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tassie

Releasing Psi Ball Help

39 posts in this topic

My stomach has been hurting (NO- not a bathroom hurt), but like a sharp pain. It started around the time I started making Psi balls. I had no idea what it was from, then yesterday evening, I was meditating before doing a Psi ball and the answer came to me.

Everytime I'm done making a Psi ball, for SOME reason (I read it somewhere) that I'm supposed to let it come back TO me. So I put my Psi ball back in me. Right!? If this is the WRONG method, PLEASE let me know. I read that you're not supposed to leave it around or someone will kick it or something like that? I don't know if that was a joke, but I took it literally. The first time I tried doing my Psi ball, I used energy from myself. I have now started using energy from around me. But what do I do when I'm done with it? I noticed that when I was done with the Psi ball, I would put into my stomach and imagine the energy being released. I only later realized that wherever I touched or pointed the Psi ball to go to on my stomach, that specific part HURT LIKE H3LL later on. OMG!

I'm not going to do it anymore, but I need help on where do I release my Psi ball to when I'm done? Do I just stop concentrating and hope that it'll be gone?

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Posted (edited)

Psi balls don't exist, they are nonsense to the nth degree. It's all in your head.

Now, having put that out there, let's pretend they do exist. Why would you make them in the first place? What possible benefit or purpose do they give you? It seems pain is all you get out of it, so the answer is simple - quit making them. Fake or not, if you think that's what is causing the pain (think being the key word), simply stopping should fix it.

Edited by Moonie2012

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I'd advise you go to the doctor. There are many serious conditions that have severe stomach pain as a symptom.

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Posted (edited)

I'd advise you go to the doctor. There are many serious conditions that have severe stomach pain as a symptom.

Normally I'd agree, but to me it sounds like she's just straining herself (and her abdomen) with psiball nonsense.

Just stop "making" them. If you still have stomach pains after that, THEN go to the doctor.

Edited by Moonie2012

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Posted (edited)

LOL - it appears as though there are many skeptics in this unexplained-mysteries section under abilities... I appreciate your time and effort in responding to my post and for all of your worries over my own health. It shows that even though you don't know me and don't believe in the possibility of making a PSI ball, you still care for me. How kind. To be generous (as you have been to me), I will tell you that I do not have stomach problems or a cancer/disease of any kind (yet, that I know of). After I have made more Psi balls and released them using different methods, I will CONSIDER your words of advice and if I still have stomach pains, I will immediately search for Medical care.

To those who have made a Psi ball, I still need your assistance with releasing one. To those who do not believe that Psi balls are real: I did not put up this post demanding you to have faith in Psi balls or even believe that they are real. Just as I would not tell you who to pray to, or what Religion you should only follow, or even tell you to stop believing in something. I do not consider those who are Christians or Catholics, or those who believe and follow in Buddha's footsteps and teachings are wrong and that Jesus or God never existed or that Religion is in the end, a form of control. I'm not as ignorant as to simply talk with nothing to say.

My post is intended for those who have achieved in creating a Psi ball. My title alone for this post should only have attracted those who have created one. If you have never created one or don't even believe in one, what is the purpose of your response to my post? Besides the obvious of you trying to deter me from what I believe in and in doing so, you have shown me your quick medical care for my well being and your lack of sense. However, I will try not to judge you for only He is the final judgement.

Edited by tassie

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Posted (edited)

You never said WHY you feel the need to "make" them. If it causes issues (or even if it doesn't), why bother? What's the payoff?

Also, I resent being told I lack sense and having my disbelief likened to dissing someone's religion - especially when it comes from someone who claims to make magic unprovable invisible energy balls with their hands that give them stomach pains. I'm the one lacking sense? Really?? Psiballs are what make no sense and they have nothing to do with religion. I would not tell someone their religion is bogus (well, unless they were a Scientologist or some such tripe). Scientology and psiballs are equally rooted in nonsense - just as some science fiction writer went on a bender and came up with Scientology, some kid watched Dragonball Z a little too much and came up with psiballs.

Likening Christianity to a belief in psiballs is neither correct nor fair.

Edited by Moonie2012

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Psi balls don't exist, they are nonsense to the nth degree. It's all in your head.

