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angel417

The True Nature of Earthlings

41 posts in this topic

What about a rock, MW?

A rock exists, ergo does it think?

You will/can, only find a definitive answer to this by asking/interrogating the rock, Leonardo.

My organic consciousness/sapience allows me to think. I would extrapolate then, that not possessng an organic consciousness, a rock cannot think. However, if the rock tells you differently, please let me know. :innocent:

For example, while we cannot ask an animal if it thinks, we can "ïnterrogate" it, using various means, and thus ascertain its ability to think, and the nature/ level of that ability.

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Posted (edited)

You will/can, only find a definitive answer to this by asking/interrogating the rock, Leonardo.

My organic consciousness/sapience allows me to think. I would extrapolate then, that not possessng an organic consciousness, a rock cannot think. However, if the rock tells you differently, please let me know. :innocent:

For example, while we cannot ask an animal if it thinks, we can "ïnterrogate" it, using various means, and thus ascertain its ability to think, and the nature/ level of that ability.

I don't understand, MW. In your previous post you said existence was the only criteria required for what exists to think. There was no requirement for that existence to be 'organic'.

For me the answer is very simple.

I exist, ergo i think.

Now you are saying that interrogation of that objects ability to think is also required?

Is this not contradicting your previous position and making it, in fact a circular argument? You are only capable of determining your ability to think by querying your ability to think.

So, what is it, MW. Is thinking determined by existence, or is existence determined by thinking? I mean, as you say Descartes got it wrong, so surely you must be able to show the right way for this philosophical logic to work.

Edited by Leonardo

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Posted (edited)

name='Leonardo' date='Jun 23 2009, 06:51 PM' post='2945989']

I don't understand, MW. In your previous post you said existence was the only criteria required for what exists to think. There was no requirement for that existence to be 'organic'.

I did not say, nor infer this. I said that my consciousness is organically based and thus logic implies that only organisms with a similar organic base can think. Remember criticising me for making assumptions about the universe based on speculation?

Also i did not say that the only criteria for thought was existence. What i said was "Only my existence allows me to think," which is substantially different.

Now you are saying that interrogation of that objects ability to think is also required?

No, i said that if you wished to determine if a rock can think you must interrogate it to find out. Its responsiveness/non responsiveness will be indicative, but it is your ability to think in many forms (Combined with an understanding of the link between organic consciousness and thought) which will make the final determination.

If you follow Descarte's model, it is entirely possible that a rock thinks, but that as an independent consciousness we can never determine the truth of this.

This is a classic example of why Descartes is an interesting philosophical model but often not productive in reality. In this case it actually conflicts with general scientific method.

Can science succeed if it maintains the likelihood that a rock can think, and acts on that possibility? Perhaps it can, but generally it is a wasteful and non productive approach. Philosophy does not need to be efficient.

Is this not contradicting your previous position and making it, in fact a circular argument? You are only capable of determining your ability to think by querying your ability to think.

No it is not. You are just attempting to interpret it that way. :D

So, what is it, MW. Is thinking determined by existence, or is existence determined by thinking? I mean, as you say Descartes got it wrong, so surely you must be able to show the right way for this philosophical logic to work.

Thinking is determined by existence.

Without existence we could not think. It is true that, in thinking, we know we exist, but that leads us no where in practical terms. The greater/more valuable truth, is that our thought is dependent on our existence.

If we understand why, and how we think, we will come closer to determining who and what we are, thus understanding self, (the inner universe), the outside universe, (that which exists independent of, and not conditional on, our existence/perception of it) and the interrelationships which exist between these, more accurately and usefully.

The difference pathways in logic/philosophy are illustrated thus. Using descartes model we are trapped into a conclusion that nothing exists independent of our perception. Many philosophers actually present this as a valid reality.

Using "my" model, we become aware that everything exists, independent of our perception of it (even ourselves at times)

This frees up logic and philosophy for a more open (as opposed to a closed) approach to the nature of reality and existence. And eventually leads to the conclusion that, even if all sapient thought ceased, the rest of the universe would exist, irrespective and unchanged. This has important applications for science, as well as philosophy and logic.

