Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
Lt_Ripley

Did Jesus think he was God ? or

77 posts in this topic

true !! as did the Pharaohs ! for thousands of years they were thought of as Gods physically...... yet that died out too . all religions do eventually or they get traded up. like baseball cards. Lose their potency. Some faster than others.

in 5000 years the abraham 3 may be gone or nothing more than a whisper in history ... kinda like the shakers .

which three? karaism?essenism?pharaseeism?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
which three? karaism?essenism?pharaseeism?

I meant the big 3 and not the auto industry ....... Judaism , Islam , and Christianity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did Jesus think he was God or was this made up by man ?

Jesus was a Othodox Jew and according to their beliefs about the messiah , which he would have been well aware ....

Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human.

Moreover, Jews find no foundation in the scriptures for such a belief about the messiah. Passages viewed by Christians as indicating a divine messiah (such as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53) are viewed by Jews as speaking of the people of Israel,

Jesus would have been well aware of the above... that God could never become human.

So if Jesus , being a good Jew , wouldn't think himself God why do Christians ?

Good question. Because if you look in the new testiment it clearly states that he is not god.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I understand you .. from the gnostic interpretation. in short we are all gods . no different than Jesus. ...
Hi Ripley, eight bits, Sheri, Dr. D, Gideon Mage, Danielost, and anyone else I may have missed – according to the Bible we are all *potential* Gods. Those people whose human spirit is impregnated with God’s Spirit, have been conceived with the imperishable ‘seed’ of the Spirit of God. These people will be ‘born again’ as immortal spirit beings aka children of God, at Jesus' return … then they will be Gods, as per the Scriptures.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

And

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

The problem is, all humanity has sinned, with the result that:

Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

The ‘Good news’ aka the Gospel, is that Jesus has paid our penalty for us, if we are willing to accept that payment. In that case we will not suffer the second death but have the *potential* to be born into God’s family as God’s children aka as Gods, at Jesus' next coming.

Too simple, maybe? :)

Going by that however worshiping Jesus as God would be like worshiping any other human as God.

not to get into the aspect of Idols either .. or worshiping other Gods ...

but the blending in of gnositism with christianity seems overall at odds.. in it's present form. Jesus may very well have been an Essene then that would make sense. Nazareth did have a large number of Essenes. But at the same time the bible has him following Orthodox Judaism rules and not Essene ( like eating meat) . Maybe he was a mix of both. ?

That's good gnostic thinking, Ripley. :tu:

Ripley -- you ask: but does that fit the Psalm ?

The answer is "No", your ideas do not fit the Scriptures.

A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great assembly;

he gives judgment among the "gods":

2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust

and show partiality to the wicked?

Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;

maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;

deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.

They walk about in darkness;

all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";

you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,

for all the nations are your inheritance

So if he is referring to this as him being God as much as any of us can be , seems we were judged not doing a good job.

and this still doesn't deter from the fact that Jesus was by blood a Moabite which would , according to the OT disqualify him entrance to heaven forever. ( even if Joseph had adopted him as well as some want to argue since Joseph would have been Moabite as well ... same tribe.)

You are right Ripley; Mankind is not doing a good job.

And, no, the fact that Jesus' blood line is Moabite does not disqualify Jesus as you so often have said. Your reasoning has been faulty, that's all.

If you care to discuss any of these points, please do so,

Karlis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello, Karlis

I don't think that Psalm 82 contains material related to the Christian theory of original sin and redemption by death. All of that will come centuries after this psalm was written down.

This psalm is uncontroversially of northern origin, where cosmopolitan exposure to a variety of religious ideas would plausibly shape the psalmist's notion of godhood. On the world stage, there is nothing about being a god that excludes dying or suffering other reversals of fortune. Verse 7 would fit comfortably in the Eddas, addressed to Odin, verbatim.

What sin there is in the psalm is actual sin (verse 2), for which remedial action is needed and available to the living (verses 3 and 4). The basis for that remedial action is, you should pardon the expression, knowledge of good and evil (verse 5).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alexander the Great believed he was a god but that didn't make him one. Viewing this question in the same light, I find little consequence in what Jesus believed or not.

Hello Sherri . . . . long time, no?