Now, having put that out there, let's pretend they do exist. Why would you make them in the first place? What possible benefit or purpose do they give you? It seems pain is all you get out of it, so the answer is simple - quit making them. Fake or not, if you think that's what is causing the pain (think being the key word), simply stopping should fix it.

Regarding your question as to why would I make one? Like possibly many people out there, I had never heard of a Psi ball. However, unlike some people, it didn't mean that it was impossible just because I had never heard of it or that I've never done one myself. However, upon researching the possibility that it could be true, I found that I have made Psi balls before (unknowingly and they were not in the form of a ball). Not specifically in my own hands, but I have used energy for other purposes. Either way, I started concentrating on making a Psi ball to see if it could be done, how strong they can become, and the pain I accidentally inflicted upon myself, the possibility of focusing the energy enough to be felt by someone else.

As to what purpose I intend to use it... That's my own business and you shouldn't worry because I'm sure you and I will never cross paths in real life.

Idle side note: My Grandmother and Mother are actively practicing Shaman's. Or Healer's (not all choose to heal with their abilities) on a spiritual plane. Until recently, I have finally accepted my own fate and I'm testing the bounds of my current state and to the extent that I may become with more practice. Believe what you will, in the end, isn't everything just in our minds?

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Posted (edited)

As to what purpose I intend to use it... That's my own business and you shouldn't worry because I'm sure you and I will never cross paths in real life.

LOL - are you trying to say you plan to use psiballs against people? Not likely.

If you insist on "making" them even when it supposedly hurts, have at it, I guess. Better judgment isn't going to win the day, apparently.

Edited by Moonie2012

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Regarding your question as to why would I make one? Like possibly many people out there, I had never heard of a Psi ball. However, unlike some people, it didn't mean that it was impossible just because I had never heard of it or that I've never done one myself. However, upon researching the possibility that it could be true, I found that I have made Psi balls before (unknowingly and they were not in the form of a ball). Not specifically in my own hands, but I have used energy for other purposes. Either way, I started concentrating on making a Psi ball to see if it could be done, how strong they can become, and the pain I accidentally inflicted upon myself, the possibility of focusing the energy enough to be felt by someone else.

As to what purpose I intend to use it... That's my own business and you shouldn't worry because I'm sure you and I will never cross paths in real life.

Idle side note: My Grandmother and Mother are actively practicing Shaman's. Or Healer's (not all choose to heal with their abilities) on a spiritual plane. Until recently, I have finally accepted my own fate and I'm testing the bounds of my current state and to the extent that I may become with more practice. Believe what you will, in the end, isn't everything just in our minds?

Please explain the "Grandmother and Mother are actively practicing Shaman's"? What does that mean? Where did they get the training?

Please tell me where "Shamans" ever produced "psiballs".

You are accepting your fate? Funny, I control my future as much as I can.

Nibs

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You never said WHY you feel the need to "make" them. If it causes issues (or even if it doesn't), why bother? What's the payoff?

Also, I resent being told I lack sense and having my disbelief likened to dissing someone's religion - especially when it comes from someone who claims to make magic unprovable invisible energy balls with their hands that give them stomach pains. I'm the one lacking sense? Really?? Psiballs are what make no sense and they have nothing to do with religion. I would not tell someone their religion is bogus (well, unless they were a Scientologist or some such tripe). Scientology and psiballs are equally rooted in nonsense - just as some science fiction writer went on a bender and came up with Scientology, some kid watched Dragonball Z a little too much and came up with psiballs.

Likening Christianity to a belief in psiballs is neither correct nor fair.

If you read my post above, you will see I answered your first question.

As to your other questions and views: There is no need for you to bring up your personal views on Scientology. I have not studied Scientology thoroughly enough to make assumptions as to what it is. There are many other religions that we all have preconsumptions regarding, including Catholics and Mormons and several others; however, to be fair, none of them may be charged without careful consideration on the backgrounds of these large and popular beliefs. Please do not bring any of them up unless you have studied them each thoroughly and understand their origins and where they are today in our world. I brought them up as an example (not to mock them in turn or slander their name). If you read my post more closely, you will see that I considered Psi balls as something someone believes in to be real. I used the Religions as they are things people believe in to be real. Whatever context you then took the meaning in, that is all in your own mind.

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As to your other questions and views: There is no need for you to bring up your personal views on Scientology. I have not studied Scientology thoroughly enough to make assumptions as to what it is.