We can, then, examine the practical realities, and potentialities, which the existence of sapience does impose on the universe; the way it modifies it, the implications of this for sapient beings, and for the universe, and a host of other considerations.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Hi, everyone. First, let me deal with a psychological and biological possibilities, before moving to metaphysics. This might be a tad long, so bear with me, if you will.

Let us assume that a baby is born without any previous experiences of life, that it's first moments are truly first moments, ever! Imagine being thrown into the water and expected to survive. That's probably how the baby feels. In a world where everyone talks in ways it doesn't understand, does things it has never seen and in general, EVERYTHING is new to it. There was a question about why we interpret things differently. Well, there's a possible reason. Because every child is an individual, unique in its way of thinking from the start. Yes, people can eventually convince it that one thing is right and another is wrong, but essentially, the child's mind decides who to trust and believe. As such, because each of our minds functions individualy, we perceive things differently.

Also, still in biology, do not forget that our understanding of our surroundings comes from the five senses we possess. Now, I've heard about sixth sense, seventh and hell, even eight, but these are not available to everyone. In other words, there are things most of us can't perceive at all. Or what about disabled people, say blind or deaf people? One of their senses has been robbed from them, will they still interpret things the same way? Most probably not. In this way, we are limited to our senses, and the idea of "what is real" can be eternally discussed until we've run out of senses or have decided that we will never obtain all of them and as such, will never perceive the world as it truly is.

Okay... still with me? Thanks. Moving to the metaphysical. Now, disclaimer: these are theories that I have heard being discussed and are not my own, nor do I wholeheartedly believe in them. No flaming me for being stupid, flame the ideas.

Theory 1: Closely related to the idea of parallel worlds. Imagine reality, or more specifically, time, as a web, rather than a linear function. What I mean is that, this moment does not just move directly to the next, but spreads into thousands possibilities of the "next moment". The next moment does the same, and so on and so forth. You can imagine how huge the web is. Now, the moment we exist in is reality, everything else is the potential reality that currently exists outside our world. The moment we step into it, however, it becomes real.

This is where it gets more difficult. Our body is made out of two parts: Mind (that acts as our rationality) and Soul (that is also known as intuition). Now, the body is restrained by the Mind, because, as John had previously said, the real has laws of physics to follow. The Soul, however, has no such restrictions and can move freely through the web as it likes. Mostly, it does so during sleep, when the Mind allows for crazy things to happen that don't follow the laws of physics (cause it's sleep!). We can put daydreaming into the same category, meaning it's the Soul moving through the web. In this way, there is no one reality, but a huge number of possible realities that will occur when we step into them.

I've written far enough of this already, but if anyone's interested, feel free to ask...

Theory 2: Shorter this time, I promise: The idea that we are an avatar of an astral body that is by far more powerful than we are now. I'm not entirely sure why they transform into us to live a life here, but imagine it like you were playing some Roleplaying Game (Sorry, I'm a gamer, couldn't help it), except instead of you being the player and the avatar being an electronical interpretation you've created, you and your astral body are ONE during your life and when you die you return back to the astral world, where you can choose to stay or go back. Basically. I'm not that familiar with this theory.

I hope that this heap of text was at least partly interesting to read. Otherwise, sorry to waste your time :P

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We do wonder about the mysterious.

After all, it is a natural human tendency to do so. Often times intangible elements in life that seem far beyond our ordinary perceptions cannot be immediately grasped through our average understanding, manners of thinking that are inevitably marred by individual beliefs. What we don’t see, what we can’t see, what we can’t touch, and what we simply cannot reach, all appear to us as images or scenes that are not characterized by clarity. Our place is firmly rooted in the present, the duration of current time in which we must engage with others and our surroundings.

So now it is known to us that we, as human beings, tend to both live steadily in the present – the being-centralized boundary of the now – and wander off into a distant field of memories and yearnings that sees no restrictive lines.

Are we really existing and functioning in the realm of physical reality, of substance, and of presence at the same time? Or are we being watched and monitored by an outer, supreme force, an unknown entity that identifies with or represents our beings?

