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The Nameless One

Chaos Theory vs. Determinism

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This is the Chaos Theory vs. Determinism Debate, read everything very carefully choose a side and lets have a great debate. thumbsup.gif

Numerology is a spiritual discipline with its roots in both the Jewish Kabala and Eastern mysticism. The theory behind Numerology is that your name is a blueprint of your personality. Reduce your birth name to numbers and you'll discover your personal destiny. Numerology goes hand in hand with Astrology, which gives you a blueprint of your destiny based on your birth date and time. I like to think of the names and birth dates of people as their spiritual bar code. What numerology taught me about myself is the following: If my parents had not given me the name, "Jacco", if they had just changed or omitted one letter in my name, I would have been a totally different person. In May 2001 I started analysing all numbers in my life, bank account numbers, car registration numbers, IDs, birth dates, telephone numbers and many more. I came to the astonishing realisation that every number in my life reduced numerologically to one of the following numbers: 6, 9 and 11. For months at end I continued holding my breath each time I analysed a new number I discovered that related to me personally, only to find yet another number that reduced to 6, 9 or 11.

1991 + 11 = 2002

1993 + 9 = 2002

1996 + 6 = 2002

In 1991 I became ill, in 1993 I became ill again and in 1996 I wrote for the first time that I am the Second Christ. These were the major turning points in my spiritual development. At the end of 2002 I wrote this article and started this web site.

11 + 9 + 6 = 26

2 + 6 = 8

There are 7 days in the Creation Myth. There are 7 notes in the diatonic scale (doh, re, mi, fah, soh, la, ti). On the 8th day/note one returns again to the beginning of the week/scale: ("That will bring us back to doh! Doh! Doh! Doh! Doe a deer a female deer..." from The Sound of Music). Some people call the New Age the 8th day of Creation. Anon its side represents infinity.

Chaos Theory and Determinism I have found to be two of the most intriguing of all scientific concepts. They seem to mutually exclude each other, i.e. either of the two is a truer view of reality. (One of the last great supporters of Determinism was Albert Einstein, who discovered the Relativity Theory and coined the following equation:) E=mcc

Chaos Theory holds that for a single condition there is more than one consequence. Some people hold that Determinism functions only in a closed system, but not in everyday life. A closed system, however, is only a theoretical concept, which makes such a statement nonsensical. Let us take the example of gravity: it is impossible to isolate a specific gravitational system. For example: no matter how far one could theoretically remove the earth and the moon from the sun, there would always be a minute gravitational influence from the rest of the universe on the gravitational field of the earth-moon system, which would make absolutely, totally accurate predictions about the gravitational field of the earth and moon impossible. This complexity in analysing any system and other theories seem to disprove Determinism as a possibility. On a microscopic level Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle states that the position and momentum of a particle cannot be determined simultaneously: light is used in the process of measuring the position and momentum of a particle. This however influences the energy of that particle, which renders it impossible to determine both these aspects. Quantum Theory also holds that on a microscopic level, things become indeterminable, which supports Chaos Theory.

Determinism holds that for a single situation there is only one possible consequence or outcome. All events are locked in a matrix of cause and effect resulting in total predictability in any system.

The Western school of science has however its limitations because of its preoccupation with discarding any thought until it can be proven scientifically, which I believe is the reason why there is still a very strong anti-spiritual current in the scientific world, due to the fact that spirituality is subjective and often seemingly illogical. Nobody can prove that God exists, it is something that one can ultimately only believe. Faith, I was taught, is a firm trust in something that is intangible.

Let me now quantify the theological implications of Chaos Theory and Determinism:

Chaos Theory:

God can predict the future, but only under certain conditions.

Supports our basic experience as human beings of responsibility.

In the act of creation, freedom is given to the whole cosmos.

God does not will the act of a murderer or the incidence of cancer.

God’s intervention in the world becomes debatable.

God's action will always be hidden.

Limits sensible prayer.

Prophecy may occur, but is no longer a certainty.

Determinism:

The world is like a motion-picture film: the picture or still which is just being projected is the present. Those parts of the film, which have already been shown, constitute the past. And those, which have not yet been shown, constitute the future.

