How much money will Obama save you?

[SQLserver]

How much money will Obama's tax plan directly save you?

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

Now, take a look at this:

As we can see, McCain is QUITE the elitist! More taxes for the poor, more breaks for the rich is his big plan. In fact, he saves 300,000$ under his plan!

Here's a quick summary...

McCain's Plan:

Drill more oil + prolong the energy crisis + Destroy the environment + send more jobs overseas + spend a few billion dollars more in war + make the rich richer and the poor/middle class poorer

Obama's Plan:

Invest in alternative energy + Create more jobs for Americans + end the wars + tax breaks for the majority of americans + slowly repay the national debt + more money on American society.

Which do you think will work?

Cheers,

SQLserver

[BlindMessiah]

This topic isn't loaded or anything. McCain's plan: Drill more oil + prolong the energy crisis + Destroy the environment + send more jobs overseas + spend a few billion dollars more in war + make the rich richer and the poor/middle class poorer? At least try to act like you're being fair and realistic.

[SQLserver]

At least try to act like you're being fair and realistic.

Why? I don't have a "fair and balanced" disclaimer anywhere.

If you would like to explain exactly HOW we would manage to pay for an extended Iraqi war, or an Iran war without going a few more billion dollars in debt, go right ahead. Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly why making possibly our grandest national park a corporate free-for-all would suite you better?

[BlindMessiah]

McCain's Plan:

Drill more oil + prolong the energy crisis + Destroy the environment

Obama's Plan:

Invest in alternative energy

The truth:

McCain: Invest in alternative energy while drilling

Obama: Invest in some alternative energies

That is the truth. What you did is completely distort.

[MasterPo]

The truth:

McCain: Invest in alternative energy while drilling

Obama: Invest in some alternative energies

That is the truth. What you did is completely distort.

Agreed.

[SQLserver]

McCain: Invest in alternative energy while drilling

Obama: Invest in some alternative energies

That is the truth. What you did is completely distort.

Sorry, perhaps you are correct, but quite frankly, it is irrelevant.

In reality, that plan will become no different then my "distortion".

It is simple, really:

If we drill, then oil will become cheaper.

If oil is cheaper, then companies will continue to use it until it runs out in a few years, where we are at the exact same place again.

Wait, actually, no.

We'd be in the exact same place we are now PLUS more oil spills in our oceans/environment, industrialization near wild refuges, and CO2 in the atmosphere.

Contrary to what many may believe, right now we have 100% of what we need to make a completely carbon free America.

What we don't have is the money, and the corporations seriously behind it.

Only strict regulation, government sponsorship, and tax on gas will get us anywhere.

Either that, or somebody actually stepping up to the plate to DO THE RIGHT THING instead of doing it for money.

Fat chance with our fantastic capitalistic system.

-SQLserver

[BlindMessiah]

I believe we should convert to nuclear energy. Spend drilling money on research to deal with the waste.

[Aztec Warrior]

This is a joke. Who is the one raising taxes? Obama, not McCain. Obama has not offered any specifics in which he lowers taxes to anyone. If you go to the partisian link and put in the following numbers you will get a bogus outcome.

Family of four, one income earner (irrelevant), 4 dependents and household income of 25,000K. It states you will save about $1,500 in taxes under Obama and about the same under McCain.

If that is you....you already don't pay any taxes....so how can you save $1,500.

BOGUS PROPAGANDA.

[MasterPo]

Family of four, one income earner (irrelevant), 4 dependents and household income of 25,000K. It states you will save about $1,500 in taxes under Obama and about the same under McCain.

Glad you brought that up.

If this is an example of "middle class" then consider this:

In 20 years at a mere 4% annual inflation that same family of 4 with an income of $25k will need to have an income of approx $55,000 to be at the same adjusted level.

To put it another way: At 4% inflation someone 2o years from now making $25,000 will be the same as a person making approx $11,400 today.

Will $25,000 still be considered "middle class" then?

[SQLserver]

This is a joke. Who is the one raising taxes? Obama, not McCain.

Even though the numbers are staring you right in the face...

Family of four, one income earner (irrelevant), 4 dependents and household income of 25,000K. It states you will save about $1,500 in taxes under Obama and about the same under McCain.

The application *may* be broken. The image from above(also available at the link below) is just as important.

BOGUS PROPAGANDA.

Perhaps if you've CLICKED THE LINK on how they calculate your savings, you'd get to this Washington post link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8060900950.html

So, tell me, does the Washington Post just spread "Bogus Propaganda"? How about you send a letter to the editor about that?

Perhaps it is time you got over your little fantasy that Obama's going to raise taxes and start facing reality.

Cheers,

SQLserver

[IrishAidan07]

Ya know, it's really annoying how shortsighted people are. For one, I think most anyone with a brain would be happy to pay the same taxes we had under Clinton if we had the Clinton economy. And I don't want to hear any of that "Technology Boom, Newt Gingrich" Republican BS; it's easily debunk-able. The bottom line is that Republicans give massive tax cuts to the rich and allow big corporations to ship jobs overseas. What the hell do you think? That because McCain plans on cutting the rich's taxes they will decide to keep jobs here? NO! They'll ship job overseas where they don't have to pay $14 an hour and make double the money.

