"Who Mined American Copper 5,000 Years Ago?"

[kaiserh]

I am not sure if this was posted before ,could not find it but I think this is very interesting.I have never heard of this before,located Northern Peninsula of Michigan.

this is what Paulina Zelitsky said

the average depth is probably like 20 feet deep for the pit mines, but there were many pit mines that were excavated through solid rock 60 feet down. So, whoever did that obviously had a technology far beyond anything that was known to the native Americans at that time who were not interested in anything more than float copper, copper they picked up off the ground. But this is one of the great - I hate to use the word conspiracy, but it certainly is suppressed evidence that American scholars have known about for more than 100 years that there was a huge copper mining enterprise in upper Michigan that lasted from 3,000 B. C. to 1,200 B. C.

For some 1800 years, beginning abruptly about 3000 BC, some industrious peoples mined ore equivalent to 500,000 tons of copper from Michigan's Isle Royale and Keweenaw Peninsula. Who were these mysterious miners, and what happened to all all that copper? It certainly hasn't been found in the relics of North American Indians. And where was the ore smelted? About all the unidentified miners left behind are some of the crude tools they used to pound out chunks of ore from their pit mines (5000 pit mines on Isle Royale alone). Outside of some cairns and slabrock ruins, there is little to help pin down these miners. Mainstream archeologists attribute all these immense labors to a North American "Copper Culture" -- certainly not to copper-hungry visitors from foreign shores. Admittedly, many copper artifacts have been dug up from North American mounds, but only a tiny fraction of the metal the Michigan mines must have yielded.

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm

I

Edited April 12, 2009 by kaiserh

[crystal sage]

You might find this interesting....

http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html

..... and...

http://www.dayooper.com/CopperCulture.htm

In Michigan Prehistory, as far back as possibly 17,000 years ago, in Michigan's copper area, a prehistoric race or races of people mined and worked copper using primitive methods. Around 10,000 prehistoric Copper miners pits on the South Shore of Lake Superior and on Isle Royale attest to a large and thriving prehistoric culture based on Copper Mining in this area. Relatively little is known about these ancient miners, but, many theories abound regarding this group of prehistoric miners.

Dr Henriette Mertz, in her book, "The Mystic Symbol," (1986) speculates that the ancient Phoenician mariners traveled to Upper Michigan to mine the extremely pure and abundant copper lodes to satisfy the demands of the ancient Egyptians and Greeks. The mines of Sinai, she says had been played out by that time, and those of Crete were too meager. Records spoke of an alien red-skinned people linked with the import of copper and that it took three years for the ocean vessles to return with their copper. Mertz cites tablets found in Michigan with hieroglyphic and cuneiform writing, often dismissed as forgeries, as evidence of later contact with the Mediterranean

[+DieChecker]

It is interesting. I wonder how they came up with the dates and timelines? C-14 dating?

The amount of ore dug out sounds kind of speculative too. There is no way to know how much copper came out of the pit mines. The article says that they used stone tools to dig the pits.

[kaiserh]

You might find this interesting....

http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html

..... and...

http://www.dayooper.com/CopperCulture.htm

thanks for the links ,very interesting,just surprised none talks about it much,not even discovery channel.

[kaiserh]

It is interesting. I wonder how they came up with the dates and timelines? C-14 dating?

The amount of ore dug out sounds kind of speculative too. There is no way to know how much copper came out of the pit mines. The article says that they used stone tools to dig the pits.

it was determind by scientists and engineers,there were tool found but scientists do not think native american had anything to do with this,there is no proof of this.

Scientists and engineers estimate that it would have required 10,000 men 1,000 years to develop the extensive operations carried on throughout the region. It is estimated that 1.5 billion pounds of copper were mined by these unknown people.

[hetrodoxly]

I can't see why it wasn't dug out by native inhabitants? here's a good model.

http://www.greatormemines.info/

[jaylemurph]

I can't see why it wasn't dug out by native inhabitants? here's a good model.

http://www.greatormemines.info/

Because the first rule of pseudo-history is that anybody without white skin is virtually unable to do anything, ever and everything you think they did was actually done by lizard people from Doctor Who or aliens.