OMG, long time is an understatement, are you back posting Dr. D.? I have to say since you left it has been no fun...I sure miss ya old friend....(((HUGS)))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The ‘Good news’ aka the Gospel, is that Jesus has paid our penalty for us, if we are willing to accept that payment. In that case we will not suffer the second death but have the *potential* to be born into God’s family as God’s children aka as Gods, at Jesus' next coming.

that's an opinion , not fact.

another opinion ... Rabbi David Wolpe

The idea that one can be saved only through Jesus is contrary to simple compassion and justice. Judaism teaches that "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." Maimonides writes in a letter that there are non-Jews who "bring their souls to perfection." That is the simple truth that all faiths should acknowledge and celebrate. Otherwise, there can be no kinship. As Abraham Joshua Heschel once wrote about attempts to convert the Jews: "How can we take seriously a friendship that is conditioned ultimately on the hope and expectation that the Jew will disappear? How would a Christian feel if we Jews were engaged in an effort to bring about the liquidation of Christianity?"

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/20...-Jesus.aspx?p=2

from another Rabbi and at the moment can't find the quote ... basically they didn't need a middle man like Jesus to get to God ... they have a direct line .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello, Karlis

I don't think that Psalm 82 contains material related to the Christian theory of original sin and redemption by death. All of that will come centuries after this psalm was written down.

This psalm is uncontroversially of northern origin, where cosmopolitan exposure to a variety of religious ideas would plausibly shape the psalmist's notion of godhood. On the world stage, there is nothing about being a god that excludes dying or suffering other reversals of fortune. Verse 7 would fit comfortably in the Eddas, addressed to Odin, verbatim.

What sin there is in the psalm is actual sin (verse 2), for which remedial action is needed and available to the living (verses 3 and 4). The basis for that remedial action is, you should pardon the expression, knowledge of good and evil (verse 5).

8bits -- could you rephrase that into English, please? :)

Karlis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
that's an opinion , not fact.

another opinion ... Rabbi David Wolpe

The idea that one can be saved only through Jesus is contrary to simple compassion and justice. Judaism teaches that "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." Maimonides writes in a letter that there are non-Jews who "bring their souls to perfection." That is the simple truth that all faiths should acknowledge and celebrate. Otherwise, there can be no kinship. As Abraham Joshua Heschel once wrote about attempts to convert the Jews: "How can we take seriously a friendship that is conditioned ultimately on the hope and expectation that the Jew will disappear? How would a Christian feel if we Jews were engaged in an effort to bring about the liquidation of Christianity?"

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/20...-Jesus.aspx?p=2

from another Rabbi and at the moment can't find the quote ... basically they didn't need a middle man like Jesus to get to God ... they have a direct line .

And what's 'your' opinion, Ripley? This is one of the very few posts where you have not specifically told us. :P

<Just in fun>, ;)

Karlis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8bits -- could you rephrase that into English, please?

Oh, friend Karlis, you can come back better than that. I know you can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh, friend Karlis, you can come back better than that. I know you can.
Not really. I found it almost impossible to comprehend what you wrote -- seriously.

Now, if you could re-write it in plain English, I would much appreciate that. :tu:

Karlis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And what's 'your' opinion, Ripley? This is one of the very few posts where you have not specifically told us. :P

<Just in fun>, ;)

Karlis

lmao ... my opinion is it is just a book like any other on the subject of God. Opinion , wishes , desires , myth , social concerns of the time , politics ....... very unGod like actually. all man made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

OK. Friend Karlis, You wrote a Christian interpretation of Psalm 82. To which I replied: No, that is not what the psalmist was saying, in my opinion.

Edited by eight bits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did Jesus think he was God or was this made up by man ?

Jesus was a Othodox Jew and according to their beliefs about the messiah , which he would have been well aware ....

Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human.

Moreover, Jews find no foundation in the scriptures for such a belief about the messiah. Passages viewed by Christians as indicating a divine messiah (such as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53) are viewed by Jews as speaking of the people of Israel,

Jesus would have been well aware of the above... that God could never become human.

So if Jesus , being a good Jew , wouldn't think himself God why do Christians ?

Just because Jesus was a Jew it does not necessitate the requirement that He believe in the things that many of the Jews believed in during His day.

