The Top One Reason Religion Is Harmful

[Goblin-5]

Tel me if...homosexuality was never mentioned in the bible.............would it mean they didnt have gays back then? and gays are like a new trend?

Or if murder was never mentioned....would it mean man didnt kill anyone back then?

think about it mate... its not rocket science lol

I think that homosexuality is mentioned more in passing than as a cardinal sin unlike murder or adultery isnt it?. I think the absence of a vile act such as child molestation would indicate that it was either condoned as normal or very hidden and rare indeed. When you have dietary restrictions taking precedence over sexual matters I would think that the latter would be very low on the totem pole of issues of import to societial functioning no?

[Beckys_Mom]

I think that homosexuality is mentioned more in passing than as a cardinal sin unlike murder or adultery isnt it?.

The word IF might be small but it has a big meaning......you read my post wrongly...I said IF homosexuality was never mentioned, would it mean they didnt have gays back then? IE if it didnt read - he who lays with another male may the blood be on his head<---obviously seen like a crime against god....but say IF it were never mentioned...does that mean there were no gays back then?

Same with murder...IF murder was never mentioned in the bible...would that mean they just didnt do that back then?

Please direct my actual questions...thanks

Edited December 2, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Goblin-5]

The word IF might be small but it has a big meaning......you read my post wrongly...I said IF homosexuality was never mentioned, would it mean they didnt have gays back then? IE if it didnt read - he who lays with another male may the blood be on his head<---obviously seen like a crime against god....but say IF it were never mentioned...does that mean there were no gays back then?

Same with murder...IF murder was never mentioned in the bible...would that mean they just didnt do that back then?

Please direct my actual questions...thanks

If it were not mentioned that obviously does not preclude its existance, but equally it does not mean that it existed. Lesbianism is not mentioned but I am reasonably sure that it existed. For sure every sexual more existed in Roman cities so one would expect that tye would be found in Roman occupied territories

[Beckys_Mom]

If it were not mentioned that obviously does not preclude its existance,

There you go then...my point exactly....therefore just because the bible doesnt speak directly against child rape, doesn't mean it did not ever take place

but equally it does not mean that it existed

How so?? I mean the bible is not a document of the days and lives of every last hebrew that ever lived back then.... seem to me you are throwing in an arguement for the sake of it... when you know I made a perfectly good point

Lesbianism is not mentioned

Lesbians are gay..aka homosexuals...and yes that cover it all..............

but I am reasonably sure that it existed

Well i could adopt your attitude and say... it doesnt mean they existed <------but I don't think like that...I work with what is logical ..not trying to sound offensive but seriously...

Jesus actual birth date is not mentioned...so I guess he never existed <-----LMAO talk about turning the tables eh?

Or The bible doesnt mention how often moses went to the toilet, does this mean he was forever constipated?...maybe ancient hebrews just didnt poop?

Jokes aside..you saw my point and you just proved it.....just because the bible has not documented things that goes on naturally in an everyday life...doesn't mean it didnt ever happen

Edited December 2, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Goblin-5]

Jesus actual birth date is not mentioned...so I guess he never existed

No it could just mean he was not born by your logic but we do know that he existed or at least someone with the name Jesus existed in Judea since the Romans executed a man of that name. Whether Jesus was God or simply a deranged Jew is an open question

Or The bible doesnt mention how often moses went to the toilet, does this mean he was forever constipated

Might explain why they are so irritable killing and plundering every which way . You could argue that this is proof that ExLax did not exist back then

Jokes aside..you saw my point and you just proved it.....just because the bible has not documented things that goes on naturally in an everyday life...doesn't mean it didnt ever happen

True enough but you have taken that premise and taken it further to say that it is possible that they were expunged from the document by other people/institutions. To assume that because it was not mentioned that an act such as child rape was so common as to not warrant either mention or censure is an unjustifiable leap of logic no? The Bible equally does not give recepies for cooking meals but that doesnt mean that they were expunged by the early Church. I am sure that the Hebrews had their own version of Julia Child or indeed Gordon Ramsey

Edited December 2, 2009 by Goblin-5

[+Sherapy]

There you go then...my point exactly....therefore just because the bible doesnt speak directly against child rape, doesn't mean it did not ever take place

How so?? I mean the bible is not a document of the days and lives of every last hebrew that ever lived back then.... seem to me you are throwing in an arguement for the sake of it... when you know I made a perfectly good point

Lesbians are gay..aka homosexuals...and yes that cover it all..............

