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iph33r

Practical Magic

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I have posted this in another sub-form because I couldn't decide which this topic belonged in. Anyways, I just watched a movie called Practical Magic with Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, and it re-newed my faith in practicing magic and possessing psychic abilities openly. Is there anyone who practices magic or use their abilities out in the open, and how do others react to it?

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I have posted this in another sub-form because I couldn't decide which this topic belonged in. Anyways, I just watched a movie called Practical Magic with Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, and it re-newed my faith in practicing magic and possessing psychic abilities openly. Is there anyone who practices magic or use their abilities out in the open, and how do others react to it?

hehe same movie that got me interested in magic and all that stuff when i was only 10, that and the craft haha love those movies.

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I have posted this in another sub-form because I couldn't decide which this topic belonged in. Anyways, I just watched a movie called Practical Magic with Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, and it re-newed my faith in practicing magic and possessing psychic abilities openly. Is there anyone who practices magic or use their abilities out in the open, and how do others react to it?

"To know, to dare, to keep silent"

Magic is practiced in silence because of the way people react to it.

What I am dealing with is a perfect example, and I do not practice any of my faith system in public. Yet I am met with agression, hostility, fear and threats. Depending on where in the world you are, silence is usually the safest route.

If such practices were truly considered equal then Wicca, witchcraft, etc, would be recognized by the Supreme court as a religion.

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"To know, to dare, to keep silent"

Magic is practiced in silence because of the way people react to it.

What I am dealing with is a perfect example, and I do not practice any of my faith system in public. Yet I am met with agression, hostility, fear and threats. Depending on where in the world you are, silence is usually the safest route.

If such practices were truly considered equal then Wicca, witchcraft, etc, would be recognized by the Supreme court as a religion.

There is magic that is plain sleight of hand tricks, and there is supposed to be the kind called black magic which is believed to be done with the help of demonic powers.

If you are an instructed Christian you know from Bible classes or Sunday school that black magic is prohibited by God, because God does not like His people to engage in enlisting the aid of demons and not to patronize persons who consort with demons.

How do we know when someone is practicing black magic?

From my knowledge of my Christian faith, if the purpose is purely innocent amusement fun, like pulling out rabbits from a hat, that is just sleight of hand magic, not black magic.

If the purpose is evil, for example when a practitioner claims to be able to make a spouse leave his lawfully married life partner, so that you can achieve your wicked desire of courting one of the separated spouses.

Of course some smart people can make a living with promises to do black magic for your unholy purposes, but they don't really enjoy any assistance from demons.

The question may be asked, "Are there really demons?"

As a matter of fact there are all kinds of demonology, for example, Christian demonology, Islamic demonology, Judaic demonology, Hindu demonology, Buddhist demonology, and also Chinese folk demonology, to name just some.

There are more, much more entities in the world than scientific instruments can detect.

What do I think about demons?

They are of course in Christian theology creatures of God who just love to do mischief to man and among men.

What I like God to do if He does not mind my suggestion, is to try converting them from demonic entities to good creatures after serving Him, and being of benefit to man, like the angels in good standing with God.

Well, we don't know the mind of God, why He allows demons to do their mischievous deeds to man; that is His business.

And just we mind our own business, which is to keep His commandments and love one another.

What about black magic?

If there be people who really can perform feats of black magic, then I like to meet with them and ask them whether they would just ask and convince their demon partners to think about doing their kinds of powers for solving the problems of mankind, instead of being part of the problems of mankind.

Think about that.

By the way, black magic and demons could account for some unexplained mysteries.

--------------------------------------

"If such practices were truly considered equal then Wicca, witchcraft, etc, would be recognized by the Supreme court as a religion."

I think the law considers a belief and observance system to be a religion if it serves a good purpose as good is defined also by the law.

Magic for fun amusement and black magic don't to my mind fit the idea of being oriented toward a good purpose, as good is traditionally understood also in the religions believing in God.

What about the Church of Satan? It can be and probably is registered as a non-profit society, but as a religion? I have to find out about the last point.

Oslove

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I havn't the energy today to be eloquent so I'm going to have to be blunt and I'm sorry if it offends.

"There is magic that is plain sleight of hand tricks, and there is supposed to be the kind called black magic which is believed to be done with the help of demonic powers."

So illusionists are devil worshipers?

