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TheSearcher

Mayan Calendar does not end in 2012 after all

37 posts in this topic

The article was found in a Dutch science magasine, so I'll add the google translations page here and will put the link to the original dutch article.

What it comes down to is this :

The recalculation comes from the thesis done by nature scientist Andreas Fuls, three years ago, used for his doctorate at the Technical University Berlin. Fuls pointed out that the GMT-correlation is not consistent with the preserved Mayan tables on which the positions of Venus are listed. More even, there are the inscriptions and objects, which in the times of Goodman, Martinez and Thompson were not detected yet or which are now outdated. By adding it all together, Fuls comes up with a very different dating: one that has shifted 208 years. The end of the long count by the correlation is only in about two centuries, December, 2220.

Google translate link

Original dutch article

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interesting, too bad hollywood have gotten their hands on it, which makes 2012 fact now XD

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The article was found in a Dutch science magasine, so I'll add the google translations page here and will put the link to the original dutch article.

What it comes down to is this :

The recalculation comes from the thesis done by nature scientist Andreas Fuls, three years ago, used for his doctorate at the Technical University Berlin. Fuls pointed out that the GMT-correlation is not consistent with the preserved Mayan tables on which the positions of Venus are listed. More even, there are the inscriptions and objects, which in the times of Goodman, Martinez and Thompson were not detected yet or which are now outdated. By adding it all together, Fuls comes up with a very different dating: one that has shifted 208 years. The end of the long count by the correlation is only in about two centuries, December, 2220.

Google translate link

Original dutch article

well at least i should be dead by the time the next OMG MAYANS SAID THE WORLD WILL END rubbish will come along

didn't some1 calculate it ended sometime in the 17 or 1800's

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If it being used by hollywood makes a thing true, then where the hell is that moonsized battlestation I ordered last month??

More on topic, I'll look up if someone calculated it to the 1800's or earlier. Cause as far as I know, nobody did, I could be mistaken though.

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Once 2012 passes, someone here who firmly believes in the great cosmic event of 2012 (that never happened) will remember this articls and start the ball rolling again. This is perfect for sitchin who can rework his calculations in his next book and he will be dead and buried long before that time comes. I am also sure that some conspiracy theorist will post to tell us that the story was plant to keep us from the truth that Nibiru will show up in 2012 to wreak havok on this world.

Edited by digitalartist

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As long as you remember that plenty of us here have said clearly that 2012 is not the end of the world at all but a change in our concept of it.

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As long as you remember that plenty of us here have said clearly that 2012 is not the end of the world at all but a change in our concept of it.

I doubt even that, because for any kind of concept to change, there must be an event precipitating said change. That is not something that just happens because a year passes. No reaction without action and a change in perception or conception is clearly a reaction.

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Notice how all the other threads have thousands of replies, but everyone ignores this. It's like some people want it to happen?!!!

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Notice how all the other threads have thousands of replies, but everyone ignores this. It's like some people want it to happen?!!!

Of course they want it to happen, the desire for the world to end is part of the reason why people come up with this nonsense in the first place.

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Of course they want it to happen, the desire for the world to end is part of the reason why people come up with this nonsense in the first place.

Mainly because they have nothing else to look forward to, hence the fear mongering.

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interesting, too bad hollywood have gotten their hands on it, which makes 2012 fact now XD

i know.

its set in stone now. and everyone buys it.

blow up hollywood? anyone in?

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i know.

its set in stone now. and everyone buys it.

blow up hollywood? anyone in?

Sounds like a plan to me :D:P

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Really no one knows, there have been more civilizations that figured the world would end not just the Mayans, theres books detailing the apocolypse (Holy Bible). :huh:

Greek figured that the world would end in this decade, so did egyptians (not this date later) and other countries throughout the world, at different times... :alien:

Frankly Hollywood blew up the preportions for entertainment sakes, do you think that they have some secret writter that can see the future, and thats where their getting these stories from?

Change, change is inevitable whether any skeptic, believer, or the people who just don't care... Example; What was the TV like for the 60s generation?? What about cellphones? Pictures?? :ph34r:

To put it blankly, the most likely scenario of the "Earth's Demise" is what scientists found out about the Sun and Earths "joining" this is no concept, its reality, and they believe that this is what heats us at exactly the right temperature... :yes:

Most people just go off of heresay, where the people who think for themselves, read multiple articles, papers, thesis', etc...

