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Sherapy

2+2=4 equates a certainty of god

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I have a converstation going on another thread about this

( lady R's jesus came for the jews.....)

.

many christians on here say I know god just as i know 2+2=4....therefore there is a god..

perhaps with the help of the many brilliant members on here you can help me understand what I am not getting about this..

I personally am not seeing how this can be a foregone conclusion that supports a knowing or personal realtionship with god..

all comments are welcomed ....

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Posted (edited)

I have a converstation going on another thread about this

( lady R's jesus came for the jews.....)

.

many christians on here say I know god just as i know 2+2=4....therefore there is a god..

perhaps with the help of the many brilliant members on here you can help me understand what I am not getting about this..

I personally am not seeing how this can be a foregone conclusion that supports a knowing or personal realtionship with god..

all comments are welcomed ....

Here's a comment. You got it all wrong because you either never bother to actually read what people write or because you think that by ridiculing someone you actually impact the validity of what they are saying. Pretty low either way, Sheri.

This is how quickly PA understood what I meant: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=128814&view=findpost&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614

Edited by IamsSon

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I have a converstation going on another thread about this

( lady R's jesus came for the jews.....)

.

many christians on here say I know god just as i know 2+2=4....therefore there is a god..

perhaps with the help of the many brilliant members on here you can help me understand what I am not getting about this..

I personally am not seeing how this can be a foregone conclusion that supports a knowing or personal realtionship with god..

all comments are welcomed ....

All Iamson is saying is he knows that god exist, like he knows that 2+2=4 or like the sky is blue.

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With absolute certanty 2+2=4

2+2=4 (i switched the twos)

4=2+2

2+x=4 X=2

4 / 2= 2

4-2=2 Always has always will no matter what order you put it in, or what loophole you think you found With absolute certainty. it is called a proof.

That is the same amount of certaintly that some believers have that God exists. It cannot be changed for them, because something happened in their spiritual walk that has taken the existance of God out of the path of questioning. Thats not to say that there are not other things left to be questioned.

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Posted (edited)

Here's a comment. You got it all wrong because you either never bother to actually read what people write or because you think that by ridiculing someone you actually impact the validity of what they are saying. Pretty low either way, Sheri.

This is how quickly PA understood what I meant: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=128814&view=findpost&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614

I simply don't understand and a good pal of mine said perhaps i need to go back to the drawing board this is not about you its about me not understanding....so if you don't mind can this be about me ....thankyou...

I saw that post by pa it didnt help bring clarity for me..for the reason i stated on that thread...also pa is christian and this is a common christian statement ....

I am gonna look at this from as many pov as I can for myself....

Edited by Supra Sheri

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I simply don't understand and a good pal of mine said perhaps i need to go back to the drawing board this is not about you its about me not understanding....so if you don't mind can this be about me ....thankyou...

I saw that post by pa it didnt help bring clarity for me..for the reason i stated on that thread...also pa is christian and this is a common christian statement ....

I am gonna look at this from as many pov as I can for myself....

.

How certain are you that you are female

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Posted (edited)

I'll restate what I said, though try in different terms.

For Christians, we don't "believe" God exists. for us, it is a fact of life (yes, we understand that not all people believe God exists, and for those that do, not all believe in the same God). But that is quite irrelevant. The point is that for a Christian God does exist. It is a solid fact.

Mathematics is also a solid fact. 2+2=4 is a known fact.

So when a Christian refers to both of these, what we mean is that to our own personal worldviews, the existence of God is as real as the facts of mathematics. It is an analogy to express to other people that what we believe (God) is not just "belief) but solid fact.

I don't think any Christian would say 2+2=4 and therefore God exists, but that is what I think you are trying to imply, is it Sheri?

Edited by Paranoid Android

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Allusions and metaphores just aren't that hard to understand.

What seems to be the problem?

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All Iamson is saying is he knows that god exist, like he knows that 2+2=4 or like the sky is blue.

