Archaeological Evidence For Moses

[kmt_sesh]

Couple of comments. If anyone should be believed, it probably is Manetho - he lived around 250 BCE in Egypt and as a priest would have had access to most of Egypt's recorded history. It was Manetho who stated that the Hebrews were in fact the Hyksos settlers of the Second Intermediate Period.

...

Respectfully, I beg to differ. We can perhaps rely on Manetho for reliable accounts only through the Late Period and into the very start of Ptolemaic times, the periods shortly before and during his own life.

You're assuming the temples of his time were well-stocked with papyrus documents containing carefully preserved records of the history of Egypt going back all the way to the beginning, some 3,000 years before Manetho's own life. It would be a mistake to entertain such a notion. You're also assuming the Egyptians carefully recorded their own history in the way most of our nations do today, which is of course not the case.

Yes, Manetho writes that the Hyksos and the Hebrews were the same people, but we know without fail that Manetho is quite incorrect in stating so. It's no exaggeration to say that we of today know significantly more about Egyptian history than Manetho or any other Classical writer did. That much is obvious. Carefully read the accounts of Manetho that have survived. It is clear that the more he writes about events that were ancient to his own time, the more bungled and muddled his accounts are.

A word of advice to all: I am not saying to ignore Manetho, Herodotus, and others of their time, but never try to use their material as established fact! That would be a comical folly of the first order. Rather, read and enjoy their writings, but if it's factual history you want, always corroborate with the professional literature published by current experts in the field.

[SlimJim22]

Kmt

could you tell me what your view on the location of Mt Sinai in Exodus is? I've read that the peak now known as Mt Sinai is not thought to be the same place. Alternatives I know of are Mt Hermon or more likely in Saudi Arabia. Does much archeology occur in these areas?

[kmt_sesh]

Kmt

could you tell me what your view on the location of Mt Sinai in Exodus is? I've read that the peak now known as Mt Sinai is not thought to be the same place. Alternatives I know of are Mt Hermon or more likely in Saudi Arabia. Does much archeology occur in these areas?

I don't know much about this myself, SlimJim22. I've never looked into it in detail, and I am not familiar with the archaeology of the sites mentioned. I have no doubt that the scribes who wrote Exodus were referring to an actual, physical place when mentioning Mt. Sinai, but I'd have to agree that we might not know for sure now exactly what place that meant to them.

I'm sure there are other posters who are better versed with Mt. Sinai arguments than I am, so I'll leave it in their hands.

[TheSearcher]

Couple of comments. If anyone should be believed, it probably is Manetho - he lived around 250 BCE in Egypt and as a priest would have had access to most of Egypt's recorded history. It was Manetho who stated that the Hebrews were in fact the Hyksos settlers of the Second Intermediate Period.

Secondly, Thera's plume would indeed have been clearly visible from the Nile Delta as illustrated by Ian Wilson in The Exodus Enigma, p. 113.

Finally, it would appear that that those who claim C-14 dating to be 'ridiculously unreliable' mostly come from a Christian background (e.g. here ) and they do so for an obvious reason, that the existence of life many thousands of years ago does not agree with the biblical age of the world, 6000 years.

Why are there no Egyptian records of this event then? There is only one record that could apply and even that about rainstorms (and is often considered a metaphor for something entirely else), not about a gigantic plume of smoke seen from the Nile delta. You'd think that a sight like that would suitably impress the locals as to "the anger of the gods" for example.

Just my opinion though, I refer to Kmt on this one.

[questionmark]

Why are there no Egyptian records of this event then? There is only one record that could apply and even that about rainstorms (and is often considered a metaphor for something entirely else), not about a gigantic plume of smoke seen from the Nile delta. You'd think that a sight like that would suitably impress the locals as to "the anger of the gods" for example.

Just my opinion though, I refer to Kmt on this one.

Thera was, like Krakatao a big explosion that tore apart most of the volcano.

And while in theory one could see a plume when high enough, the humidity (mist) over the Mediterranean never lets you see any further than about 50 miles.

I guess that is back to the drawing board.

[WoIverine]

Until the Ark of the Covenant is found, no one can know for sure. Also, wasn't one of the cities Moses' lived in, recently uncovered or something? I believe it was called "Ur", or something like that.