"If you are an instructed Christian you know from Bible classes or Sunday school that black magic is prohibited by God, because God does not like His people to engage in enlisting the aid of demons and not to patronize persons who consort with demons."

The bible was written by men, not God. When God wants to appear before everyone and tell us his rules then I will consider changing my moral practices, which include honoring the gift of this earth we live upon, honoring my parents, loving my children, celibrating the changing of the seasons, Working to change things for myself rather then praying for help all the time, giving thanks for the blessings I have and finding the strength in MYSELF to endure what I must. Praying for others to be helped and helping them when they need it and praying for punishment on those who have done evil. I'm not christian so does that make all these things bad?

"How do we know when someone is practicing black magic?"

Black Magic is an oxymoron. There is no black magic and no white magic. Magic is what it is. That like saying "Black prayers and White prayers" It becomes the responsibility of the weilder to accept responsibility for what they do. A gun isn't responsible for hurting and killing people, the person pulling the trigger it.

"If the purpose is evil, for example when a practitioner claims to be able to make a spouse leave his lawfully married life partner, so that you can achieve your wicked desire of courting one of the separated spouses."

You are assuming that all people who use magic are dis-loyal, lu****l and wicked. That is as wrong as assuming that all christians are mindless sheep.

"The question may be asked, "Are there really demons?"

By the christian definition? Everything that isn't an angel is a demon. Earth spirits, spirits of the deceased, etc.

"What I like God to do if He does not mind my suggestion, is to try converting them from demonic entities to good creatures after serving Him, and being of benefit to man, like the angels in good standing with God."

If something evil is done with a good purpose, is it still evil? For example. If a person 'summons a demon' to protect a good person from other evil (using the logic that a demon (by christian definition mind you) will recognize other 'demonic' danger) then is the act still evil?

"What about black magic? "

see above answer

"If there be people who really can perform feats of black magic, then I like to meet with them and ask them whether they would just ask and convince their demon partners to think about doing their kinds of powers for solving the problems of mankind, instead of being part of the problems of mankind."

hypothetical; I perform rituals calling for the aid of elementals, which by christian definition are demons. Those 'spells' I cast with the purpose of cleansing and protecting the homes and lives of my loved ones, and anyone else who asks for that matter. So, am I a black witch?

"I think the law considers a belief and observance system to be a religion if it serves a good purpose as good is defined also by the law."

The law only determines 'good' because of it's inherint connection to christianity. Wicca and Witchcraft ARE NOT EVIL and ARE NO BAD, yet they are not considered religions.

"Magic for fun amusement and black magic don't to my mind fit the idea of being oriented toward a good purpose, as good is traditionally understood also in the religions believing in God."

By amusement if you mean the harm of another I agree. I do not condone the use of magic for love affairs or anything that would harm another. I have a moral belief in Honor and Loyalty. I think magic done for selfish reasons is wrong, but that is my opinion and just that.

"What about the Church of Satan? It can be and probably is registered as a non-profit society, but as a religion? I have to find out about the last point."

They are/were non profit at one point, but research into the church of satan would show you they do not worship satan, they don't even beleive in him. They practice solely for the sake of selfishness. I cannot and do not agree with such practices, so I simply do not walk that path, it is not for me to judge them.

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I'm curious, what magic can you do? What are we talking about here?

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Great post, MaggieDruydess. I just can't understand how people can post drivel about subjects they know nothing about. I have read so many posts by people who have never actually done any reading about magic, they just liten to their priests or pastors and take that as the truth. And that everything that is not an angel is a demon? Good gravy, that is so narrow minded...it's a wonder we ever advanced further than the Dark Ages.

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"If such practices were truly considered equal then Wicca, witchcraft, etc, would be recognized by the Supreme court as a religion."

Wicca/witchcraft and paganism ARE recognized officially by a vast number of courts and states and organizations.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_rel.htm

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/288F157A-123...2-B759E25E9904/

Oh and on a side note.....no religion has to be "officially recognized by the Supreme Court" to be a religion or to gain taxexempt status.

This is a country where freedom to worship reigns supreme. The courts don't matter, except when a Wiccan'srights are threatened.

Edited by pendora

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I'm curious, what magic can you do? What are we talking about here?

What kind of magic do I do? I'm not sure what sort of answer you are looking for so I'll do my best. Stripping away any ritual that i might use (which never brings harm to any living thing) I do what many others do. I focus my will and my energy to a particular end.

