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Telekinesis: Fact or Fiction?

109 posts in this topic

Ziggy Stardust vs Flame Dragon

This is a formal 1 vs 1 debate, full details on how the debate system works can be found in our Debates FAQ. The debate will begin with an introductory opening post from each participant followed by 4 body posts and finally a conclusion.

The computer has randomly chosen Flame Dragon to post first.

Ziggy Stardust is arguing in favour of Fiction

Flame Dragon is arguing in favour of Fact

Once the debate is complete the thread will be open to member comments.

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Introduction

This is just my quick intro: Over the years many have marvelled over the unexplained ablities of others. Telekinesis is one as a fact is debated constantly fact or fiction, in my later posts i will try to give you points in which will convince you the wonders of the human body.

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Introduction

Telekinesis - the professed ability to directly influence physical matter with nothing but the mind. Those who claim to posess this 'power' (usually children and adolescents) are often labelled as arrogant, delusional attention seekers, or just plain frauds. Do they deserve to be banished by skeptics? Is there, in the entire history of humanity, a single formally documented instance of this phenomena? In the posts that follow I will lay out the cold hard facts, and explain why if Telekinesis did indeed exist, it would have been scientifically proven a long time ago.

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My opponent has given points which any person with a good level of intellect will agree, but i say what if. What if we put aside logic and try to understand that there are still unexplained parts of this world, for example the existence of god. Not wanting to stray off the topic, but many have said that "god does not exist" when countless times they have been baffled by the wonders of "god". In Africa there was a documentary on a priest that died and came back three days later, I cannot remember his name, but how ever also leading to a man by the name of Prahlad Jani has lived without food or fluids for 65 years! scientists themselves have done tests and were amazed. The following is the exact extract on what I have researched to you, the people that we "humans" are more than we think.

"I feel no need for food and water," states Prahladbhai Jani, a seventy-six year old Indian ascetic who lives in a cave near the Ambaji temple in the state of Gujarat. Mr. Jani claims that he has not had food or fluids to drink for the last sixty-five years. At the age of seven years he left home in search of spiritual unfoldment. Jani states that at the age of eleven years he was blessed by a goddess. He claims that since that blessing he has gained his sustenance from nectar that filters down through a hole in his palate, and has not passed urine or stools since then. Mr. Jani explained, "I get the elixir of life from the hole in my palate, which enables me to go without food and water." Almost daily Mr. Jani enters a state of Samadhi characterized by extreme bliss and enormous light and strength. He says that he has never experienced medical problems. He says that he did not speak for a period of forty-five years.

In November 2003, after over a year of coaxing, Prahlad Jani was finally persuaded to participate in a scientific research study. A medical research team of twenty-one specialists, headed by Dr. Sudhir V. Shah, had Mr. Jani under twenty-four hours of observation for ten days at the Sterling Hospital in Ahmedabad. The team's research expertise included cardiology, neurology, urology, gastroenterology, ophthalmology, renal function, pulmonary function, ENT analysis, psychiatry, general medicine, and other specialities. A series of investigations were done on Mr. Jani in each of these areas according to a pre-determined protocol, and additional tests were carried out as per suggestions of the team. At the conclusion of their intensive investigations the team's doctors were left with an unexplained mystery, unable to disprove Mr. Jani's claims.

Mr. Jani was initially kept in ICU for the first twenty-four hours. For the next nine days he was kept in a specially prepared room with a sealed-off toilet and a glass door. The room was also equipped with video surveillance to continuously monitor Mr. Jani. Additionally, staff persons were assigned to stay in the same room with Jani round-the-clock to make sure that he did not eat, drink, or pass urine or stool.

To assure researchers of no possible intake of water, Mr. Jani agreed he would not bathe during the medical investigation. Mr. Jani was permitted a small measured quantity of water to use as a mouthwash. He then spat the water into a beaker to verify that none had been drunk. An ultrasound, which was made of Mr. Jani's bladder twice daily, indicated that there was urine accumulation, which subsequently decreased on its own without passing.

At the end of the ten days of observation, the team of doctors verified that Prahladbhai Jani had not taken food or drank fluids. (The average person cannot survive without water for more than four days.) The team concluded that Mr. Jani's health had not deteriorated during this study. Also, according to the hospital's deputy superintendent, Dr. Dinesh Desai, "A series of tests conducted on him show his body mechanism is that of a normal person." Mr. Jani's survival without food or fluids remains one of those unexplained mysteries.