I have, and it's a load - just like psiballs. Neither one deserves to be compared to religion, but I digress.

I'm mildly offended (well, offended may be too strong a word) that you would liken a belief in Jesus to a belief in psiballs - but I guess that's all just in my own mind, just as psiballs are in yours.

Edited by Moonie2012

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To the OP -

Are you also stating that you can cause people pain? Really? Could you do this to a person who doesn't know you are attempting it? Not necessarily pain, maybe heat or something?

You need a million dollars?

Nibs

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Please explain the "Grandmother and Mother are actively practicing Shaman's"? What does that mean? Where did they get the training?

Please tell me where "Shamans" ever produced "psiballs".

You are accepting your fate? Funny, I control my future as much as I can.

Nibs

Hello Nibs! I didn't want to do this, but it seems everyone is so skeptical and I'm getting tired of not getting answers, so I'll answer you guys first.

Shaman's use and manipulates energy. Energy can be many things. Go google it so I don't have to explain. Psi balls are nothing but energy. I practice making Psi balls because they are a form of energy that with meditation and concentration you become stronger using energy, building your mind, and your senses.

Actively practicing Shaman's means that they practice their skills. Some use it to heal the ill or find the answer to someone's problem. There are older Shaman's who do not use all of their capabilities anymore; however, sometimes they don't have a choice and have to use their skills. There are different kinds of Shaman's... I'm Asian and I know that there are Native American Shaman's as well. The Shaman's I know of only use our gifts for our own clan. If an outside clan asks' for your assistance, we charge (but it varies based off of their traditions and how close of a clan we are to each other). I cannot disclose information on how we practice, but we learn our skills from the spirits/Ancestor's of our own clan. I'm not much help here because since I was a child, I've shut it out and ran away from it.

When I say that I have accepted my fate, it means that Shamanisim is not something that can be easily... learned. Most are choosen when they are born and if you refuse to practice, you become ill. That is what I mean when I said fate. If you're really interested in Shamanisim, I suggest you read it up. Our traditions DO NOT USE dr_gs to induce the trance. Many cultures rely on dr_gs to induce or enhance this state, we do not use or condone this form. I believe because of our history, we are simply very close to our Ancestor's and the spirit world.

I'm very understanding of those who believe this is all rubbish. Fear of the Supernatural and being modernized in America, I did everything I could to run away from it. As a kid, I went to Church and studied the Bible and lived a very normal Americanized and modern childhood. However, my fr!cken culture and the very being of who I am, I cannot run from. Imagine going to school and church and part of the theater and singing in Choir on Sunday's, then going home to Shaman's and spirits and dreaming of the spirits and Ancestor's that protect your clan? I was a very scared child, so I learned to develope a very strong energy to protect me and my mind. I have been succesful. However, things have happened in my past that my logical mind questions. If it was passed through the bloodline, I can't switch my blood. Each one of my siblings all has... something about them that's not... normal. One is very open to being attacked by demons/ghosts/spirits (she doesn't know how to block them out). When it first happened, I flew into a rage because her clan wouldn't take her to the Hospital (she married into another clan). She couldn't move and couldn't breath. She told me later that she knew she was going to die. She's 24 years old, healthy as anyone, not a smoker and is not around second-hand smoke, either. After a Shaman released whatever the h3ll was in her, she felt normal and could breath again. She went to the Hospital later and they couldn't find one thing wrong with her. Not even her weight, or any explanation as to why it happened. I still refused to believe then. (Since the fist episode, it has happened three more times, resulting in having to hide her spirit by a Shaman).

One dreams of possibly the future (however even that is always changing). One can actually see ghosts', talks to them, and has one that follows her. She's younger than me and went through it alone because she wouldn't tell anyone. I told her to never talk to them and to shut them out. Even then, I wouldn't believe. I only started to believe when she saw the man next to me. I've never told her about him. I have something that follows me (I say something because I'm afraid of it and I won't look to see what it is). She's just a kid, not even in high school. Why would I tell her that I have something that follows me around? I only learned two years ago that she's been seeing them all her life. My Mother... Is not...riiight. In her thinking. My Mother encourages these things. Needless to say, my Mother kept this knowledge away from the older siblings who have married onto to outside clans. My Mother hopes to use my sister into her own plans. If evil had a face, it'd be my Mothers. Yes, I know, I should honor and respect my elders and my parent's.

