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The Proposer

In the beggining

30 posts in this topic

why do we assume that everything should have a start point,has this ever been witnessed,if you believe things suddenly appeared from nothing,can you explain it.

I think it is more rational to believe that things have always been here,not the individual structures,but the energy,the energy is eternal.

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why do we assume that everything should have a start point,has this ever been witnessed,if you believe things suddenly appeared from nothing,can you explain it.

I think it is more rational to believe that things have always been here,not the individual structures,but the energy,the energy is eternal.

Let's use science instead of theology to point something out - energy does not simply "appear". It must be created.

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you are using theology there,science states energy is transferred,you could say the sun creates energy but it is assumed it comes from energy within the atomic bundles,this energy is stored but it came from somewhere,it didnt just appear in the atomic bundles.

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further I think using science and theology we must trace the energy back to an ultimate source.or at least try to.

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Well... if there is no begining, the implication of your theory is that God does not exist laugh.gif

whistling2.gif

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Well... if there is no begining, the implication of your theory is that God does not exist laugh.gif

whistling2.gif

yes that is where we can seperate the material world from the spiritual word,or there is a permanent freer energy and a temporary arrangement of energy within atomic bundles,therefore the material realm is constantly being created and destroyed,wheras the spiritual realm is permanent

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you are using theology there,science states energy is transferred,you could say the sun creates energy but it is assumed it comes from energy within the atomic bundles,this energy is stored but it came from somewhere,it didnt just appear in the atomic bundles.

Energy IS transferred, but is must be first created.

You don't get my point.

Energy does not simply "appear". It must be created - by God, a battery, a generator, a dog... take your pick.

Point. Capeche?

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yes the ultimate source,can be no other than God.

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Posted (edited)

you are using theology there,science states energy is transferred,you could say the sun creates energy but it is assumed it comes from energy within the atomic bundles,this energy is stored but it came from somewhere,it didnt just appear in the atomic bundles.

you know the way you said that, it really makes it sound like some GOD created energy at the bear minimal level, beyond that if you believe energy has always existed how did it manifest itself? we a post-industrial capatilist planet cannot create, can you give my some clear cut examples of beings EVOLVED before the BEGGINING of the universe to even know they exist?

----

I didnt read but the first 3-4 posts before I made this, Great minds think alike eh? laugh.gif

by the way please quit being sarcastic,The Proposer you complain about how set in our beliefs us spiritual people are, yet you constantly insult batter and otherwise refuse to accept facts?

Edited by Student&Alive

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you are using theology there,science states energy is transferred,you could say the sun creates energy but it is assumed it comes from energy within the atomic bundles,this energy is stored but it came from somewhere,it didnt just appear in the atomic bundles.

you know the way you said that, it really makes it sound like some GOD created energy at the bear minimal level, beyond that if you believe energy has always existed how did it manifest itself? we a post-industrial capatilist planet cannot create, can you give my some clear cut examples of beings EVOLVED before the BEGGINING of the universe to even know they exist?

----

I didnt read but the first 3-4 posts before I made this, Great minds think alike eh? laugh.gif

by the way please quit being sarcastic,The Proposer you complain about how set in our beliefs us spiritual people are, yet you constantly insult batter and otherwise refuse to accept facts?

The only thing I accept are facts dontgetit.gif

the only beings that exist before the material creation are the permanent beings of the spiritual sky.

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The only thing I accept are facts dontgetit.gif

the only beings that exist before the material creation are the permanent beings of the spiritual sky.

And who created them?

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There are two fundamental ideas as to the “beginning on everything”: The Scientific and The Theological.

Scientific: The Big Bang. Think of it as the Cosmic Heartbeat. Basically, this theory states (bare bones here, no technobabble) the universe started as a less than dimensional point containing all energy in the unieverse. It went “BANG” and all this energy expands throughout space, some transforming into matter, some into other forms of energy. But the amount of that energy, taken in its base form, has never changed. Eventually, all this energy will expand to a point break, when it will snap back, like a rubber band, contracting back to that less than dimensional point to await the next “Big Bang.” Repeat. Ad Infinitum.

This theory relies heavily on the concept of infinity. Energy, in whatever form, was never created. It always existed, in the exact same amount, from “time” far beyond anything mortal man can even conceive.

Theological: Because man cannot conceive infinity, he must rely on his own experience, which is that something must be created in order to exist. Therefore, something must have created the universe. OK, God (god, or gods) created the universe. BUT!! Who created God? Isn’t He (they?) just as infinite as the Big Bang?