Edited January 20, 2010 by SpiderCyde

[TheSearcher]

Thera was, like Krakatao a big explosion that tore apart most of the volcano.

And while in theory one could see a plume when high enough, the humidity (mist) over the Mediterranean never lets you see any further than about 50 miles.

I guess that is back to the drawing board.

That's the point I was trying to make to Riaan as well.

[sinewave]

Thera was, like Krakatao a big explosion that tore apart most of the volcano.

And while in theory one could see a plume when high enough, the humidity (mist) over the Mediterranean never lets you see any further than about 50 miles.

I guess that is back to the drawing board.

There are more than 500 miles between Giza and Thera. Seeing that far seems unlikely.

[kmt_sesh]

Why are there no Egyptian records of this event then? There is only one record that could apply and even that about rainstorms (and is often considered a metaphor for something entirely else), not about a gigantic plume of smoke seen from the Nile delta. You'd think that a sight like that would suitably impress the locals as to "the anger of the gods" for example.

Just my opinion though, I refer to Kmt on this one.

By "one record" I imagine your talking about the so-called Tempest Stela of Ahmose I (see translation here). I used to try to figure some way that this could be related to the Thera eruption but I've abandoned that "quest." The timing simply isn't right. The volcano at Santorini had erupted around 70 years before Ahmose I came to the throne (c. 1550 BCE). Reading translations of the Tempest Stela, I would agree with you, Searcher: it describes a period of heavy, punishing rains:

...the gods expressed their discontent ///////// The gods (made?) the sky come with a tempest of (rain?); it caused darkness in the Western region; the sky was unleashed...

It was then that His Majesty was informed that the funerary concessions had been invaded (by the water), that the sepulchral chambers had been damaged, that the structures of funerary enclosures had been undermined...

I believe heavy ash clouds from volcanic eruptions can result in rainstorms, but as I used to be guilty of myself, trying to connect this with Thera is nothing more than speculative. There is no firm evidence to enable us to tie the two together. And although the Tempest Stela speaks of inundating rains, it relates nothing else that one might identify with a volcanic eruption.

This stela might record a factual natural phenomenon--damaging rainstorms--but in the end it's about something that was far more important to the Egyptians. Remember that this was on the heels of the expulsion of the Hyksos, who had ruled a large swath of Egypt and whom the Egyptians regarded as defilers. The opening line of the Tempest Stela describes how "the gods expressed their discontent," which tells us the Egyptians saw the damaging rainstorms as punishment from the gods. It's possible the Egyptians viewed the rainstorms as divine punishment for their "allowing" the Hyksos to have controlled Lower Egypt.

As the one glorified for having expelled the Hyksos, Ahmose I, first king of Dynasty 18, was the restorer of Egypt. The Tempest Stela basically explains how Ahmose I made everything right again. He saved Egypt, restored the temples, and repaired the monuments ("the restoration of the country to its former state"). Ahmose I appeased the gods.

[WoIverine]

Until the Ark of the Covenant is found, no one can know for sure. Also, wasn't one of the cities Moses' lived in, recently uncovered or something? I believe it was called "Ur", or something like that.

Edit on my last post. Ur Was Abraham, not Moses, my mistake.

Edited January 20, 2010 by SpiderCyde

[kmt_sesh]

Until the Ark of the Covenant is found, no one can know for sure. Also, wasn't one of the cities Moses' lived in, recently uncovered or something? I believe it was called "Ur", or something like that.

The Ark of the Covenant might be more legend than fact. No doubt there was a container in the Temple of Jerusalem in which sacred items were kept for temple rituals, and a mythic legend such as we see with the Ark may have grown around this container.

The Ark is said, of course, to have contained the Commandments that Yahweh spoke onto Moses. As some biblical scholars have noted, this doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would Moses secret away the Commandments that were to have guided the conduct of his people henceforth? This is why something such as the Ark (as sacred container) probably would've held something altogether different.

Ur is associated with Abraham, centuries before Moses. Ur is modern Tell el-Mukayyar, and is in Iraq. You're probably thinking of Pi-Ramesses, a site in the eastern Nile Delta near the modern village of Qantar. Pi-Ramesses is specifically mentioned in the Bible and so is Pithom, also in the eastern Delta. In ancient times the cities were called Per-Ramesses ("House of Ramesses") and Per-Atum ("House of Atum"). Here is where the Hebrews were said to have been forced to make mud bricks for the construction of buildings.