I dream of possibly the future and answers (I say possibly because the future always changes), I'm intuitive, and things happen when I'm mad. I rarely get mad and I'm always cautious now. Fr!ck!n de@d relatives keep coming to my dreams and telling me things. Funny thing is, I always run from them in my dreams. I learned to block them out now because I'm so afraid. Once, I finally listened and the impossible happened in real life. Since then, I've blocked it all out. I was told about this thing that follows me years ago. I ignored it and didn't believe in it. Then my sister saw it and told me not to be scared or it'll come out. Can you imagine me then? Freaking out and trying not to be scared at the same time. How do you fight something you can't see or don't know anything about. None of this can possibly be real, right? Then give me the answer as to why the h3ll do thousands and millions of people believe in it? There are some things you just don't f_c# with, or so, that was my motto when I ran as far as I could from my clan, their traditions, and all their other bs. Turns out, I've been wasting all this time running, thinking no one was chasing me. Only to find out, he's been with me all along. S.H.!.T.

So now we come back around to now. If I can't run from it. I'm going to prepare myself. I know one day he's going to come out and when he does, I want to be ready. I don't care if you don't believe in this, but in my world, it's very real. I've just been around it a whole lot more. If you have or know anything that can PROTECT me or PREVENT me from seeing spirits or ghosts' or wherever the h3ll they came from, you better start talking. If not, I don't need to hear mockery or other mumbo-jumbo because believe me, I've written the book on skepticism and I've ran for 22 years, and I'm done running.

By-the-by, I don't trust Shamans. WHICH IS WHY I'M TRYING NOT TO BE ONE, but if I have no choice, then I'LL BE D@MNED if I go down with out a fight.

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...yeah.

It sounds like there may be some other issues going on here that have nothing to do with psiballs.

Not really interested in this thread anymore, it's like a minefield at this point and I don't want to lose a foot. C-ya!~

Edited by Moonie2012

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Yeah, I'm not afraid of the supernatural. :)

I'm from a long line of witches. Been around this all my life. Healers, spells, etc.

I can confidently say that none of them can do "magic" or control the elements. There is nothing supernatural about it.

Now, couple of questions -

1. Can you cause another person to physically feel something?

2. Is the energy you release measurable?

I'm trying to get you to explain exactly what a psiball is made up of. Where the energy is coming from. How do you channel it into a "ball"?

Neat backstory but not the point at all.

Details. That is what I am looking for.

Nibs

_______________________________

Additional thought -

Your family or ancestory is Shamanism? They also manipulate energy but they can't help you?

Nibs

Edited by HerNibs

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And yet another psi ball topic loses the original post's purpose for the sake of internet fighting.

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And yet another psi ball topic loses the original post's purpose for the sake of internet fighting.

Well what did you expect to happen? When you post nonsense people are going to disagree with you.

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What I expected to happen was somebody might actually answer her question, but instead just a bunch of non believers called her out. Having just had a thread closed earlier today, I took a gander at the rules. Rule 2 states "No bashing - Do not use this section to pursue an anti-skeptic or anti-believer agenda." And that's what it seems like you guys are doing. I mean, do you really need to pronounce your disbelief of psi balls? I don't believe in them either, but I certainly see no reason to hover about on an internet message board so I can tell people about it every time a psi ball related thread pops up. *Snip*

Edited by SupeRgirl
inflammatory comment removed

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Well what did you expect to happen? When you post nonsense people are going to disagree with you.

Alright, I think you've made your point loud and clear Moonie. You've stated this multiple times and even bowed to leave the thread. Tone it down please, The OP has the right to discuss her/his topic in a civil environment.

Now back on topic.

778989-2-1.jpg Supergirl 778989-2-1.jpg

Unexplained Mysteries Moderator

Edited by SupeRgirl

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What I expected to happen was somebody might actually answer her question, but instead just a bunch of non believers called her out. Having just had a thread closed earlier today, I took a gander at the rules. Rule 2 states "No bashing - Do not use this section to pursue an anti-skeptic or anti-believer agenda." And that's what it seems like you guys are doing. I mean, do you really need to pronounce your disbelief of psi balls? I don't believe in them either, but I certainly see no reason to hover about on an internet message board so I can tell people about it every time a psi ball related thread pops up. What are you trying to prove, mister 2012-and-a-full-moon-oooh-creepy-avatar guy?