This then leads me to ponder upon the possibility that we are not really all beings but, rather, these outer forces are, and that we are nothing more than physical appearances, transparent in our daily operations with no evident proof that we really are here.

Thank you for taking part in this discussion - happy discussing!

I think we can all agree that no one really knows the truth. Only what agrees with our own perceptions. I believe we were created by humans from another planet who were mistaken for 'gods'. Makes sense to me. But to others it sounds stupid. The same with religion...makes sense to someone else, but silly to me.

All we can do is find something that we agree with and be polite and respectful of people who think differently. Then perhaps make a better world based on scientific laws and a mutual respect of each other, instead of religious tradition and war.

Hopefully! We've only got one humanity, so let's save it.

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I think we can all agree that no one really knows the truth. Only what agrees with our own perceptions. I believe we were created by humans from another planet who were mistaken for 'gods'. Makes sense to me. But to others it sounds stupid. The same with religion...makes sense to someone else, but silly to me.

All we can do is find something that we agree with and be polite and respectful of people who think differently. Then perhaps make a better world based on scientific laws and a mutual respect of each other, instead of religious tradition and war.

I agree with the thing about gods being extraterrestrials. Don't know about us being created by them though. I just think that "Gods", as they are called, really sound like powerful creatures, more than something divine. I've always viewed the human God (I mean, what humans praise, take whichever religion you want) as just some powerful being, not necessarily benevolent either, although I do also believe in a what you call "One True God", except my view on It is a little different.

But if you think about it, the belief that we were created by extraterrestrials is a modern take on old religions. Now that we have science, it makes sense for us to apply that to our religious nature and instead of saying "god did it", which nowadays sounds silly, we say "extraterrestrials did it" which sounds like something reasonable and potentially true. No disrespect here, just something I'd noticed.

Hopefully! We've only got one humanity, so let's save it.

Sometimes, my hope for humanity disappears, due to one event or another. So I'm not sure that humanity can do that... as somebody once pointed out, the only thing we seem to be good at, is killing each other.

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I agree with the thing about gods being extraterrestrials. Don't know about us being created by them though. I just think that "Gods", as they are called, really sound like powerful creatures, more than something divine. I've always viewed the human God (I mean, what humans praise, take whichever religion you want) as just some powerful being, not necessarily benevolent either, although I do also believe in a what you call "One True God", except my view on It is a little different.

But if you think about it, the belief that we were created by extraterrestrials is a modern take on old religions. Now that we have science, it makes sense for us to apply that to our religious nature and instead of saying "god did it", which nowadays sounds silly, we say "extraterrestrials did it" which sounds like something reasonable and potentially true. No disrespect here, just something I'd noticed.

Sometimes, my hope for humanity disappears, due to one event or another. So I'm not sure that humanity can do that... as somebody once pointed out, the only thing we seem to be good at, is killing each other.

I see what you are saying. But the idea of ET's creating us has always been there....it's just that people didn't understand that these aliens were people just like themselves from another planet, so they thought of them as 'Gods'.

But now we are mature enough to understand, we can understand the real truth behind all of the old religious stories.

Humans are generally very good people. It only takes a few idiots to blow up the world. That's why we have to make sure that our leaders aren't aggressive and violent people.

-Josh

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Humans are generally very good people. It only takes a few idiots to blow up the world. That's why we have to make sure that our leaders aren't aggressive and violent people.

I'm not entirely certain what my problem with humans is... I've met many wonderful people and I've met some who weren't so wonderful or understanding, but I've never really met any that were downright bad (with one or two exceptions). One possible problem with humans though, is that they're very protective. And I mean very. They protect their partners from potential "threats" (jealousy), they protect their homeland from potential threats, they protect their things from potential threats and so on and so forth... I have read many theories, religious and secular about wars and aggressive behavior and when it could be acceptable. One thing that always struck me was that the only time a war is acceptable is when it's a defensive war... someone has to attack before someone else can defend... but who's going to attack, if everyone only justifies defense? Do you see what I mean?