Total predictability - the system is predictable by a superior intelligence.

Metaphysical determinism implies predestination.

God knows the future.

Creation is not free to do what it wants.

God is responsible for the acts of a murderer and for cancer.

God is responsible for everything.

Prophecies are always occurring.

Let the Great Debate begin!!!!!

The Nameless One

No Hope=No Fear

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Posted (edited)

Ok if anyones up for the challenge, well Im sure you alreay know that Ive chosen Chaos Theory. grin2.gif

hehehehehe.

Ill be ready to debate at exactly 4:00 pm tommorrow eastern time. But for now get ready cause you know Ill come packing with the evidence.

OH AND ONE MORE THING PLEASE DO NOT POST ABOUT RELIGION!!!!! IM NOT BEING MEAN, IT'S JUST THAT I REALLY DON'T WANT THIS THREAD TO GET CLOSED.

Pretty please thats all Im asking no religious points of view that goe's for all religion.

Everything must come from a Scientific, Psychological, or Philosophical point of view, (NOT RELIGIOUS!!!!).

So I give you 3 categories to come at me with, do not use the number 4.

Remember- Scientific, Psychological, or Philosophical

See everyone tommorrow. I hope we can all have fun with this one, lets show the Mods that we can act responsible with a debate for once.

Edited by The Nameless One

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i standby the chaos theory but im not sure if i be in time for the debate crying.gif

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I stand with chaos. Nothing is for sure, all things have many possibilities about them, even the chaos theory itself. I don't think I will be able to make the debates though. sad.gif

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Well I go along with the chaos theory.

Nothing is pre-determined, and everything you do could have an effect on absolutely anything.

For example let's take Gavriella Princip (spelling unsure). One action of his; i.e. the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his good lady wife, led to war between Serbia and Austria, which in turn led to Germany supporting it's ally, Russia supporting it's ally, Britain and France supporting it's ally etc, and hey presto, out of one decision, we have the First World War.

Now you cannot tell me that it was determined that Princip would decide to assasinate them, nor could it be determined that he would hit the target. Had he missed, the whole future and destiny of the world would have changed. It was his choice and his choice alone.

For the future to be determined, then every last singular action of every single living creature therefore has to be controlled. What we would be saying is that no one/thing has any say on what they do.

The only way the future can be seen, is if it's already been; and that's another issue entirely.

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Ok If nobody defends determinism by 4:00 I will defend the issue of determinism.

Even though I study and believe in the Chaos Theory, I will not let determinism go undetermined, and thrown away without a fight.

There must have to be somebody in this forum who supports determinism. huh.gif

But as I said, if there isn't anybody defending determinism by 4:00 I will take it's defense.

The debate must go on.

I will be coming at you from a Psychological point of view.

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Posted (edited)

Determinism

Implicit in psychological theories, especially in the area of social psychology, is the belief that, if enough variables are known, a person's behavior can always be predicted. Indeed, prediction is the ultimate goal of most research. This orientation strongly indicates that human will is not free but, rather, is determined by factors beyond the control of the individual. The concept of the will is most directly discussed by will psychology and is required, in some form, by all motivational theory; otherwise, there is no explanation for why people act without being directly stimulated. It has also been touched on by several prominent figures in psychology and social theory including William James, Sigmund Freud and Friedrich Nietzsche.

Traditionally, psychologists have insisted that their field is a science, and as a science it deals with phenomena which are predictable. In physics, for instance, one can predict with certainty when an object will hit the earth if certain information is known, the mass and density of the object, the distance it is being dropped from, and the gravity of the planet it is being dropped onto. When you drop an object, it has no choice about whether or not it falls or how fast. The object's behavior is fully determined by the relevant variables.

People are essentially treated as objects by social psychologists. This runs counter to the average persons desire to be able to choose his or her behavior. The normal person says, "I chose to shave my legs." The psychologist replies by saying, "You shaved your legs because social pressures dictate that you must shave your legs or be negatively evaluated by your peers. You have an innate, uncontrollable desire to be positively evaluated by your peers and so you had to shave your legs." The normal person is espousing a philosophy of free will and the psychologist is espousing the philosophy of determinism.