Well i could adopt your attitude and say... it doesnt mean they existed <------but I don't think like that...I work with what is logical ..not trying to sound offensive but seriously...

Jesus actual birth date is not mentioned...so I guess he never existed <-----LMAO talk about turning the tables eh?

Or The bible doesnt mention how often moses went to the toilet, does this mean he was forever constipated?...maybe ancient hebrews just didnt poop?

Jokes aside..you saw my point and you just proved it.....just because the bible has not documented things that goes on naturally in an everyday life...doesn't mean it didnt ever happen

Excellent counter, Sis!!!!

Edited December 2, 2009 by S♥ ♥ ♥

[Beckys_Mom]

True enough but you have taken that premise and taken it further to say that it is possible that they were expunged from the document by other people/institutions. A leap of logic no? The Bible equally does not give recepies for cooking meals but that doesnt mean that they were expunged by the early Church. I am sure that the Hebrews had their own version of Julia Child or indeed Gordon Ramsey

Fact is simple... it is absurd to think that what seems natural to man (even the sick things that sick people find natural) if not mentioned in the bible, then it just didnt happen .that is illogical and absurd......for it mentioned rape on a woman...so rape was in the minds back then but only limited to an adult female? this is why it is absurd and illogical to claim it might not have ever happened.....I say it did...and I dont need proof..

When we speak of what comes natural to the minds of man... its not like we are speaking of objects...IE Cars... the bible doesnt mention that Mary and Joesph travelled to the stables in a Ferrari F 50....for we know cars didnt exist back then...get me now?

No it could just mean he was not born by your logic but we do know that he existed or at least someone with teh name Jesus existed in Judea since the Romans executed a man of that name. Whether Jesus was God or simply a deranged Jew is an open question

It was a joke but hey.....if his birth date is not mentioned... then logic tells us that maybe he just was never born and they speak of some other guy...but I don't believe gods son has walked the earth..

Mightt explain why they are so irritable killing and plundering every which way

.Well it does explain a lot with the stories that just don't make sense

the authors suffered from constipation LMAO

Edited December 2, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

Excellent counter, Sis!!!!

Hee hee scroll back a page or two...the tears will streem down your face with laughter when you are done reading

[Bluefinger]

It's this: Religion is ultimately dependent on belief in invisible beings, inaudible voices, intangible entities, undetectable forces, and events and judgments that happen after we die.

It therefore has no reality check.

Religion is not dependent on belief in invisible things. Religion is dependent on people to make of it what their culture or ruler wants to. Religion is a culture maker (or destroyer.)

When it comes to the Gospel, it's different. The Gospel isn't supposed to create culture or destroy it. The Gospel is supposed to refine cultures everywhere. Religion is about what we do to get to God. Therefore it makes no sense when it comes to us trying to actually to get to something we can't see. We lack the terminology to describe God when we approach Him from religiocity.

The Gospel says that God got to us. The effort is on God's part and therefore it is up to God to reveal Himself, instead of us approaching Him. The crazy catch is made often evident in science: That there are uncontrolled forces that shape us and control us, yet we are ever so responsible for the misdeeds we do. It's a catch 22.

Religion makes no sense. I agree. That is because it is coming from people.....who live in futility of thought.

[Goblin-5]

Fact is simple... it is absurd to think that what seems natural to man (even the sick things that sick people find natural) if not mentioned in the bible, then it just didnt happen .that is illogical and absurd......for it mentioned rape on a woman...so rape was in the minds back then but only limited to an adult female? this is why it is absurd and illogical to claim it might not have ever happened.....I say it did...and I dont need proof..

So you take it on faith them? How is that different from religion?

When we speak of what comes natural to the minds of man... its not like we are speaking of objects...IE Cars... the bible doesnt mention that Mary and Joesph travelled to the stables in a Ferrari F 50....for we know cars didnt exist back then...get me now?

That assumes that rape, child molestation etc come naturally to the mind of man (and woman lets be fair to the cougars out there) Somehow I dont think that is a valid point/assumption. I still hold that you are drawing unsupported conclusions based on your own inherent bias(es) The sexual practices of peoples are seldom mentioned in any ancient texts (except the Kama Sutra which is not a religous text) so why hold the Bible to a different standard?