I know a few cool card tricks too! ;)

What are we talking about? From what I have seen we are attempting simplify or define the essence of life and energy into simple black and white terms and so attempting to soothe are fragile human psychie into thinking things are simple and black and white.

Edited by MaggieDruydess

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Great post, MaggieDruydess. I just can't understand how people can post drivel about subjects they know nothing about. I have read so many posts by people who have never actually done any reading about magic, they just liten to their priests or pastors and take that as the truth. And that everything that is not an angel is a demon? Good gravy, that is so narrow minded...it's a wonder we ever advanced further than the Dark Ages.

It is human nature to be afraid of things we do not understand, that are new, and to be afraid of the dark. Without technology humans are not the rulers of the earth, we are not the universal preditors. There is no sense in being angry at those who are frightened, it does nothing but give them reason to hate us. We find answers in the world that is available to us, that does not make one stupid or cowardly, it makes them human. Had I not had the experiences in my youth I did, I may well not be the person I am today. I might have ended up angry and afraid too. Everyone has a path to walk, it is not to us to judge them or tell them what steps to take.

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I havn't the energy today to be eloquent so I'm going to have to be blunt and I'm sorry if it offends.

[...]

It's okay, I am not offended; we are all here trying to express our thoughts and with a grain or two of humor.

That is true from my part, at least.

[...]

"What I like God to do if He does not mind my suggestion, is to try converting them from demonic entities to good creatures after serving Him, and being of benefit to man, like the angels in good standing with God."

If something evil is done with a good purpose, is it still evil? For example. If a person 'summons a demon' to protect a good person from other evil (using the logic that a demon (by christian definition mind you) will recognize other 'demonic' danger) then is the act still evil?

According to traditional morality in the West, the end does not justify the means.

However, if you can get a demon to do something good, then by all means do call on demons and I will give you the credit for contacts with good demons.

Even human vampires are now accepted by Hollywood to be into fighting crimes and the forces of conventional evil in human society.

[...]

hypothetical; I perform rituals calling for the aid of elementals, which by christian definition are demons. Those 'spells' I cast with the purpose of cleansing and protecting the homes and lives of my loved ones, and anyone else who asks for that matter. So, am I a black witch?

[...]

I think if I am not mistaken originally the word demon means a spirit of inspiration to artistic people to get good ideas for doing arts -- from Greek, daemon or daimon; but I am not so sure now about my etymology.

[...]

They are/were non profit at one point, but research into the church of satan would show you they do not worship satan, they don't even beleive in him. They practice solely for the sake of selfishness. I cannot and do not agree with such practices, so I simply do not walk that path, it is not for me to judge them.

Yes, I know about that, but what I can't understand is their use of the word or name Satan for an indication that their church has to do with Satan, for it gives them a bad press. which when you observe them at close hand they don't really go for heinous killing and all kinds of wicked perversities.

But I really like to meet some ex or former Satanists to ask them about what advantages they derived from being members of the Church of Satan (incorporated of course).

What advantages? How about the big umbrella of rendering them more healthy in body and in mind, more productive in earnings, and more likable in their neighborhood, in other words happy, i.e., satisfied with life and what life brings.

Dear MaggieDruydess:

Are you some practicing kind of witch or black magician?

You are okay if you can help people in your city block or your countrysides who are leaving the house but can't locate the car keys, and they just have to call you by phone, and you can tell them to look at particular spots in their home, at least limiting the number to less than ten, and they will surely locate the car keys.

And if your neighbors should be having a splitting headache, you can give them some of your own concocted ointment for them to rub on their temples, and voila the headache is gone.

That is definitely some good witchcraft or good black magic.

Tell me, what do you say about the ouija board, does it really get us in contact with spirits, so that we can do some investigations on their kind of existence and operation?

But I really enjoy writing posts in web message boards; hope you do also.

Oslove

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"Dear MaggieDruydess:

Are you some practicing kind of witch or black magician?"

I study and practice many things; Alchemy, 'magick', Astology, Astronomy, Tarot, Totems, Runes. I study herblore, aromatherapy. My disciplines include Tai Chi, Karate, horsemanship. What have these to do with magick? The discipline and responsibility you learn from them and use that to apply to new endeavors. The list of my occult research and practices goes on and on, but not something I usually divulge in a public way do to the lack of open mindedness and understanding of a vast majority of people. I have enough troubles as it is without inviting more.

