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Who would make a better president of the USA?

8 posts in this topic

sqlserver vs AROCES

This is a formal 1 vs 1 debate, full details on how the debate system works can be found in our Debates FAQ. The debate will begin with an introductory opening post from each participant followed by 8 body posts and finally a conclusion.

The computer has randomly chosen AROCES to post first.

sqlserver is arguing in favour of Obama

AROCES is arguing in favour of Whomever he may choose, I suppose McCain

Once the debate is complete the thread will be open to member comments.

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Introduction

Economic policy is the first major issue that I think Obama is inferior over McCain.

We can go back and forth on each policy, but here is the key.

Obama has been campaiging about a tax increase on the rich and McCain is against it. AND YET, Obama said it himself that if the economic condition does not get any better he would suspend any tax increase. Go figure.

Second, as normal Democrats always have promise that they will spread the wealth of the country. May sound really nice, but realistically how will spreading the wealth of the country prevent the increase in the cost of living? I have stated many times that cars, Big screen, food, housing, clothing became affordable not because the Democrats was able to increase the pay of everyone but thru advance and efficient manufacturing, trading and sound policies that helps manufacturers and corporations.

Third, Foreign policies. Obama is very conscious of our image around the world, I would not want a President who is more concern about image than what is needed to protect the United States from it's enemies.

Edited by Saru

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Introduction

Oh hello.

I'm typing this as I have the phillies game in the background, but I'll do my best.

Let me break my post into these major sections:

1. Tax/Economics Policies

2. Foreign Policy

3. Civil Liberties

4. Energy Policies

5. Experience

At the end I will summarize my position with bolded points.

I think we're good here, right? If there's any issue/whatevers that you would like to bring up that I have not, by all means, go ahead.

1. Tax Policies

I strongly support Obama's tax policy.

First, lets get the facts straight. Take a look at this very excellent graphic by the Washington Post:

linked-image

Source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8060900950.html

Some other key facts:

1. McCain supports an additional 170$ billion a year in tax breaks for large corporations: $3.8 billion for the 5 largest oil companies every year.

For complete numbers, sources, and calculations, see:

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issu...pdf/oil_tax.pdf

2. Obama will cut taxes for about 98% of American families.

See:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/mo...deceptions.html

3. Obama will only raise taxes for those making above approximately 600,000$ per year.

So, I'm pretty sure we can agree that Obama is raising taxes on the extremely wealthy, top 2% of Americans, and for everyone else, he is lowering them, or keeping them the same.

4. Obama will specifically raise taxes on corporations who are outsourcing large numbers of jobs.

Why will Obama's Plan work better then McCain's?

A. Quite simply, the Oil Companies McCain is giving so much to are history. Supporting Oil companies in a time when we should be switching from fossil fuels is backwards.

B. The most important part of the American economy is the middle, poorer, and upper-middle classes. This is the vast majority of people. If raising taxes on the extremely wealthy brings in more taxes then raising them on everybody, then that plan will better the economy.

C. Obama will raise taxes on outsourcing companies, making it more profitable to give more jobs to Americans. This can only help the economy.

Now, on Economics. Obama's plan summarized:

Lower taxes for 98% of Americans, get more jobs to Americans instead of over seas, support American-based jobs and advances in alternative energies, which will get the economy flowing again, and most importantly:

End the war, and not start a new one.

In case you haven't noticed, the war is the SINGLE biggest subtracter from the economy.

As of this moment, approximately $589,788,089,532 have been spent towards the war.

http://zfacts.com/p/447.html

This is money that could have been spent repairing and upgrading EVERY school in the country, this money could have funded new scientific research for millennium, this money could have gotten the US a moon base. What this money could have done is um comprehensibly large. And McCain wants to add, add, and add to it. His motto has been "More to the War, less to America".

A war with Iran? A complete disaster.