Wake up. Republicans are no good for anyone but the wealthy.

Obama plans on cutting taxes for corporations who decide to keep jobs here. He isn't going to reward them for shipping jobs overseas like McCain. Obama will also make sure to invest in alternative energy, and those jobs cannot be shipped overseas. McCain wants to drill and invest a little -- period. And drilling isn't going to do a damn thing. Go read and learn about how long it takes for newly drilled oil to be ready for cars. It will do NOTHING but hurt the environment.

Republicans have screwed this country enough. It's time the rich, who've had it easy for 8 years, bend over.

Edited August 30, 2008 by IrishAidan

[AROCES]

The truth:

McCain: Invest in alternative energy while drilling

Obama: Invest in some alternative energies

That is the truth. What you did is completely distort.

Well, it is a very nice presentation of distortion, with colored graphics!

Edited August 30, 2008 by AROCES

[IrishAidan07]

Well, it is a very nice presentation of distortion, with colored graphics!

AROCES, you are just too naive to argue with. I mean, I actually think I like you.

[AROCES]

Ya know, it's really annoying how shortsighted people are. For one, I think most anyone with a brain would be happy to pay the same taxes we had under Clinton if we had the Clinton economy. And I don't want to hear any of that "Technology Boom, Newt Gingrich" Republican BS; it's easily debunk-able. The bottom line is that Republicans give massive tax cuts to the rich and allow big corporations to ship jobs overseas. What the hell do you think? That because McCain plans on cutting the rich's taxes they will decide to keep jobs here? NO! They'll ship job overseas where they don't have to pay $14 an hour and make double the money.

I guess Toyota, Honda and Hyundai should move their plants back to their own counttries as well, right?

Wake up. Republicans are no good for anyone but the wealthy.

Obama plans on cutting taxes for corporations who decide to keep jobs here. He isn't going to reward them for shipping jobs overseas like McCain. Obama will also make sure to invest in alternative energy, and those jobs cannot be shipped overseas. McCain wants to drill and invest a little -- period. And drilling isn't going to do a damn thing. Go read and learn about how long it takes for newly drilled oil to be ready for cars. It will do NOTHING but hurt the environment.

Well, we didn't worry about how long it will take to drill Oil before, right?

Republicans have screwed this country enough. It's time the rich, who've had it easy for 8 years, bend over.

You sound like Hugo really.

[AROCES]

AROCES, you are just too naive to argue with. I mean, I actually think I like you.

Of course you have to say I am naive, for I make you look like you have no clue what you are talking about.

[Lt_Ripley]

The truth:

McCain: Invest in alternative energy while drilling

Obama: Invest in some alternative energies

That is the truth. What you did is completely distort.

that's exactly what Bush has been saying for the last 8 years. How high are gas prices ? How far along are we with alternative energy ? not very far.

drilling is just 1. delaying the inevitable and it won't bring gas prices down. 1. Keeps us from really moving forward in making Green collar jobs and businesses .

and on where Obama actually sits on Energy ?

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy

compared to McCain ?

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues...ef1468e96f4.htm

Edited August 30, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[AROCES]

that's exactly what Bush has been saying for the last 8 years. How high are gas prices ? How far along are we with alternative energy ? not very far.

drilling is just 1. delaying the inevitable and it won't bring gas prices down. 1. Keeps us from really moving forward in making Green collar jobs and businesses .

and on where Obama actually sits on Energy ?

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy

compared to McCain ?

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues...ef1468e96f4.htm

What could have Bush done really to prevent India and China from economic expansion that made it increase it's oil consumption?

Price has to go up for that is the only way THE WORLD will act on using less Oil. The is the sad truth that everyone must admit.

Edited August 30, 2008 by AROCES

[InHuman]

Price has to go up for that is the only way THE WORLD will act on using less Oil. The is the sad truth that everyone must admit.

Very true. People weren't willing to give up oil until they REALLY had to (when their wallet hurt)...

[Incorrigible1]

Very true. People weren't willing to give up oil until they REALLY had to (when their wallet hurt)...

So if I understand several of you guys correctly, it's fine if the price of gas raises twice or more what it is currently? Afterall, that will compel spurred alternative fuel usage, eh?

(Sorry to quote Inhuman, others have voiced this train-of-thought.)

Edited August 30, 2008 by Incorrigible1

[IrishAidan07]

Of course you have to say I am naive, for I make you look like you have no clue what you are talking about.

Yeah, because, ya know, after I've attended nationally (and worldy) renowned institutions, I have to worry about whether or not you think I know what I'm talking about. Good point.

Sorry for the arrogance, but I'm pretty sure it's justified in this situation.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what you think. Go back and look at my post and then yours -- you'll see, if you look closely enough, the fundamental problem with your argument. I'll be waiting....

Edited August 30, 2008 by IrishAidan

[AROCES]

So if I understand several of you guys correctly, it's fine if the price of gas raises twice or more what it is currently? Afterall, that will compel spurred alternative fuel usage, eh?

