American Atlantis

[darkbreed]

I agree to Dan Dare and the functioning of pyramids most probable being for ritual use / ceremonies. Makes sense that being buried in them would make their "grave" more holy and connected with the spiritual side after considering this.

Harte: I was just pointing out that it seems the mentioned civilization started to emerge there at that time, like in Egypt around similar times. And in both cases there is a "gap" of some thousands years with little evidence utnil you again come up with timelines matching eachother and construction work matching up with eachother and god worship seemingly matching and etc. Also I was pointing out to Pax that there has been civilizations building monuments co-existing at same timelines in both ancient latin americas and egypt, in contradiction to what he claimed.

Not claiming that it is necessarily a fact that this has anything to do with eachother, just pointing it out as something I find curious and a possible connection considering all the other mentioned material as well.

As said, I think it needs to be studied more in depth and professional research needs to be done in both areas with having in mind the possibility of a connection and then see if they can find evidence that either strengthens or weakens such a theory. For the moment being, from the material discovered and factual in both continents, to me personally and many others there seems to be signs strongly indicating a connection between africans and latin americans in ancient times - as well as other cultures and continents such as the asians and even caucasians.

-EA

[darkbreed]

Another point I tried get out was that there exists pre-olmec large ceremonial stone structures which Pax seemed unaware of. Up to around 1000 years older than the olmecs.

2627 BC–2000 BC — Peru: Construction of the Caral metropolis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27th_century_BC

Caral spawns 19 other pyramid complexes scattered across the 35 square mile (80 km²) area of the Supe Valley. The find of the quipu indicates that the later Inca civilization preserved some cultural continuity from the Caral civilization. The date of 2627 BCE is based on carbon dating reed and woven carrying bags that were found in situ. These bags were used to carry the stones that were used for the construction of the pyramids. The material is an excellent candidate for dating, thus allowing for a high precision. The site may date even earlier as samples from the oldest parts of the excavation have yet to be to be dated.[2] The town had a population of approximately 3000 people. But there are 19 other sites in the area (posted at Caral), allowing for a possible total population of 20,000 people for the Supe valley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral

Ideological power would have rested on access to deities and the supernatural.[9] Evidence regarding Norte Chico religion is limited, but fascinating: an image of the Staff God, a leering, cartoon-like figure, with a hood and fangs, has been found on a gourd dated to 2250 BC. The Staff God is a major deity of later Andean cultures, and Winifred Creamer suggests the find points to worship of common symbols of gods.[21][22] Like much other research at Norte Chico, the nature and significance of the find has been disputed by other researchers.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_civilization

Model reconstruction of area:

As seen here too similarities between egyptian structures, specifically I notice the "Mastaba" style that Pax mentioned earlier which seems to be pretty close when it comes to timelines to those of egypt as well. Were they used for the same purpose? I don't know.

A rather recent new finding related to the above:

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jun/19-un...ancient-america

This 5,500-year-old monument, recently uncovered about 206 miles northwest of Lima, Peru, is part of what could be the oldest settlement in the Americas. The circular space, built of stones and adobe, was probably a social and religious gathering area, says German archaeologist Peter Fuchs, who led the dig’s excavation team. This find and others nearby (including the ancient city of Caral and a 3,600-year-old adobe carving of a human sacrifice) are rewriting history by showing that the Americas had booming civilizations at the same time that Mesopotamia was thriving half a world away.

More information at International Herald Tribune: http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/0...-ARCHEOLOGY.php

[Harte]

As seen here too similarities between egyptian structures, specifically I notice the "Mastaba" style that Pax mentioned earlier which seems to be pretty close when it comes to timelines to those of egypt as well. Were they used for the same purpose? I don't know.

Darkbreed, The "more research" you call for has been done by others, you are maybe just not aware of it.

That is not to say that more research is not needed - I mean, more research is always needed IMO.

Anyway, the reason I say that you're maybe not aware of it is that no, they weren't "used for the same purpose."

Mesoamerican and South American "pyramids" functioned as platforms for display, largely of religious ceremonies such as cutting the hearts out of living victims.

No such "platform area" exists for Egyptian pyramids, and the presence of remains in mastabas indicates they were tombs, not stages.