I'm a little like that... but I've given up the idea of fighting for my country, because after seeing people from all over the world I can't raise my hand against them... a fellow countryman isn't better than a foreigner in my eyes. I've tried giving up jealousy and I feel like I'm succeeding in that endeavor too. But if others see me as weird because of that, they can see me as a threat and attack, in defense...

Don't know where I'm going with this, but suffice to say that humans aren't such simple creatures and neither is their nature. I simply hope that one day, nothing will stand in the way of unity between nations. Not nationality nor religion... but that's a dream that's far from being fulfilled atm...

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Summing up every creature inside the realm of nature has emotion but we being superior creatures express it

Thanks

B???

i'm not as certain as you that we human beings are superior to other life forms on the earth. Whales make joyful announcements of the birth of a calf,and other communications, by means of sound emitted in self reinforcing Longitudinal waves which travel across entire oceans without becoming louder or quieter! ... ants, birds, bees, deer, .. almost any animal you can name has the ability to communicate in one way or another. Have you ever watched a mother cat wash her kittens? i have never seen a purer expression of the 'emotion' of LOVE. If Ego is the measure of superiority.. then , yes,, human beings are the most superiorest of all. :o)

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Cogito ergo sum

"But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I too do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all] then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." (AT VII 25; CSM II 16–17)

-René Descartes,

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Summing up every creature inside the realm of nature has emotion but we being superior creatures express it

Thanks

B???

There is no such thing as a superior creature. And other animals display and express emotions.

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Well it's by far the most likely situation. From a secular viewpoint, there exists one true reality and then a practically infinite number of simulated (false)realities, yes? It's simple statistics--do you think you're holding the winning ticket or one of the trillions of losing tickets? It's my personal belief that we probably can't even imagine what the true reality is like. Planets? Galaxies? Doubtful. It's our base though, so imagining something different is practically impossible.

Once, while under the influence, I came to the idea that it's the emotions we create that are actually real and we exist merely as tools to aid in their creation. Not too sure where I was going with that one, but like I said--under the influence.

Edit: nice first post btw. We need more intelligent posters like yourself on UM.

Hello. Under the influence means without(most of) the restrictions your conscious mind lays upon your thinking processes. (Wy do you think drugs are banned??) Your conscious mind makes/lets you see only what it can accept as rational and what it is capable of believing in. When you/something overrides the conscious mind, your thought processes may be cleared up and enhanced, or may be obscured, depending on the degree of the given influence. I will give you a highly interesting reading on this one in case you are interested. As for what you experienced - we are mere tools to aid the creation of emotions - well, you ain't too far off from the truth. A nice piece of work to help you understand the nature of what's really going on is the second reading I would like to recommend. So the first one: Aldous Huxley: The Doors of Perception. (You might also find this one interesting from him: On Drugs and Creativity.) Second: Robert Monroe: Far Journeys. This one is mostly about astral experiences but it also tells an interesting story parts of which you might/might not find a possible part of reality. The stroy taken out of the context is this:

Someone, Somewhere (or both, in millions, or uncountable) requires,

likes, needs, values, collects, drinks, eats, or uses as a drug (sic) a substance

ident Loosh. (Electricity, oil, oxygen, gold, wheat, water, land, old coins,

uranium.) This is a rare substance in Somewhere, and those who possess

Loosh find it vital for whatever it is used for.

Faced with this question of Supply and Demand (a universal law of

Somewhere), Someone decided to produce it artificially, so to speak,

rather than search for it in its "natural" form. He decided to build a

Garden and grow Loosh.

In the natural state, Loosh was found to originate from a series of

vibrational actions in the carbon-oxygen cycle and the residue was Loosh

in varying degrees of purity. It occurred only during such action, and

secondarily during the reactive process. Prospectors from Somewhere

ranged far and wide in search of Loosh sources and new discoveries were

hailed with much enthusiasm and reward.

So it was that Someone and his Garden changed all this. Far off, in a

remote area, he set to work on his experiment. First, he created a proper

environment for the carbon-oxygen cycle, where it would flourish. He

created a Balance with much care, so that proper radiation and other

nourishment would be in continuous supply.

He then tried his First Crop, which actually did produce Loosh, but

only in small quantities and of comparatively low grade, not significant

enough to take back to the heart of Somewhere. The problem was twofold.