Edited December 3, 2009 by Goblin-5

[Beckys_Mom]

That assumes that rape, child molestation etc come naturally to the mind of man (and woman lets be fair to the cougars out there) Somehow I dont think that is a valid point/assumption

My talk about splitting hairs... ok if you must

Lust comes naturally to the minds od mankind... (in general)

Rape... A lot people find it a natural recation and urge to hold...hence to WHY they do it

Rape on women...men..and children ...all included..............absurd and silly to think its not...the bible itself speaks on how it was encouraged in the OT

now if you argue it doesnt.......then its clear you are just arguing for the sheer hell of it...OR you want me to think you clearly are blind by logic

and somehow support that because the bible dont mention it...it might not have happened ....as if the bible was a document of the days and private lives of every last hebrew that ever lived back then...you are so very much sadly mistaken

Ohh and if you are going to answer my posts.....can you do it outside the quote tabs? it makes it harder to reply to you directly...

So you take it on faith them? How is that different from religion

I take it from pure logic......its like stating the obvious...you seem to be the only one to date that dont grasp this

tell you what... the bible doesnt mention how jesus never broke wind... so I guess he never let one go...OR...maybe hebrews never broke wind...why? well the bible is a documentation of the days and lives of hebrews and what went on in private...so then it MUST be correct!!!

But then seee the bible may not direct anything that says its morally wrong to sexually abuse a child......but according to the OT it encourages it....sick but see below ...feel free to look up each verse I just posted

Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14) .......................like I said look any of these verses up for yourself

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

and yet there it is ...clearly stating rape on children is OK ...so I guess they did do it back then and worse!!! No wonder the bible doesn't direct anything to say its wrong to rape a child....it encourages it on the OT!! pure evil ...the entire OT is pure evil even..

Edited December 3, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[+Sherapy]

Religion is not dependent on belief in invisible things. Religion is dependent on people to make of it what their culture or ruler wants to. Religion is a culture maker (or destroyer.)

When it comes to the Gospel, it's different. The Gospel isn't supposed to create culture or destroy it. The Gospel is supposed to refine cultures everywhere. Religion is about what we do to get to God. Therefore it makes no sense when it comes to us trying to actually to get to something we can't see. We lack the terminology to describe God when we approach Him from religiocity.

The Gospel says that God got to us. The effort is on God's part and therefore it is up to God to reveal Himself, instead of us approaching Him. The crazy catch is made often evident in science: That there are uncontrolled forces that shape us and control us, yet we are ever so responsible for the misdeeds we do. It's a catch 22.

Religion makes no sense. I agree. That is because it is coming from people.....who live in futility of thought.

Perhaps its because its a practice one has to apply in their daily living.....its about the person you are, how your behavior affects the whole.....

[Mr Walker]

name='Beckys_Mom' date='01 December 2009 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1259661529' post='3190868']

So according to you, those that don't hold the same beliefs as you...but take ill just the same as what you did... medical science wouldnt have saved them? thats is nonsense and ignorant to say the least

Belief may have nothing to do with it, and certainly one doesnt have to have a christian belief. God acts to his own agenda, and can intervene in anyones lives. He did this with me when i was certain there was no such thing as god. Belief does two things. It allows us to recognise the nature of gods intervention, and it allows us to chose to work with god in the healing process, rather than against him or independently from him.

Then that makes me out to be a sensible and logical person....for I did suffer from cancer....but used science and prayer for treatment...still do .. (only becuase I havent reached the 5 year all clear as yet)

BUT.....there is no way a person can b cured from cancer without science...impossible

Your first point is a factual observation. Your second point is a belief statement and it happens to be wrong.

I know one person personally who was cured (basically overnigh)t of a life threatening cancer. God told him he was going to remove the cancer before he did, and then did so between one medical observation and the next.

Doctors said it was spontaneous remission and one of the most remarkable and complete they had ever witnessed. But the patient knew better. God had explained what he was going to do, and then caried out that promise. Why would anyone actively deny or disbelieve after experiencing this?

One has to assume a position of disbelief to deny gods involvement in this physical healing.

No I was thinking like any other logical person would think... thinking about the real world - reality...and as I know the history of the caveman, it helped me with my line of thinking....... besides I dont know how an atheist would think...i've never been one...