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/news-release/releases/2001/01-71.htm

This basicaly reads out how the Sun and the Earth are connected, its a good read and it may get people thinking. :tu:

Now think of a solar flare in that same area? Cooked chicken, human, cow, dog, cat, tree, and whales...Nothing could avoid it...Greeks believe that from a planet leaving its normal tregection will get close to the sun and send off heat that will kill us (most likely along the lines mentioned). Egyptians tell of the same thing... Even the Romans regarded the sun Sol at the ultimate god, Sols tribute would always come first. Too many other countries, religions, etc. to mention, I mean even Norse mythology is included here... :blink:

Also if anyone had ever actualy read articles about 2012, scientists themselves said that they could be off by a decade... Which might have triggered what changed the world at that time, and is still changing the world, 9/11. Or perhaps it will be 2022, but the fact of the matter is, its better to be prepared than wishing you were... B)

Hope this got you all thinking,

G3N0M3

[Just had to add in smilies]

Edited by G3N0M3

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Many people don't realise that Apocalypse is from the Greek word Ἀποκάλυψις Apokálypsis; meaning "lifting of the veil" or "revelation"; which means that nobody is saying it is the end, but a change, a revelation, the ushering in of a new age. In this, many of the prophets seem to agree.....

Edited by tinieblas

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Really no one knows, there have been more civilizations that figured the world would end not just the Mayans, theres books detailing the apocolypse (Holy Bible). :huh:

Sorry but the bible never gives an accurate time period, only vague prophecies. By definition open to interpretation hence not reliable and biaised.

Greek figured that the world would end in this decade, so did egyptians (not this date later) and other countries throughout the world, at different times... :alien:

Care to give some examples on where the Greek and the Egyptians say this?

Frankly Hollywood blew up the preportions for entertainment sakes, do you think that they have some secret writter that can see the future, and thats where their getting these stories from?

They are getting their stories from a very fertile imagination, that's for sure.

Change, change is inevitable whether any skeptic, believer, or the people who just don't care... Example; What was the TV like for the 60s generation?? What about cellphones? Pictures?? :ph34r:

Yes it's called progress and nobody is doubting that. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

To put it blankly, the most likely scenario of the "Earth's Demise" is what scientists found out about the Sun and Earths "joining" this is no concept, its reality, and they believe that this is what heats us at exactly the right temperature... :yes:

Most people just go off of heresay, where the people who think for themselves, read multiple articles, papers, thesis', etc...

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/news-release/releases/2001/01-71.htm

This basicaly reads out how the Sun and the Earth are connected, its a good read and it may get people thinking. :tu:

Now think of a solar flare in that same area? Cooked chicken, human, cow, dog, cat, tree, and whales...Nothing could avoid it...

That article does not describe earth's demise at all, it describes a fundamental physical processes, it has been going on for eons and will keep going on for eons. Nowhere in the article do they claim that "this is what heats us at exactly the right temperature", nor does it talk about "demise".

The fact that you think a solar flare would have any influence "on the same spot" shows that you have not understood the article. It is in the distant reconnection region of the tail, on the night side of Earth, where the solar wind enters the magnetosphere. A solar flare comes full frontal, the day side. They cannot happen in the same area!. No cooking to be found, sorry.

Reading an article is nice, understanding it is a totally different matter.

Greeks believe that from a planet leaving its normal tregection will get close to the sun and send off heat that will kill us (most likely along the lines mentioned). Egyptians tell of the same thing... Even the Romans regarded the sun Sol at the ultimate god, Sols tribute would always come first. Too many other countries, religions, etc. to mention, I mean even Norse mythology is included here... :blink:

Solar worship can be found all over the world, yes, but not as prevalent as you make it sound. For example the romans did not worship the sun till emperor Aurelian made it the state religion in 274 CE. But lets not disgress.

Could you tell me, where exactly, you found the bit about the greeks and Egyptians talking about a planet leaving it's trajectory (or rather more correctly orbit) and being roasted by the sun's heat?