It is worthy to note, however, that neither of these theories completely addresses the infinity factor. SOMETHING just always was. Period. Whether it be God or energy, it was not created, it just existed, without beginning and, presumably, without end.

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yes the ultimate source,can be no other than God.

There, thank you.

Here's an interesting concept I thought of.

Man has assumed that because there are laws of physics that these physics are predominant and prove higher powers do not exist.

However, as we learn more about science, we find that the laws of physics are not only bent, but on occasion snapped. Not to mention supernatural phenomena, where the laws of physics are wholly ignored.

This makes me think.

In the film The Matrix the world exists with it's physics and whatnot because the machines allow it to exist.

In our world, do physics and sciences exist because God allows it to exist or because everything including God is subject to the same laws?

This raises an alarm - if God created physics and allowed them to exist, that means the world as we know it is a fabrication. That opens of a world of possibilities, including that we are not living in the "real" world, but rather some false one.

The whole notion is hard to get your head around. Our world could be entierly fake. Atoms, evolution, the universe, DNA... all of it could really just be something slapped together to distract us. If this is true, what is the "real" world? Does it have any rules to it, or is it completely without boundary?

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The only thing I accept are facts dontgetit.gif

the only beings that exist before the material creation are the permanent beings of the spiritual sky.

And who created them?

God ,they are permanent.

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There are two fundamental ideas as to the “beginning on everything”: The Scientific and The Theological.

Scientific: The Big Bang. Think of it as the Cosmic Heartbeat. Basically, this theory states (bare bones here, no technobabble) the universe started as a less than dimensional point containing all energy in the unieverse. It went “BANG” and all this energy expands throughout space, some transforming into matter, some into other forms of energy. But the amount of that energy, taken in its base form, has never changed. Eventually, all this energy will expand to a point break, when it will snap back, like a rubber band, contracting back to that less than dimensional point to await the next “Big Bang.” Repeat. Ad Infinitum.

This theory relies heavily on the concept of infinity. Energy, in whatever form, was never created. It always existed, in the exact same amount, from “time” far beyond anything mortal man can even conceive.

Theological: Because man cannot conceive infinity, he must rely on his own experience, which is that something must be created in order to exist. Therefore, something must have created the universe. OK, God (god, or gods) created the universe. BUT!! Who created God? Isn’t He (they?) just as infinite as the Big Bang?

It is worthy to note, however, that neither of these theories completely addresses the infinity factor. SOMETHING just always was. Period. Whether it be God or energy, it was not created, it just existed, without beginning and, presumably, without end.

I think the correct concept would be to realise what is permanent and what is temporary.

i could compare big bang ideas with a tree growing from a seed,the seed is a complex structure and requires external factors for growing,it requires water etc and I would say it requires a creator and designer.so we could assume that the process as always existed(a universal law of nature) but the actuall structure of seed and tree are temporary manifestations

and we dont really know our definitions of infinity,for instance a snowflake can be infinitely random chrystal formation but it cannot become a diamond crystal.

if the aspect of infinity you describe,ie the infinite application of universal law,by the permanent law enforcer.

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yes the ultimate source,can be no other than God.

There, thank you.

Here's an interesting concept I thought of.

Man has assumed that because there are laws of physics that these physics are predominant and prove higher powers do not exist.

However, as we learn more about science, we find that the laws of physics are not only bent, but on occasion snapped. Not to mention supernatural phenomena, where the laws of physics are wholly ignored.

This makes me think.

In the film The Matrix the world exists with it's physics and whatnot because the machines allow it to exist.

In our world, do physics and sciences exist because God allows it to exist or because everything including God is subject to the same laws?

This raises an alarm - if God created physics and allowed them to exist, that means the world as we know it is a fabrication. That opens of a world of possibilities, including that we are not living in the "real" world, but rather some false one.

The whole notion is hard to get your head around. Our world could be entierly fake. Atoms, evolution, the universe, DNA... all of it could really just be something slapped together to distract us. If this is true, what is the "real" world? Does it have any rules to it, or is it completely without boundary?

again this involves seperating the temporary from the permanent,the material manifestation is temporary,the material bodies of the entities are like prison houses for the permanent soul(us).

because we have not accepted that the ultimate enjoyer is God and we are his servers,we have been given a certain amount of free will,to make us realise we are not gods or the real enjoyers.

this world is real,like dreams are real,but it is temporary,our lifetimes are less than a blinking of an eye in the time of the universe,God knows what he is doing and because he loves us he knows the exact punishment we require.

also if you think about it most people like to be cheated,and they will be led by fakes,i think god lets the cheated be cheated so they will learn.

