The Nazca Lines

[jaylemurph]

I'm curious about the fact that most people seem to think there can only be a single purpose to the Lines. That seems a little short-sighted to me -- if you look at any major construction today, very few are single-purpose. Why can't ancient constructs be that way as well?

--Jaylemurph

[lakeview rud]

As interesting as the lines themselves are, it would apppear that the Nazcans sheared off the tops of several mountains to do their images and lines.... That's got to take an enormous amount of labor to do that!!

[Swede]

As interesting as the lines themselves are, it would apppear that the Nazcans sheared off the tops of several mountains to do their images and lines.... That's got to take an enormous amount of labor to do that!!

You may wish to review the preceding pages.

.

[jmccr8]

I'm curious about the fact that most people seem to think there can only be a single purpose to the Lines. That seems a little short-sighted to me -- if you look at any major construction today, very few are single-purpose. Why can't ancient constructs be that way as well?

--Jaylemurph

Hello JayLemurph that is an intersting proposal I am glad that you put that forward.I would also be interested in hearing some discussion to develope on that perspective,i think that it would bring forward some intriguing points throughout several of the threads.Thanks jmccr8

[MARAB0D]

Maybe it was their race-course for llamas? And the parties of watchers were called Monkeys and Spiders? Like in Roman circus, there the spectators on the races were divided by colours, say Nero belonged to "green" party.

[MARAB0D]

and at the end of the lines there was water source to give the animals drink?

[lightly]

Hi Lightlyy;

Yes I think the idea of song lines is pretty abstract and predates writing, ,maybe serving as a mnemonic map to negotiate the land. The parallel between the nazca lines and glyphs that I can only guess would be that the nazca were origonally nomadic also....cause if they lived in the local permanently, why would they need the marker lines and glyphs. Im assuming an underground water connection with the glyphs here.

Hi Jules, i woke up thinking of your post hehe... ( i had to look up the word mnemonic last night ) I think you make a good point about the songs helping to remember the paths (song lines) .. I'm guessing.. the songs help them remember things ,like food and water sources on and nearby the paths, AND the paths (visual clues) help them remember the songs! .. some paths and songs would change in time along with changes in environment? .. But the film stressed the belief held by the Aboriginals that singing the songs is vital to the Recreation of the world.

The National Geographic film was interesting.. it showed an arial mock up of some of the major song lines crisscrossing most all of Australia. Their purpose is understandable... the Nazca lines seem much more mysterious... but as Jaylemurph said.. possibly multi purpose. ritual? and ???

[jaylemurph]

Maybe it was their race-course for llamas? And the parties of watchers were called Monkeys and Spiders? Like in Roman circus, there the spectators on the races were divided by colours, say Nero belonged to "green" party.

Let me also say, I love this idea, too.

Incidentally, that's one of the theories of the development of Greek theatre spaces, that they evolved from spectators sitting on hillsides to watch religious performances (including dancing) down at the bottom.

--Jaylemurph

[Eldorado]

Yep...a giant playground/ballroom sounds good to me.

I feel that too often we look at ancient enigmas and try to give them a profound or extremely practical explanation. The ancients were human beings, and as such, wouldn't have needed much of an excuse to play and to dance. Having fun comes natural.

Just look at the sports stadia and theatres today and in ancient Rome, Greece, China etc, and you'll see that "fun" was, and is, high on the agenda of every civilisation.

[Abramelin]

Yep...a giant playground/ballroom sounds good to me.

I feel that too often we look at ancient enigmas and try to give them a profound or extremely practical explanation. The ancients were human beings, and as such, wouldn't have needed much of an excuse to play and to dance. Having fun comes natural.

Just look at the sports stadia and theatres today and in ancient Rome, Greece, China etc, and you'll see that "fun" was, and is, high on the agenda of every civilisation.

Yeah, you're damn right.

That's what I always thought of those socalled "Venus" - or "Goddess" sculptures they found.

To me they were just little figurines created by some horny guy who loved voluptuous women.

[Tinpanman]

It seems obvious that the lines represent a measurement of time. Knowing that a crew could plow some distance measured at the time of the solstices would only take simple math to predict and determine intermediate dates. There may be ritual involved in the excavation of the depictions such as the year of the monkey or humming bird, etc. The ability to develop time scale would allow any number of simultaneous time measurements or primitive clocks. A useful application of these measurements could be forecast of time and not just measurement of the past.

[jaylemurph]

It seems obvious that the lines represent a measurement of time. Knowing that a crew could plow some distance measured at the time of the solstices would only take simple math to predict and determine intermediate dates. There may be ritual involved in the excavation of the depictions such as the year of the monkey or humming bird, etc. The ability to develop time scale would allow any number of simultaneous time measurements or primitive clocks. A useful application of these measurements could be forecast of time and not just measurement of the past.

For something allegedly obvious, it hasn't occurred to very many people.