Also if anyone had ever actualy read articles about 2012, scientists themselves said that they could be off by a decade... Which might have triggered what changed the world at that time, and is still changing the world, 9/11. Or perhaps it will be 2022, but the fact of the matter is, its better to be prepared than wishing you were... B)

Hope this got you all thinking,

G3N0M3

[Just had to add in smilies]

I read the articles about 2012, it's only the one I posted, that allows for this 220 years error in the calculation of the mayan calandar. If you however refer to the 2012 phenomenon and hype, I consider it a load of b******s anyway.

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Funny how the date wants to change now that 2012 is quickly approaching :rolleyes: .

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Sorry but the bible never gives an accurate time period, only vague prophecies. By definition open to interpretation hence not reliable and biaised.

Yes it does not tell of an accurate time period, and when does it other than kings, and sons and daughters of kings? It does not tell the exact year that he created man, nor does it describe how long or when the earth and solar system was made. As for "vague prophecies" prophecies of this description have been in our history since before Christ was born...

Care to give some examples on where the Greek and the Egyptians say this?

I'll be glad to google search for you, especialy if you are not able to:

http://www.life-cycles-destiny.com/pg/ancient-maya-egypt-civilization.htm

Mentions the Egyptians but only adds to what I'm saying...

http://www.wnponline.org/wnp/wnp0907/egypt-prophecy.htm

Speaks of the bible, their prophecies, and prophecies that intertwine with the Egyptians...

http://www.ccg.org/English/s/p036.html

Is a much more detailed version of Egyptian prophecies...

That should be sufficient information to show you that obviously, you've not searched, and researched enough. Here is some more information about the Greek prophecies but first read where the term Oracle has come from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle#Ancient_civilizations

Greek Prophecies:

Though I've searched for ONLINE reference to Greek prophecies I can't find any relevant links, they are more to do with a third world war, and mostly describe how the world will "fight" its way into the next dark age.

If you want any further information about Greek Mythology, and Greek prophecies, I suggest you go to your local library and look up popular books pertaining to history.

That being said I'm sure you've read many history books I'm sure, I mean you would'nt be commenting unless you've read a cornicopia of books no?

They are getting their stories from a very fertile imagination, that's for sure.

Exactly, the mention of IMAGINATION is the key word in this discussion I'm sure.

Yes it's called progress and nobody is doubting that. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

I'd like to know where your logic to this answer comes from? If you've read and understood what we've said it is not a matter of the Earth being "destroyed" but changed... Especialy with the posters comment about;

"Many people don't realise that Apocalypse is from the Greek word Ἀποκάλυψις Apokálypsis; meaning "lifting of the veil" or "revelation"; which means that nobody is saying it is the end, but a change, a revelation, the ushering in of a new age. In this, many of the prophets seem to agree....."

So unless your unable to comprehend this posters demonstration, you've obviously ignored the post itself....

Here, a couple examples of other theories, and which are much more credible also the first one will be the start of theories of the end of the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#Galactic_alignment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#Doomsday_theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayanism#Basic_beliefs

There are also beliefs in the scientific community that the "end of the world" will be a perpetual increase in development and use of technology. I had read a couple articles about how they depict and measure how the point at which our technology will build to a point that it changes our very fabric of existance. Research this some, as this is the most plausible answer to what 2012 is all about.

That article does not describe earth's demise at all, it describes a fundamental physical processes, it has been going on for eons and will keep going on for eons. Nowhere in the article do they claim that "this is what heats us at exactly the right temperature", nor does it talk about "demise".

The fact that you think a solar flare would have any influence "on the same spot" shows that you have not understood the article. It is in the distant reconnection region of the tail, on the night side of Earth, where the solar wind enters the magnetosphere. A solar flare comes full frontal, the day side. They cannot happen in the same area!. No cooking to be found, sorry.

Reading an article is nice, understanding it is a totally different matter.

Actualy as you've so promptly demonstrated, reading one article is not enough, which the article I gave was an example of the whole subject. If you were to take a day to research this entire concept, then come back to me argueing, but as I'm sure you will, you'll understand more about this fact.

Also I don't understand how your saying that a solar flare going off on the light side of the planet will not effect the planet as a whole??? You're obviously not educated in the feild and area, and I suggest you study up before you try to de-bunk "IF" theories...