The following are excerpts from the research team's concluding report:

1. The protocol was strictly adhered to.

2. Mr. Jani had not passed or dribbled urine during these 10 days.

3. He has not taken anything by mouth or by any other routes not even water for 10 days.

4. All his parameters remained within the range determined by the committee.

5. He has shown evidence of formation of urine, which seems to be reabsorbed from his bladder wall. However, at present the committee does not have any scientific explanation for the same but the help of senior scientists and medical personnel of the country is being taken for the same.

We are surprised as to how he has survived despite above particularly without passing urine for 10 days and remaining generally physically fit. However, it should be made very clear that we have confirmed the claim over 10 days only and we as scientists and responsible doctors cannot say anything regarding validity of the claim of his sustaining without food, drinks, urination and excretion of stools over several years.

Dr. Sudhir V. Shah (Consultant Neurophysician, Sterling Hospital/Associate professor of neurology at K. M. School of PGMR, Ahmedabad) headed the research panel of doctors who performed this study. I am deeply grateful to Dr. Sudhir V. Shah for providing the Case Summary of this study along with the photos of Mr. Jani. To view the Case Summary of Mr. Jani in its entirety please go to: P. Jani Medical Report.

Another similar research study, also headed by Dr. Sudhir V. Shah at Sterling Hospital, was conducted on Hira Ratan Manek. Mr. Manek claimed not to have eaten since 1995. Mr. Manek was kept under scientific observation round-the-clock for 411 continuous days. During this time Mr. Manek subsisted only on boiled water. This study also left researchers baffled. Dr. Sudhir V. Shah kindly provided a copy of his article about this study which was published in Gujarat Medical Journal – March 2001. To view this report online please see: Mr. Manek Medical Report. So my viewers if you want to see more on this topic please visit the following URL: http://www.amazingabilities.com/amaze5a.html

I hope you enjoyed this post

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The study above is a remarkable example of human endurance, which is no doubt the result of extraordinary biological aberrancy. However it does not provide suppport for Telekinesis.

If Telekinesis existed it would be extremely easy to prove. Empirical evidence, properly documented in accordance with scientific method, can be published in any country at any time. The fact that the test would be under 'scientific' conditions would not hinder the self-professed telekinetic's skill in any way; it would simply mean that there would be no way for trickery or illusionist techniques to be used. Once published, the study would provide irrefutable evidence for Telekinesis. So why, in the thousands of years that people have claimed to possess this ability, has this not happened? Well, it's for the same reason that nobody who claims to be able to summon undead pig-monsters has had their ability documented. It can't be documented under controlled conditions. Why? Because it isn't real. It's a farse dreamed up by people who need to feel different and special.

People may argue: "Well, there is more to the world than science can prove. Consider God, for example. He can't be proven, but could still exist." This is true; God could exist. God is a non-physical deity, God is ethereal, so in theory, God could still be in existence despite our inability to prove it. However, Telekinesis is so far from the idea of God, it's a joke to mention them in the same sentence. Telekinesis professes the ability to move and manipulate physical objects. Unlike God, who can't be seen, Telekinesis can be seen by all - it is an ability which influences physical matter. I say again - was Telekinesis an actuality, everyone would be aware of its existence, and probably use it themselves. It is simply too farfetched a claim to slip through the fingers of science like God has.

The mystical allure of Telekinetic ability has never ceased to amaze and excite mankind. However, the fact that professed Telekinetic practice has trickled from the imagination into self-professed reality is evidence not of the "power of the human mind" but the willingness of people to believe anything which appeals to them - even if it has absolutely no verifiable evidence to support it. The internet, a place where wild claims can be made unchallenged at leisure, is overflowing with people who profess Telekinetic ability - yet in the physical world - the real, tangible reality of life, there is not only a single documented incidence. Go figure.

Edited by Ziggy Stardust

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My opponent may say that telekinesis is easy to prove, i will tell you certainly i believe so as well, although in my final post i will not give you a listed post please go to this URL: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6425599/Telekinesis-1 this is link to teach you on Telekinesis and the chakra system. This is not false, I my self have praticed the chakras and found results. To Ziggy stardust "BEAT THAT"

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An instruction manual on how to perform Telekinesis is not proof of Telekinesis. It's the same as providing a manual on how to summon undead pig-monsters in order to support the existence of pig-summoning.