Harte

[darkbreed]

That may apply for newer cultures, but not necessarily for these older ones as mentioned here. And there are still more to be found, as there is work in progress on findings in the area, that may also show that what you say is not true - because it applied to some ancient cultures there do not mean it applied to all - we are talking about cultures with thousands of years between that most likely have had other religious beliefs and cultures than the latter.

No trace of warfare has been found at Caral; no battlements, no weapons, no mutilated bodies. Shady's findings suggest it was a gentle society, built on commerce and pleasure. In one of the pyramids, they uncovered 32 flutes made of condor and pelican bones and 37 cornets of deer and llama bones. They also found evidence of drug use and possibly aphrodisiacs. One find revealed the remains of a baby, wrapped and buried with a necklace made of stone beads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral

The above is an example on that.

-EA

Darkbreed, The "more research" you call for has been done by others, you are maybe just not aware of it.

That is not to say that more research is not needed - I mean, more research is always needed IMO.

Anyway, the reason I say that you're maybe not aware of it is that no, they weren't "used for the same purpose."

Mesoamerican and South American "pyramids" functioned as platforms for display, largely of religious ceremonies such as cutting the hearts out of living victims.

No such "platform area" exists for Egyptian pyramids, and the presence of remains in mastabas indicates they were tombs, not stages.

Harte

[Harte]

That may apply for newer cultures, but not necessarily for these older ones as mentioned here. And there are still more to be found, as there is work in progress on findings in the area, that may also show that what you say is not true - because it applied to some ancient cultures there do not mean it applied to all - we are talking about cultures with thousands of years between that most likely have had other religious beliefs and cultures than the latter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral

The above is an example on that.

-EA

Darkbreed,

I'm sure we both agree that the best thing about Wiki is the link list at the bottom of most articles there.

Here's some info from one of the links at the bottom of the Wiki page you referenced:

Caral was first discovered by archaeologists about 1905, and has been explored only intermittently. The site's central area covers more than 150 acres and is dominated by the platform mounds, the largest of which is 450 by 500 feet at the base, and two sunken circular plazas, one of them 150 feet in diameter. There are also remains of several types of residential structures.

Source (Apparently from a NY Times article.)

The largest "platform mound" mentioned is the "largest pyramid" that your Wiki quote mentions.

As you can see, the use of the word "pyramid" for these platforms is rather a loose usage of the term. These are platforms, as I said, that were used for display. They were constructed by erecting cut stones over piles of debris.

Any artifacts found within these debris piles are valuable yes, but not indicative of the use of the structure. IOW, finding remains in one does not indicate it was a tomb per se, only that a body was interred in with the debris that the mound is (primarily) made of.

These are not pyramids in the Egyptian sense. There are no inner chambers, for just one example.

The same is true of virtually every other platform mound anywhere in the Americas, including earthen mounds in North America - which are far, far more closely related to Mesoamerican and South American mounds than either are related to Egyptian pyramids.

Harte

[darkbreed]

And the below is an example on pyramids used as tombs in Peru like Egypt pyramids also were used as tombs:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...peru-tombs.html

A complex of tombs recently discovered under a pyramid in Peru offers landmark clues to a thousand-year-old pre-Incan culture, archaeologists report.

A team co-led by Izumi Shimada, an archaeologist with Southern Illinois University, found 22 artifact-laden tombs about 420 miles (675 kilometers) northwest of Lima, the capital.

Among the findings are meticulously arranged human remains; gold, gilt copper, and bronze artifacts; and the first decorated tumi, or ceremonial knives, ever discovered by archaeologists at a burial site.

The graves belong to elite members of the Middle Sican culture, a gold-working people whose farming culture thrived in Peru's desert coastal region from around A.D. 900 to 1100.

Shimada and colleague Carlos Elera Arevalo, director of Peru's Sican National Museum, say the discovery is yielding crucial clues to this ancient civilization.

-EA

[Pax Unum]

Another point I tried get out was that there exists pre-olmec large ceremonial stone structures which Pax seemed unaware of. Up to around 1000 years older than the olmecs.

I’m aware of Caral, I always thought it was a mud brick structure more akin to the mud brick ziggurat’s of the middle east that pre-date Caral by more than a thousand years... IMO

LINK->Ziggurat

LINK->Mesopotamia

Thanks for the link though, it’s interesting...