Solar worship can be found all over the world, yes, but not as prevalent as you make it sound. For example the romans did not worship the sun till emperor Aurelian made it the state religion in 274 CE. But lets not disgress.

Could you tell me, where exactly, you found the bit about the greeks and Egyptians talking about a planet leaving it's trajectory (or rather more correctly orbit) and being roasted by the sun's heat?

LOL, yes you've found out how to type wikipedia.org into your internet browser and could search Sol in the search box. *Applause*

It still does not prove anything, nor disprove anything I've said, I stated that the sun has been a major part of prophecies, and superstitions since the dawn of man...

As for the articles, and information about Greeks and Egyptians, I don't think I need to waist my time further.

I read the articles about 2012, it's only the one I posted, that allows for this 220 years error in the calculation of the mayan calandar. If you however refer to the 2012 phenomenon and hype, I consider it a load of b******s anyway.

"The articles about 2012"? There have been more than a couple websites, companies, and institutions that devote time and money to preventing, proving, showing, and preparing for 2012... What your preposing is either you've read everyone, or you've read a couple and gained all the knowledge you need to base your belief off of. Which is obviously funny to any professional researcher, and even more interesting to believers and non-believers...

As for your view thats fine, no one is trying to force your decission to THINK about what to do, the fact of the matter is, even if there is going to be a planet wide "extermination" can we avoid it? and will we? At this point were not concerned about the IF its happening, its HOW and the more you research the subject you learn that there WILL be a change, or worse. No matter you believe it or not, even global warming is an example of "the end of days" sure its been happening for years, but only lately have we SEEN the effects. The fact of the matter is not IF its happening but HOW can we slow/stop it?

There are more examples and the such but I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to INFORM you.

G3N0M3

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Yes it does not tell of an accurate time period, and when does it other than kings, and sons and daughters of kings? It does not tell the exact year that he created man, nor does it describe how long or when the earth and solar system was made. As for "vague prophecies" prophecies of this description have been in our history since before Christ was born...

Them being there since before christ was born, does not make them correct or less vague

I'll be glad to google search for you, especialy if you are not able to:

Thanks, since indeed I was not able to do so at the time, having replied to you during lunch time at work, which is only about 30 minutes, research time is precious little. Besides I wanted to know what your sources where, not only online links for that matter, I find the internet to be a bit dubious a source for such things.

Greek Prophecies:

Though I've searched for ONLINE reference to Greek prophecies I can't find any relevant links, they are more to do with a third world war, and mostly describe how the world will "fight" its way into the next dark age.

If you want any further information about Greek Mythology, and Greek prophecies, I suggest you go to your local library and look up popular books pertaining to history.

That being said I'm sure you've read many history books I'm sure, I mean you would'nt be commenting unless you've read a cornicopia of books no?

No need to for the snide remarks friend, I did not make any either. My English might not be on par with all you native speakers, but I do recognise them when I see them. As to the book part, you assumed I wanted online links, when I wanted to know your sources, slight difference, as I said earlier.

And yes, my personal library contains over 3000 books, from science to literature, in different languages. My wife complains about it a lot, to be honest, says it's hard to keep dust free ^_^ .

I'd like to know where your logic to this answer comes from? If you've read and understood what we've said it is not a matter of the Earth being "destroyed" but changed... Especialy with the posters comment about;

So unless your unable to comprehend this posters demonstration, you've obviously ignored the post itself....

Again the snide remark, so I'm going to say it again, not everybody on this forum is a native English speaker, I know I'm not. I understood the post perfectly well, but you'll notice that the people saying "2012 = end of the world / destruction" are more numerous than the ones saying "2012 = change of the world as we know it". I have less of a problem with the latter than the former. Besides I only saw that post after I replied to yours, so what of it?

Here, a couple examples of other theories, and which are much more credible also the first one will be the start of theories of the end of the world:

.....

There are also beliefs in the scientific community that the "end of the world" will be a perpetual increase in development and use of technology. I had read a couple articles about how they depict and measure how the point at which our technology will build to a point that it changes our very fabric of existance. Research this some, as this is the most plausible answer to what 2012 is all about.

Your above links are exactly what I consider to be not credible, things used by con-men to line their pockets with gold. But I actually have no problem in accepting the scientific approach, it makes in itself more sense. The very fabric of our existance is already changed, just consider how many people could actually really survive without something as basic as running water or electricity.