"You are okay if you can help people in your city block or your countrysides who are leaving the house but can't locate the car keys, and they just have to call you by phone, and you can tell them to look at particular spots in their home, at least limiting the number to less than ten, and they will surely locate the car keys.

And if your neighbors should be having a splitting headache, you can give them some of your own concocted ointment for them to rub on their temples, and voila the headache is gone.

That is definitely some good witchcraft or good black magic."

Thank you?

"Tell me, what do you say about the ouija board, does it really get us in contact with spirits, so that we can do some investigations on their kind of existence and operation?"

I played (and thats exactly what it was) with a ouija board a couple times in my youth. Those of us using it were already aware of the situation of our location when we did so. The fact we received answers and acurate information though was invalid becuase of what we already knew.

Another time I simply watched people using a board with no ill effects and yet another time I witnessed very ill effects.

I personally do not use a board. I like my pendulum but it rarely works, though that could be explained by the messed up electric in my system from being struck by lightning as a child. I use tarot cards with great results, as well as simple meditation/chaneling.

I'm not sure any advice I would give would work for anyone else. I think my 'ability' stems from my past; the lightning strike, being born with no vital signs and having to be recusitated, and surviving a severe illness without medication. Perhaps my 'wiring' is crossed somewhere. Perhaps i just imagine thing that happen to be accurate. Other then these things I see, hear and feel i am otherwise 'normal'.

My advice to others is always and only this: study study study. learn all you can about everything you can and never be afraid. Beleive completely in yourself and you will never be alone.

"But I really enjoy writing posts in web message boards; hope you do also."

I enjoy writting, though I admit I am not very well worded and not always so good at explaining. People tend to think my asking questions are a form of hostility when in truth it is nothing more then a question. I am enjoying this conversation though.

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I had been interested in magic since the late 70's. Yes I am dating myself a bit. Unfortunately MaggieDruydess is correct in her statement that many practitioners have to do so in silence. Yes there are some communities who welcome this practice with open arms, and yet the general consensus on magic is it is viewed as being either kooky or down right evil (depending on the religious text you read). I have been and practitioner of Shamanism for some time now, but I do like to keep abreast on other forms of magic by either reading or finding others who practice and picking their brain.

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I had been interested in magic since the late 70's. Yes I am dating myself a bit. Unfortunately MaggieDruydess is correct in her statement that many practitioners have to do so in silence. Yes there are some communities who welcome this practice with open arms, and yet the general consensus on magic is it is viewed as being either kooky or down right evil (depending on the religious text you read). I have been and practitioner of Shamanism for some time now, but I do like to keep abreast on other forms of magic by either reading or finding others who practice and picking their brain.

Of course, nobody would practice ritualistic-type magic in the open! However, for instance, if someone came up to you in the mall and asks you to do a tarot reading for them, Would you do it right there with lots of people around? How about performing a spell right there in the open? Demonstrating abilities of psychometry/telepathy/PK (or TK)/etc in public?

being either kooky or down right evil

Been watching that Addams Family M&M commercial, huh? ;)

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Dear Maggie and everyone into all kinds of things which majority in society consider to be evil whatever that means -- evil usually means they don't welcome it for no other reason than that they think they might suffer some harm, or others will think of them to be in league with the devil whatever.

If you ask me, that is censorship of acts, worse than censorship of speech.

The majority in society is always into censoring minorities in society, because it's more comfortable for them that everyone is like them, then no need to adjust everytime they come on someone or something different.

Witchcraft, black magic or magick whatever, the number one rule in all one's speech and acts and even just thoughts, "Do no harm."

When we have observed that rule faithfully, then we can start to do good to others, and I have no objections against anyone into witchcraft or black magick who makes a decent living from them.

There more entities and laws in the world than science can detect and traditional values will sanction.

What I wish is that all witches, sorcerers, shamans (and they need not be into shams) would organize and exchange notes, thereby the majority of mankind can relate with them as a group, and get to accept them as regular members of society.

Time for you guys to host a convention.

Oslove

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Of course, nobody would practice ritualistic-type magic in the open! However, for instance, if someone came up to you in the mall and asks you to do a tarot reading for them, Would you do it right there with lots of people around? How about performing a spell right there in the open? Demonstrating abilities of psychometry/telepathy/PK (or TK)/etc in public?

