

The Guy is a Coward because , There would have been a clear indication on his contract that desertion would have some kind of punishment.

The man ran away from the consquence's of his action's. In my book that Is Cowardly

Edited by Scar

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So when you sign up for the US military, how long until your contract is up?

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So when you sign up for the US military, how long until your contract is up?

It depends. If the job you choose(MOS) has a short training time(Infantry and the like) it can be as little as 2 or 3 years. If the job you choose takes a lot more training(Medic/Electronics...) it is 4 years minimum.

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Leaving the country when you have already given your word of honor to support and defend it is frowned upon...

Just because I'm a bit of a sucker for legalease , how is the contract worded ? Does ita actually say that you are to defend your country ? Do you actually sign up and agree to invade another country if necissary . I know that's badly worded and I'm sorry I don't wish to participate in a debate on the war so try not to be tempted .

I have often said that suport for the soldiers is not the same as support for the war , we have to remember not all the soldiers involved actually want to be involved .

Perhaps the so called coward is actually alot stauncher than we take him for. It can't be easy to have to go to such extremes, leaving family and country , risking imprisonment, to avoid a fight you don't want to be a part of .

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