--Jaylemurph

[Leonardo]

I am not sure if this was posted before ,could not find it but I think this is very interesting.I have never heard of this before,located Northern Peninsula of Michigan.

this is what Paulina Zelitsky said

the average depth is probably like 20 feet deep for the pit mines, but there were many pit mines that were excavated through solid rock 60 feet down. So, whoever did that obviously had a technology far beyond anything that was known to the native Americans at that time who were not interested in anything more than float copper, copper they picked up off the ground. But this is one of the great - I hate to use the word conspiracy, but it certainly is suppressed evidence that American scholars have known about for more than 100 years that there was a huge copper mining enterprise in upper Michigan that lasted from 3,000 B. C. to 1,200 B. C.

For some 1800 years, beginning abruptly about 3000 BC, some industrious peoples mined ore equivalent to 500,000 tons of copper from Michigan's Isle Royale and Keweenaw Peninsula. Who were these mysterious miners, and what happened to all all that copper? It certainly hasn't been found in the relics of North American Indians. And where was the ore smelted? About all the unidentified miners left behind are some of the crude tools they used to pound out chunks of ore from their pit mines (5000 pit mines on Isle Royale alone). Outside of some cairns and slabrock ruins, there is little to help pin down these miners. Mainstream archeologists attribute all these immense labors to a North American "Copper Culture" -- certainly not to copper-hungry visitors from foreign shores. Admittedly, many copper artifacts have been dug up from North American mounds, but only a tiny fraction of the metal the Michigan mines must have yielded.

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm

I

I've researched this briefly, as it was something I hadn't heard of and found it quite interesting - thanks for posting it, kaiserh.

From what I found, according to the more professional reports of the archaeology, Ms Zelitsky exaggerates somewhat. Most of the pits dug were only a few feet deep, with a few rare exceptions found more than 10 feet deep. Much of the copper was left in situ as the miners had no means of transporting the huge mass copper deposits of many tons, but instead worked small protrusions off the copper lodes by (it appears) heating the small amount of copper and bashing it off with a stone mallet. There is no evidence that 'ore equivalent to 500,000 tons of copper' was removed - in fact there is no evidence that any copper apart from mass copper was removed. No evidence of any smelting furnaces where copper could be extracted from ore and no evidence of any pounding presses where copper grains could be separated from rock (by panning the resultant gravel).

It appears the technology used in the mining effort was entirely neolithic - which would rule out the Phoenicians, Egyptians or any European/Middle Eastern culture being the miners, as all these cultures had attained at least the chalcolithic level of technology in tool and weapon manufacture. According to some early reports (from the 19th Century), the apparent age of trees growing on some of the spoil heaps found would indicate at least some of the mining took place up to maybe 6 -700 years previously - well outside the estimate required for any of the ancient European/Middle Eastern cultures to be involved. Certainly the mining of copper in the region began at a very early date - the official Keneenaw site has it beginning roughly 7000 years ago - but this would not be remarkable for the native inhabitants, especially given the apparent methods used in the mining.

Apart from the unremarkable (if interesting, nonetheless) nature of the activity, I can also see no effort being made to 'hide' this information, it just simply is not as unbelievable (in what seemed to have actually taken place) as the pseudo-historical/conspiracy theorists would have it.

[kaiserh]

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm

I

I've researched this briefly, as it was something I hadn't heard of and found it quite interesting - thanks for posting it, kaiserh.

From what I found, according to the more professional reports of the archaeology, Ms Zelitsky exaggerates somewhat. Most of the pits dug were only a few feet deep, with a few rare exceptions found more than 10 feet deep. Much of the copper was left in situ as the miners had no means of transporting the huge mass copper deposits of many tons, but instead worked small protrusions off the copper lodes by (it appears) heating the small amount of copper and bashing it off with a stone mallet. There is no evidence that 'ore equivalent to 500,000 tons of copper' was removed - in fact there is no evidence that any copper apart from mass copper was removed. No evidence of any smelting furnaces where copper could be extracted from ore and no evidence of any pounding presses where copper grains could be separated from rock (by panning the resultant gravel).