BTW, how do you explain the lack of bronze and iron metallurgy in the America’s? Just wondering

Edited September 3, 2008 by Pax Unum

[Harte]

And the below is an example on pyramids used as tombs in Peru like Egypt pyramids also were used as tombs:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...peru-tombs.html

-EA

Actually, no it's not.

Here's a pic of a model of the tombs of the elite found at Huaca Loro, the site referenced by your quote:

Webshots pic 1

Here's a diagram of the site showing the location of the tombs:

Webshots pic 2

As you can see, the tombs were not found "under" the pyramid, they were not even part of the pyramid proper.

The confusion, I admit, is the fault of the National Geographic article, and not due to your attempting to equate this with the Egyptian norm.

Anyway, this is completely unlike the chambers found within every Egyptian pyramid.

Harte

[darkbreed]

Harte:

Well yes from those diagrams that unfortunately National Geographic did not provide in their article (i had thought they would be a bit more precise) I agree its not exactly "under the pyramid", though it seem like it is somewhat under there in the front part..

Though, from those diagrams it sounds a bit similar to tombs found "under" some of the egyptian pyramids as well such as:

Egypt's antiquities chief on Thursday revealed a 2,500-year-old hidden tomb under the shadow of one of Giza's three giant pyramids, containing 400 pinkie-finger-sized statues and six coffin-sized niches carved into granite rock.

Zahi Hawass, the director of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, said archaeologists had been working for three months to clear sand from a granite shaft found between the pyramid of Khafre -- also known by its Greek name of Chephren -- Giza's second-largest tomb of a pharaoh, and the Sphinx.

Under blaring sun Thursday, Hawass said Giza's latest ancient discovery came to light after archaeologists detected what appeared to be a four-sided shaft.

http://www.livescience.com/history/hidden_tomb_040903.html

No diagrams there either so I have no idea where exactly these tombs are, maybe you got some diagrams of these as well?

Anyway thanks for the info, it was a cool looking pyramid.

Pax Unum:

From the material I read so far on Caral it was stones and rocks they used to build it with, and it is now very eroded and fallen apart which can be due to many reasons. This of course makes it look less attractive than what is used to look like, and apparently it's possibly very old as well - 5000 years perhaps more, and older than the egyptian Giza pyramids, and the civilization there started more than 11 000 years ago at least as mentioned in my earlier post on this place.

I don't think those mud ziggorat things you mention look much like the Caral structures at all. And in any case I find the artifacts found in the area and other pre-Olmec as well as Olmec artifacts highly interesting and strongly suggesting a connection with africa, asia and other continents. That goes for other latin american artifacts and monuments as well as I've mentioned in previous posts and shown examples of. Specially considering they are consistent with how the people they seem to represent actually did look like at the times they are from at those various continents.

When it comes to the metallurgy that's something I'm still looking into. I've seen evidence suggesting metallurgy back to 1000 BC or more but I don't have any references to check up with right now nor is it something I've been looking much into at all. So your guess is as good as mine. Maybe someone else got something about evidence for possible metallurgy knowledge before what is commonly believed?

[Harte]

Harte:

Well yes from those diagrams that unfortunately National Geographic did not provide in their article (i had thought they would be a bit more precise) I agree its not exactly "under the pyramid", though it seem like it is somewhat under there in the front part..

Though, from those diagrams it sounds a bit similar to tombs found "under" some of the egyptian pyramids as well such as:

http://www.livescience.com/history/hidden_tomb_040903.html

No diagrams there either so I have no idea where exactly these tombs are, maybe you got some diagrams of these as well?

Anyway thanks for the info, it was a cool looking pyramid.

You're welcome, though like Pax I'd say it looks more ziggurat-ish.

Re the tombs at Giza, yes there are tombs in the "shadow of the pyramids" but let's remember here that the discussion was not about tombs nearby the megalithic structures; the discussion was about whether these structures were actually tombs themselves.

After all, going with your claim of tombs "under" the Peruvian "pyramid," the tomb you just mentioned could be used as "proof" that the Great Pyramid was constructed as a tomb, which is the opposite of what many here claim (though it is the same as what I, and apparently you, claim.)

Your National Geographic article (BTW, I agree that the article was certainly lacking, especially given the reputation of Nat. Geo.) actually states, I believe, that there have been several instances of tombs found next to Mesoamerican "pyramids." The Egyptian tomb you bring up might therefore be better used as evidence that both cultures built "pyramids" in order to have something cast a shadow on their leader's gravesites, eh? You know, keep the mourners from sunburn or some such!