Even you have said in earlier posts that Jesus came to clean up the corruption in the Jewish belief. Your post above contradicts that statement. Which is it? Where the Jews right and Jesus wrong, or was Jesus right and the Jews wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OK. Friend Karlis, You wrote a Christian interpretation of Psalm 82. To which I replied: No, that is not what the psalmist was saying, in my opinion.
The commentary in (Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible) would seem to agree with your opinion, 8Bits. Here is what's written there:

Psalms 82 -

This, too, is a “Psalm of Asaph.” See Introduction to Ps. 73. There is nothing, however, in its contents to determine the time or the occasion of its being composed, although there is no difficulty in ascertaining the design for which it was written, or the use to be made of it. It is intended to state the duties and the responsibilites of magistrates or civil rulers. Though the language is such as was adapted especially to the Hebrew magistracy, and to the duties of magistrates as specified in the Jewish law, yet the principles are such as should guide magistrates at all times and in all countries; and the truths suggested are such as are eminently worthy the attention of all who are entrusted with authority.

The psalm was evidently composed at a time when there was much that was unjust and oppressive in the administration of justice; when the magistrates were corrupt; when they could be bribed; when they were forgetful of their obligation to defend the poor and the fatherless - the afflicted and the needy; when manifest consequences of the evil administration of justice prevailed in the land, and “all the foundations of the earth” seemed to be “out of course;” and when those in power were haughty and arrogant, as if they were not people, and were not to die. DeWette supposes that the psalm was composed in the time of the Babylonian exile, and had reference to the conduct of the oppressive rulers in that land; but it is not necessary to suppose this. There were doubtless many occasions in the history of the Hebrew people when all that is here said of the conduct of their rulers and judges was applicable to them. Compare Isa_1:17, Isa_1:23, Isa_1:26.

The contents of the psalm are as follows:

I.
A reference to God as the Supreme Ruler; the Ruler of those that rule; the God to whom all magistrates, however exalted in rank, are responsible, Psa_82:1.

II.
A reference to the character of the magistrates at the time when the psalm was written, as those who judged unjustly; who were partial in the administration of justice; and who favored people of rank and position, Psa_82:2.

III.
A statement of the duties of magistrates, in reference particularly to the poor, the fatherless, the needy, and the afflicted, Psa_82:3-4.

IV.
A further statement in regard to the character of the magistrates at the time when the psalm was written, particularly as ignorant, and as walking in darkness, Psa_82:5.

V.
A solemn appeal to them as mortal people - as subject to death like others - though they had a rank which entitled them to the appellation of “gods,” and were the representatives of the Most High on earth, Psa_82:6-7.

VI.
A call on God to arise and to execute judgment in the earth, for he was the Supreme Ruler, and the nations, with all their interests, pertained to him, Psa_82:8.

I guess there would be no controversy about this Psalm, except for the words spoken by Jesus:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that
thou, being a man, makest thyself God
.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them,
Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Joh 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified
[Jesus is saying this about himself, here], and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because
I said, I am the Son of God
?

Here it seems (to me anyway) that Jesus is saying that Mankind are 'potential' Gods. Furthermore, there are a number of other Scriptures that clearly state that when Jesus returns, the 'saints' will be resurrected as immortal spirit beings, and will be heirs and co-heirs with Christ, and will be 'sons of God'.

I know, I know ... fanciful stories, and all that hype. :)

Karlis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just because Jesus was a Jew it does not necessitate the requirement that He believe in the things that many of the Jews believed in during His day.

Even you have said in earlier posts that Jesus came to clean up the corruption in the Jewish belief. Your post above contradicts that statement. Which is it? Where the Jews right and Jesus wrong, or was Jesus right and the Jews wrong?

yes the corruption in the Jewish belief = the Pharisees ... the politics of it. not the scripture . I thought one versed in the bible would understand that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I beleive im god does that make me Jesus?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yes the corruption in the Jewish belief = the Pharisees ... the politics of it. not the scripture . I thought one versed in the bible would understand that.

I did. Again, you have contradicted yourself. I'm beginning to think that you got a stink about Christianity alone. Because you don't even believe in the Bible, but yet you think that Jesus came to correct people on it. You don't go by any testimony of Jesus. You just take his name and make up your own story, then contradict yourself twice in the process. I'm beginning to think that you're point of view is not worth debating over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Karlis, for posting a nice exposition of the "judges" interpretation of "the council of the gods" in Psalm 82.