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Eventually, all this energy will expand to a point break, when it will snap back, like a rubber band, contracting back to that less than dimensional point to await the next “Big Bang.” Repeat. Ad Infinitum

The Universe is accelerating outward, and shows no sign of slowing down, or "snapping back" as you might say. I believe this theory is outdated and very,very few astrophysists actually support the notion.

The universe had one beginning point, not multiple. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that the universe will collapse in on itself. The universe definately only had ONE beginning point.

Where did that beginning point come from? The only feasible explanation I can come up with, is God created it from another dimension that exists outside our 4-dimensional universe.

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because we have not accepted that the ultimate enjoyer is God and we are his servers,we have been given a certain amount of free will,to make us realise we are not gods or the real enjoyers.

this world is real,like dreams are real,but it is temporary,our lifetimes are less than a blinking of an eye in the time of the universe,God knows what he is doing and because he loves us he knows the exact punishment we require.

also if you think about it most people like to be cheated,and they will be led by fakes,i think god lets the cheated be cheated so they will learn.

That has nothing to do what I just said.

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Posted (edited)

also if you think about it most people like to be cheated,

To The Prosper. What are you thinking??? Other people like to be cheated??? I dont know anyone like that.And that God lets people be cheated, so they will learn?What if they never knew they were cheated. How old are you?? You state some really bizzare things that seemingly dont relate to the current subject at all. You should really watch what you post. Sometimes your statements just seem to be ramblings just so you can fill up space. And another suggestion, you tend to quote someone else's entire post, taking up alot of room, on the forum. Just quote whats relevant.

Edited by Venomshocker

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Posted (edited)

The Universe is accelerating outward, and shows no sign of slowing down, or "snapping back" as you might say. I believe this theory is outdated and very,very few astrophysists actually support the notion.

The theory is hardly out dated (my standards, I guess, I am old), but I agree that the universe has but a single beginning point. And whether this point was used once or multiple times is irrelevant.

There is absolutely no scientific evidence that the universe will collapse in on itself.

Likewise, there is no scientific proof that it will continue expanding.

The only feasible explanation I can come up with, is God created it from another dimension that exists outside our 4-dimensional universe.

And where did that 4th dimentional energy come from? A fifth dimentional universe? And that from a sixth? Etc...?

And again, who created God that exists beyond all these dimensions?

Infinity has still not been addressed.

Edited by schadeaux

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because we have not accepted that the ultimate enjoyer is God and we are his servers,we have been given a certain amount of free will,to make us realise we are not gods or the real enjoyers.

this world is real,like dreams are real,but it is temporary,our lifetimes are less than a blinking of an eye in the time of the universe,God knows what he is doing and because he loves us he knows the exact punishment we require.

also if you think about it most people like to be cheated,and they will be led by fakes,i think god lets the cheated be cheated so they will learn.

That has nothing to do what I just said.

i am explaining the differences between illusion and reality.

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Likewise, there is no scientific proof that it will continue expanding.

The fact the universe is expanding and actually accelerating while its expanding, is evidence that it will continue expanding.

The 4th dimension in our current universe is time. Before the Big Bang there was no time. Time began when that little point exploded. Outside our 4-dimensional universe there is no time dimension, therefore the things that exist outside our dimension, have the possibility of being infinite. For example like a God or Gods, or whatever you choose to beilieve.

Therefore nothing would have had to create a God, God would always have been there, he would be eternal.

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yes venomshocker it is a fact we like being cheated,we surround ourselves with temporary material goods for comfort,I was answering your qustion about theoretical physics thes are nothing but comforters,we feel comfortable with them,safe,but are they permanent,no,we are just pacifying ourselves being cheated,babies like to suck dummies,do they obtain mothers milk from them ,no,this cheating ourselves goes on all our lives,thats why it is essential we find the real truth of life and stick with it.

sorry about quotes but dont have hang of them yet.

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The universe had one beginning point, not multiple. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that the universe will collapse in on itself. The universe definately only had ONE beginning point.

Where did that beginning point come from? The only feasible explanation I can come up with, is God created it from another dimension that exists outside our 4-dimensional universe.################################How do you know this is the case,I could theorise that the black holes are the multiple points of vthis mechanism,ie that matter is continually sucked in destroyed then recreated,so no exact beggining point regards time and place,these combined beggining and endpoints could be part of a permanent pattern,The Vedas say that Visnu lies down in the causal ocean and the material creation is formed through is pores,i presume he breaths through them,thus destroying and creating.###############################

my reply between marks.

within above quote.

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regarding Time,i think it is only witnessed when acting upon the temporary material structures.,or maybe that could be the defination of time the rate of decay of the temp structures.

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