2. Foreign Policy

A. America is relatively disliked by many world wide. Many ridicule us for backward and outright stupid behavior, generally which has spawned from the religious right.

This is an important issue to fix; Right now, the only people that are p***ed enough to kill Americans are the radical Muslims. If we continue to be the "bad guys" in the minds of the world, we will get less, and less, and less support from the rest of the world.

How many countries do you seriously think would support a US war in Iran?

Obama will fix this. Throughout the debates, and his life, he's remained calm, and fair. He's shown us he's a good diplomat, rather unlike McCain. He specialized in international trade at Columbia. He's traveled the world, and held rallies with strong support in other countries. He sits on 3/4 congressional boards on foreign policy(McCain, in comparison, sits on 1).

B. Obama knows how to handle the terrorism problem, and IslamoFascism; McCain does not.

McCain ACTUALLY ridicules the very idea of diplomacy: He constantly makes fun of Obama's "radical" idea to "unconditionally" use Diplomacy first. Hating, and treating the Islamic world like dirt isn't going to get us anywhere; It's going to get a hell of a lot worse.

C. War with Iran will be the biggest disaster yet.

McCain has chanted "Bomb Iran!" at rallies. An outright war, or even an attack on Iran, would be a complete disaster, for several reasons. First and foremost, it would get everyone p***ed at us, especially radical Muslims. We will be firmly and clearly cemented as the "bad guys".

Where will that end? Who knows? A US city flattened? 2, 3, or possibly 4? Terrorism will explode, and, the rest of the world won't care. The better supplied and supported terrorist movement could get nuclear weapons, from Russia, Pakistan, Iran.

Next, it must be understand the damage this will do to the economy. Even if no ground troops are sent in, an attack would cost billions and billions more. Less tax breaks, less money to America, more to the war.

Instead, Obama will be extremely diplomatic with IslamoFascists, and only use force if absolutely necessary. He will drastically reduce the number of troops in Iraq, and instead focus on small, covert forces in Afghanistan and the entire middle east.

3. Civil Liberties

Here, I give McCain credit: He cares slightly more about our civil liberties then many of his friends on the religious right.

Neither candidate is too good here. Obama's slightly better then McCain. Fortunately, a Democratic majority in the congress, and a Democrat in the white house will greatly help American liberties, even if Obama's record isn't too good.

The Facts:

1. Obama Voted NO on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision.

2. McCain Voted YES on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision.

3. John McCain supports giving the federal government more domestic surveillance power

4. John McCain opposes extending the right of habeas corpus to Guantanamo detainees

5. Obama Co-sponsored the SAFE Act, a bill to amend the USA PATRIOT ACT to place reasonable limitations on the use of surveillance and the issuance of search warrants, and for other purposes.

6. Barack Obama strongly supports extending the right of habeas corpus to Guantanamo detainees

7. Barack Obama strongly supports keeping abortion legal. While Abortion has certain ethical meanings, it is still a RIGHT and a NECESSITY to keep Abortion legal for rape, and severely ill women.

8. John McCain strongly opposes keeping abortion legal.

9. John McCain strongly opposes the principle of equal access to internet bandwidth known as “network neutrality.”

10. Barack Obama strongly supports the principle of equal access to internet bandwidth known as “network neutrality.”

11. Barack Obama strongly supports civil unions for Gay marriages.

12. John McCain opposes civil unions.

13. Barack Obama strongly supports extending federal rights and benefits to same-sex couples.

14. John McCain opposes extending federal rights and benefits to same-sex couples.

(see: http://glassbooth.org)

I think that speaks for itself. Many basic rights, such as Habius Corpus, privacy, homosexual rights, internet neutrality, and abortion are upheld better by Obama then McCain.

4. Energy Policy

Obama's Energy policy summed up:

Support innovations in alternative energy in US based companies, instead of largely foreign based oil companies, which will solve the energy crisis, bolster the economy, and create thousands of jobs for Americans. Decrease use of carbon fuels.