Been watching that Addams Family M&M commercial, huh? ;)

well I would have to say no on the tarot reading just on the basis that I am not a tarot reader and I wouldn't feel right hacking my way through it. Depending on the spell and if I had the prep time to do something then perhaps I would consider doing a spell in the open. Alot of supposes it seems.

heh haven't seen that M&M commercial for a while but it is rather entertaining.

Edited by newbloodmoon

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"To know, to dare, to keep silent"

Magic is practiced in silence because of the way people react to it.

What I am dealing with is a perfect example, and I do not practice any of my faith system in public. Yet I am met with agression, hostility, fear and threats. Depending on where in the world you are, silence is usually the safest route.

If such practices were truly considered equal then Wicca, witchcraft, etc, would be recognized by the Supreme court as a religion.

To Know, To Will, To Dare and To Keep Silent.

The rituals are performed in the body of light. This is what the physical practices prepare the aspirant for. At that point the issue of silence, in the context stated above, is no longer an issue.

In any case, if a practicioner is attracting all sorts of negative spirits and forms of unwanted attention, then he/she is obviously not practicing very effective magick. The proof is in the pudding and the results.

I would recommend to anybody who is just starting out to forget about using magick to accomplish specific goals and instead work to clear away for and build the foundation of the temple. After all, how can one direct the forces of nature if one is standing on shaky ground in the first place? How can magick do anything other than further muddle a person's life up if one is confused and ignorant about the nature of their own individual purpose (i.e. The Great Work, Knowledge and Conversation, etc.)?

Stick to the basics and work on the fundamentals. Anything else is black magick and a recipie for more drama.

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This is one of the movies I love watching with my girls when we are all feeling crappy. There's something about it that not only does the trick but feels magical and comfortable. That's magic in itself.

And yes, I do understand it isn't spot on as far as the 'Rules of Magic' go, but it's pretty dang close!

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What I wish is that all witches, sorcerers, shamans (and they need not be into shams) would organize and exchange notes, thereby the majority of mankind can relate with them as a group, and get to accept them as regular members of society.

Time for you guys to host a convention.

Oslove

I sometimes wish the same thing from the many christian faiths. All of those conflicting ideas are one of the things that turned me away from that religion at a young age.

As to the convention, I tend not to mingle with other people who do reading or spellcraft for money. I have NEVER charged for what I do and NEVER will. If someone wants to donate something I MIGHT accept. I am not saying it is wrong for others to take money, if that is what they want that is thier business, but it is my personal stance that money and the occult should not mix. I have found very few who think the same way thus I do not attend conventions where money and the occult combine.

There are conventions, psychic fairs, and pagan pride days though where people do gather. You can probably find one in your state if you want to.

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To Know, To Will, To Dare and To Keep Silent.

The rituals are performed in the body of light. This is what the physical practices prepare the aspirant for. At that point the issue of silence, in the context stated above, is no longer an issue.

In any case, if a practicioner is attracting all sorts of negative spirits and forms of unwanted attention, then he/she is obviously not practicing very effective magick. The proof is in the pudding and the results.

I would recommend to anybody who is just starting out to forget about using magick to accomplish specific goals and instead work to clear away for and build the foundation of the temple. After all, how can one direct the forces of nature if one is standing on shaky ground in the first place? How can magick do anything other than further muddle a person's life up if one is confused and ignorant about the nature of their own individual purpose (i.e. The Great Work, Knowledge and Conversation, etc.)?

Stick to the basics and work on the fundamentals. Anything else is black magick and a recipie for more drama.

'Magick' Takes an extreme amount of self discipline. If a person lacks the discipline to control themselves and their effects in the physical word I would not recommend them to try magick. I agree with what you say. As for your definition of black magic, I am not sure I agree on that point, but we all have our own ideas and faiths and I respect yours as you have respected mine.

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'Magick' Takes an extreme amount of self discipline. If a person lacks the discipline to control themselves and their effects in the physical word I would not recommend them to try magick. I agree with what you say. As for your definition of black magic, I am not sure I agree on that point, but we all have our own ideas and faiths and I respect yours as you have respected mine.

It does require self discipline, but this is cultivated over time. Magick in itself is pretty open-ended though, and I would say that greater self control is required for more complex and difficult operations, but the beginner is often going to lack this and will have to stick to simpler practices. In fact, it can be argued that any willed act is a magickal act -- which progresses as the magician develops, so even something as simple as praying before bedtime can be considered an act of elementary magick.