The life period was too short and the crop units themselves were too

minute. This brought about limits in quality and quantity, as the crop had

no time to generate Loosh in such close tolerances. Moreover, the Loosh

could be harvested only at the moment of termination of the life span, not

one moment before.

His Second Crop was no better, if as good. He changed the environment

to another part of the Garden, where the density was gaseous rather

than liquid and the higher-density chemicals formed a solid base and thus

were still available. He planted numberless units in many varieties in a

new form, with a great increase in size, some many thousands of times

larger and more complex than the simple unicellular First Crop. He re-reversed

the carbon-oxygen cycle. Yet all had a basic uniformity. Like the

First Crop, they would reseed at regular intervals and terminate their life

spans automatically. To avoid the uneven distribution of chemicals and

radiation which had been prevalent in the First Crop, he immobilized the

Second Crop. Each was designed to stay principally in its own section of

the Garden. To this end, each was given firm tendrils which burrowed

deep in the more dense chemical matter. Attached to this was a stem or

trunk which helped elevate the upper portion upward for its share of

needed radiation. The upper portion, broad, thin, and somewhat fragile,

was designed as a transducer of carbon-oxygen compounds to and from

the crop unit. As an added thought, brilliant color radiators accompanied

by small particle generators were mounted on each unit, usually near the

top and symmetrically centered.

He set up circulating patterns in the gaseous envelope around the crop,

principally to aid in the reseeding process. Later, he discovered that the

same turbulent effect served as a means of harvesting the Loosh. If the

turbulence were violent enough, the Crop would be blown down, the life

span terminated, and the Loosh would discharge. This was especially useful

when an immediate Loosh supply was desired at a particular point

rather than at Harvest Time.

Despite all of this, the Second Crop was most unsatisfactory. While it

was true that a much greater quantity was attained, the unrefined Loosh

produced was of such low grade that it was scarcely worth the effort. In

addition, the growth period was now too long and no increase in quality

resulted. Some vital element was missing.

Someone hovered over his Garden for a long period in study before he

attempted the Third Crop. It was indeed a challenge. True, he was partially

successful. He had grown Loosh. Yet the product of his efforts fell far

short of the wild, uncultivated variety.

It was inevitable that he perceived the answer. The Third Crop was

living proof of this Truth. The original carbon-oxygen cycle must be included.

Mobility must be restored. Both factors had shown great promise

in high-grade Loosh production. If size could be added to this, much

could be accomplished.

With this plan in the forefront, Someone removed various sample units

from the First Crop, which was still thriving in the liquid portion of the Garden. He modified them to exist and grow in the gaseous area. He

adapted them first to take nourishment from the Second Crop, which he

permitted to abound for this very purpose. Thus it was that the first of the

Mobiles, the Third Crop, came into being. The Mobiles took nourishment

from the Second Crop, thus ending its life span and producing lowgrade

Loosh. When each huge Mobile terminated its own life span, additional

Loosh was produced. The quantity was massive, but the frequency

pattern of the Loosh residue still left much to be desired.

It was by accident that Someone came upon the Prime Catalyst as

regards Loosh production. The monstrous and slow-moving Mobiles had a

life span far out of proportion to their nourishment input. The growth and

life-termination process was of such length that soon the Mobiles would

all but decimate the Second Crop. The entire Garden would be out of

balance, and there would be no Loosh production whatsoever. Both the

Second and Third Crop faced extinction.

As the Second Crop grew scarce, energy needs of the Mobiles became

acute. Often two Mobiles would seek to ingest the identical Second Crop

unit. This created Conflict, which resulted in physical struggle among two

or more of the ungainly Mobiles.

Someone observed these struggles, at first bemused with the problem,

then with great interest. As the struggles ensued, the Mobiles were emanating

Loosh! Not in fractional amounts, but in sizable, usable quantities

and of a much higher purity.

He quickly put the theory to the test. He removed another unit of First

Crop from the liquid Garden area, redesigned it for the gaseous environment—

but with one significant change. The new Mobile would be somewhat

smaller, but would require the ingestion of other Mobiles for nourishment.