Pax Unum:

From the material I read so far on Caral it was stones and rocks they used to build it with, and it is now very eroded and fallen apart which can be due to many reasons. This of course makes it look less attractive than what is used to look like, and apparently it's possibly very old as well - 5000 years perhaps more, and older than the egyptian Giza pyramids, and the civilization there started more than 11 000 years ago at least as mentioned in my earlier post on this place.

I find I cannot prevent myself from once again commenting here that there was no "civilization" in Egypt 11,000 years ago. Please refrain from using the term "civilization" in an anthropological context unless you are using the anthropological meaning of the word.

The word to use here is the Egyptian "culture."

When it comes to the metallurgy that's something I'm still looking into. I've seen evidence suggesting metallurgy back to 1000 BC or more but I don't have any references to check up with right now nor is it something I've been looking much into at all. So your guess is as good as mine. Maybe someone else got something about evidence for possible metallurgy knowledge before what is commonly believed?

I have read something by some pseudoarchaeologist about the metallic clamps used at a site in South America (Tihuanaco, aka Tiwanaku) consisting of an alloy that cannot be made at the temperature generally accepted as the maximum temperature the natives in the area were capable of generating.

Got anything on this? I mean, it's a small thing. But if it's true then it is, at least, an Unsolved Mystery!

Harte

Edited September 3, 2008 by Harte

[Pax Unum]

the function of American ‘pyramids’, and to some extent it's form, is more like a ziggurat (step structure with stairs leading to a ceremonial site) IMO... maybe Mesopotamia was the outside influence for the America's...

BTW, I can’t recall EVER seeing a Egyptian pyramid, or the older mastaba's, with steps leading up to a ceremonial platform... if anyone has an example, please post a link... TIA

[Leonardo]

the function of American ‘pyramids’, and to some extent it's form, is more like a ziggurat (step structure with stairs leading to a ceremonial site) IMO... maybe Mesopotamia was the outside influence for the America's...

BTW, I can’t recall EVER seeing a Egyptian pyramid, or the older mastaba's, with steps leading up to a ceremonial platform... if anyone has an example, please post a link... TIA

From what I understand, the function of the Mesoamerican and South American step pyramids was ritualistic in being a substitute for a mountain. Temples and palaces have been found atop many Meso/South American pyramids and it is known that many of the gods the various cultures worshipped 'lived' in the mountains. Mountains were a source of weather and water - both extremely important elements in the lives of the people. Building an artificial mountain in the city meant both worship/rituals and the high officials of the people were 'closer' to their gods.

The Egyptian pyramids also had, I believe, a ritual nature - in being a representation of the primordial mound Ta-tenen. This concept was deified as the god Ptah. Ptah was a peraticularly important deity for Egyptian craftsmen, including stone masons, and came to represent reincarnation to this group of the Egyptian social heirarchy. This motif of creation and reincarnation was carried on with Ptah through long periods of Dynastic Egypt.

Thus the pyramid had great ritual meaning to the Egyptians and was a focus for their belief in reincarnation. Thus Egyptian pyramids did not have this purpose of being a 'high place of worship' as the Meso/South American pyramids did.

[Harte]

Agreed. And the ziggurats were primarily observatories. Their construction allowed priests to more accurately view the positions of stars and planets as they rose because the various levels provided an nice, even "false horizon" against which they could measure position.

Harte

[1.618]

I have read something by some pseudoarchaeologist about the metallic clamps used at a site in South America (Tihuanaco, aka Tiwanaku) consisting of an alloy that cannot be made at the temperature generally accepted as the maximum temperature the natives in the area were capable of generating.

Got anything on this? I mean, it's a small thing. But if it's true then it is, at least, an Unsolved Mystery!

Harte

Weren't they some type of copper alloy?

As usual i'm struggling to recall although i have seen them mentioned in several books. Very similar 'staples' were used by another monument building culture too.