Daniel how does he know that god exists??? I get the analogy , just not how he 'knows' god exists to begin with???? we aren't talking blue skys and counting tools he is using these methods to prove god correct?????finite human explanations to deal with infinite nothingness....because its also a common statemet that god is beyond human understanding. and has to be taken on faith ........so how does this work ..

@ rave thankyou for your input...

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Posted (edited)

I'll restate what I said, though try in different terms.

For Christians, we don't "believe" God exists. for us, it is a fact of life (yes, we understand that not all people believe God exists, and for those that do, not all believe in the same God). But that is quite irrelevant. The point is that for a Christian God does exist. It is a solid fact.

Mathematics is also a solid fact. 2+2=4 is a known fact.

So when a Christian refers to both of these, what we mean is that to our own personal worldviews, the existence of God is as real as the facts of mathematics. It is an analogy to express to other people that what we believe (God) is not just "belief) but solid fact.

I don't think any Christian would say 2+2=4 and therefore God exists, but that is what I think you are trying to imply, is it Sheri?

Pa I am not sure yet what i think that is why i started this thread in all honesty i am looking at this at this point I am not concluding anything yet........I appreciate your input, just as I appreciated sons

Pa, how is your beleif in god moved to a knowing of god????

if I am understanding you correctly you are saying this is a measure of beleif in god then???????? except I don't understand god can't be proven .....

Edited by Supra Sheri

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Posted (edited)

^Of course God can't be proven. No one has claimed he can be proven, not even IamsSon. He is just saying that from his worldview, God exists. TO HIM (that's the key term, Supra - "to him") - to him, God is as real as 2+2=4! It's a personal statement, not a grand gesture that "maths is right so therefore God exists". He's not referring it to you or to anyone else. Does that make sense, Supra?

Edited by Paranoid Android

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.

How certain are you that you are female

i get this Daniel but me being female, dosent automatically create a foregone conclusion there is a god... not to mention I can see

by looking I have female parts, i have many ways available to support this but thats all it supports or shows is that certain labels equate female......it doesn't warrant a leap to certainlty of purple dragons....

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Posted (edited)

^Of course God can't be proven. No one has claimed he can be proven, not even IamsSon. He is just saying that from his worldview, God exists. TO HIM (I believe that's the key term) - to him, God is as real as 2+2=4! It's a personal statement, not a grand gesture that "maths is right so therefore God exists". Does that make sense, Supra?

yes you do make sense robbie...

but IMO in using this statement it is inferring that god is a fact when in essence its a beleif based on a world view by taking a leap of faith it can't be proven ... if i am following you robbie..please correct where you see fit...

Edited by Supra Sheri

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Something’s become a personal fact rather than a belief because like the scientific principle it is a repeatable daily encounter ibid it remains a personal experience because it is a relationship and not a physical object. As science could not begin to prove love, love can not aid science in any way.

Many demand proof and receive proof daily yet fail to recognize it. They seek truth in physical substance yet truth is in spirit not matter.

If I claimed to be your brother that you grew up with you probably would not believe me because you would not recognize me. I would recognize Jesus because I have known Him many years and interacted with him.

If he was to return in a physical body I would recognize Him because I already know Him in spirit.

Even though many of you would not recognize me in person many have come to know me by the way I write. And after a brief conversation with me you would conclude that I am the same Irish on UM’s forums.

It may well appear as blind faith to the non believer but after the initial step of as you say blind faith evidence is given to the individual. The truth is revealed only after an earnest commitment, much to the chagrin of those that do not believe. Is that you must first come to Christ by faith alone and then the truth is revealed to the individual with no doubts. His persona would be revealed only within our hearts and minds, but again we would have to try to convince others to get to know Him the way we do.

Irish

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yes you do make sense robbie...

but IMO in using this statement it is inferring that god is a fact when in essence its a beleif based on a world view by taking a leap of faith it can't be proven ... if i am following you robbie..please correct where you see fit...