It appears the technology used in the mining effort was entirely neolithic - which would rule out the Phoenicians, Egyptians or any European/Middle Eastern culture being the miners, as all these cultures had attained at least the chalcolithic level of technology in tool and weapon manufacture. According to some early reports (from the 19th Century), the apparent age of trees growing on some of the spoil heaps found would indicate at least some of the mining took place up to maybe 6 -700 years previously - well outside the estimate required for any of the ancient European/Middle Eastern cultures to be involved. Certainly the mining of copper in the region began at a very early date - the official Keneenaw site has it beginning roughly 7000 years ago - but this would not be remarkable for the native inhabitants, especially given the apparent methods used in the mining.

Apart from the unremarkable (if interesting, nonetheless) nature of the activity, I can also see no effort being made to 'hide' this information, it just simply is not as unbelievable (in what seemed to have actually taken place) as the pseudo-historical/conspiracy theorists would have it.

thanks for the nice post ,I found out about this when I was reading a phone interview by Paul Weinzweig, and Paulina Zelitsky about Atlantis found near Cuba.

You've made some excellent points,but I would like to research and know a little more about this.

http://www.tylwythteg.com/articles/cuba.html

Edited April 13, 2009 by kaiserh

[Harte]

thanks for the nice post ,I found out about this when I was reading a phone interview by Paul Weinzweig, and Paulina Zelitsky about Atlantis found near Cuba.

You've made some excellent points,but I would like to research and know a little more about this.

Is this true? Would you really like to learn about this?

If so, read the article here, written by an archaeologist that has worked in Michigan her entire life.

Harte

[+DieChecker]

Is this true? Would you really like to learn about this?

If so, read the article here, written by an archaeologist that has worked in Michigan her entire life.

Harte

Thanks for the link. It backs up my idea that none of the "facts" can be verified. The number of pits, the depth of the pits, the number of people involved, the time involved, the amount of copper per pit, the purity of the copper, all are unknowable variables and any number people put to them is basicaly pulled out of the air.

[legionromanes]

Paulina Zelitsky is not nor has ever been a good source

[kaiserh]

Is this true? Would you really like to learn about this?

If so, read the article here, written by an archaeologist that has worked in Michigan her entire life.

Harte

so all depends on what Susan Martin said ,and the case should be closed ? I am not convinced with her myth and fact explanation.she actually says more about "what is not" then "what it is"

[kaiserh]

Paulina Zelitsky is not nor has ever been a good source

know that now.

[MARAB0D]

Theoretically prehistoric copper mines could belong to the native Americans, as some American civilizations knew copper metallurgy for quite a long time. All Indian tribes entered America either via the land bridge with Eurasia, which existed before the "Great Deluge" some 12,000 years ago or later by ice in cold winters or simply by canoes. Then they were migrating down South, so the Indians of North America were probably among those who arrived later, and the warmer climate areas were already occupied. There could be (and probably was) trade between Northern American Indians and Central American states - I mean in later period of 2000-5000 years ago, so these "recent" mines could well belong to some Mayans or similar tribes, who knew the secret of smelting.

Phoenicians in that period are hardly possible, as we would've known about them crossing Atlantic, however the "Atlantean info" by Plato mentions international trade which seems to be predating Great Deluge, as he says that the ships were sailing between the islands of Atlantis and "other islands" to the "opposite continent" on the other side of the ocean, so he knew about Americas - but he says the trade ceased after Atlantis submerged (also makes sense, as the ancient ships could only sail along the coast line).

I am only speaking hypothetically, as I never read anything proving these mines' existence.

[Harte]

so all depends on what Susan Martin said ,and the case should be closed ? I am not convinced with her myth and fact explanation.she actually says more about "what is not" then "what it is"

I anticipated this. That is why I asked if you really wanted to know - implying (of course) that you really don't.