Perfect. McCain? Not so lucky...

He barely knows much at all about alternative energies, and wishes to simply delay the problem until it gets even worse by drilling off-shore. Not to mention, this will destroy the environment some more, of course. Unless people and companies are pressured to switch, nobody is going to.

5. Experience

This is pretty important: POTUS is just about the biggest job you could ever interview for.

Here's my blog post on Obama's Experience. Linking is better then copying and pasting this AGAIN.

http://sqlsserver.blogspot.com/2008/10/oba...experience.html

Summed up:

A. Obama knows a ton about Constitutional Law, US Law, Economics, and ethics, having gone to school, taught at an Ivy League school, and worked in all 3.

B. Obama has more time in a governmental position then Abe Lincoln, George W. Bush, John Edwards, and several others.

C. He knows a lot about foreign policy. He specialized in international relationships at Columbia, has traveled the world extensively, sponsored and co-sponsored bills on foreign policy, and serves on 3/4 boards on foreign policy.

McCain doesn't really know half as much as Obama on the Constitution, Law, Economics, Ethics, and foreign policy. McCain's just kind of sat on the senate and done little in all of his years.

Conclusion

So yeah, that was long. Sorry for the tasteless word choice, and most likely rather nasty grammar, I'm tired. :P

Here's the Conclusion.

Obama's combination of lowering taxes for 98% of Americans, pressuring companies to hire Americans instead of foreign workers, bolstering the economy with Americans making alternative energy sources for Americans to end our dependence on oil, which will also solve the environmental crisis, increase of programs such as healthcare and welfare, not going to war, and ending the current one, using the money saved from the war for American infrastructure and benefit, and diplomatic solutions world wide is an excellent plan.

Cheers,

SQLServer

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Oh hello.

2. Obama will cut taxes for about 98% of American families.

3. Obama will only raise taxes for those making above approximately 600,000$ per year.

Obama just said more than once on the debate tonight that he will raise taxes only to those making $250,000 or more.

So the 98% isn't accurate anymore.

So, I'm pretty sure we can agree that Obama is raising taxes on the extremely wealthy, top 2% of Americans, and for everyone else, he is lowering them, or keeping them the same.

Nope, you have to agree fisrt with Obama for your numbers don't match.

4. Obama will specifically raise taxes on corporations who are outsourcing large numbers of jobs.

Explain then why Obama said he will not raise Taxes on anyone if the economy remains stagnant, well????

Why will Obama's Plan work better then McCain's?

A. Quite simply, the Oil Companies McCain is giving so much to are history. Supporting Oil companies in a time when we should be switching from fossil fuels is backwards.

You can't eliminate Oil for there are still plenty of oil out ther, you can't compete in the world economy unless you find a cheaper source of energy, which if ever one becomes available not only will the United States rely on it.

See, that is the reality against Obama's catering to the bitterness on Oil companies.

B. The most important part of the American economy is the middle, poorer, and upper-middle classes. This is the vast majority of people. If raising taxes on the extremely wealthy brings in more taxes then raising them on everybody, then that plan will better the economy.

Where does job comes from? From taxes or from venture capitalist, investors and intepreneurs?

C. Obama will raise taxes on outsourcing companies, making it more profitable to give more jobs to Americans. This can only help the economy.

And what do you do when other countries do the same and discourage opening of factories here like Hyundai and Honda? What do you do when it cost you more to pay for your phone or certain commodities for the cost of their operation has increase for it can't be outsourced anymore? How do you help those countries you want to trade with and stop their population from illegally migrating to find a job?

In case you haven't noticed, the war is the SINGLE biggest subtracter from the economy.

As of this moment, approximately $589,788,089,532 have been spent towards the war.