[darkbreed]

Yes I think the pyramids where used as tombs, at least the egyptian ones, and possibly some of the latin american ones such as the mentioned case where the tombs where discovered "under" the pyramid (maybe they were just too lazy to get it properly done ) - though at the same time I believe they used the pyramids for more purposes than just tombs, as I've explained earlier in posts here, such as various ceremonial/ritualistic religious work. And in latin americas that is already an established fact from discoveries made (like you mentioned earlier, sacrifices etc, and astronomical work etc was probably also something they used some of them for)

Good point about keeping the mourners away from sunburns, heck they've suffered enough already hehe.

And yes you are correct, I obviously meant "culture" there and not "civilization" just a effect of typing too fast and having many things in my mind at once =)

Regarding the clamps you mention, I was actually thinking about those myself but unfortunately I can no longer remember the source of this information so I will have to try look around some on that and see what I can come up with, but it sounds like you're talking about the same thing I read about. Hopefully I or someone else will find some more information on this and possibly other ancient metal work in latin americas that could be of interest.

So with that said, my purpose is not to try convert people to believe anything specific with this thread, it is on the other hand a thread to help me get more insights myself regarding things I find curious and I see might be related to contact with other cultures/civilizations in other continents at some time in ancient past, and I am trying to present the things that I find interesting and personally think points in that direction and I'm just glad for any information that can be given to either strengthen or disprove such theories as I'm looking for what really was going on back then.

At least I'm not claiming aliens had anything to do with it or that Atlantis is some other dimension Actually I'm not claiming anything I'm just looking at possibilities that I see might have taken place due to what I consider evidence supporting such possibilities. In the end, I may be completely wrong, or right, or somewhere in between =)

Best regards

-EA

EDIT: Just noticed you mention the pyramids used for astronomical observations yourself in a post further down after replying to this one, so guess we at least agree on that part =)

Re the tombs at Giza, yes there are tombs in the "shadow of the pyramids" but let's remember here that the discussion was not about tombs nearby the megalithic structures; the discussion was about whether these structures were actually tombs themselves.

After all, going with your claim of tombs "under" the Peruvian "pyramid," the tomb you just mentioned could be used as "proof" that the Great Pyramid was constructed as a tomb, which is the opposite of what many here claim (though it is the same as what I, and apparently you, claim.)

Your National Geographic article (BTW, I agree that the article was certainly lacking, especially given the reputation of Nat. Geo.) actually states, I believe, that there have been several instances of tombs found next to Mesoamerican "pyramids." The Egyptian tomb you bring up might therefore be better used as evidence that both cultures built "pyramids" in order to have something cast a shadow on their leader's gravesites, eh? You know, keep the mourners from sunburn or some such!

I find I cannot prevent myself from once again commenting here that there was no "civilization" in Egypt 11,000 years ago. Please refrain from using the term "civilization" in an anthropological context unless you are using the anthropological meaning of the word.

The word to use here is the Egyptian "culture."

I have read something by some pseudoarchaeologist about the metallic clamps used at a site in South America (Tihuanaco, aka Tiwanaku) consisting of an alloy that cannot be made at the temperature generally accepted as the maximum temperature the natives in the area were capable of generating.

Got anything on this? I mean, it's a small thing. But if it's true then it is, at least, an Unsolved Mystery!

Harte

[darkbreed]

Another question, when it comes to the "anomalies, to call it that, like the ancient artifacts showing what really seems almost obviously as both negroids, bearded asians and caucasians etc, as well as in other art and texts and legends from those times, how do the "experts" explain that part? I find those specially curious as they seem to correctly reflect people from other cultures in other continents at the time they were made. Some of the negroid features and asian features I've already presented in previous posts, where I also compared a couple latin american asian style artifacts with ancient asian artifacts that have a striking resemblance. I also posted a little on what I think look caucasian. And for more about the bearded artifacts here is a link with many of them mentioned with photos: http://chapmanresearch.org/PDF/Bearded%20F...t%20America.pdf

And yeah I know that is a mormon guy who's made that but it's still relevant as they are real ancient artifacts from the latin americas. And yeah I know there are more too than mentioned on that page but that are some good examples. Some of them I've seen myself in my travels in Mexico.