(Sorry to quote Inhuman, others have voiced this train-of-thought.)

No one is saying it is fine, the fact of the matter is the most effective way to decrease consumption is for the price to go up.

And indeed the only time alternative fuel will take over is when Oil price becomes too expensive. And that time maybe nearing because the price of Oil now is very unstable and easily reacts to world situation, consumers I think will get tired of worying about Oil price and would seek stability in energy source.

[Mr Honeybadger]

After looking at the chart, Obama sure does plan on sticking it to wealthy people. No wonder businesses are moving overseas, they're getting taxed to death.

[MasterPo]

After looking at the chart, Obama sure does plan on sticking it to wealthy people. No wonder businesses are moving overseas, they're getting taxed to death.

Of course.

Why would any sane person take the BIG risk of raising the funds to start a business, workin 90+ hour weeks for years at a time, deal with all the laws and rules and regulations that come with all businesses (you would not believe the rules government at all levels places on every kind of business!) and then be taxed to the hilt if they are profitable?

I wouldn't.

[Aztec Warrior]

Glad you brought that up.

If this is an example of "middle class" then consider this:

In 20 years at a mere 4% annual inflation that same family of 4 with an income of $25k will need to have an income of approx $55,000 to be at the same adjusted level.

To put it another way: At 4% inflation someone 2o years from now making $25,000 will be the same as a person making approx $11,400 today.

Will $25,000 still be considered "middle class" then?

Making $25,000 in your book is middle class, then that explains why a family of four making $50,00-$75,000 are considered rich by you liberals. I don't know which state you live in, but in the San Francisco Bay Area you can't even make rent payments with that income. Obama will tax you further because you are RiCH.

Even though the numbers are staring you right in the face...

The application *may* be broken. The image from above(also available at the link below) is just as important.

Perhaps if you've CLICKED THE LINK on how they calculate your savings, you'd get to this Washington post link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8060900950.html

So, tell me, does the Washington Post just spread "Bogus Propaganda"? How about you send a letter to the editor about that?

Perhaps it is time you got over your little fantasy that Obama's going to raise taxes and start facing reality.

Cheers,

SQLserver

I reviewed your chart and your link and two things are quite clear...Obama is the candidate raising taxes. Where and how does he lower ANYONE'S taxes?

You did get one thing straight about Obama tax plan, it "*may* be broken". Not only will he raise personal income taxes, but also capital gains and business taxes across the board. Not since George MacGovern, have so many tax increases be considered. You need to look a lot closer at the specifics of his proposal, which granted are hard to dig up. I will, however if time permits endeavor to find them for you.

Ya know, it's really annoying how shortsighted people are. For one, I think most anyone with a brain would be happy to pay the same taxes we had under Clinton if we had the Clinton economy. And I don't want to hear any of that "Technology Boom, Newt Gingrich" Republican BS; it's easily debunk-able. The bottom line is that Republicans give massive tax cuts to the rich and allow big corporations to ship jobs overseas. What the hell do you think? That because McCain plans on cutting the rich's taxes they will decide to keep jobs here? NO! They'll ship job overseas where they don't have to pay $14 an hour and make double the money.

Wake up. Republicans are no good for anyone but the wealthy.

Obama plans on cutting taxes for corporations who decide to keep jobs here. He isn't going to reward them for shipping jobs overseas like McCain. Obama will also make sure to invest in alternative energy, and those jobs cannot be shipped overseas. McCain wants to drill and invest a little -- period. And drilling isn't going to do a damn thing. Go read and learn about how long it takes for newly drilled oil to be ready for cars. It will do NOTHING but hurt the environment.

Republicans have screwed this country enough. It's time the rich, who've had it easy for 8 years, bend over.

Show me where EXACTLY and which corporations he will cut taxes for. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AND NOT SPECIFICALLY STATED ANYWHERE.

In addition, you clearly know nothing about the cycle of oil well drilling. Just the mention of increased drilling and the lifting of the executive ban on off-shore drilling brought down the spot price of crude nearly 30%. I realize your not old enough to understand economics, since the brightest thing you have stated is 'McCain Sucks."

Edited August 30, 2008 by Aztec Warrior

[MasterPo]

Making $25,000 in your book is middle class, then that explains why a family of four making $50,00-$75,000 are considered rich by you liberals. I don't know which state you live in, but in the San Francisco Bay Area you can't even make rent payments with that income. Obama will tax you further because you are RiCH.

You completely misread what I said.

*I* don't consider that middle class at all. Hell - I'm from NY! $25k a year gets you a receipt!

But that's what the pols always use as an example of middle class. Bill Clinton's crowning achievement of his administration was the Earned Income Tax Credit for what he called the middle class. The credit only goes up to around $25k then phases out quickly and is gone by the mid-30k's. So apparently he considered $25k/yr middle class too.

I know many couples who together make around $150k/yr and barely get by. Taxes! You'll have to take my word on it that they aren't living champaign holidays and caviar dreams.