But like I told you previously.......if you want to live in a world with no science what so ever...then you may as well go live your life in a cave....I meant that seriously....for its the only way to do it

What? lol Walker with no rain what so ever.how do you suppose man could survive without water?

You see, again you are thinking in terms determined by your present knowledge. Yes that is how the world is now. But the point is that (biblically) the world was not always physically as it is now. Before the flood the climate and atmospherics are described very differently. There was a higher water and oxygen content in the air for example. (whether this was just in eden or in the whole world is not clear. There was no rain (remember the first rainbow bbilically appeared only after the flood) Water came from dew, air borne moisture etc.

So according to you.........if man wanted to live in a science free world.....it would need to be on a different planet..because even your own bible speaks of all weathers lol..... and no dangerous animals <---- you wouldnt be living on gods green earth......... so you would need to be on another planet..one that has nothing but friendly little animals, sunshine non stop and all is dandy......and can survive without drinking water......now thats a perfect description of dream land.seriously!!!

No. The same earth, but as it was in eden and will be according to the bible, on the new earth. Animals will not kill or eat each other nor be a threat to man(the lamb will lie down with the lion) There are ways within a water cycle for there to be plenty of water for human consumption without it actually raining, although because we are used to the world as it is we find it difficult to appreciate this. According to the bible it did not rain in eden yet adam and eve had no trouble surviving If there was enough water for plants and animals then certainly there was enough for humans.

Probably because I don't live in a dream world.....I live in reality and view things in reality Mr Walker...LOL

And the reality is Mr Walker, you would not survive in your dream world with no rain ect... key words are reality not a dream world...

Ahhhhhhhhh to live in a little dream world.... I guess utopia would be great, pity its not part of the real world then eh?

Hey Mr walker...when I challenged you, I challenged you in reality terms not what you dream of with out reality...I speak about the real world, you speak of something you dream of!!... and you still try and debate it? this doesnt remotely make any sense

Well that might be your perception I thiought you were asking if i would rather live in a world without science or a world without god. I answered honestly In a world where we are one with god science is not necessary. You can call it a dream world but your question was hypothetical and to anse\wer it onlty a hypothetical answer is possible.

Lets all make up little dream worlds..were reality doesn't exist..hey get the atheists involved...they too can dream up a world with no rain, no cold weather, no dangerous animals, no bad things happening... anyone can dream of a world like that Mr Walker... but its just wishful thinking!!!

Of course, but if, by living a way of life, you can make that dream come true (or at least contribute to it) then the dream is both useful and productive. Wouldn't you like to live in a world without hate, where people treated each other with love? Where there was no pain suffering or death? Wouldnt you like just to live in a world where you didnt have to lock your cars or houses, where no one was raped, where all had a fair share of the earths resources and no one needed to take drugs or alcohol just to get through their lives.?

Mr Walker with respect, if you wish to take this further, can you at least address it in the terms of a real world that we do actually live in and not some dream land like utopia? I'm not being funny..im serious...... My daughter would love to live in a dream world too filled with sweets non stop and a massive trampoline, and she can fly like Supergirl .........but see she is a child and can be excused for these ideas...

I hope she never loses the belief she can fly, because in a sense when she does she will lose the ability to do so and the desire to do so and then she never will. There are many ways to fly but they all begin with a belief that we can.

I work to transform the real world into a better one, and generally i use aeroplanes to fly. But i never give up the dream of human flight and occasionaly it seems i succeed.

So in your heart, aim for utopia, and in real life work towards it. That is the only way known in real life that one can achieve it.

But if you chose to believe, in faith, in a real utopia of a spiritual sense, provided by connection to god, then who am i to deny this to anyone.