- content removed -

Consider this a formal warning, You are not going to derail this thread any further by picking fights.

Edited by SupeRgirl
Inflammatory comment removed

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Yeah, I'm not afraid of the supernatural. :)

I'm from a long line of witches. Been around this all my life. Healers, spells, etc.

I can confidently say that none of them can do "magic" or control the elements. There is nothing supernatural about it.

Now, couple of questions -

1. Can you cause another person to physically feel something?

2. Is the energy you release measurable?

I'm trying to get you to explain exactly what a psiball is made up of. Where the energy is coming from. How do you channel it into a "ball"?

Neat backstory but not the point at all.

Details. That is what I am looking for.

Nibs

_______________________________

Additional thought -

Your family or ancestory is Shamanism? They also manipulate energy but they can't help you?

Nibs

I'm getting tired, here, Nibs... Psi balls are made up of energy. Everything has energy. It depends on the person making the ball what they consider energy. I pull energy from everything around me, another person, a machine, the ground, the electricity itself, anything. I have a friend who is willing to let me send my balls of energy into her (even if it hurts). People who practice a lot of meditation, Psychics, Yoga, even Karate, they all know about your Chakra's and Psi balls. Psi balls are like Chi balls, it's all energy. You can actually feel it if you can actually do it. I haven't tried to measure the energy (b/c I don't know how), but if I expand my hands, the ball/area that I'm concentrating for the energy to go to, it builds there. You make it into a ball by practicing molding it into a ball. If you don't and you lose centration, the energy goes everywhere and you lose it. Imagine sucking up energy from around you into your hands. Imagine what you're cupping in your hands as a ball. A quick way to prove that you made one is to feel if your hands get warm and you really should feel a magnetic energy when you try to slowly place both hands together (like when you're praying). Or, there are these Psi Ball fans you can construct. You fold a square piece of sticky note and place it on a pin. If you can make the sticky note twirl or even move (NOT blowing on it or touching it), but concentrate your ball to move the note, it should move. I've done it, but I've never been able to move the paper in a 360 degree. Only 180.

Like I said, I don't trust Shamans. I don't trust my Mother or my Grandmother to help me... correctly. If I go to them, they will try to manipulate me in some way or form (it's their expertise, and I learned it from them). Imagine old evil small Asian women. THAT'S THEM. They have their potions, their paper money for the Ancestors, their horns (it's a tool, not on their head), their rice, their incense sticks, their whole shrine that house the Ancestor's, they basically have the whole shabang. It's also how they get their money. I've seen what Shaman's have done when a Shaman goes... "wrong". I don't mess with them and I don't trust them. It's my nature to be suspicious of anyone with special abilities and they are aware of it. It's easy to go bad and you don't want their anger directed at you.

The whole Psi ball thing started because I was accidentally hurting myself with my own balls (and believe me, they hurt like h3ll). BUT- I don't want to accidentally hurt someone else with a ball of energy around, I want to know how I can just dispell it with out hurting someone I don't intend to. Like my dog, for example, I don't want him to accidentally get hurt.

If you don't know the answer, please refrain from posting more on this topic. Go and pester someone else who has the time to play with you.

And Nibs... Tell me HOW you are not afraid of the Supernatural? All these writer's and researchers say that a Ghost/Spirit cannot hurt you. I disagree. There are those that can hurt you and my mind still won't grasp that it's normal to see them. How are you not afraid of it? Granted, it's more of the unknown that I'm afraid of it. But STILL.

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I asked questions. Yeah, I don't believe, mainly because there is no evidence.

I asked her questions. The story doesn't make sense to me. There are particular ways energy works. This is not one of them.

She is claiming to be able to produce pain in another person.

Yeah, fine, no bashing but is it really bashing to just question the validity?