I think that Jesus in using Psalm 82 as a defense against charges of blasphemy suggests the interpretation "When the psalmist depicted God as addressing the council of gods, then the psalmist meant just what that sounds like: God is speaking to other gods." I sense we are in some agreement about that, too, at least that Jesus' and John's use of the psalm puts that interpretation in play.

And to work as a defense for the living Jesus, then living people need to fit into the psalm somewhere.

Within your analysis of the scriptures as a whole, not just the two passages (the psalm and its use by Jesus in John) alone, you have the notion of people as potential gods. Like you, I bring other writings to complement the two passages, and arrive at the notion of people as actual gods.

It would seem that you and I are in agreement, then, that the answer to the title question of the thread is "Yes, Jesus did think he was God." I suppose where we disagree would be about the answer to an obvious and related question: "Did Jesus think he was a human being like other men and women?"

You would say (I think) "Yes, as an example of what people may become," versus my "Yes, as someone aware of who we already are."

You may also have a higher opinion of the attractions of godhood than I do. I see much responsibility, to be discharged with limited knowledge, power, and within mortality... a job as much as an adventure, and surely not a reward for virtue, nor even a "reward" at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

that's an opinion , not fact.

another opinion ... Rabbi David Wolpe

The idea that one can be saved only through Jesus is contrary to simple compassion and justice. Judaism teaches that "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." Maimonides writes in a letter that there are non-Jews who "bring their souls to perfection." That is the simple truth that all faiths should acknowledge and celebrate. Otherwise, there can be no kinship. As Abraham Joshua Heschel once wrote about attempts to convert the Jews: "How can we take seriously a friendship that is conditioned ultimately on the hope and expectation that the Jew will disappear? How would a Christian feel if we Jews were engaged in an effort to bring about the liquidation of Christianity?"

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/20...-Jesus.aspx?p=2

from another Rabbi and at the moment can't find the quote ... basically they didn't need a middle man like Jesus to get to God ... they have a direct line .

here is the problem. All who have lived will be resurrected due to Christ. But that does not mean all will be saved. This is up to Christ since he paid our price. Also in this case and most cases compassion and justice are at odds with each other.

Edited by danielost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The difference between - a play by Shakespeare and the bible...is - the play by William Shakespeare is fictional and everyone is well aware of it......but the bible is pushed out as real.......I don't see it as real, and so I treat it like a book of fiction, and one of the leading characters is jesus <--just my own personal belief...I believe in god but not the same god from the bible

Ah, but the idea of you as you think you are is a work of fiction too. You and I and everyone around us is playing a role and speaking the words of an author. Some call this author 'God' but 'The Self will do just a nicely and is more descriptive and doesn't cause the same hassle when people say 'Im am God' or 'I and my father are one'

We all play out the roles allotted to us (the bad guys quite often get all the best parts) and the life of Jesus , be he fictional or otherwise would have no meaning without all the bit players around him playing their roles to perfection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
here is the problem. All who have lived will be resurrected due to Christ. But that does not mean all will be saved. This is up to Christ since he paid our price. Also in this case and most cases compassion and justice are at odds with each other.

Well said!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Just because Jesus was a Jew it does not necessitate the requirement that He believe in the things that many of the Jews believed in during His day.

Even you have said in earlier posts that Jesus came to clean up the corruption in the Jewish belief. Your post above contradicts that statement. Which is it? Where the Jews right and Jesus wrong, or was Jesus right and the Jews wrong?

Well said bro, Iam a jew and do not adhere to all jewish tradition or Belief, although nothing can make me not a Jew , as I was born a Jew. However having free wil I can and do decide what is right and Wrong to my perspective.(Spirit)

LOve Omnaka

Edited by Omnaka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
here is the problem. All who have lived will be resurrected due to Christ. But that does not mean all will be saved. This is up to Christ since he paid our price. Also in this case and most cases compassion and justice are at odds with each other.

The Self sees only the Self and therefore noone is seen that needs to be saved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the word "elohim" in hebrew literally means Gods. It has, however, a few meanings. one of them is as a name of god. another is a class of angels who we might call in English "the godlike ones", the ehief of whom is Michael, whose name is a question "who is like god?" Another common meaning in the bible itself is "great or famous or heroic humans, such as judges". The Jews take the most logical, that God judges the judgers, the great and the mighty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.