Also, I'm curious about if the critics have ever responded with something that makes sense in regards of the replies to the critics of the "cocaine mummies" as presented in this paper: http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/...2000/wells.html

In addition I'm interested in more insights regarding claims like the ones that Olmec and Africans used the same writing system called Mende script as put forth by Clyde Winters, which he talks some about on his page here http://geocities.com/olmec982000/ortiz1.htm

He also have some more information and analysis on that and other aspects that links the Olmecs with Africans in his paper African Origin of the Olmec:Science and Myth at http://geocities.com/olmec982000/afmaya2.pdf

There's also many other claims about connections between Olmecs and Africans, some sound more or less interesting while other seem dubious, but it seems to be a collection of theories from different people at: http://www.essaysbyekowa.com/olmecs.htm

Some things I've adressed in earlier posts but not really gotten any feedback on that could be interesting hearing more about, either if there is evidence against such claims or evidence supporting such claims.

Also I'm curious about the Labyrinth Mystery as it is claimed to be found in both egypt and peru on ancient engravings which would support a contact between the two (also many other cultures and continents are involved here):http://mmmgroup.altervista.org/e-labiri.html

However since little information is available on this, I am not sure if this is real, and I'm trying to get in contact with the people who are running the site to get in touch with the respective people whom have documented the engravings in both egypt and peru so I can look further into it and try figure out if it is something to it or not. But the labyrinth mystery itself is real and documented all over the world, among other at least native north american indians have been using this symbol for ages along with people in other continents which still makes it interesting. There's also a wikipedia article, which do not go so much in depth as the mentioned one, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth

And for some interesting, or if nothing else at least entertaining, theories there is plenty to look through at and not something I expect to be responded to as it is way too many theories, I just present it as some "interesting reading"

Pre-columbian oceanic contact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian...oceanic_contact

Olmec alternative origin speculations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_alterna...in_speculations

Best regards,

-EA

[saturnrings]

Well I mentioned other things that suggest what I theorize about here in addition to the masonry and stonework alone. For example Platos description of where it is, which means, that if he told the truth, the egyptians whom told him about Atlantis must gotten this from either someone who survived and ended up in Egypt, or they were themselves related to the Atlanteans, or they had traveled to Atlantis and had some connection with eachother.

And, we have the mentioned tobacco and cocaine mummies. And yes I know it is possible that this is due to later contamination, but as far I know that is just a theory as well. However research seem to show the contamination as less likely according to the tests done by the discoverer and others, here is a quote:

have you got evidence which confirm that Plato had been told about the Egyptians?

theres a bit of a historical gap between the two civilisations, additionally Plato was also speculative about the Atlantis, it has also come to my attention that Atlantis was around Asia and the Pacific, the geographical location of Atlantis according to the philosopher.

on another note, when you speak about Egyptians do you refer to the Pharaohs because also there's a difference in the bodily structure, unless you imply that Altanteans were giants.

again from my own research i have found that Atlantis had survived the deluge and some of them went to greece, where they establish the greek civilisation.unless -again- Atlanteans were spread around the med, then again does that fits in with your findings so far?

just a side note to consider or tho, i have doubts about the actual facts as history varies from place to place ...hmmm

Edited September 4, 2008 by saturnrings

[saturnrings]

At least I'm not claiming aliens had anything to do with it or that Atlantis is some other dimension Actually I'm not claiming anything I'm just looking at possibilities that I see might have taken place due to what I consider evidence supporting such possibilities. In the end, I may be completely wrong, or right, or somewhere in between =)

EDIT: Just noticed you mention the pyramids used for astronomical observations yourself in a post further down after replying to this one, so guess we at least agree on that part =)

Atlantis has reached a very high level of civilization, call them 'aliens' at least works well as a comparison to the rest of the priminitive people.....

pyramids were also used to ground energies from 'portals'......hence the pointy tip.....

[darkbreed]

Well actually it was Critias whom brought the story about Atlantis from Egypt and told Plato about it, Plato is the one who wrote about it. And since he was talking about the egyptians he must have been told about the egyptians and known about them logically.

And Plato stated it was beyond the pillars of hercules which is the Straight of Gibraltar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Hercules ) which leads to the Atlantic ocean, he also specifically says that Atlantis was a continent on its own, larger than both Asia and Libya put together so saying that Atlantis was "around Asia and the pacific ocean" makes little sense as he described it being the other way which mostly leaves only one option fitting his description: latin americas. I've described this part pretty well in my first post in this thread.