We were atttacked and we have enemies who wants to destroy us, now what is your cap in defending the country?

http://zfacts.com/p/447.html

This is money that could have been spent repairing and upgrading EVERY school in the country, this money could have funded new scientific research for millennium, this money could have gotten the US a moon base. What this money could have done is um comprehensibly large. And McCain wants to add, add, and add to it. His motto has been "More to the War, less to America".

A war with Iran? A complete disaster.

Billions have been poured on education and we spend the most of any other country on it and still it is a failure, when will you admit money is not the solution to it?

McCain wants vouchers, parents get sht choice for the better school. That brings competition that always elevates all.

Obama is worried about govts role disappearing in education and wants control of the money instead.

2. Foreign Policy

A. America is relatively disliked by many world wide. Many ridicule us for backward and outright stupid behavior, generally which has spawned from the religious right.

This is an important issue to fix; Right now, the only people that are p***ed enough to kill Americans are the radical Muslims. If we continue to be the "bad guys" in the minds of the world, we will get less, and less, and less support from the rest of the world.

How many countries do you seriously think would support a US war in Iran?

We are not disliked worldwide. It's just the voice of the Socialist and liberals of other country that you want to echoe, not the world.

B. Obama knows how to handle the terrorism problem, and IslamoFascism; McCain does not.

McCain ACTUALLY ridicules the very idea of diplomacy: He constantly makes fun of Obama's "radical" idea to "unconditionally" use Diplomacy first. Hating, and treating the Islamic world like dirt isn't going to get us anywhere; It's going to get a hell of a lot worse.

Obama said he will open dialogue with those who dislike us, what is he going to say???? You would ask such societies that deprive women any rights, bomb public markets, chants deadth to Amercia what is it they want and then what?

C. War with Iran will be the biggest disaster yet.

McCain has chanted "Bomb Iran!" at rallies. An outright war, or even an attack on Iran, would be a complete disaster, for several reasons. First and foremost, it would get everyone p***ed at us, especially radical Muslims. We will be firmly and clearly cemented as the "bad guys".

Where will that end? Who knows? A US city flattened? 2, 3, or possibly 4? Terrorism will explode, and, the rest of the world won't care. The better supplied and supported terrorist movement could get nuclear weapons, from Russia, Pakistan, Iran.

Next, it must be understand the damage this will do to the economy. Even if no ground troops are sent in, an attack would cost billions and billions more. Less tax breaks, less money to America, more to the war.

Instead, Obama will be extremely diplomatic with IslamoFascists, and only use force if absolutely necessary. He will drastically reduce the number of troops in Iraq, and instead focus on small, covert forces in Afghanistan and the entire middle east.

Do you want then to listen to the Islamofacist and be willing to give and take?

Edited by AROCES

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Outside posts removed

Can I remind other members not to post in someone else's debate thread until after it has finished.

Thank you.

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Hello again.

Obama just said more than once on the debate tonight that he will raise taxes only to those making $250,000 or more.

So the 98% isn't accurate anymore.

That's true of independant couples, aka all non-families. Because the burden of a family eats up income, he gives larger tax breaks to families.

This translates to about 95% of independant couples.

Hence, the 98% of FAMILIES is still correct. His position hasn't changed. After all, why should it? It has been endorsed by several important economists, including the 2008 Economics Nobel Lareaute, past winners of the prize, The Economist, and many prominent(and conservative) Economists.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ress=103x390753

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/25/84...0290/242/503167

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/01/31/...-endorse-obama/

http://writechic.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/...s-barack-obama/

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Influent..._Endorses_Obama

Even among Republican Economists Obama is ahead:

http://readerrant.capitolhillblue.com/ubbt...mp;Number=79423

Explain then why Obama said he will not raise Taxes on anyone if the economy remains stagnant, well????

Can you please link to the exact spot in a transcript of the debate where he said that?

You can't eliminate Oil for there are still plenty of oil out ther, you can't compete in the world economy unless you find a cheaper source of energy, which if ever one becomes available not only will the United States rely on it.

