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The Proposer

proving the obvious

99 posts in this topic

say for example I put a bar magnet behind a piece of plane paper and put Iron filings upon the paper,the magnet creates a pattern,now I wish to prove to someone that the magnet actually exists,but they are so stupid and stubborn they refuse to lift up the paper,they are firmly set in their religeous belief that ,the pattern developed because of the properties of the indepent individual Iron filings due to chance,environmental factors,other filings drifting in and other silly theorys,as I dearly wish them to stop wasting their valuable time,I keep telling them the magnet exists and giving many clear cut ,simple examples why.so if they are unable to accept my examples and are unprepared to look behind the paper I would still like to be of assistance to them,any Ideas on how I can help them understand this simple fact?

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If they are unable to see behind the paper, what makes you so confident that you can?

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because I have read the techniques described and implimented by past paper lifters and I have successfully used these techniques,and viewed the magnet.

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Just because you have a pattern of iron doesn't mean that there is a magnet. Don't you think that the more likely explanation is that an intelligent being put the iron fillings in a pattern? wink2.gif

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I really believe that a lot of people are afraid to look behind the paper because they are comfortable with their theories about the filings,so if they actually see the magnet it will cause great disturbances to their belief systems.

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Just because you have a pattern of iron doesn't mean that there is a magnet. Don't you think that the more likely explanation is that an intelligent being put the iron fillings in a pattern? wink2.gif

of course penguin ,that is correct,the magnet is simply ba tool of the higher being,

like a bucket to a child building sandcastles.

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Posted (edited)

You are jumping to a conclussion there. There is no indication whatsoever that a higher being is involved in the formation of magnetic lines. The only required ingredient to produce the field is the magnet itself. There is a big difference between a sandcastle and the magnetic field. A better comparison will be wind creating sand dunes. No intelligent being neccessary devil.gifthumbsup.gif

Edited by PsychicPenguin

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You are jumping to a conclussion there. There is no indication whatsoever that a higher being is involved in the formation of magnetic lines. The only required ingredient to produce the field is the magnet itself. There is a big difference between a sandcastle and the magnetic field. A better comparison will be wind creating sand dunes. No intelligent being neccessary devil.gifthumbsup.gif

excuse me,the wind is a side effect of the suns activity the sun is a tool of God,or it can be traced back to an ultimate energy source.

im not sure about which came first the magnet or the magnetic field,take dynamic magnets,of which the earth has a shell,now did the magnetic shell exist first and form the material of earth or vicer versa.

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You are jumping to a conclussion there. There is no indication whatsoever that a higher being is involved in the formation of magnetic lines. The only required ingredient to produce the field is the magnet itself. There is a big difference between a sandcastle and the magnetic field. A better comparison will be wind creating sand dunes. No intelligent being neccessary devil.gifthumbsup.gif

there is not a big difference,both are set moulds which form a uniform,same pattern everytime they are applied to the material they are affecting.

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I am assuming that this is a continuation of your argument in the evolution vs creationism. Am I correct?

Magnets attracting iron is a natural process.

Wind creating sand dunes is a natural process.

A child making a sand castle is an artificial process.

Evolution is a natural process.

Creation is an artificial process

So your example on magnetism actualy shows how creationists ignore naturalistic process and attribute the iron powder allignment to a higher being.

The cause of magnetism and ultimate cause is NOT the original problem. Please refrain from changing the topic. As a reminder this is the original topic that you posted.

say for example I put a bar magnet behind a piece of plane paper and put Iron filings upon the paper,the magnet creates a pattern,now I wish to prove to someone that the magnet actually exists,but they are so stupid and stubborn they refuse to lift up the paper,they are firmly set in their religeous belief

So what caused the allignment? Is it magnetism, which is a naturalistic process, or a higher being?

Is magnetism a naturalistic process? (if your answer is no i suggest you go and learn a litle bit about physics).

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you have just defeated yourself ther pengers,you state that the child creates something by a different process than the other things came about including evolution,i presume you believe the child arrived at his present position by evolution ,then your statements can only be incorrect .

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you have just defeated yourself ther pengers,you state that the child creates something by a different process than the other things came about including evolution,i presume you believe the child arrived at his present position by evolution ,then your statements can only be incorrect .

Show me where it is incorrect, using sound logic and reasoing. Also show me how your argument is correct. I can barely understand what you are trying to say. disgust.gif

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you state that a child making a sandcastle is artificial,yet you say evolution is natural,if all aspects of the childs present state arrive naturally through evolution how can his next step of creating the sandcastle be artificial?