Assuming he was talking about a real place and that he indeed had gotten this story from Egyptians, this means that the Egyptians also must have known about Atlantis somehow. And if Latin Americas, or parts of Latin Americas, was Atlantis, the evidence I have put forth in these pages suggest a connection between ancient latin americas and africa/egypt which again makes the story hold ground. In other words, the evidence suggests that the most probable location of Atlantis is Latin Americas, and that the Egyptians/Africans had been in connection with latin americans/Atlantis, and thus shared either a common origin or just another sort of connection like trading route etc with the atlanteans.

When I speak about the egyptians I speak of the people in general, not the pharaos, and I don't see what giants got to do with anything here, no evidence suggesting pharaos were "giants" as far I know of.

Also, I agree that some atlanteans probably survived as that seem to be the link between people in africa and latin america as well as other places they might have migrated after the cataclysmic events.

For the moment I do not see any evidence that indicates that Atlanteans went to Greek, but it seems they or later cultures related to them got around quite a bit so it is possible they went there as well but assuming they are behind the Greek civilization I don't see anything that supports. Though it is said they fought there but lost, and also that they went to africa and europe, according to Plato.

The height of what the atlanteans reached when it comes to level of civilization I think we may see mirrored in their connection to latin america and egypt, the rest of the atlantean civilization I speculate in being submerged underwater around or close to latin americas so until the main center of Atlantis is found and recovered (if it exists) we can't know much more about them. I don't think they were in any way "aliens" or more developed than us, perhaps they were more spiritually advanced but not technologically etc (at least there's no evidence suggesting they did more than building stone monuments and constructures etc if we base their connection with Latin Americas and Egypt).

Regarding what use the pyramids had, I have my own theories in regards of that in addition to the known facts about them =)

-EA

[Golden Hawk]

Okay - here's a theory for ya!!

This hypothesis of course is based on the fact that these "blocks" were still wet and not completely cured. This method was used in the not-so-distant-past on the priairies, when folks first settled the plains of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. They had nothing to build houses with, as there are hardly any trees on the priairies, so they built "soddies". These are actually dug into the ground like a cave, but not so deep. Then taking the dirt that had been dug out, they made bricks with it. The bricks were left to dry in the sun for a time, until they were something like silly putty. Workable, and not breakable as would be a hard brick. The bricks would then be placed and shaped to wherever they had to go. After that, a slime of clay and water was spread over the roof which made it waterproof.

The same "soddies" were constructed in the plains states and territories of the American prairie states.

My maternal grandfather was born in a "soddie" and received special recognition from his home state as "A Child of the Prairie", which those born in soddies were known as. Great building material, the down sides (and there were many) included insects and bugs, snakes, paririe dogs, etc.

[saturnrings]

Well actually it was Critias whom brought the story about Atlantis from Egypt and told Plato about it, Plato is the one who wrote about it. And since he was talking about the egyptians he must have been told about the egyptians and known about them logically.

And Plato stated it was beyond the pillars of hercules which is the Straight of Gibraltar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Hercules ) which leads to the Atlantic ocean, he also specifically says that Atlantis was a continent on its own, larger than both Asia and Libya put together so saying that Atlantis was "around Asia and the pacific ocean" makes little sense as he described it being the other way which mostly leaves only one option fitting his description: latin americas. I've described this part pretty well in my first post in this thread.

Assuming he was talking about a real place and that he indeed had gotten this story from Egyptians, this means that the Egyptians also must have known about Atlantis somehow. And if Latin Americas, or parts of Latin Americas, was Atlantis, the evidence I have put forth in these pages suggest a connection between ancient latin americas and africa/egypt which again makes the story hold ground. In other words, the evidence suggests that the most probable location of Atlantis is Latin Americas, and that the Egyptians/Africans had been in connection with latin americans/Atlantis, and thus shared either a common origin or just another sort of connection like trading route etc with the atlanteans.

When I speak about the egyptians I speak of the people in general, not the pharaos, and I don't see what giants got to do with anything here, no evidence suggesting pharaos were "giants" as far I know of.

Also, I agree that some atlanteans probably survived as that seem to be the link between people in africa and latin america as well as other places they might have migrated after the cataclysmic events.

For the moment I do not see any evidence that indicates that Atlanteans went to Greek, but it seems they or later cultures related to them got around quite a bit so it is possible they went there as well but assuming they are behind the Greek civilization I don't see anything that supports. Though it is said they fought there but lost, and also that they went to africa and europe, according to Plato.