Free will means that a person can make any of a number of choices at any given time, but if there is a Law of Nature that can predict the precise choice that will be made on a particular occasion, then there can be only one choice by definition, not because the Law of Nature caused the behavior, but because other factors worked together to make only one action possible.

Because psychology depends on the Law of Nature (or a similar concept) as something which is knowable, it necessarily denies free will. Rychlak in1979 points out that Behaviorism is the most natural science oriented model of psychology and it does not allow for free will at all. John Watson, the founder of behaviorism, believed that every behavior was the product of a stimulus and response. That is, every behavior was treated as being caused by an external force. When the theory was modified to allow for humans to be working toward a higher order goal by Edward Chace Tolman, it still treated the goal itself as something that had been caused by external forces (Rychlak 1979).

Chaos and randomness however, does not have to indicate absolute free will. It only suggests indeterminism. Indeterminism implies that an complete omniscient being with infinite cognitive capacity (God) could predict a person's behavior perfectly. We as humans cannot know what God knows, so from our own perspective we have free will or complete (Chaos), but, objectively, we do not.

Im waiting for a rebuttal

The Nameless One thumbsup.gif hehehehehe

Edited by The Nameless One

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I think the two collide in time . I would say that time is like a string , what do you know about a string ? The main thing about a string is that one part of the string exists at the same time as another .

In other words , time is an illusion to us . In reality , their is another version of ourself 10 years into the future who thinks they are in the time presence known as "now" just like we think its "now" right now . So in other words , you could say we are both already dead and not born yet . We made the choice when/before/after it came to us and we have free will , we just already did/did not do everything in a sense .

infinite dimensions ! tongue.gif

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In 1991 I became ill, in 1993 I became ill again and in 1996 I wrote for the first time that I am the Second Christ.

Are you still of this mindset? blink.gif

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In 1991 I became ill, in 1993 I became ill again and in 1996 I wrote for the first time that I am the Second Christ.

Are you still of this mindset? blink.gif

Dude I didn't write that. I found the debate on another website, and I posted it because I wanted to see a good debate.

You can find the debate if you type in the words Chaos Theory vs. Determinism in a google search.

Come on now, you should know that The Nameless One is a follower of Chaos Theory.

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Well I go along with the chaos theory.

Nothing is pre-determined, and everything you do could have an effect on absolutely anything.

For example let's take Gavriella Princip (spelling unsure). One action of his; i.e. the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his good lady wife, led to war between Serbia and Austria, which in turn led to Germany supporting it's ally, Russia supporting it's ally, Britain and France supporting it's ally etc, and hey presto, out of one decision, we have the First World War.

Now you cannot tell me that it was determined that Princip would decide to assasinate them, nor could it be determined that he would hit the target. Had he missed, the whole future and destiny of the world would have changed. It was his choice and his choice alone.

For the future to be determined, then every last singular action of every single living creature therefore has to be controlled. What we would be saying is that no one/thing has any say on what they do.

The only way the future can be seen, is if it's already been; and that's another issue entirely.

Anyways back to defending determinism.

Had he missed, the whole future and destiny of the world would have changed. It was his choice and his choice alone.

But he didn't miss!!! Every action we do is already predestined, he was meant to assasinate the Archduke Franz Ferdinand. (If) he missed.

How can you say the world, is of chaos when nothing random is occurring. Do you call your everyday actions random occurences or do you choose what actions you will take from day to day.

Ex. Say you have a clock and set it for 4:00, but you meant to set it for 2:00, are you saying that you still did not make the desicion to set the clock for 4:00.

Nothing changes the fact that before you set the clock that setting the clock for 4:00 wasn't your first decision. You essentially still made the choice.

Your behavior, and lifestyle probably was what helped you decide whether or not you chose to set the clock for 4:00. For instance your usual work schedule made you to set your clock for 4:00. You almost forgot, that you were supposed to come in to work at 2:00 because they needed christmas help.

( I never relised it but it's really hard to defend something that you actually have no belief system in whatsoever.) Nonetheless Im having a good time, and I hope Im doing a good job.

The Nameless One.