I agree with Paranoid Android. For me God too is a fact, in fact God is the sole Fact that gives cause or rise to all other facts. While me and Paranoid android dont see eye to eye on most things about God we are both in agreement that God exists definately.

Just because something cannot be proven through equation or via a separate piece of finite proof against the backdrop of the universe, doesnt mean that something has no validity or existence.

Just as consciousness cannot be proven or measured so likewise is God. And for me consciousness and God are one and the same.

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I'll restate what I said, though try in different terms.

For Christians, we don't "believe" God exists. for us, it is a fact of life (yes, we understand that not all people believe God exists, and for those that do, not all believe in the same God). But that is quite irrelevant. The point is that for a Christian God does exist. It is a solid fact.

Mathematics is also a solid fact. 2+2=4 is a known fact.

So when a Christian refers to both of these, what we mean is that to our own personal worldviews, the existence of God is as real as the facts of mathematics. It is an analogy to express to other people that what we believe (God) is not just "belief) but solid fact.

I don't think any Christian would say 2+2=4 and therefore God exists, but that is what I think you are trying to imply, is it Sheri?

I never have been able to understand this sliding scale that some believers use, to me it is utter hypocrisy to demand a higher degree of certainty for some beliefs than others.

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yes you do make sense robbie...

but IMO in using this statement it is inferring that god is a fact when in essence its a beleif based on a world view by taking a leap of faith it can't be proven ... if i am following you robbie..please correct where you see fit...

You're right with me up to a point - I'm sure IamsSon will correct me if I'm wrong, but he is making this as a personal statement about his own belief in God. To him, it is a fact. Just as God's existence to me is a fact. It is not an all-inclusive statement saying "therefore it is a fact". If you have done textual analysis, you shoul know this. It's a personal analogy, used to describe a personal experience. If I truly believed there was a pink elephant sitting in my sock-drawer, I could say "to me, that pink elephant is as real as 2+2=4". It's a personal statement referring to a personal journey.

You've taken it much too literally, and thought of it as a blanket statement to all that 2+2=God! And that's just an illogical step to take, in my opinion.

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I never have been able to understand this sliding scale that some believers use, to me it is utter hypocrisy to demand a higher degree of certainty for some beliefs than others.

What sliding scale are you talking about?

Because I believe in God. I don't believe that God is a "him" which both come out of the bible, but that isn't sliding scale, it is conceding that people wrote the bible and that maybe just maybe there are enough questions left to be answered so that we are not a bunch of mindless zombies believing all one thing just because it said so. A spiritual journey is as personal as anything else is, so why should believers all have to believe the exact same thing?

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I never have been able to understand this sliding scale that some believers use, to me it is utter hypocrisy to demand a higher degree of certainty for some beliefs than others.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. What is this "sliding scale" of which you speak? Could you elaborate. Thanks,

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This thread is kooky... but that aside.

I believe that all people have varying abilities to "hear" God.

People like Sheri have no ability.

People like myself have some ability

People like Irish might be a good example of someone who has huge ability.

So, anyone who has even the smallest amount of ability believe God to be fact. Those who have no ability at all like Sheri and others, are confused and probably have every right to be confused. And will remain confused.

It's just the way it is from my point of view.

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Posted (edited)

You're right with me up to a point - I'm sure IamsSon will correct me if I'm wrong, but he is making this as a personal statement about his own belief in God. To him, it is a fact. Just as God's existence to me is a fact. It is not an all-inclusive statement saying "therefore it is a fact". If you have done textual analysis, you shoul know this. It's a personal analogy, used to describe a personal experience. If I truly believed there was a pink elephant sitting in my sock-drawer, I could say "to me, that pink elephant is as real as 2+2=4". It's a personal statement referring to a personal journey.

You've taken it much too literally, and thought of it as a blanket statement to all that 2+2=God! And that's just an illogical step to take, in my opinion.