[Karlis]

~~~ ... (snip) ...

...

... [/b]Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

source

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

Beckys Mom,

Despite your consistent and repetitive comments that the ancient Hebrews sexually abused children, and that Moses approved and encouraged such behavior – there is no such evidence in the Bible.

All your comments about such child abuse are from your imagination and based on your personal opinions.

In Numbers 31 there is no mention – not even a hint or innuendo – about rape or sexual exploitation of girl-children.

I posted the following clear explanation of these Scriptures before, but you dismissed it with ad hominem arguments. I will post it again in abbreviated form, for easier reading.

…

the accusation that these girls were for “sex slave” purposes contradicts what we know

about the culture and about the event. …

... the “

young girls who have not known man by lying with him

” (Num 31:18).

These captives, however, were not immediately brought into the Israelite camp. Instead, they and their captors were kept outside the camp for seven days in

a kind of quarantine period

. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [

Eickhoff 1977

].)

Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp.

This incident is hardly an expression of lascivious male behavior

;

rather, it reflects the desperate need for women of childbearing age, a need so extreme that the utter destruction of the Midianite foes — and the prevention of death by plague — as required by the law of the herem could be waived in the interest of sparing the young women.

The Israelites weighed the life-death balance, and

the need for females of childbearing age took precedence

.”

(

SOURCE:

“

The Roots of Restriction: Women in Early Israel

”, Biblical Archaeologist, vol 41)

Beckys Mom:

You are imputing sex slavery to Numbers 31:18 when there is no such meaning in that verse:

Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive

for yourselves

.

Seeing your mind seems set on rape and pedophilia, the following information possibly will not mean much to you -- but here it is anyway.

... the “

for yourselves

” phrase (31.18) is NOT actually referring to “for your pleasure”, but is a reference to the

opposite

condition of “for YHWH” which applied to all people or property which was theoretically supposed to be destroyed in such combat situations.

…

By referring to ‘

for yourselves

’, then, in this passage, means simply ‘do not kill them’. This can also be seen in that this ‘booty’ was not ‘for themselves’ actually, but was distributed to others within the community.

Source

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html' rel="external nofollow">

[Bluefinger]

Perhaps its because its a practice one has to apply in their daily living.....its about the person you are, how your behavior affects the whole.....

Religion is about behavior modification in hopes that the obedient one will be rewarded. In my opinion, a loving relationship with God Himself should be the reward. Many people take up religion to bypass God and get to paradise. That is why there are so many people in church that obey the letter but not the spirit of God's commands. A person who loves God will be concerned with what God is concerned about. That means obeying God means feeding the hungry, sheltering the orphans, visiting those in prison, taking care of widows, adopting rather than allowing abortion, and all the other humane things that society deems to be an inconvenience. Don't be fooled. If it is aimed at gaining anything other than God Himself, it is man made and stinks of religion.

Jesus didn't waste His time appearing religious to people. In fact, He spend a lot of time making fun of religious people and their vain endeavors to please a God they didn't know. He healed the sick, freed the captives, gave sight to the blind, raised the dead, and taught truth to the oppressed. He didn't worry about what people thought of Him so long as God was glorified. Jesus was humane to people in the deepest sense. You can't be religious minded and follow that kind of Jesus. But who can tell? That is why it is so easy to love Jesus and sit next to someone at church who has never really met Him.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Bluefinger

[ChloeB]

Beckys Mom,

Despite your consistent and repetitive comments that the ancient Hebrews sexually abused children, and that Moses approved and encouraged such behavior – there is no such evidence in the Bible.

All your comments about such child abuse are from your imagination and based on your personal opinions.

In Numbers 31 there is no mention – not even a hint or innuendo – about rape or sexual exploitation of girl-children.

I posted the following clear explanation of these Scriptures before, but you dismissed it with ad hominem arguments. I will post it again in abbreviated form, for easier reading.

…

the accusation that these girls were for “sex slave” purposes contradicts what we know

about the culture and about the event. …

... the “

young girls who have not known man by lying with him

” (Num 31:18).

These captives, however, were not immediately brought into the Israelite camp. Instead, they and their captors were kept outside the camp for seven days in

a kind of quarantine period

. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [

Eickhoff 1977

].)

Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp.

This incident is hardly an expression of lascivious male behavior

;

rather, it reflects the desperate need for women of childbearing age, a need so extreme that the utter destruction of the Midianite foes — and the prevention of death by plague — as required by the law of the herem could be waived in the interest of sparing the young women.

The Israelites weighed the life-death balance, and

the need for females of childbearing age took precedence