Actualy as you've so promptly demonstrated, reading one article is not enough, which the article I gave was an example of the whole subject. If you were to take a day to research this entire concept, then come back to me argueing, but as I'm sure you will, you'll understand more about this fact.

Also I don't understand how your saying that a solar flare going off on the light side of the planet will not effect the planet as a whole??? You're obviously not educated in the field and area, and I suggest you study up before you try to de-bunk "IF" theories...

I did not say it would not affect the planet as a whole, I said it would not be able to hit in exactly the same spot with the full force of the flare. Hence no cooking. Don't put words in my mouth.

And I never said I was educated in that particilar field, then again, I wager neither are you.

LOL, yes you've found out how to type wikipedia.org into your internet browser and could search Sol in the search box. *Applause*

Seriously, do you have to be so insulting? As far as far as I can tell I wasn't. Besides what makes you say I got it from Wiki? There are more sites to the internet than Wikipedia, I got my info here for example.

It still does not prove anything, nor disprove anything I've said, I stated that the sun has been a major part of prophecies, and superstitions since the dawn of man...

Which I didn't dispute either, I just questioned the scope of those beliefs and superstitions.

As for the articles, and information about Greeks and Egyptians, I don't think I need to waist my time further.

"The articles about 2012"? There have been more than a couple websites, companies, and institutions that devote time and money to preventing, proving, showing, and preparing for 2012... What your preposing is either you've read everyone, or you've read a couple and gained all the knowledge you need to base your belief off of. Which is obviously funny to any professional researcher, and even more interesting to believers and non-believers...

Again with the assumptions, where have I ever said I was a professional researcher? Now you're just making fun of my improper use of English it seems, thanks for letting me know in that my English is not good enough, cheers for that.

For someone who allegedly is only here to inform, you show a great deal of contempt and insult towards others.

As for your view thats fine, no one is trying to force your decission to THINK about what to do, the fact of the matter is, even if there is going to be a planet wide "extermination" can we avoid it? and will we? At this point were not concerned about the IF its happening, its HOW and the more you research the subject you learn that there WILL be a change, or worse. No matter you believe it or not, even global warming is an example of "the end of days" sure its been happening for years, but only lately have we SEEN the effects. The fact of the matter is not IF its happening but HOW can we slow/stop it?

There are more examples and the such but I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to INFORM you.

G3N0M3

Somehow, I feel I should ask why the contempt, but to be honest, leave it be, not interested in the slightest anymore. Your nice reply cured me of that.

A bon entendeur, je vous salue Monsieur.

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For those of you who are interested in the astronomical - astrological origins of Christianity, you might want to check this video: Precession

It relates to the mention of ages in the bible and other scriptures, the second coming with the age of Aquarius etch.

No catastrophes or "the end of the word theories" here...but interesting nevertheless.

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Actually sorry if it sounded "harsh" I did not mean any unintended remarks so sorry again if you took them the wrong way.

Also I did not have any problems with understanding your English, and its quite good so you don't have to worry about that, I mean I live in Canada, everyone has to deal with separate languages so sorry if it sounded like I was being harsh or snide, again not intentional.

Yeah I figured either you did not have to much time, or either you were just lazy :)

As for you wanting to know my sources I know exactly what you mean, and we see it so much here in UM where someone chances upon a website and takes the written word as literal sense. Which does not make much of it at all... Oh and allot of those places except Wikipedia I did not entirely read personally, I've mostly read books from libraries, but I find to promptly show someone and let them read for themselves I can just link information along the lines of what I link.

Lol, yeah more people talk about the "end of the world" because they have no clue about it, and most of it comes from either movies or heresay, where people don't actually know anything of the subject but just tell people what they think of it as FACT, meanwhile its only THEORY...

Oh those links were from wiki so they were only theories of the subject, still not fact... The only fact that we have right now in our current knowledge is what scientists, mathematicians, and researchers have found about technology and its perpetual effect.

About a solar flare, I admit I have no degree in astrology, and astrological phenomena, but I am a "professional researcher" where I will write out small books about each subject, information of it, where it comes from, if they are credible or not, and history of the institute/professor. So that being said if you research books, and information online about solar flares, and other astrological phenomena you will learn that a solar flare is actually on the top of the list to "What-If"...