In my view, nobody should be barred from or deemed unworthy of practicing Magick. Often times a person will get their life together through thier pirsuit of the Work -- this was the case with me, and my own practices served as an effective way of improving my situation in life. One of my pet peeves is the elitist mentality that Magick is limited only to the few or that the majority of the human race is somehow unfit to learn techniques that can catalyze their evolution as inviduduals. As much as we like to b**** and complain about society, we are no longer living in an age where people are burned at the stake for their beliefs (at least in the west) and therefore the kind of secrecy that was employed in the past is no longer necessary. It often serves as a barrier and is in many ways just another of fear based prejudice today. If the student is ready to learn something, they will, and if not then it wont matter anyway because they wont get it in the first place -- even if it is in plain sight.

As far as my definition of black magick is concerned. There are two paths to take, which both lead to the same place in the end. One is the prudent "Right" path of contemplation that most associate with "White Magick". The other is the more reckless and pasison based "Left" path that has been associated with "Black Magick". Both have their benefits and drawbacks and neither is good or evil in my view. I argue a middle path that combines both.

Black Magick as I was describing before is simply anything that goes against the magician's true path in life. There are no set rules for this and it is really dependent upon the nature of the person practicing. My other pet peve is dogmatic universal "dos" and "donts" that reek of the moralistic hubris which plagues Christianity and the rest of the old religions. Ick...virtue....*shudder*...

For example, what about the case of a professional soldier who is required to kill the enemy in war? Is this person considered evil and a candidate for condemnation because he violates the holy, up on high mandated rule of 'thou shalt not kill'?

Again, it is dependent upon the nature of the individual practicing. There are consequences to one's actions, sure, but to say that something is universally good or evil is childish at best and tyrannical and supersitious at worst.

Even a person who makes mistakes and does "bad" things learns from the experiences brought on by them...so, to hell with it! Experiment and learn from what happens. Otherwise the art becomes stale and stagnant.

'Magick' Takes an extreme amount of self discipline. If a person lacks the discipline to control themselves and their effects in the physical word I would not recommend them to try magick. I agree with what you say. As for your definition of black magic, I am not sure I agree on that point, but we all have our own ideas and faiths and I respect yours as you have respected mine.

It does require self discipline, but this is cultivated over time. Magick in itself is pretty open-ended though, and I would say that greater self control is required for more complex and difficult operations, but the beginner is often going to lack this and will have to stick to simpler practices. In fact, it can be argued that any willed act is a magickal act -- which progresses as the magician develops, so even something as simple as praying before bedtime can be considered an act of elementary magick.

In my view, nobody should be barred from or deemed unworthy of practicing Magick. Often times a person will get their life together through thier pirsuit of the Work -- this was the case with me, and my own practices served as an effective way of improving my situation in life. One of my pet peeves is the elitist mentality that Magick is limited only to the few or that the majority of the human race is somehow unfit to learn techniques that can catalyze their evolution as inviduduals. As much as we like to b**** and complain about society, we are no longer living in an age where people are burned at the stake for their beliefs (at least in the west) and therefore the kind of secrecy that was employed in the past is no longer necessary. It often serves as a barrier and is in many ways just another of fear based prejudice today. If the student is ready to learn something, they will, and if not then it wont matter anyway because they wont get it in the first place -- even if it is in plain sight.

As far as my definition of black magick is concerned. There are two paths to take, which both lead to the same place in the end. One is the prudent "Right" path of contemplation that most associate with "White Magick". The other is the more reckless and pasison based "Left" path that has been associated with "Black Magick". Both have their benefits and drawbacks and neither is good or evil in my view. I argue a middle path that combines both.

Black Magick as I was describing before is simply anything that goes against the magician's true path in life. There are no set rules for this and it is really dependent upon the nature of the person practicing. My other pet peve is dogmatic universal "dos" and "donts" that reek of the moralistic hubris which plagues Christianity and the rest of the old religions. Ick...virtue....*shudder*...

For example, what about the case of a professional soldier who is required to kill the enemy in war? Is this person considered evil and a candidate for condemnation because he violates the holy, up on high mandated rule of 'thou shalt not kill'?

Again, it is dependent upon the nature of the individual practicing. There are consequences to one's actions, sure, but to say that something is universally good or evil is childish at best and tyrannical and supersitious at worst.