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QUOTE 

In 1991 I became ill, in 1993 I became ill again and in 1996 I wrote for the first time that I am the Second Christ.

Are you still of this mindset?

Dude I didn't write that. I found the debate on another website, and I posted it because I wanted to see a good debate
.

Sorry, I inferred something that was inaccurate.

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another interesting this to consider is the psychic phenomena of precognetic dreams .

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another interesting this to consider is the psychic phenomena of precognetic dreams .

Damn Xeno.. I just thought about that argument.. you beat me disgust.gif

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Sometimes scientists think just that little bit too much.

At the end of the day, if I decide to get the 8.10 or the 8.30 train this morning, it is my decision. I am simply not having that it is pre-determined.

You can come up with all the scientific jargon that you want Nameless One, but you are wrong thumbsup.gif

"I am not a number, I am a free man. My life is my own"

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You can come up with all the scientific jargon that you want Nameless One, but you are wrong 

"I am not a number, I am a free man. My life is my own"

Lol, you wish.

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No one will ever be able to successfully predict a persons actions to a precise level of accuracy. Yes, there are always certain factors like psychology or experience which may influence an event, but what if someone makes a decision by a flip of a coin?

I understand the chaos theory argument that even an event like flipping a coin could be predicted by infinitely exhausting mathematics, but no one will ever be able to successfully achieve this. (unless you choose to believe in God whistling2.gif )

Every event that will ever occur is already 'predetermined' as there is no alternative existence, so where you are and what you are doing five years from now is set in stone, as there is no 'control' existence to compare it to. If the future doesnt exist, and 'time' or 'existence' is always moving, there is only one way events will occur as they havent occurred yet.

Premonitions are only our brains way of adding things up. We may have picked up slight clues as to an event, but our conscious mind has not recognised the signs. But when we sleep, the subconscious adds the pieces together and extrapolates a possible outcome. This is not always accurate as people tend to forget the inaccurate premonitions and remember and retell the accurate ones.

To summarise: No mortal will ever be able to accurately predict the future, whether by reading tea leaves or by complex mathematical equations. Now stop worrying about it and get some fresh air.

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Every event that will ever occur is already 'predetermined' as there is no alternative existence, so where you are and what you are doing five years from now is set in stone, as there is no 'control' existence to compare it to. If the future doesnt exist, and 'time' or 'existence' is always moving, there is only one way events will occur as they havent occurred yet.

But the point is there are an infinite amount of possibilities of what that pre-determined future might be.

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But the point is there are an infinite amount of possibilities of what that pre-determined future might be.

But there is only ever one outcome from any set of events.

If you shuffle a pack of cards and lay one face down on the table. There is a one in 52 chance it will be the ace of spades, or a 1/52 chance the three of diamonds and so on.

But in fact it can only be one card, and thats the card it is.

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But the point is there are an infinite amount of possibilities of what that pre-determined future might be.

But there is only ever one outcome from any set of events.

If you shuffle a pack of cards and lay one face down on the table. There is a one in 52 chance it will be the ace of spades, or a 1/52 chance the three of diamonds and so on.

But in fact it can only be one card, and thats the card it is.

Sweet finally someone who is defending determinism.

Ok this means I can stop defending determinism and now defend my actual belief, which is Chaos Theory. (That was really hard defending determinism.)

Ok mowo, in Chaos theory says that maybe there can be 2 outcomes, say that you flip a coin 20 times and hope that it lands on heads that means there is a 1/20 chance that it will land on heads, now the odds against it would be 20/1.

This is where Chaos gets cool, say that 19/1 times it landed on heads, but the last time you flip the coin that it lands on it's edge. You actually never considered the possiblity of the coin flipping on it's edge, so the outcome becomes (to much to fathom because you can't measure the edge of a circle), the outcome was never predetermined, but only happened because of random occurrences working inside forces of equalibrium. You cannot determine what you do not have knowledge of. Therefore what you do not know cannot be predetermined.

The Nameless One

( This is only the beginning, but do not give up I have alot more to say.)

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But if you dropped the coin through a slot in a box and had no way of seeing how it had landed, would that alter the result?

It could have landed on its side, but just because you dont know whether it has or not doesnt alter the outcome.