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my statement about magnetism wasnt going off topic it was in reply to your assumption that the magnetic field depended on the actual magnet being present,all i was saying is that its a bit chicken and egg,I cannot determine either way.

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Let's define the problem better shall we? I define an artificial process as something that involve intelligence in the creation. This is just the same as saying chemical process is something that involve treatment with chemical reactions. It is true that both intelligence and chemistry are natural, so maybe I should call it artificial and non-artificial instead of artificial and natural.

Now with this in mind:

In the creation of sandcastle there is intelligence involved, which is the intelligence of the child. Therefore sandcastles are artificial. If you find a sand castle on a beach there is a good chance that an intelligent being created it.

Sand dunes, on the other hand, are created by wind. There is no indication that intelligence is involved in the creation of sand dunes. Therefore sand dunes are not artificial.

Going back to our magnetism problem. Is there any intelligence involved in the creation of magnetic lines? Do you have to design the pattern or the pattern just show up with a magnet being present?

And no, your statement about magnetism is not off topic, but your statement about the ultimate cause is.

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dontgetit.gif

still at it but metaphorically ! blink.gif

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I agree with Xeno. This is another way for Proposer to keep the whole Evo Vs Creation thread going. Funny, how you said people are stupid who can't see past the paper. But cmon' don't take us for idiots. We all know what you really meant by starting this thread.

Give it a rest. Not matter how much you think you're right, you're not convincing anyone else. These threads are here to discuss, not push your beliefs, no matter how logical they seem to you. By using metaphorical text.

*SIGH* disgust.gif

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i get it! what proposer is attempting to do is offer an amusing satire on creationist fundamentalism!

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Hey The Prosper. And why do you keep going on, and on about the vedas? You make them sound like they are more historically accurate than the bible and modern science. Are you a hindu? You think hindu gods are behind creation?

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lets just suppose we discover a sandcastle on a desserted beach,we should discuss how it got there and conclude something.

you ignore this when witnessing the design of sandunes.

The wind creates sandunes.

the wind is air movement,due to factors created by the sun(inc earth movement)

the sun exists,ir radiates energy,which goes to creating the sandunes.

the suns energy comes from the breakdown of atomic bundles,trapped energy is realeased,the atomic structures are temporary,whereas the trapped and universal energy appear to be prmanent,now it would advance our knowledge if we could trace the source of this energy.

Big bangs are no good because they would only be a temporary energy store like the atomic bundles,so would be a stopgap conclusion.

Venomshocker.,God is not exclusive to individual religions like the sun no matter what our theorys or beliefs or names for him are,God will remain God,also like the sun it will remain the same regardless of our assumptions

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I agree with Xeno. This is another way for Proposer to keep the whole Evo Vs Creation thread going. Funny, how you said people are stupid who can't see past the paper. But cmon' don't take us for idiots. We all know what you really meant by starting this thread.

Give it a rest. Not matter how much you think you're right, you're not convincing anyone else. These threads are here to discuss, not push your beliefs, no matter how logical they seem to you. By using metaphorical text.

*SIGH* disgust.gif

Why give up on an active topic,it doesnt make sense.

what type of beliefs do you think I am trying to push.thats an offensive remark.

I only seek the truth ,as others do I hope.

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I also suppose that looking at all created man made designs it is correct to assume the work that went into the design and creation,therefore I would have no difficulty in believing that the uniform patterns of a magnetic field definitely have or have had an intelligence behind them.

I in no way can see how these have formed by chance,its like believing the childs bucket,was created by randomness alone.

please try to give proper arguments against these facts then we can progress.

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what facts may i ask? all you have done is manage to repeat what was said in the creation vs evolution thread (eg God did it), just this time, it is thinly veiled through metaphors?

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what facts may i ask? all you have done is manage to repeat what was said in the creation vs evolution thread (eg God did it), just this time, it is thinly veiled through metaphors?

it is not thinly veiled through metaphors,these things are actual physical objects and actual occurences,ie facts.

i'll assume for others benefits that god didnt do it ,then it becomes quite confusing,because the manifestations definitely point away from chance or randomness,so lay your answer on me.

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The Prosper, Do you believe in one God? or, in many gods as supported by the vedas? Like Prajapati, Indra,Dyaus,Aditi and Ushas. Do you think all these gods helped create too?

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