Even a person who makes mistakes and does "bad" things learns from the experiences brought on by them...so, to hell with it! Experiment and learn from what happens. Otherwise the art becomes stale and stagnant.

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There is no prep time in any of it, time is not even a factor of it at all, to experiment in the what works and what doesn’t work for the practitioner takes the time, but there are many possibilities, many factors to apply in combinations of, and some create week results and some are right on and instantaneous in results and those are for which you Hewn and focus, in that time is emitted it is not at all a factor…also people set up the failures do to their accepting other successful and non successful practitioners baggage’s or they fail because they are told they will or because they doubt from their own unsure abilities, if I tell you how to succeed or how you will fail, then you are not tapping into you own awareness and abilities and then you are thus as hindered…be that Magic, religious beliefs or whatever, it is where people fail, they fail from within…But there is a lot more for which I cannot nor will I divulge...

Pavot B)

Edited by Pavot

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"In my view, nobody should be barred from or deemed unworthy of practicing Magick. Often times a person will get their life together through thier pirsuit of the Work -- this was the case with me, and my own practices served as an effective way of improving my situation in life. One of my pet peeves is the elitist mentality that Magick is limited only to the few or that the majority of the human race is somehow unfit to learn techniques that can catalyze their evolution as inviduduals. As much as we like to b**** and complain about society, we are no longer living in an age where people are burned at the stake for their beliefs (at least in the west) and therefore the kind of secrecy that was employed in the past is no longer necessary. It often serves as a barrier and is in many ways just another of fear based prejudice today. If the student is ready to learn something, they will, and if not then it wont matter anyway because they wont get it in the first place -- even if it is in plain sight."

I agree with most of what you said here. The reason I still see for secrecy though is because of exactly what I am dealing with now. My family, self and home has been threatened, i've been treated with prejudice by the people, town and corporation. I've been treated such, by such people that it now boarders on Domestic Terrorism and legally prosicutible acts of prejudice. That is the only reason I see for secrecy.

In regards to your comment about the Elitist Mentality, I agree. I think anyone who wants to learn should be able too. A pet peeve of mine are all these online wiccan schools that charge for teaching. I find the combination of teaching the occult, in trade for money rather sickening.

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no such thing as real magic. its all down to excellent slight of hand, psychology, misdirection and making people belive maybe something thats not actually there. i love magic its great cant do any myself but love watching dynamo, criss angel, david blaine. some of the tricks these guys do you think god how is that actually possible or how is he doing that. a few magicians use telekinesis from time tot time to break a glass or bottle or something. but its just really cool illusions.

heres a few videos of some great magic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5f8X2zjgxk

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"In my view, nobody should be barred from or deemed unworthy of practicing Magick. Often times a person will get their life together through thier pirsuit of the Work -- this was the case with me, and my own practices served as an effective way of improving my situation in life. One of my pet peeves is the elitist mentality that Magick is limited only to the few or that the majority of the human race is somehow unfit to learn techniques that can catalyze their evolution as inviduduals. As much as we like to b**** and complain about society, we are no longer living in an age where people are burned at the stake for their beliefs (at least in the west) and therefore the kind of secrecy that was employed in the past is no longer necessary. It often serves as a barrier and is in many ways just another of fear based prejudice today. If the student is ready to learn something, they will, and if not then it wont matter anyway because they wont get it in the first place -- even if it is in plain sight."

I agree with most of what you said here. The reason I still see for secrecy though is because of exactly what I am dealing with now. My family, self and home has been threatened, i've been treated with prejudice by the people, town and corporation. I've been treated such, by such people that it now boarders on Domestic Terrorism and legally prosicutible acts of prejudice. That is the only reason I see for secrecy.

In regards to your comment about the Elitist Mentality, I agree. I think anyone who wants to learn should be able too. A pet peeve of mine are all these online wiccan schools that charge for teaching. I find the combination of teaching the occult, in trade for money rather sickening.

Yes, silence is a tool that should be employed where it is appropriate necessary for the terrain that one is navigating. I've learned the hard way the value of this as too, and it is mostly about discretion, common sense, and (once again) self discipline. I also have found that silence tends to increase the potency and effectiveness of an operation -- it sort of prevents the energies involved from dissapating, much like how the 'silence' of an automobile's gas tank veils its contents from leaking, which otherwise would immobilize the machine.

As far as charging money for teaching of the occult is concerned, I view this as no different from any other opportunistic and predatory practice. Welcome to the jungle.

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