As for the probability of a coin landing on its edge, it is obvious that the chances are slimmer than it landing on its side, but I do agree to work out the probability to any degree of accuracy would be difficult.

But then surely measuring your own height to any degree of accuracy would be difficult?

You could say 6 feet. Or to be more accurate 6 feet 2 inches. more accurate still 6 feet 2 3/4 inches, and so on until you are down to millionths of an inch.

So, theoretically this would make you infinitely tall, as without just rounding up, there is no limit to how accurate your calculations can be.

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Ok mowo, in Chaos theory says that maybe there can be 2 outcomes, say that you flip a coin 20 times and hope that it lands on heads that means there is a 1/20 chance that it will land on heads, now the odds against it would be 20/1.

That's not the best example...each individual toss is an unrelated factor. There is always, on each and every single throw, a 50/50 chance it will come up heads or tails, not a 20/1 chance. The fact that a coin came up heads in the first through will, in no way, affect the likelyhood of it being heads or tails in the next throw, as a result is not removed from the equation the first time it occurs.

Now, let's say if you had a bag filled with fifty jelly beans, twenty five of which were red, and twenty five were black, and you picked out twenty five, leaving each bean on a table when you did so...THEN it would be very surprising indeed with 24/25 of them were one colour, as you're limiting the factor each time you select it. Here, the occurance of a variable does have an effect on the likelyhood of it occuring again...a coin toss does not, as each individual toss still has a 50% chance of landing one way or the other, regardless of what the previous result was.

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[Here, the occurance of a variable does have an effect on the likelyhood of it occuring again...a coin toss does not, as each individual toss still has a 50% chance of landing one way or the other, regardless of what the previous result was.

But I wasn't talking about the previous result, everyone knows that if you flip a coin you have 50/50 chance it will land on heads or tails. What I was saying is that if you flip a coin 20 times there are 20/20 chances that each flip will land on heads.

The actual probabilty of the coin landing on heads 20 times would be 1000/1000. Each flip gets a 50/50 chance to land on heads, after flipping it 20 times and it landing on heads everytime you just beat the odds.

Hey it's actually my bad Seraphina, because I got my point twisted the above was the point I was originally trying to get across.

But if the coin lands on it's edge, you can't measure the probability, because you can't measure the edge of a circle.

As for what Mowo said. Well Mowo lets say you drop a coin in box, let say at the same exact time you drop the coin that the coin splits in half. Part of the coin lands on heads and part of the coin lands on tails, that one coin you just dropped now has two outcomes instead of one.

What about splitting atoms? Ill give you some time to think about it, cause even if you don't well I do because it's now my bedtime. I will try tor respond within a couple of days. thumbsup.gif

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the part about chaos theory I find difficult to swallow is the romanticism.

For example, the earlier analogy referring to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand being directly responsible for World war II. Although this was technically the 'straw that broke the camels back', the fact is that Europe was a tinderbox at the time. If it hadnt have been that which started it, something else would have.

for instance, if Hitlers father hadnt have got passionate on that particular night, or that particular sperm hadnt fertilized the egg, Nazism may never had occurred.

even though nature does contain some randomness, there are more powerful forces at work. Human nature/animal behaviour and the laws of physics.

You could hypothesize that if you went on a killing spree in a supermarket, you could affect a major piece of history. But the fact is that if you are not a knife wielding maniac by nature, then this probability will never occur.

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omg, i love this thread...Hmmmm it almost hurts the head lol...Determinism is what I believe. It is as though God makes us feel like we have freewill but all the while, we dont...Say for instance in ab earlier example in the thread someone said they can choose to go to the 8 10 train or 8 30...ya you can choose...say you choose 810, God or whatever greater being is out there, had already forseen your decision...

If you have seen the matrix movie, cause and effect is true, no matter how much you deny, you can try and tell yourself its not but it is. If i do something, there maybe be many outcomes in a situation, but the outcome I choose is already known to God. This whole universe's time has already been mapped out, otherwise predictions, psychics, etc would not exist.

No matter how much you dont like the idea, your life is in the hands of someone more powerful...your creator, and your destroyer. Freewill is an illusion.

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