The height of what the atlanteans reached when it comes to level of civilization I think we may see mirrored in their connection to latin america and egypt, the rest of the atlantean civilization I speculate in being submerged underwater around or close to latin americas so until the main center of Atlantis is found and recovered (if it exists) we can't know much more about them. I don't think they were in any way "aliens" or more developed than us, perhaps they were more spiritually advanced but not technologically etc (at least there's no evidence suggesting they did more than building stone monuments and constructures etc if we base their connection with Latin Americas and Egypt).

Regarding what use the pyramids had, I have my own theories in regards of that in addition to the known facts about them =)

-EA

just adding my £ 0.02 but since 'you know' -despite the fact that you have admitted that you 'speculate'- i will have to say that egyptian monuments show two different heights when they depict human figures, ie gods and other humans.

Atlantis was highly developed civilization so not sure how this escaped your speculations on the matter.

for the ancients spirituality and techonolgy goes hand in hand!

also, the last few years science trying to figure how on earth all these big slabs of stones were moved around....is that not a sign of developed techology??? (see also the coral caste as a side note as it gives in a spin an idea on the matter)

OR maybe implies that the humans were bigger in size, at least bigger from the average today's person?

did Plato had an undesrtanding of the vasteness of this earth when history says the he mainly resided in Athens and if so how???

so i would question Critias / Plato , why you assuming that describing something makes one a learned person?

its just a speculation, as well as adding bits to make the story more interesting or look up greek myths ie asop.....(its called story telling )

examining Plato's work is also important so to consider the context of his work....and why he wrote about the continent at first place?

same as you i have my own opinions but since i declare that i speculate on something, is important to conciser many other options simply because Atlantis has been discussed by many, and yet it remains a mystery for the most.

fascinating story either ways or tho its unlikely that there's coherence as far as the sources is concerned.

from this stand point you collated information that makes sense but really, if you planning to go public with it, you may as well open up to lots of debates.....hmmm good luck with this part

regards

sr

Edited September 4, 2008 by saturnrings

[1.618]

Some links on ancient south american metallurgy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in...ian_Mesoamerica

http://meta-religion.com/Archaeology/South..._metallurgy.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70423100437.htm

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~mvanbure/metallurgybiblio.htm

[The Gremlin]

as pax and harte have mentioned the egyptian pyramids, which evolved from the mastaba tomb, were constructed as tombs.

Those of south america were not, they may have had burials near or nearly under them but they were not constructed as tombs but for ritual purposes.

big difference

in this they do indeed more closely resemble the zigurats of mesopotamia.

the only real similarity with the egyptian pyramids appears to be their approximate shape.

edit to add...

1.618, nice links...

Edited September 4, 2008 by lil gremlin

[Harte]

EDIT: Just noticed you mention the pyramids used for astronomical observations yourself in a post further down after replying to this one, so guess we at least agree on that part =)

Darkie,

I only have time right now to address this part of your post - maybe someone else can pick up the slack.

Anyway, I think you're referring to what I said about ziggurats. I don't think the pyramids were used for astronomical purposes (the Egyptian ones anyway.)

I suppose many platform mounds may have been utilized for astronomical observation, but mostly they were for rituals. Mesoamerican astronomy usually involved buildings with interiors (and uprights in the windows to facilitate marking passages of stars and planets across the sky.)

At least, that's what I seem to remember of what I've read about it.

Harte

[Leonardo]

as pax and harte have mentioned the egyptian pyramids, which evolved from the mastaba tomb, were constructed as tombs.

Those of south america were not, they may have had burials near or nearly under them but they were not constructed as tombs but for ritual purposes.

big difference

And that they were constructed, and used, for different purposes would seem to indicate there was not a common origin from whence they were derived.

I really don't understand why people still take the Atlantis of Plato as being a real place! Read the books, people, you will see his Atlantis is a metaphor. The reason he set Atlantis beyond the Pillars of Heracles is because not much (if anything) was known about what lay beyond, so he could develop this mythical civilisation in his story without having the pedants of the day point out that no such civilisation existed [if he had set it in the 'known' world]. It added mystique to his books and hence they were more popular.

An analogy would be the science fiction writing of today, setting an advanced, ancient civilisation on a planet orbiting another star!