The document my opponent has provided opens with "The author did not learn Telekinesis from the reading of a document, nor was the author taught Telekinesis. Literally how the author learned Telekinesis is not important to discuss. The reason is that you may not be able to learn Telekinesis from the same source of practice." Instantly, the document puts its tail between its legs; it doesn't promise Telekinetic ability, because, obviously, no Telekinetic ability will come as a result of reading the document. It also evokes self-incrimination within the reader; it says "the reason you may not be able to learn Telekinesis" in order to make the reader blame themselves when they get no results as opposed to the document. Self-professed Telekinetics often say "I don't need to prove anything to you, just learn how to do it and see for yourself" and, naturally, when we fail, we are expected to blame our own inadequacy, whilst the 'psychic' (in this case Flame Dragon) assures us that it worked for him.

The document also says "Within the time writing this document, the author searched for Telekinesis documents to use for reference. Unfortunately, no good references could be found." In this instance I thank thank the author for being honest about the non-existence of viable Telekinesis references. Overall, the document is a good read - but only if you have a colourful imagination.

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my opponent may say that the booklet does not prove telekinesis, but I beg to differ. Many say that we are energy beings and both negative and positive energy affects us in different ways. You may ask how is this relevant to telekinesis? Well i continue, there are seven chakras in the body. These are centers of energy which operate at a different frequencies and affects different functions of the body. When one balances there chakras it is possible to learn "psychic abilities" just as ancient sages have done before us by using the same method. I totally disagree when my opponent says that the document does not prove telekinesis. Although i am not a master of Telekinesis i can tell you the effects of chakra are quite real and many will find that when you balance your chakras and your body comes it perfect harmony its amazing. (try it) The book let also speaks about psi balls, many have also proclaimed to have made psi balls like myself, are we all mad? Is your knowledge false, are all your experiences just imagination? I don't think so. The chakras are an amazing gift from god, with this you can speak to your spirit guides, what are these spirit guides you ask? Well have you heard of the guardian angel that always with you well spirit guides is just another name for them. With the chakras all these things are possible. Even clairvoyance is possible with the chakras as well as many other things. Have you ever heard the phone ring before it actually rings and sometimes know who was calling? Well the chakras work different in everyone some people are more balanced than others never the less almost everyone has experienced something "weird" in their life time. Well that all folks good bye 4 now.

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there are seven chakras in the body. These are centers of energy which operate at a different frequencies and affects different functions of the body. When one balances there chakras it is possible to learn "psychic abilities" just as ancient sages have done before us by using the same method.

Chakras are an unfounded esoteric concept, and most posit that their existence is limited to the psyche.

I totally disagree when my opponent says that the document does not prove telekinesis.

How does a document which calls itself a manual on telekinesis, prove the existence of telekinesis? Below is a brief manual on how to perform levitation.

1. Sit down and relax.

2. Activate your heart chakra

3. Say "In the name of Grishnev, allow me to float"

4. Repeat

Do the above instructions prove the existence of levitation? No, they are farsical fiction. Like the above, the document gives no actual evidence for telekinesis. How is that proof?

Although i am not a master of Telekinesis i can tell you the effects of chakra are quite real and many will find that when you balance your chakras and your body comes it perfect harmony its amazing. (try it) The book let also speaks about psi balls, many have also proclaimed to have made psi balls like myself, are we all mad? Is your knowledge false, are all your experiences just imagination?

It is to be expected that you hurriedly reject any notion that your beliefs have been brought about by subjective validation, whilst embracing the farfetched concept of telekinesis with open arms. Only time will remedy your delusion; with age, you will look back on the days you thought you had powers and chuckle at the unparalleled complexity of the human mind, and its willingness to be fooled. I did.

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Dear readers, i am amazed that such an itelligent opponent will say something of the lesser mind. Chakras cannot (at least I and others believe so)

be explained through the physical aspsect. The chakras exist in the subtle body and there fore it is unseen energy that cannot be examined by the human eye. Hoever there are tools which are given to help us control these centers of energy. He said that it is facial fiction, but one must try to look deeper into spirituality and discover that all is not of the fleash but spirit.