The earliest historians to have ventured to Egypt had received training in the Classics and in Biblical scripture. In those days many still regarded the Bible to be historical fact, so these early historians were hoping to find physical evidence to substantiate such writings as Exodus. They did eventually locate and excavate Pi-Ramesses and Pithom, so you can imagine the excitements these discoveries generated. In retrospect it's not terribly surprising that cities mentioned in the Bible actually existed. Most place names mentioned in the Old Testament appear to have been real cities or other landmarks in ancient history.

The discovery of Pi-Ramesses and Pithom cannot really stand as evidence for the biblical Exodus. Yes, they were real cities, but we cannot find any greater connection than that. No definitive physical or extrabiblical textual evidence exists for the Exodus or for Moses.

[WoIverine]

Double post, bah!

Edited January 20, 2010 by SpiderCyde

[WoIverine]

The earliest historians to have ventured to Egypt had received training in the Classics and in Biblical scripture. In those days many still regarded the Bible to be historical fact, so these early historians were hoping to find physical evidence to substantiate such writings as Exodus. They did eventually locate and excavate Pi-Ramesses and Pithom, so you can imagine the excitements these discoveries generated. In retrospect it's not terribly surprising that cities mentioned in the Bible actually existed. Most place names mentioned in the Old Testament appear to have been real cities or other landmarks in ancient history.

The discovery of Pi-Ramesses and Pithom cannot really stand as evidence for the biblical Exodus. Yes, they were real cities, but we cannot find any greater connection than that. No definitive physical or extrabiblical textual evidence exists for the Exodus or for Moses.

I would pay any amount of money to be able to bear witness to those events. One thing I've wondered is why is there no Biblical mention of "Sargon of Akkad", is there?

Edited January 20, 2010 by SpiderCyde

[Abramelin]

I would pay any amount of money to be able to bear witness to those events. One thing I've wondered is why is there no Biblical mention of "Sargon of Akkad", is there?

There are those who say that Sargon is no one else than "Nimrod".

[kmt_sesh]

I would pay any amount of money to be able to bear witness to those events. One thing I've wondered is why is there no Biblical mention of "Sargon of Akkad", is there?

As you state in your subsequent post, many believe Sargon of Akkad to be the same as Nimrod. Genesis 10:8-12 reads (bold emphasis mine):

Cush was the father of Nimrod, who grew to be a mighty warrior on the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD." The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in Shinar. From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city.

Sargon I reigned around 2467-2412 BCE. Bear in mind that when this Akkadian king lived, the Hebrews would not yet exist for another 1,200-plus years. As mythic as Sargon I was to later Mesopotamian kings, we can't expect later peoples to have remembered details, particularly if those later peoples were of a culture that didn't exist in that distant time and had no direct relation to the Akkadian civilization.

The Hebrews who crafted the Torah were simply trying to establish a history that favored their own culture and furthered their own agenda. They were incredibly successful in doing so, I'd have to say. The religion practiced by Sargon of Akkad is long dead; the religion practiced by Jews continues to thrive.

[Abramelin]

As you state in your subsequent post, many believe Sargon of Akkad to be the same as Nimrod. Genesis 10:8-12 reads (bold emphasis mine):

Cush was the father of Nimrod, who grew to be a mighty warrior on the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD." The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in Shinar. From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city.

Sargon I reigned around 2467-2412 BCE. Bear in mind that when this Akkadian king lived, the Hebrews would not yet exist for another 1,200-plus years. As mythic as Sargon I was to later Mesopotamian kings, we can't expect later peoples to have remembered details, particularly if those later peoples were of a culture that didn't exist in that distant time and had no direct relation to the Akkadian civilization.

The Hebrews who crafted the Torah were simply trying to establish a history that favored their own culture and furthered their own agenda. They were incredibly successful in doing so, I'd have to say. The religion practiced by Sargon of Akkad is long dead; the religion practiced by Jews continues to thrive.

I was only defending the memory of my grandfather.

He was a Jew, "Benjamin", a guy who changed his name into "Bernard". Initials were important to the nut brain Nazis.

I still love him for his balls to lie to his oppressors, the Nazis.