.”

(

SOURCE:

“

The Roots of Restriction: Women in Early Israel

”, Biblical Archaeologist, vol 41)

Beckys Mom:

You are imputing sex slavery to Numbers 31:18 when there is no such meaning in that verse:

Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive

for yourselves

.

Seeing your mind seems set on rape and pedophilia, the following information possibly will not mean much to you -- but here it is anyway.

... the “

for yourselves

” phrase (31.18) is NOT actually referring to “for your pleasure”, but is a reference to the

opposite

condition of “for YHWH” which applied to all people or property which was theoretically supposed to be destroyed in such combat situations.

…

By referring to ‘

for yourselves

’, then, in this passage, means simply ‘do not kill them’. This can also be seen in that this ‘booty’ was not ‘for themselves’ actually, but was distributed to others within the community.

Source

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html' rel="external nofollow">

Hey, Karlis, just a question.....they were only supposed to take the girl virgins, right? How did they know if they were? You think they just asked the girls and took their word for it?

[Beckys_Mom]

…(snip).... By referring to '

for yourselves

', then, in this passage, means simply 'do not kill them'. This can also be seen in that this 'booty' was not 'for themselves' actually, but was distributed to others within the community.

That was a whole lot of nothing.....just because you choose to intrepert the bible differently and water it down to suit yourself...dont try and convince me that book doesnt encourage sex on to children...I read it and presented it previously.,...moses does and he was one cruel evil man. I read it and presented it in black and white........

Edited December 5, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

You see, again you are thinking in terms determined by your present knowledge. Yes that is how the world is now. [/b]

Yes that is the REAL world that we all ive in now.......and the only world I was speaking of Mr Walker............All of what you have described was your own little dream land, that doesn't exist in the real world.......

No. The same earth, but as it was in eden and will be according to the bible, on the new earth. Animals will not kill or eat each other nor be a threat to man(the lamb will lie down with the lion) There are ways within a water cycle for there to be plenty of water for human consumption without it actually raining, although because we are used to the world as it is we find it difficult to appreciate this. According to the bible it did not rain in eden yet adam and eve had no trouble surviving If there was enough water for plants and animals then certainly there was enough for humans.

Mr Walker this world you dream up and eden is a fairy tale...no proof it even existed.........again your dream world...doesnt exist

I hope she never loses the belief she can fly, because in a sense when she does she will lose the ability to do so and the desire to do so and then she never will. There are many ways to fly but they all begin with a belief that we can

Put it this way..if I caught her on top of my roof and was about to jump...trust me I would do all to save her and freak out...........but I seriously doubt she would be that silly...

I live in the real world as we know it Mr Walker..

[Beckys_Mom]

Beckys Mom,

Despite your consistent and repetitive comments that the ancient Hebrews sexually abused children, and that Moses approved and encouraged such behavior there is no such evidence in the Bible]

Yes there is.....once again

Numbers 31:7-18 (New Living Translation)

⁷ They attacked Midian as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. ⁸ All five of the Midianite kingsEvi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Rebadied in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

⁹Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. ¹⁰ They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. ¹¹ After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, ¹² they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. ¹³ Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. ¹⁴ But Moses was furious with all the generals and captains^[a] who had returned from the battle. ¹⁵ "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. ¹⁶ "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord's people. ¹⁷ So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. ¹⁸ Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Right there loud and so very clear......and absolutely evil...barbaraic

Where did I find this? ---> BIBLE GATEWAY.COM

Seeing your mind seems set on rape and pedophilia

Very good Karlis..well observed.....because that is all I was talking about... how the bible doesnt direct any laws that says rape on children / sex abuse was wrong....no wonder it doesnt.. instead it encourages it.. .not very moral now is it? nahhhh

Edited December 5, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

Hey, Karlis, just a question.....they were only supposed to take the girl virgins, right? How did they know if they were? You think they just asked the girls and took their word for it?

The only way they could guess was ... as it is known that young girls where married off as young as 13 - 14 onwards... then any little girl under the age of 13 would be a virgin... because normally if a little girl has had sex she was married off... even if the girl was raped, the rapist had to pay so many peices of silver to her father and then she was made marry her rapist..........so yes any child under the age of 13 or so..they considered virgins...and according to the bible passasage i presented...moses told his men to take the young virgins for themselves

Reading it almost made my flesh crawl...but I have presented different versions of the same bible verses and all say the same thing from www.biblegateway.com... you copy and paste in --> 31:7-18 and its all there any version you like is there