This would solve the problem of overpopulation of Mobiles, and

at the same time would create good quantities of usable Loosh during each

conflict-struggle, plus a bonus if the new class of Mobile terminated the

life span of the other. Someone would be able to transmit to Somewhere

practical amounts of reasonably pure Loosh.

Thus it was that the Rule of the Prime Catalyst came into being.

Conflict among carbon-oxygen cycle units brings forth consistent emanations

of Loosh. It was as simple as that.

Satisfied that he had found the formula, Someone prepared the Fourth Crop. He knew now that the Third Crop Mobiles were too large and too

long in life span to be ultimately practical. If grown in large numbers, the

entire Garden would have to be expanded and enlarged. There was not

space enough to grow such massive single units and the proportionate

leafy Second Crops to support them. Also, he reasoned correctly that

more rapid and increased mobility would expand the Conflict factor, with

a resultant higher Loosh output.

In one single motion, Someone terminated the life spans of all the

lumbering Third Crop Mobiles. Going back to the First Crop in the

liquid area, he modified and expanded them into a multitude of shapes

and sizes, gave them complex multicellular structures of high mobility. He

designed into them a pattern of balance. There were those that ingested a

Second Crop type of carbon-cycle unit (basically immobile) as an energy

source. There were others, very highly mobile, who required for energy the

ingestion of other mobile Modified First Crop units.

The completed circuit operated quite satisfactorily. The stationary Second

Crop modification in the liquid environment flourished. Small, highly

active liquid-breathing Mobiles took nourishment, "ate" the Second Crop

modification. Larger and/or other active Mobiles consumed for energy

the smaller "plant eaters." When any Mobile grew too large and slow, it

became an easy target for the smaller Mobiles, who attacked in voracious

numbers. The chemical residue from these ingestive actions settled to the

bottom of the liquid medium and so provided new nourishment for the

Stationaries (Modified Second Crop), completing the circuit. The result

was a steady flow of Loosh—from the life-span termination of the Stationaries,

from the intense conflict among the Mobiles to avoid ingestion, and

finally from the sudden termination of the life spans of such Mobiles as

the inevitable product of such conflicts.

Turning to another portion of his Garden—the gaseous area with a

dense-compound base—Someone applied the same techniques with even

more advanced improvements. He added many varieties of Stationaries

(original Second Crop) to provide sufficient and diverse nourishment for

the new Mobiles he was to create. As in the other Garden area, he made

such Mobiles into a balance of two species, those who ingested and drew

energy from the Second Crop Stationaries, and those who required other

Mobiles for sustenance. He created them in literally thousands of original types, small, large—yet none so large as the Third Crop Mobiles—and

ingeniously gave each some appurtenance for conflict. These took the

form of mass, elusive speed, deceptive and/or protective coating and color

radiation, wave-action and particle perceptors and detectors, and unique

higher-density protuberances for gouging, grasping, and rending during

conflict. All of the latter served neatly to add to and prolong the conflict

periods, with the resultant increase in Loosh emanation.

As a side experiment, Someone designed and created one form of Mobile

that was weak and ineffective by the standards of the other Mobiles in

the Fourth Crop. Yet this experimental Mobile had two distinct advantages.

It had the ability to ingest and take energy from both the Stationaries

and other Mobiles. Second, Someone pulled forth a Piece of Himself

—no other source of such Substance being known or available—to act as

an intensive, ultimate trigger to mobility. Following the Rule of Attraction,

Someone knew that such infusion would create in this particular

Mobile species an unceasing mobility. Always, it would seek to satisfy the

attraction this tiny mote of Himself engendered as it sought reunion with

the infinite Whole. Thus the drive for satisfaction of energy requirements

through ingestion would not be the only motivating force. More important,

the needs and compulsions created by the Piece of Someone could

not be satiated throughout the Garden. Thus the need for mobility would

be ever-present and the conflict between this need and that of energy

replacement would be constant—possibly a continuous high-order Loosh

emanator if it survived.