It like i told you that god does not exist, i am sure many of you belive in god as i do, it may be truth that science has not proved the existance of god, but why does science dictate what is real and what is not? many of us have had hard times and god interviened and assisted us in many financial problems that was not possible to come out of or some other issue that you thought was too much to face. Did we just "magically" jusmp out of our problems. i think not, my opponent keeps on trying to convice you to only trust logic i day trust what you see but in moderation.

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my opponent keeps on trying to convice you to only trust logic i day trust what you see but in moderation.

How can we trust what we see if you're talking about is an unseen energy? In the case of Telekinesis, I have never seen any incidence of the phenomena ever occuring, and despite much searching, have never seen a single documented incidence either.

If Chakras, like God, cannot be explained through the physical aspect, that is fine. In fact, for the sake of argument I will consider it. But Telekinesis is not "of the spirit." Telekinesis is not unseen. It is the manipulation of physical objects. If Telekinesis existed, it could be seen by all. Arguing the existence of unseen energies in order to prove Telekinesis is absurd.

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With four main body posts from both sides its time now to wrap up this debate with your conclusions.

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My opponent clearly misunderstood what i meant, or just trying his best to throw me off balance. Never the less i shall continue.

My opponent stated before that a booklet on how to use telekinesis does not prove its existence, i understand if meant that the booklet could be false, but i clearly stated i my self have done chakra meditations and have seen results. my main purpose is to try and open your mind on the aspect. How can one want remain narrow minded (no insults to anyone who reads this just a statement). For example some say aliens do not exist, for many who is deep into science should know that the universe is quite large. How can we be the only form of life in this vast universe. Have every one who said that they saw mysterious objects are either lying, crazy or just want their 15minutes of fame. Come on, I urge you to take into consideration the possibility of Telekinesis. When my opponent made a big laugh at the mantra or incantation as one may call it, of the heart chakra "In the name of Grishnev, allow me to float"

one may say what nonsense! but i will tell you that is by this same nonsense ancient sages of India, Africa and china and other places have performed these amazing acts berfore even a skeptic's eye. They, at least some of them tested and proven it reality although unexplained. So my viewers what is so wrong in saying "this can be real" what is wrong with practicing the chakra for yourself and see. So to my conclusion Telekinesis is not fiction but actually an unexplained fact of this world.

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A non-belief in Telekinesis is not narrow-mindedness. It is simply rationality. I have never seen any proof, study, documentation, or unexplained event which even began to provide support for the existence of Telekinesis. How is thereby choosing not to believe in it narrow-minded? Were I to see Telekinesis performed before my very eyes and still discount it, that would be narrow-mindedness. Until that day, I insist on taking a logical approach, rather than living a lie. There are a few things wrong with saying "this can be real." If Telekinesis existed, we would know it was real by now. Let's live in reality. My opponent urges us to be open-minded, because that is the only way Telekinesis can be believed; if a person can maintain unfounded, unquestioning belief. His anecdotal evidence is insufficient, and his asking for us to learn Telekinesis in order to prove it to ourselves is hardly grounds for a proper argument. He calls Telekinesis 'fact' but how can it be fact if it is unverified? At the end of this debate, we are much the same as when we began; there remains no evidence or adequate arguments for the existence of Telekinesis and thus, until such evidence is found, those who claim to be able to perform it should not be believed. Thank you to my opponent.

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Ok that's the debate complete and this thread is now open to member comments.

Thanks to both our participants for taking part. :tu:

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Thanks to Flame Dragon and Ziggy Stardust for the debate........

How can we trust what we see if you're talking about is an unseen energy? In the case of Telekinesis, I have never seen any incidence of the phenomena ever occuring, and despite much searching, have never seen a single documented incidence either.

It is evident that if telekinesis is a reality, it is a area of human experience that is not the 'norm'...(in this day and age?)

Does the ability exist? If it does, can only 'special' people exibit it? Or is it a skill that, given the right education and circumstances,

we could ALL do?

Ziggy....I don't know how much searching you have actually done....for documented evidence. Just for starters...I found this within

a minute or two......

link...5th DIMENSION - MIND OVER MATTER (TELEKINESIS) (6:53)

Maybe you don't class this as admissible?