I think thats enough of a response, again sorry if any of my remarks were demeaning, insulting, or snide in any way it was not intentionally that, it was however though intentionally a crack at humor, but I guess it was not along your lines, sorry for that.

G3N0M3

[bTW I like your signature quotes]

Edited by G3N0M3

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Actually sorry if it sounded "harsh" I did not mean any unintended remarks so sorry again if you took them the wrong way.

Also I did not have any problems with understanding your English, and its quite good so you don't have to worry about that, I mean I live in Canada, everyone has to deal with separate languages so sorry if it sounded like I was being harsh or snide, again not intentional.

Yeah I figured either you did not have to much time, or either you were just lazy :)

As for you wanting to know my sources I know exactly what you mean, and we see it so much here in UM where someone chances upon a website and takes the written word as literal sense. Which does not make much of it at all... Oh and allot of those places except Wikipedia I did not entirely read personally, I've mostly read books from libraries, but I find to promptly show someone and let them read for themselves I can just link information along the lines of what I link.

Lol, yeah more people talk about the "end of the world" because they have no clue about it, and most of it comes from either movies or heresay, where people don't actually know anything of the subject but just tell people what they think of it as FACT, meanwhile its only THEORY...

Oh those links were from wiki so they were only theories of the subject, still not fact... The only fact that we have right now in our current knowledge is what scientists, mathematicians, and researchers have found about technology and its perpetual effect.

About a solar flare, I admit I have no degree in astrology, and astrological phenomena, but I am a "professional researcher" where I will write out small books about each subject, information of it, where it comes from, if they are credible or not, and history of the institute/professor. So that being said if you research books, and information online about solar flares, and other astrological phenomena you will learn that a solar flare is actually on the top of the list to "What-If"...

I think thats enough of a response, again sorry if any of my remarks were demeaning, insulting, or snide in any way it was not intentionally that, it was however though intentionally a crack at humor, but I guess it was not along your lines, sorry for that.

G3N0M3

[bTW I like your signature quotes]

No worries mate, I think we both had a "bleh" moment there. I know I had one reading it, was after a long day, which means that sometimes my humor gets flushed through the toilet. I should apologise as well for me own response, you can check, I usually only react that way when presented with total and utter nonsense, which your post was not in fact (and hind sight lol, cause you make good points).

I do realize that we arrive more or less at the same conclusion though, 2012 and the end of the world is no more than heresay, theory and in some cases even nonsense.

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Notice how all the other threads have thousands of replies, but everyone ignores this. It's like some people want it to happen?!!!

Some want it to happen and some can't stand that their great god Sitchin could be wrong.

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Like G says it! I think there is not really any more I can add; if people still choose to misunderstand and deny what is being presented (being therefore guilty of what we are being accused of doing) after all of his excellent links and information, then we can't possibily convince them! Time, however, will surely do the job for us.

Thanks for all of those very interesting links by the way, mate.

Edited by tinieblas

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Like G says it! I think there is not really any more I can add; if people still choose to misunderstand and deny what is being presented (being therefore guilty of what we are being accused of doing) after all of his excellent links and information, then we can't possibily convince them! Time, however, will surely do the job for us.

Thanks for all of those very interesting links by the way, mate.

Out of curiosity, what did you understand from G? And did you actually ask him if that is what he is thinking?

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No worries mate, I think we both had a "bleh" moment there. I know I had one reading it, was after a long day, which means that sometimes my humor gets flushed through the toilet. I should apologise as well for me own response, you can check, I usually only react that way when presented with total and utter nonsense, which your post was not in fact (and hind sight lol, cause you make good points).

I do realize that we arrive more or less at the same conclusion though, 2012 and the end of the world is no more than heresay, theory and in some cases even nonsense.

No problem, everyone has their ups and downs, but the same thing gets under my skin. People who will just be one sided, one directional, and perpetualy throwing themselves into glass windows, getting bigger and bigger, as they get deeper and deeper into their self conceived versions of the world.

I'f your interested in how I post and the subjects I touch on you should visit my thread called Waisting Time? - Skeptics vs. Believers. A lot of information is given and I'm sure you will understand where I'm coming from after reading my posts there.

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