The Fourth Crop exceeded all of Someone's expectations. It became

apparent that a consistent, useful flow of Loosh was being produced in the

Garden. The balance of "life" operated perfectly, with the Conflict Factor

producing immense amounts of Loosh and a steady supplement brought

into being by the constant life-span terminations from all types of Mobiles

and Stationaries. To handle the output, Someone set up Special Collectors

to aid in the harvest. He set up Channels to convey the raw Loosh from

his Garden to Somewhere. No longer did Somewhere depend principally

upon the "wild state" as the principal source of Loosh. The Garden of

Someone had ended that.

With the success of the Garden and the production of Loosh by cultivated

means, Others began to design and build their Gardens. This was in accordance with the Law of Supply and Demand (Vacuum is an unstable

condition), as the amounts of Loosh from Someone's Garden only partially

met the requirements of Somewhere. Collectors on behalf of the

Others actually entered the Garden of Someone to take advantage of

those small emanations of Loosh overlooked or ignored by the Collectors

of Someone.

Someone, his work completed, returned to Somewhere and occupied

himself with other matters. Loosh production stayed at a constant level

under the supervision of the Collectors. The only alterations were ordered

by Someone himself. Under instructions from Someone, the Collectors

periodically harvested segments of the Fourth Crop. This was done to

ensure adequate chemicals, radiation, and other nourishment for the

younger, oncoming units. A secondary purpose was to provide occasional

extra amounts of Loosh created by such harvesting.

To reap such harvest, the Collectors generated storms of turbulence and

turmoil in both the gaseous envelope and the more solid chemical formations

that were the base of the Garden itself. Such upheavals had the

effect of terminating life spans of multitudes of the Fourth Crop as they

were crushed under the rolling base formation or smothered under waves

from the agitated liquid area of the Garden. (By peculiarity of design,

Fourth Crop units could not maintain their carbon-oxygen cycle surrounded

by the liquid medium.)

The Garden pattern of "Life" might have gone on thus throughout

eternity had it not been for the perception and inquisitiveness of Someone.

On occasion, he would study samples of Loosh from his Garden.

There was no motive in doing so, other than the fact that Someone may

have held a remote continuing interest in his project.

On a particular analysis of a Loosh sample, Someone had casually examined

the emanations and was about to return it to the Reservoir—when

he became aware of a Difference. It was very slight, but there it was.

His interest centered immediately, he looked again. Woven delicately in

with the more common Loosh emanations was a slender fragment of

purified and distilled Loosh. This was an impossibility. Purified and distilled

Loosh resulted only after the "wild state" Loosh had been processed

many times. The Loosh from the Garden of Someone required the same

treatment before it could be used. Yet here it was—so finely graded in its refined radiations that it could or

would not return into compound with the raw substance. Someone reaffirmed

his tests, and the result still was positive. There was a factor in his

Garden of which he was unaware.

Quickly, Someone left Somewhere and returned to his Garden. Outwardly,

all seemed the same. The solid-base gaseous areas of the Garden

were an endless carpet of green reflection from the thriving Second Crop.

The Modified First Crop in the liquid area was in perfect accord with the

Action-Reaction Law (a Division of Cause and Effect). Someone perceived

without delay that the Difference—the source of distilled Loosh—

lay neither with the First nor with the Second Crop.

He found his first momentary touch of distilled Loosh emanation in one

of the units of the Fourth Crop (which by then had filtered throughout

the plantings of the Second Crop). The flash came during the unusual

action of this unit as it entered into a life-terminating struggle with another

Fourth Crop unit. This alone would not create distilled Loosh,

Someone knew, and he probed deeper for the source.

It was at that moment he discovered the Difference. The Fourth Crop

unit was not struggling in Conflict over an ingestible remnant of a weaker

Fourth Crop unit or a tasty frond from a nearby Second Crop stem—or to

avoid termination of life and ingestion by the other conflicting Fourth

Crop unit.

It was in Conflict to protect and save from life termination three of its

own newly generated species huddled under a large Second Crop unit

waiting for the outcome. There was no doubt about it. This was the action

that produced the flashes of distilled Loosh.