If not, could you explain what level of 'proof' you would desire?

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It is to be expected that you hurriedly reject any notion that your beliefs have been brought about by subjective validation, whilst embracing the farfetched concept of telekinesis with open arms. Only time will remedy your delusion; with age, you will look back on the days you thought you had powers and chuckle at the unparalleled complexity of the human mind, and its willingness to be fooled. I did.

When looking at any subject, a bit of research never goes amiss.

I've just taken a look at both of your profiles. Flame Dragon says they are 17 years old.

Ziggy Stardust says they are 19 years old.

I find the bolded, in the quote above, extremely puzzling, coming from a 19 years old...... :blink:

What's all that about?

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I have to agree that if it could be proved it would have been proved by now.

Most of the time it ends up with those making the claims they have some psychic ability falling to the I don't have to prove anything to you excuse , or I will show you, but you have to pay this and that much and come over here to my country. :hmm:

Edited by chaoszerg

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There has never been one real scientifically validated scrap of evidence to support TK. It no different than magic. They both don't exist.

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http://paranormal.about.com/od/telekinesis.../a/aa031703.htm

Uri Geller. Geller is one of the most well-known "psychics" who has publicly demonstrated feats of psychokinesis: spoon and key bending have become almost synonymous with Geller's name. Although many skeptics and magicians consider his metal-bending performances nothing more than adroit sleight-of-hand, Geller has allegedly shown that he can manifest the effects over great distances and in multiple locations. On a British radio show in 1973, after demonstrating key bending to the astonishment of the host, Geller invited the listening audience to participate. Just minutes later, phone calls began pouring into the radio station from listeners all over the UK reporting that knives, forks, spoons, keys and nails began to bend and twist spontaneously. Watches and clocks that had not run in years began to work. It was an event whose success surprised even Geller and thrust him into the spotlight.

Some magicians may be able to duplicate some of these effects, but there may be legitimacy to this telekinetic phenomenon. In April, 2001, University of Arizona psychology professor Gary Schwartz conducted a "spoon-bending party" at which about 60 students were able to bend spoons and forks, with varying degrees of success, seemingly with the power of their minds.

I think there must be some kind of particular focus and belief that enables people to do telekinesis.

Tapping into an area of the brain that might not get much exercise....?

And group activities focusing on it...probably increase the chances of success..(see quotes above)

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Ziggy....I don't know how much searching you have actually done....for documented evidence. Just for starters...I found this within

a minute or two......

link...5th DIMENSION - MIND OVER MATTER (TELEKINESIS) (6:53)

Maybe you don't class this as admissible?

If not, could you explain what level of 'proof' you would desire?

:lol:

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:lol:

Would you care to expand on................ :lol:

This is the formal debate section, after all.

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Nice debate Ziggy and Flame Dragon. :tu:

However if I were only to go by the arguments presented here and decide on only that, then I would have to tip my hat to Ziggy. His arguments were thoughtful and well presented and for me, it tipped the scales in his favor.

I will admit however, that I am biased because I'm skeptical of TK myself, but that played no role in my decision to award Ziggy with the win. JMO :tu:

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Nice debate Ziggy and Flame Dragon. :tu:

However if I were only to go by the arguments presented here and decide on only that, then I would have to tip my hat to Ziggy. His arguments were thoughtful and well presented and for me, it tipped the scales in his favor.

I will admit however, that I am biased because I'm skeptical of TK myself, but that played no role in my decision to award Ziggy with the win. JMO :tu:

I'm with Flame Dragon.....I felt that they put real effort into creating the ground-work for accepting that telekinesis was a live possibility/fact.

Whereas Ziggy Stardust just repeated variations on..."I haven't seen any evidence."

I also thought that Ziggy used below the belt tactics....when using Flame Dragon's age against them....kind of 'pat-pat' on the head...

'you'll grow up and learn' type of thing. And THEN it turns out that Ziggy is claiming to be all of 19 years old on his profile !

I think that sly digs and repeated demands for proof...is the basic formula to most sceptics arguements....

(but as you can see....I am not above the sly dig myself..... :P )

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I think that sly digs and repeated demands for proof...is the basic formula to most sceptics arguements....

Umm skeptics do require proof, they dont just believe things because it sounds cool.

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