Nibs

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I'm getting tired, here, Nibs... Psi balls are made up of energy. Everything has energy. It depends on the person making the ball what they consider energy. I pull energy from everything around me, another person, a machine, the ground, the electricity itself, anything. I have a friend who is willing to let me send my balls of energy into her (even if it hurts). People who practice a lot of meditation, Psychics, Yoga, even Karate, they all know about your Chakra's and Psi balls. Psi balls are like Chi balls, it's all energy. You can actually feel it if you can actually do it. I haven't tried to measure the energy (b/c I don't know how), but if I expand my hands, the ball/area that I'm concentrating for the energy to go to, it builds there. You make it into a ball by practicing molding it into a ball. If you don't and you lose centration, the energy goes everywhere and you lose it. Imagine sucking up energy from around you into your hands. Imagine what you're cupping in your hands as a ball. A quick way to prove that you made one is to feel if your hands get warm and you really should feel a magnetic energy when you try to slowly place both hands together (like when you're praying). Or, there are these Psi Ball fans you can construct. You fold a square piece of sticky note and place it on a pin. If you can make the sticky note twirl or even move (NOT blowing on it or touching it), but concentrate your ball to move the note, it should move. I've done it, but I've never been able to move the paper in a 360 degree. Only 180.

Types of energy

I'm asking you valid questions. I'm not being rude. I'm not being accusatory.

Where in your body do you store this energy before "releasing" it?

I have NEVER seen demonstration like you described that was anything more than very explainable every day things, drafts, heat, etc. Nothing unexplainable.

Like I said, I don't trust Shamans. I don't trust my Mother or my Grandmother to help me... correctly. If I go to them, they will try to manipulate me in some way or form (it's their expertise, and I learned it from them). Imagine old evil small Asian women. THAT'S THEM. They have their potions, their paper money for the Ancestors, their horns (it's a tool, not on their head), their rice, their incense sticks, their whole shrine that house the Ancestor's, they basically have the whole shabang. It's also how they get their money. I've seen what Shaman's have done when a Shaman goes... "wrong". I don't mess with them and I don't trust them. It's my nature to be suspicious of anyone with special abilities and they are aware of it. It's easy to go bad and you don't want their anger directed at you.

Ok, fine, you don't trust your family. Sad but it happens.

The whole Psi ball thing started because I was accidentally hurting myself with my own balls (and believe me, they hurt like h3ll). BUT- I don't want to accidentally hurt someone else with a ball of energy around, I want to know how I can just dispell it with out hurting someone I don't intend to. Like my dog, for example, I don't want him to accidentally get hurt.

If you don't know the answer, please refrain from posting more on this topic. Go and pester someone else who has the time to play with you.

What do you mean "hurting yourself with my own balls"? You were just sitting and wham, energy bursts? You were mediating?

What made you decide it was a psiball and not something medical?

I'm not playing games.

And Nibs... Tell me HOW you are not afraid of the Supernatural? All these writer's and researchers say that a Ghost/Spirit cannot hurt you. I disagree. There are those that can hurt you and my mind still won't grasp that it's normal to see them. How are you not afraid of it? Granted, it's more of the unknown that I'm afraid of it. But STILL.

I'm not afraid of it at all. Been around it all my life. Nothing that doesn't have a simple explanation. Been to haunted houses. Stayed all night. Done the seance stuff. Done the psychic stuff.

I don't make decisions without research.

Nibs

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...yeah.

It sounds like there may be some other issues going on here that have nothing to do with psiballs.

Not really interested in this thread anymore, it's like a minefield at this point and I don't want to lose a foot. C-ya!~

I also find your avatar to be peaceful.

I'm not offended easily or miffed by what you've said. I used to be just like you. However, what you've said or believe doesn't change what's happening in my life. In the end, I want to thank you anyway for trying to learn something new- even if it's not for you.

I wish I could still be just like you. Ignorant and naive. However, I've come to the conclusion that everything has happened for a reason and God has put me through my trials to prepare me for what's a head. I hope you never cross someone's path who is aware they have talents. You won't have anything to protect yourself. Take a moment to just imagine if it was all real?

I'm being honest. I wouldn't help you if something did happen because you're not part of my clan or real to me. But at least I warned you.

In the end, I will find a way. Thank you everyone for your time today. It's very interesting to have learned a little about everyone who posted here. But it doesn't seem as though anyone here is knowledgable enough or at my level. My search continues on my own.

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I'm ignorant and naive, huh? I prefer realistic and down-to-earth. Relying on proof and evidence is FAR from "ignorant and naive".

As for "crossing someone's path with talents" - tell them to bring it. I'd love to see someone try to prove it to me. I've been asking people to do it for some time but nobody seems to be able to step up. Bring the whole clan if you have to, let's see what you can do - but I'm forced to guess not much.

Edited by Moonie2012

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