See, that is the reality against Obama's catering to the bitterness on Oil companies.

Lol, what? OBAMA is the candidate to find this cheaper source of energy! His plan evolves around putting huge amounts of funding into making cheap alternative energy, which is available, by American companies, with American workers, made for Americans and the world.

Obama and Biden plan to create 5 MILLION new jobs in high tech alternative energies in America.

(see http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#invest-for-jobs)

Where does job comes from? From taxes or from venture capitalist, investors and intepreneurs?

Thousands, and possibly millions, of jobs will open up once Obama makes it cheaper to use American labor, not foreign labor.

And what do you do when other countries do the same and discourage opening of factories here like Hyundai and Honda? What do you do when it cost you more to pay for your phone or certain commodities for the cost of their operation has increase for it can't be outsourced anymore? How do you help those countries you want to trade with and stop their population from illegally migrating to find a job?

Obama will not be discouraging sending jobs over seas, instead, he will be encouraging keeping them here.

He is going to Reward companies which use American labor.

Thus, the average price of goods will not go up at all. What will happen is that American factories and companies will be just as profitable and cheap as outsourced ones were previously.

See:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#invest-for-jobs

You also missed a crucial point: All of Obama's plan will be executed at the same time.

Thus, when companies switch to American labor, everyone will have more to afford slightly more expensive products as they will get significant tax breaks, and everyone will have more money from the rising economy and jobs. Then, you take away all of the money being wasted on an over-done war, and use it to build more efficient factories and infrastructure for everyone. This too will add thousands, if not millions of new jobs to the market. All of this will combine to bring America to the top economically, diplomatically, technologically, and environmentally.

We were atttacked and we have enemies who wants to destroy us, now what is your cap in defending the country?

Wait. We were attacked, and then we went to war with people who had nothing to do with it.

Defending the country will be done with far, far, cheaper elite covert forces acting in the middle east to silently stop terrorists. This will be more efficient, cheaper, and it will work better. It will end the war, and we will stop being the "bad guys".

Billions have been poured on education and we spend the most of any other country on it and still it is a failure, when will you admit money is not the solution to it?

Obama is not going to just "throw money at it". Obama is going to throw out the No Child Left Behind act, and get schools to seriously start focusing on Science and Math, and have serious standards for competing in the world. He's going to help kids get ready at an early age, and reward teachers based on their quality of teaching.

See:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/

And, educational vouchers will be a disaster.

The thing is, government run schools are not the problem. The foreign students that are doing so much better then ours go to government run schools in their countries at the relatively same ratio.

The problem lies with the anti-intellectual movement, which has particularly spread in kids. In the US in many schools(private ones, too) it is considered bad to be smart, or hard working, and students that are so are loathed.

Ending the anti-intellectual movement with a return to intellectual values is truly the only way to fix the problem.

We are not disliked worldwide. It's just the voice of the Socialist and liberals of other country that you want to echoe, not the world.

Sorry, but all the facts disagree.

"Nearly three-quarters of those polled in 25 countries disapprove of U.S. policies toward Iraq, and more than two-thirds said the U.S. military presence in the Middle East does more harm than good. Nearly half of those polled in Europe, Africa, Asia, South America and the Middle East said the United States is now playing a mainly negative role in the world."

More than 26,000 random people were questioned for the survey.

See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7012201300.html

Here's another poll, from BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressrele...r/10/poll.shtml

Obama was preferred in all 22 countries polled, at a margin of 4 to 1 on average.

Another:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...ction-2008.html

"Obama received 52% of support worldwide, compared to John McCain's 15%".

World wide EVERYONE is sick of the US Religious Right. They are as big a joke as Creationists, such as Sarah Palin.

Obama said he will open dialogue with those who dislike us, what is he going to say???? You would ask such societies that deprive women any rights, bomb public markets, chants deadth to Amercia what is it they want and then what?

Wait, hold on a second...