I still miss him. He was a gentle guy.

He smoked pipe, and I remember me asking him if he was the devil, with all those fumes coming from his mouth, hahhahaha!

I was about 3 or 4 years old back then.

He was my hero. I learned later on he lied like hell to the Nazis.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Abramelin

[WoIverine]

Check this out guys...

Very interesting stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List

"Then the flood swept over."

Excavations in Iraq have revealed evidence of localized flooding at Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other Sumerian cities. A layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon dated to ca. 2900 BCE, interrupts the continuity of settlement, extending as far north as the city of Kish. Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr period (3000-2900 BCE) was discovered immediately below the Shuruppak flood stratum.[9]"

Something else also of note: "After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years." Kingship descending from heaven sounds an awful lot like a society of advanced beings coming down from the sky. Would the Bible possibly refer to them as the "Grigori?" Would we think of them as ETs?

Edited January 20, 2010 by SpiderCyde

[kmt_sesh]

I was only defending the memory of my grandfather.

He was a Jew, "Benjamin", a guy who changed his name into "Bernard". Initials were important to the nut brain Nazis.

I still love him for his balls to lie to his oppressors, the Nazis.

I still miss him. He was a gentle guy.

He smoked pipe, and I remember me asking him if he was the devil, with all those fumes coming from his mouth, hahhahaha!

I was about 3 or 4 years old back then.

He was my hero. I learned later on he lied like hell to the Nazis.

LOL I see I misidentified posters. I thought it was SpiderCyde who mentioned Nimrod. See? Attention to detail is very helpful.

I remember both my grandfathers. One died when I was a young boy, and the other when I was in my mid-teens. My mom's dad (the first mentioned) liked to play the harmonica, and I loved to listen to him play it. Years after his death, my grandmother gave the harmonica to me. It's one of my most prized possessions, even if I have know idea how to play it.

Kudos to your grandfather for outsmarting the Nazis, who themselves were a bunch of nimrods!

[cormac mac airt]

Something else also of note: "After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years."

The downside of this is the Eridu/Eridug is known to date to c.5000 BC, so if there was an Alulim and he was king, he would still be ruling until 23,800 AD. So, an interesting story, but that's about it.

Would the Bible possibly refer to them as the "Grigori?"

No, as the word Grigori is not in the Bible.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

I don't think it's known when exactly the Sumerian kings list was first recorded, but certainly it is not an accurate historical document for the earliest kings mentioned. I should think that would be obvious. It no doubt underwent a number of revisions as the Bronze Age progressed.

This kings list was meant to show an uninterrupted line of rulers from the dawn of time, when the gods first handed down kingship to mankind, as well as to show the legitimate place actual kings had within the line and history of monarchy. It's telling that the very earliest king for whom we have physical, documented evidence is s Enmebaragesi, who reigned in Kish late in the Early Dynastic Period. Therefore we cannot even be sure if the kings in the list prior to Enmebaragesi existed. Many probably did, but we lack evidence to say so. The farther back we go, however, the more we can be certain that the list is mythic, not historical.

Does it really need to be said that no one lived for 28,800 years?

[WoIverine]

Does it really need to be said that no one lived for 28,800 years?

LOL, that's actually why I threw in the Angel/ET theory, the only person even close to 28,800 years old is...hell I dunno, Joan Rivers?

Edited January 21, 2010 by SpiderCyde

[kmt_sesh]

LOL, that's actually why I threw in the Angel/ET theory, the only person even close to 28,800 years old is...hell I dunno, Joan Rivers?

I stand corrected!

[cormac mac airt]

LOL, that's actually why I threw in the Angel/ET theory, the only person even close to 28,800 years old is...hell I dunno, Joan Rivers?

She is not! She's 28,800 AND 1!

cormac

[Swede]

LOL, that's actually why I threw in the Angel/ET theory, the only person even close to 28,800 years old is...hell I dunno, Joan Rivers?

Reasonable approximation...but has anyone run a C14 on Helen Thomas?

[kmt_sesh]

Reasonable approximation...but has anyone run a C14 on Helen Thomas?

Oh my, a grand example. As it happens a team of scientists did try to conduct C14 analysis of her, but discovered that she was beyond the 50,000-year limit, so the results were not obtainable.