Robbie, In all fairness i did take this as personal opinion and my posts reflects this .....this is the post that started us down this path.....

son quotes:

Sheri,

I am not seeking to convert anyone. I am doing the same thing everyone else is doing here, sharing what I know and what I think. If in sharing my knowledge, God uses that to reach someone, well that's just great, but it will be God doing it, not me.

But like I have said, if I know 2+2=4, I am not going to spend my time considering the possibility that 2+2=3.

It does seem that to son is inferring that god is a fact so much so that god uses him as a vessel for his knowledge which is 'factual' just like 2+2=4 ...this can allude ot insinuating that god is provable.. so I am dialoging with him to establish clarity, bascailly....

QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Jul 6 2008, 03:02 PM) linked-imagewonderful son .... for me .I see that 2 plus 2 is how we have defined it based on need and for one (me) that questions this is amazing, cuz it colors my adventure i call life with wonder and delight and so many questions that lead to more questions and the possiblity i call life...........and the sheer joy of engaging in the possibilitys i would feel as if i am going against my naturalness of change if I closed the door on considering the possibilitys........but for some this works for them,,just not me.....

Son Quotes:

Sure, it's wonderful to consider possibilities, it's why I love science fiction. But some possibilities, like 2+2=anything other than 4 although interesting, just don't stand up to what we experience. I can consider 2+2=5 for years and it won't change the fact that 2+2=4, so why spend the time with that possibility when there are others much more interesting. It's the same, for me, with God. Yes, I can consider the possibility that there is no god, because I have an imagination. But really,

son quotes further :" since I know there is God, it's just an exercise in imagination to consider otherwise. Since "I know" how He established the personal link with me, I can consider other possibilities, but they are again just exercises in wild imagination..."

now maybe it is me but how does he know that god is a fact and how he established this personal link with son.. ....thas my question....

I have been asking and asking perhaps you can answer this.....

( I have no interest in being right actually to be mistaken is a win win for me because I am interested in learning and growing in my understandings....).

Edited by Supra Sheri

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Posted (edited)

This thread is kooky... but that aside.

I believe that all people have varying abilities to "hear" God.

People like Sheri have no ability.

People like myself have some ability

People like Irish might be a good example of someone who has huge ability.

So, anyone who has even the smallest amount of ability believe God to be fact. Those who have no ability at all like Sheri and others, are confused and probably have every right to be confused. And will remain confused.

It's just the way it is from my point of view.

thanks for your input....

@ irish thanks for yours also...always a delight to read....

Edited by Supra Sheri

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. What is this "sliding scale" of which you speak? Could you elaborate. Thanks,

It's not so much a question as an observation, and like I said it only relates to some believers.

When evidence is brought up that conflicts with their beliefs they require you to have a certainty of 100% before they will accept it as fact.

However the same individual will consider anecdotal evidence as "fact" when used to support their beliefs, even when that evidence can not be verified.

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THE14U2CEE<<<<<<<<<<< not a scientist but understands the point of 2x2=4 even though i don't believe in the God you know exists, i believe that there is a higher power in my own opinion.

May i use that analogy in my own words: The love for my Daughter's 2x2=4, you can't see my love but it is definitely there. :wub:

Kind of like the wind.

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It's not so much a question as an observation, and like I said it only relates to some believers.

When evidence is brought up that conflicts with their beliefs they require you to have a certainty of 100% before they will accept it as fact.

However the same individual will consider anecdotal evidence as "fact" when used to support their beliefs, even when that evidence can not be verified.

indeed Shaft...I am a stickler for soundness....

nothing is above reproach or rigorous critical analysis in my posit......all my 'beleifs' undergo a scrutinty for soundness and pragmatism......quality and value.....I need to know why i hold the beleifs i hold what are my reasons and are they adequate and applicable for everyday use..... if I am gonna recommend that someone should live as I do I would want to present a well thought out posit ....

I don't give a free pass to any of my beleifs nor would i ask another to take anyhting I said on face value or faulty premises.........

.

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