I'm not actually disagreeing with your time-keeping point, actually -- it's an interesting idea -- just the notion that it's obvious or self-evident. Many ancient geoglyphs were probably some manner of time keeping/astronomical device, so there is at least some background for this idea.

--Jaylemurph

[Eldorado]

Along the same lines, this theory.....(scuse the pun)

"Calendar - Many ancient civilisations appear to have had complex calendar...............there have also been suggestions that the lines are a star map and that by following the path of stars when looking up at the night sky from certain points on each of the drawings, the Nazcans were able to accurately measure the passing of time - thus predicting seasons and other weather conditions."

also this.....

"Religious Purpose - Local lore suggests that the Nazcans created the designs for similar reasons to other ancient cultures who had created monuments for use in rituals to their gods. There is the suggestion that the people would use the drawings as giant outdoor temples and walk along the lines, giving thanks or asking for favours from the god of their choice, often represented by an animal.

Many of the lines are aligned with compass points or areas that herald the onset of rains.

They also point to water from underground rivers that flow from the Andes mountains. The asking of the gods for life-giving waters is a common theme in many ancient South American cultures and the Nazcan were no different. This theory is the most likely explanation for the construction of the lines."

http://www.bbc.co.uk.../h2g2/A11950175

(jeez...aint easy pasting from BBC)

You're right of course, Jay...it could be that the Lines were used for a combination of all the more sensible theories. Now that makes sense!

Edited February 14, 2010 by Eldorado

[lightly]

Yep...a giant playground/ballroom sounds good to me.

I feel that too often we look at ancient enigmas and try to give them a profound or extremely practical explanation. The ancients were human beings, and as such, wouldn't have needed much of an excuse to play and to dance. Having fun comes natural.

Just look at the sports stadia and theatres today and in ancient Rome, Greece, China etc, and you'll see that "fun" was, and is, high on the agenda of every civilisation.

hi Eldorado, good point.. it must be a universal trait .. people want to have fun. i think we have pretty much always invented games and sports and told jokes.. lol can't you just see the stone age equivalent of 'Carrot Top' doing his comedy routine for the tribe after dinner? But.. this speal is mostly to say.. people can have some strange and terrible ideas of 'Fun'.. i'm thinking,in particular, of the Roman 'games' where witnessing human and animal slaughter on a grand scale was considered a really good time ! .. for hundreds of years! truly astounding!.

[MARAB0D]

Let me also say, I love this idea, too.

Incidentally, that's one of the theories of the development of Greek theatre spaces, that they evolved from spectators sitting on hillsides to watch religious performances (including dancing) down at the bottom.

--Jaylemurph

Jayle, but aside of all fantasies - there must be some sense in those lines. Unless we decide to start talking about prehistoric aviation of course. I fail to adhere to the idea of the massive religious building project which lasted for 1000 years. However if we are talking some form of entertainment - then it is possible, as generation to generation can follow the same tastes and traditions. Maybe these lines were for the runners, and were presenting different standard distances? Maybe for the animals to race - and in this case maybe they were not built at all but just left by the thousands of hooves passing there always along some straight line, marked with the wooden poles and ropes? Maybe people were not removing the soil with the shovels but just used brooms to clean the dust off the track?

This plateau is ideal for various sports, requiring a flat surface. It could be some form of a giant soccer field too.

[jaylemurph]

Jayle, but aside of all fantasies - there must be some sense in those lines. Unless we decide to start talking about prehistoric aviation of course. I fail to adhere to the idea of the massive religious building project which lasted for 1000 years. However if we are talking some form of entertainment - then it is possible, as generation to generation can follow the same tastes and traditions. Maybe these lines were for the runners, and were presenting different standard distances? Maybe for the animals to race - and in this case maybe they were not built at all but just left by the thousands of hooves passing there always along some straight line, marked with the wooden poles and ropes? Maybe people were not removing the soil with the shovels but just used brooms to clean the dust off the track?

This plateau is ideal for various sports, requiring a flat surface. It could be some form of a giant soccer field too.

You're right. Who in their right mind would spend centuries on one single religious construction?

--Jaylemurph

[Black Hound]

Directions made by UFOs hovering over the site? Any indication of them ever landing, constructing any buildings, mating, etc???

[MARAB0D]

You're right. Who in their right mind would spend centuries on one single religious construction?

--Jaylemurph

I would put Cologne Cathedral and Mainz one in another category than Nazca lines. The cathedrals belong to a proper religion and were built in the environment when the temps of their construction were determined by the complexity of architectural plans, availability of the funds, skilled labour and of certainly peaceful environment, which in Medieval Europe was rarely available. The reason of them built in such complexity was the desire to manifest the might of the church and state, not to specifically please Lord God - while the primitive cults target mostly this idea, to have their gods or spirits pleased. It takes a day to carve a wooden idol and offer sacrifice to it, why would a cult be building white elephants for 1000 years instead? Besides the lines of Nazca are not a miracle of engineering at all, they are only interesting because of the scale of the images, not because of their complexity.