With this clue, Someone examined the actions of other Fourth Crop

units in the Garden. He found similar flashes when other Fourth Crop

units took the same action in defense of their "young." Still, there was an

inconsistency. The sum of all such flashes of distilled Loosh emanation

from all such actions by the current Fourth Crop units would not amount

to half of the total he had found in the sample from the Reservoir. It was

obvious that another factor was present.

Systematically, he hovered over the Garden, extending his perception

to all areas. Almost immediately, he found the source. High-order distilled Loosh radiation was originating from one particular section of the Garden.

Quickly, he hurried to the spot.

There it was—an experimental Modified Fourth Crop unit, one of

those that contained a Piece of Himself in its functional pattern. It was

standing alone under the leafy upper portion of a large Second Crop unit.

It was not "hungry." It was not in Conflict with another Fourth Crop

unit. It was not acting in defense of its "young." Then why did it emanate

distilled Loosh in such great quantity?

Someone moved closer. His perception entered into the Modified

Fourth Crop unit and then he knew. The unit was lonely! It was this

effect that produced distilled Loosh.

As Someone drew back, he noted another unusual inconsistency. The

Modified Fourth Crop unit suddenly had become aware of His Presence.

It had collapsed and was jerking in strange convulsions on the solid-base

formation. Clear liquid was being expelled from the two radiation-perceiving

orifices. With this, the distilled Loosh emitted became even more

pronounced.

It was from this that Someone propounded his now famous DLP Formula,

which is in effect in the Garden at this time.

The balance of the story is well known. Someone included the fundamental

in his formula: ". . . The creation of pure, distilled Loosh is

brought forth in Type 4M units by the action of unfulfillment, but only if

such pattern is enacted at a vibratory level above the sensory bounds of

the environment. The greater the intensity of said pattern, the greater the

output of Loosh distillate. . . ."

To put the formula into effect, Someone designed subtle changes in his

Garden, all of them familiar to every historian. The splitting of all Crop

units into Halves (to engender loneliness as they sought to reunite) and

the encouragement of dominance of the Type 4M unit are but two of the

most noteworthy innovations.

As it appears now, the Garden is a fascinating spectacle of efficiency.

The Collectors have long since become Masters at the Art of the DLP

Formula. Type 4M units dominate and have spread through the entire

Garden, with the exception of the deeper portions of the liquid medium.

These are the principal producers of Loosh distillate.

From experience, the Collectors have evolved an entire technology with complementary tools for the harvesting of Loosh from the Type 4M units.

The most common have been named love, friendship, family, greed, hate,

pain, guilt, disease, pride, ambition, ownership, possession, sacrifice—and

on a larger scale, nations, provincialism, wars, famine, religion, machines,

freedom, industry, trade, to list a few. Loosh production is higher than

ever before . . .

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Hello. Under the influence means without(most of) the restrictions your conscious mind lays upon your thinking processes. (Wy do you think drugs are banned??) Your conscious mind makes/lets you see only what it can accept as rational and what it is capable of believing in. When you/something overrides the conscious mind, your thought processes may be cleared up and enhanced, or may be obscured, depending on the degree of the given influence. I will give you a highly interesting reading on this one in case you are interested. As for what you experienced - we are mere tools to aid the creation of emotions - well, you ain't too far off from the truth. A nice piece of work to help you understand the nature of what's really going on is the second reading I would like to recommend. So the first one: Aldous Huxley: The Doors of Perception. (You might also find this one interesting from him: On Drugs and Creativity.) Second: Robert Monroe: Far Journeys. This one is mostly about astral experiences but it also tells an interesting story parts of which you might/might not find a possible part of reality.

It is nothing to do with astral experiences though, it is to do with neurotoxicity.

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It is nothing to do with astral experiences though, it is to do with neurotoxicity.

And I'm sure you have SO much experience to back up that statement.

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And I'm sure you have SO much experience to back up that statement.

Yes, because experience tells you about the physiological effects of something. I'm sure if I took cyanide, it'd would give much better perspective on what it is doing to my neurons wouldn't it :rolleyes:

Weak argument.

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i think...life is all just a dream , but whos dream ? hahahahhahah :lol:

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