Whichever you prefer.

Harte

[shaka5]

Because the first rule of pseudo-history is that anybody without white skin is virtually unable to do anything, ever and everything you think they did was actually done by lizard people from Doctor Who or aliens.

--Jaylemurph

lol

[Qoais]

I read most of the link to Susan Martin's summary, and I agree, she said more what was not, than what was. She says women made copper beads. Great. When? She never specifically comes out and gives a time table for anything. Just that the copper is there, and the natives used it. What about the garbage? There supposedly wasn't any garbage found that didn't belong to the natives and their way of life. What if the natives took the product TO the visitor? I've watched the ships being loaded in the harbour in Vancouver, and basically, they can come in, load, and leave and basically, leave not one piece of garbage since the crew didn't get off the ship.

[The Silver Thong]

I'm wondering, has there been any copper arrow or spear heads found that date back 5000 yrs? pots jewlery anything made of copper with the same date match.

[digitalartist]

You might find this interesting....

http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html

Not sure those images are real. The underwater pictures show no disturbance of the plant life that should be there with someone swimming and the shallower pictures do not show ripples in the water fro the person or the water that would be dripping off him. Just my observation.

[legionromanes]

I read most of the link to Susan Martin's summary, and I agree, she said more what was not, than what was. She says women made copper beads. Great. When? She never specifically comes out and gives a time table for anything. Just that the copper is there, and the natives used it. What about the garbage? There supposedly wasn't any garbage found that didn't belong to the natives and their way of life. What if the natives took the product TO the visitor? I've watched the ships being loaded in the harbour in Vancouver, and basically, they can come in, load, and leave and basically, leave not one piece of garbage since the crew didn't get off the ship.

how do you get from

no evidence

to

natives loading western ships

imagination is cool huh, I'd suggest you go back and read the page again with an open mind, it was very clearly aimed at you

Edited April 14, 2009 by legionromanes

[Oniomancer]

One of the biggest problems with this is prior to the construction of the great lakes waterway system, you couldn't just sail up the St.Lawrence and all the way to Michigan. It would require at least two major portages at Lachine rapids and the Niagara escarpment and who knows what else after. Difficult for one small vessel let alone many and nigh impossible for a large deep-water cargo ship, possibly even calling for the construction of new ships at each empasse. Then of course they have to sail all over the great lakes and basically stumble on to Isle Royale and it's copper deposits by accident. After that, they get to start mining. In northern Michigan. Over the course of 2 or 3 winters.

[legionromanes]

One of the biggest problems with this is prior to the construction of the great lakes waterway system, you couldn't just sail up the St.Lawrence and all the way to Michigan. It would require at least two major portages at Lachine rapids and the Niagara escarpment and who knows what else after. Difficult for one small vessel let alone many and nigh impossible for a large deep-water cargo ship, possibly even calling for the construction of new ships at each empasse. Then of course they have to sail all over the great lakes and basically stumble on to Isle Royale and it's copper deposits by accident. After that, they get to start mining. In northern Michigan. Over the course of 2 or 3 winters.

ah well of course then they would have had to be using aircraft

did anyone find any exhausted Atlantean power crystals in Michigan yet ?

[Piney]

The Old Copper Culture in the Great Lakes region was a group of hunter gatherers that existed from about 4,000 B.C. to 1,000 B.C. They started working the copper by knapping it like stone. Although they, nor did the Adena or Hopewell afterword, smelt the copper, they did eventually learn to anneal it with alternate heating and hammering.

The Lake Superior and Isle Royale copper sources were utilized up until the late Middle Woodland Period when the great trade networks of North America collapsed.

Lapiche

[kaiserh]

I anticipated this. That is why I asked if you really wanted to know - implying (of course) that you really don't.

Whichever you prefer.

Harte

yes I do want to know,and I read the entire article,could'nt get much from it,and I am not ready accept this as the only explanation,I do appreciate your post.