It is obvious that making these lines was important for this tribe for a very continuous period, and if this was a religious importance, then we would be facing a very well established and conservative cult, and such cult is supposed to leave more evidence behind than just some lines and clay pots. This is why I suggest that the lines had some practical, non-religious meaning - and for which practical purpose can be a perfectly flat uninhabited non-agricultural zone be supplied with the ideally straight lines/roads? Sports come as a first sensible explanation. Tribal life is pretty boring, given the absence of newspapers, TV, radio, books and theaters, so they usually compensate by various public feasts and competitions, which of course can be ideologically linked to one or another spirit/deity (even in Hellenic culture they were linked to mt Olympus). I hope that with all your usual desire to argue, you would agree that the cathedrals have another purpose, they are for daily usage, not for occasional special events. Meanwhile we can find sports games and respective structures for them in practically all ancient cultures, such as Numidian equestrian competitions, Bull games in Crete, athletic events in Greece and Rome or the ritual ball game of Aztecs.

[danydandan]

I would put Cologne Cathedral and Mainz one in another category than Nazca lines. The cathedrals belong to a proper religion and were built in the environment when the temps of their construction were determined by the complexity of architectural plans, availability of the funds, skilled labour and of certainly peaceful environment, which in Medieval Europe was rarely available. The reason of them built in such complexity was the desire to manifest the might of the church and state, not to specifically please Lord God - while the primitive cults target mostly this idea, to have their gods or spirits pleased. It takes a day to carve a wooden idol and offer sacrifice to it, why would a cult be building white elephants for 1000 years instead? Besides the lines of Nazca are not a miracle of engineering at all, they are only interesting because of the scale of the images, not because of their complexity.

It is obvious that making these lines was important for this tribe for a very continuous period, and if this was a religious importance, then we would be facing a very well established and conservative cult, and such cult is supposed to leave more evidence behind than just some lines and clay pots. This is why I suggest that the lines had some practical, non-religious meaning - and for which practical purpose can be a perfectly flat uninhabited non-agricultural zone be supplied with the ideally straight lines/roads? Sports come as a first sensible explanation. Tribal life is pretty boring, given the absence of newspapers, TV, radio, books and theaters, so they usually compensate by various public feasts and competitions, which of course can be ideologically linked to one or another spirit/deity (even in Hellenic culture they were linked to mt Olympus). I hope that with all your usual desire to argue, you would agree that the cathedrals have another purpose, they are for daily usage, not for occasional special events. Meanwhile we can find sports games and respective structures for them in practically all ancient cultures, such as Numidian equestrian competitions, Bull games in Crete, athletic events in Greece and Rome or the ritual ball game of Aztecs.

What makes a ''proper'' religion

[MARAB0D]

What makes a ''proper'' religion

A definition! Religion in modern sense is a structured system of beliefs. Modern (the last 2000 years) religions all contain Church as organization, professional priests, designated places of worship, holy sites, scriptures, religious Creeds, monasteries, bureaucratic structure (departments, treasuries, diplomatic bodies etc). Primitive cults do not have all this, at best they have shamans or voodoo doctors and idol temples. Church can fund such projects as the mentioned cathedrals, a shaman cannot.

Edited February 15, 2010 by marabod

[danydandan]

No i meant where do you get off calling something a ''proper'' reiligion?

[Black Hound]

Never read of a reasonable explaination as to what they were for, who did it, why it was done, etc.,etc.,etc.? I love the speculation, regardless of how intellectual it might sound. Just say "I don;t have a clue" and leave it at that.

[jaylemurph]

A definition! Religion in modern sense is a structured system of beliefs. Modern (the last 2000 years) religions all contain Church as organization, professional priests, designated places of worship, holy sites, scriptures, religious Creeds, monasteries, bureaucratic structure (departments, treasuries, diplomatic bodies etc). Primitive cults do not have all this, at best they have shamans or voodoo doctors and idol temples. Church can fund such projects as the mentioned cathedrals, a shaman cannot.

Would you count the people who built Gobekli Tepe a religion in this sense? They have a reasonably sophisticated, centralised religious site, kept up over centuries.

--Jaylemurph

[Eldorado]

"Religious events and ceremonies took place at the center of Nasca society, in Cahuachi. These ceremonies took place to worship the nature gods to aid in the growth of agriculture. During this time, all members of the society in surrounding villages would migrate to the center and participate in feasting as well. Non-elites could obtain highly valued goods such as fancy polychrome pottery through feasting. In exchange, the elites could enhance their political power and status while co-opting the commoners into labor and construction of the site (Silverman, 1988). "

"They also built an impressive system of underground aqueducts, known as puquios, that still function today."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_culture#Religion

Seems the the Nazca were not as primitive as some may think.

[MARAB0D]

No i meant where do you get off calling something a ''proper'' reiligion?

Could you re-formulate the question to make me understand it? I was comparing medieval Christianity with a primitive American cult, Nazcas were at best in Bronze Age. "Proper" is our modern religious organizations.