A. Republicans wish to deprive woman of the right to an abortion.

B. McCain wants nothing more then to continually bomb Iraq, which has resulted in thousands of civilian deaths.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2008/0702-03.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...=010&sc=743

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_5239.shtml

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

C. McCain and his supporters chant "Bomb Iran!" at Rallies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/04/19/m...l?source=widget

Seems to me McCain and the Republicans aren't all so different from these "Enemies" you speak of. Perhaps they are the enemies of America you refer to?

However, if you are talking about IslamoFascists, instead of these ChristoFascists, then yes, opening dialogue is the ONLY sensible thing to do.

Whether it will work or not, who knows? However, death and war and more hatred is ALWAYS the last option.

Do you want then to listen to the Islamofacist and be willing to give and take?

McCain and the Republicans have already taken too much from the American people, and given too much to the IslamoFascists.

They've taken basic liberties of habius corpus. They've taken our morality, and our rights to basic liberties. They wish to take more. They've taken thousands of innocent lives on both sides in a useless war against the wrong folks. They've taken our tax money, and instead of giving it back to America, spent it on war and oil.

They've given a lot to the enemy, too. They've given more reason to hate us. They've given IslamoFascism stronger support worldwide, and even sympathy.

So, please don't criticize Obama of "giving and taking". Just because Obama is a reasonable and sensible thinker does NOT mean that he will "give in" to IslamoFascist demands.

Conclusion

In conclusion, you didn't really get anywhere with this new post. Most of what you've said has been irrelevant, misinformation, or flat out wrong.

Here's the concluding points:

1. I hope we can agree that Obama's plan WILL cut taxes for all families making below $600,000 in taxes, and independent couples making below $250,000.

McCain will not cut taxes for anyone besides the extremely wealthy, and huge corporations.

2. Obama's economic plan has been endorsed by dozens of famous economists, and the majority of Economists, even Republican ones, on the whole.

McCain is considered weak on the economy, and even admitted he doesn't know much about it himself.

3. Obama will NOT be hurting companies that ship jobs overseas, but instead rewarding companies which keep jobs at home. This way, Americans will get more jobs, companies will make more profit, and the prices will stay the same.

McCain will do nothing here, continuing outsourcing, and more and more Americans will go out of work.

4. Obama plans to solve the economic problems, the environmental crisis, and the energy crisis by funding American based alternative energies, ending dependence on oil, and creating more then 5 million jobs for Americans in the field.

McCain plans to do little more besides drill for MORE oil, which would not solve anything, but instead make every crisis worse.

5. Ending the war, and reasonably not starting a new and useless one will save billion of dollars every month, which Obama will then use to re-build American infrastructure and economy, creating thousands of new jobs.

McCain will continue to funnel money into pointless, expensive wars, and neglect America.

6. Obama will focus on small, covert operations against Terrorists that will be cheaper, subtler, and much, much more effective against Terrorism.

McCain, who still hasn't learned his lessons from Iraq and Vietnam, will continue to funnel troops, money, and resources into a costly and large scale war, and perhaps even another.

7. Obama will help improve American's status world wide by restoring civil liberties, the economy, and helping us get back on top in terms of education, innovation, and standard of living.

McCain will continue the war, fix the wrong "problems" with education, continually hack away at civil liberties, and make the environment and economy worse.

8. You directly lied by claiming that "It's just the voice of the Socialist and liberals of other country that you want to echoe, not the world.", when in fact, several huge polls show the world strongly against ChristoFascism, McCain, and the current US politics.

Cheers,

SQLserver

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* Other members post removed *

As per Saru's post in this thread - this is a formal debate. If your name isn't Aroces or SQLServer - do not post in this thread before the debate is finished.

Tiggs

[Forum Mod Team]

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Hey everyone-

I won't be around again until Monday. AROCES, I wish you the best of luck in your reply, just be mindful that I can't reply back until then.

Cheers,

SQLserver

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