Edited December 5, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

By referring to '

for yourselves

', then, in this passage, means simply 'do not kill them'. This can also be seen in that this 'booty' was not 'for themselves' actually, but was distributed to others within the community.

Source

By once again you have posted up another guys opinions of butchered passages from the bible to suit himself...so it doesnt look bad...and you give glen millers opinions as proof? thats not proof.........all that is ..is his own defence for the harsh evil that was written in the bible... he takes the numbers... leaves out the middle number and peices together what suited his POV........Glen millers butcher job of the numbers...he takes numbers -> .Numbers 31:7-18 . --> turns it to just --> 31.18...leaving out number 7 to suit himself<---drops the number 7 for when we look up --> 31:7-18 we get the lot....the enitre article was written by a guy called - glen miller ...says so at the very bottom and all he is doing is defending the harsh evil parts written...........so we have passage numbers (31:7-18 )<----Glen drops out the number 7 and focused on 31-18...*shakes head*...............Glen doesnt even address number 17 & 18 correctly

no 17 of the same passage reads loud and clear --> ¹⁷ So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. ¹⁸ Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.......... but see glen didnt like the sound of those two numbers... he liked to focus on just 31

you have shown me another perosns POV........not really convincing Karlis..nice try but no sale..........and please dont try and waste more of my time with other peoples opinions either...I know what ithe REAL passages say and thats it

EDIT -

Even looking up another version...NIV version

you still get

Numbers 31:7-18 (New International Version)

⁷ They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. ⁸ Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. ⁹ The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. ¹⁰ They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. ¹¹ They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, ¹² and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. ^[a]

¹³ Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. ¹⁴ Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. ¹⁵ "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. ¹⁶ "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. ¹⁷ Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, ¹⁸ but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

above is a newer version but still says the same kinna thing.........its all in black and white..the older version reads - keep yourselves the young virgins for yourselves

How about the King James version?

Numbers 31:7-18 (King James Version)

⁷And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

⁸And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

⁹And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

¹⁰And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

¹¹And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

¹²And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

¹³And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

¹⁴And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

¹⁵And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

¹⁶Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

¹⁷Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. ¹⁸But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

All versions and sources are courtsey of .... - > THE BIBLE GATEWAY.COM

Edited December 5, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Mr Walker]

Put it this way..if I caught her on top of my roof and was about to jump...trust me I would do all to save her and freak out...........but I seriously doubt she would be that silly...

You're right. Being your daughter shell probably be like me and talk someone else(in my case my litle brother ) into trying it. I did provide a parachutemade from one of mums bed sheets but that didnt work out as well as i had hoped.

Ps the good news is that i have experimental data to prove that a young, light, and resilient person, can jump from a roof at least 10 feet high not just once but several times without doing any physical harm.

Jousting on the town oval, Archery contests with human targets, hurdling barbed wire fences to catch live bunny rabbits while they were transfixed in a spot light, Building and learning to use a skateboard in the mid 1960s with no protective clothing, cartwheeling a billy cart at the bottom of dead mans hill, surfing and skiing over the top of 12 foot sharks ,diving 20 feet off a jetty structure into the sea, cartwheeling off a motor bike at high speed(in fact anything to do with motorbikes) using a parachute to stop a push bike at high speed, swinging by rope from tree to tree like tarzan, making a variety of explosive and pyrotechnic devices, and many other childhood activities, however, gave rather different outcomes at times, and i would recommend keeping an eye on becky if she shows a tendency to such activities.

Still, we survived all these activities with no broken bones only a few minor permanent scars, and only one or two mild concussions so there probably still isnt aneed to worry too much.

I live in the real world as we know it Mr Walker..

No, you live in the real world as YOU know it. My reality/world is nothing like yours. My real world has angels, ghosts, gods, obes, mindreading, clairvoyance and clair audience, visions of the future etc etc, as part of everyday mundane existence.

In my real world anything man can imagine is potentially possible, and whether it is actually achieveable is something which needs to be constantly tested and affirmed. Never assume anything is impossible or you will never; fly, send your mind around the world, or talk to angels.

We talked about my parents in another post. They never told me anything was impossible, just that some things were harder than others.So as a kid i learned to do most things from sking barefoot andhanging ten from a long board to making rockets explosive devices an time delay incendiary devices.

When i was a young person i wrote a list of everything i wanted to do before i was 30. It took me til 40 but i did them all, from hang gliding, to abseiling off buildings, to urban caving, parachuting through to writing a book, and having sex in a dozen interesting locations.

(as a young person, of course the last was high on my agenda, but in reality, even limited to one loving woman, it was one of the simplest to achieve, and if i had been older and wiser when i made the list i would never have limited it to a dozen.)

Ps aeroplanes are easy; lifts/elevators are tricky.

Apart from things like climbing mt everest, or sailing single handed round the world, which were beyond my financial capacity, apart from anything else, i thought there was nothing left to do.

But humans live in a world of dreams and imagination and the "paranormal as well as the mundane. I found plenty of challenges ongoing and accessible in all those areas.

I have been blessed to live in an interesting world and to have been given permission to explore it to the limits of my personal abilities.

Sorry for babbling on, but it sometimes worries me when people talk about the real world, as if that should somehow put limitations on them and their dreams.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Mr Walker

[The Infidel Guy]

No, you live in the real world as YOU know it. My reality/world is nothing like yours. My real world has angels, ghosts, gods, obes, mindreading, clairvoyance and clair audience, visions of the future etc etc, as part of everyday mundane existence.

If you went to a psychiatrist and you mentioned all this, they would most probably diagnose you as being "unstable" or "clinically mental".... Ghosts, Angels, God etc.... nothing you can offer beyond your own personal experience. All you have going for you is your own experience, which is fine. But lets consider one thing which i have asked numerous times from you. Being a former Atheist Mr Walker, God apparently manifested himself to you thus taking the leap into faith. You stated you would talk to your god since you speak to "it" on a regular basis, in showing itself to me. It has been now 2 months and God has not showed himself to me. I think it's logical to say that your personal experience was a figment of your own imagination.

This has not been fulfilled. Why? Perhaps God is a figment of your imagination. Your right in one thing. Humans live in a world of dreams and imagination. Your imagination has taking you into faith.

Dreams and Imagination is not evidence of anything. Its an illusion.

PS: I'm back. Had to head out on Business/Pleasure to Switzerland..... yes yes i love traveling.

Peace

T.I.G

[eight bits]

If you went to a psychiatrist and you mentioned all this, they would most probably diagnose you as being "unstable" or "clinically mental".... Ghosts, Angels, God etc....

"Most probably" according to whom?

Mr Walker is Austalian, and I can only comment on American psychological and psychiatric diagnostic methods and best practices.

These are codified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, currently in its fourth edition, with an interim revision, and usually referred to as DSM-IV, or DSM-IV-TR. It is my understanding that the DSM-IV is influential on psychiatric practice and scholarship worldwide, including in Austalia.

DSM-IV recognizes a category of non-pathological presenting complaint, "religious or spiritual problem." This is coded as V62.89, if you care to look it up.

Therefore, an American psychiatrist would be expected to exclude V62.89 issues as part of any differential diagnosis leading to a conclusion that a pathological condition existed.

---

Psychiatrists, like all other physicians, are on the lookout for pathology, which is something that jeopardizes well-being, survival, and function.

Mr Walker's personal religious views plainly comport with and foster his well-being, survival, and function. They do so without endangering anybody else's. So, there is no pathology to interest the physician.

"First, do no harm" is the Hippocratic prime maxim. Like many other professionals, physicians quickly learn that an important practical corollary of this ideal is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A psychiatrist has no more business with Mr Walker's religious views about his experiences than with his political perspective, his taste in women's hair color, or any other subject where healthy people entertain different opinions.

The coding of non-pathological religious and spiritual issues in the Fourth Edition was a step forward in securing the scientific foundations of psychiatry. Doing so also reflects the simple intellectual honesty to admit that nobody can state, with a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that there is no God, are no angels, are no ghosts, etc, for Mr Walker to see.

[danielost]

Obama is Coke and Bush is Pepsi at the end of the day your still drinking the same beverage.

Of course within politics they are going to use religion as majority of the world is Religious to some extent whether they it be Islam, Christianity or Jewish. It's a sad world we live in.

H1N1.... I ain't touching that &*%#@ if you paid me. I like my health...

PS: I had a kick a$$ holiday and perhaps retiring from Playerism

Peace

T.I.G

you do know that most holidays in the usa are religious holidays. so you can no longer celebrate them. send me your christmas presents. you wouldn't enjoy them anyways since the idea is religious based, even if you go back to the original holiday.