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illuminol

'matter' from the latin word for mother?

51 posts in this topic

I'm a fast learner and a pretty accurate mirror.

Angelegenheit and Muster

That link still there?

Záležitost and vzorec

How about now?

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"such words are derived based on a percieved association in their own context" percieved by who? How do these words appear in the language and who chose them? Sounds like a natural association though.

Generally, it would be those (or the one) who coins the word that sets the association.

In the case of mater the context is one of 'predecessor' or 'that from which something came'. Materia or matter however is 'that from which something is made/formed'. The context is different, but the word association (origin) to that context is the same.

This is why it is unreliable to hypothesise hidden meanings across word associations, because often the context is not taken into account. It might seem romantic to 'see' hidden meanings, but language is a tool, rather than an art-form (although is can be used in artistic expression, of course) and, as such, it is generally more practical than romantic. That is my opinion, anyway.

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hidden codes are personal - some people share 'em, others don't.

Not really "codes" then are they?

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Not really "codes" then are they?

that was your word i used matey. i don't much like the term.

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Generally, it would be those (or the one) who coins the word that sets the association.

In the case of mater the context is one of 'predecessor' or 'that from which something came'. Materia or matter however is 'that from which something is made/formed'. The context is different, but the word association (origin) to that context is the same.

This is why it is unreliable to hypothesise hidden meanings across word associations, because often the context is not taken into account. It might seem romantic to 'see' hidden meanings, but language is a tool, rather than an art-form (although is can be used in artistic expression, of course) and, as such, it is generally more practical than romantic. That is my opinion, anyway.

That's very clear, i see what you mean. You've managed to lift some of the mystery of it for me - but the meaning, well would you believe it's deepened somewhat. I probably drive the more logically minded crazy.

Yes, language is a tool, a practical medium, but so is a brush and a tube of paint. It takes a creative mind, a gifted mediator, to do something magical with it for sure.

What are your thoughts on metaphor and meaningful coincidence by the way? Would you exclude language from taking on multi-layered meanings? Maybe that's not your area of interest but i'm interested to know your opinion on it.

I'm asking this because, call me crazy, That both mater and matter alude to 'origin' is still very meaningful to me, even more so.

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Here's what i think is a possibility concerning the evolution of language - I see a link between the words we use and the evolution of the symbolic language of the subconcious mind. The words we use and their origins have metaphysical significance that can be attributed to the archetypal symbolism of the psyche. I don't think there ever was a deliberate or conscious choice of the word 'matter' to signify the substance of everything in the material world by anyone in particular. If there was, i've not been able to find that kind of evidence.

I think it just evolved that way, naturally, and that this knowledge is innate. The receptive and the creative are the words we use for the symbolic origin of all things! 'Matter', feminine/receptive, 'Pattern'- masculine/creative.

I'm not talking absolutes, I'm making an observation. :innocent:

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Hi - I know this discussion happened months ago but just wanted to find out if you were still interested in discussing it. I too am very interested in the correlation between Mother and matter. I've been interested in physics for many years. I'm working on a story about nested worlds, nested universes and a mother who creates one for her daughter. A world within a world. And I keep coming back to the idea of the laws of quantum mechanics and the idea that electrons exist as a wave function until they are "observed". Only through observation do they "decide" their position. It leads me to believe that our universe requires some kind of outside observer in order to exist. Then I keep thinking about the origins of the word Mother and matter, creator of life, creator of the universe. And then I have this constant image in my head of nested Russian dolls. I don't know most of it is just random thoughts but I found this thread and was interested in any thoughts or discoveries you've made since your last post.

thanks.

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You then also have dura mater meaning TOUGH mother..hehe that always makes me laugh XD

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Most Etymologists agree that the word 'matter' is a derivitive of the latin word 'mater' meaning mother. How did this happen? and how does this relate to the word 'pattern' which is derived from the latin word for father? Deliberate or meaningful co-incidence?

Hmm I thought this was "debunked" in another topic.

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I'm in my second year of studying Classical and Scholastic Latin and I am pretty sure that everyone who is claiming this topic debunked is accurate.

The word matter comes from the Latin ' materia, materiae - the subtance from which things are made'. A noun of the first declension, feminine in gender.

It is possible it has relation to 'mater, matris- origin, mother', but other than the close spelling (as is common of many unalike Latin words i.e. the noun "bellum, belli- war" and the adjective "bellus, bella, bellum- pretty or handsome") I do not believe that there is any concrete evidence of a link between 'mater, martris' and matter.

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Posted (edited)

I'm in my second year of studying Classical and Scholastic Latin and I am pretty sure that everyone who is claiming this topic debunked is accurate.

The word matter comes from the Latin ' materia, materiae - the subtance from which things are made'. A noun of the first declension, feminine in gender.

It is possible it has relation to 'mater, matris- origin, mother', but other than the close spelling (as is common of many unalike Latin words i.e. the noun "bellum, belli- war" and the adjective "bellus, bella, bellum- pretty or handsome") I do not believe that there is any concrete evidence of a link between 'mater, martris' and matter.

Main Entry: or·i·gin

Pronunciation: \ˈȯr-ə-jən, ˈär-\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English origine, from Latin origin-, origo, from oriri to rise more at orient

Date: 15th century

1 : ancestry, parentage

2 a : rise, beginning, or derivation from a source b : the point at which something begins or rises or from which it derives <the origin of the custom>; also : something that creates, causes, or gives rise to another <a spring is the origin of the brook>

3 : the more fixed, central, or larger attachment of a muscle

4 : the intersection of coordinate axes

synonyms origin, source, inception, root mean the point at which something begins its course or existence. origin applies to the things or persons from which something is ultimately derived and often to the causes operating before the thing itself comes into being <an investigation into the origin of baseball>. source applies more often to the point where something springs into being <the source of the Nile> <the source of recurrent trouble>. inception stresses the beginning of something without implying causes <the business has been a success since its inception>. root suggests a first, ultimate, or fundamental source often not easily discerned <the real root of the violence>.

The term "Origin" relates to parentage you who claim otherwise are clearly incorrect.

Edited by Virtual Particle

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Most Etymologists agree that the word 'matter' is a derivitive of the latin word 'mater' meaning mother. How did this happen? and how does this relate to the word 'pattern' which is derived from the latin word for father? Deliberate or meaningful co-incidence?

Id say with the coincidence that the word matter- mater meaning mother in latin relates to females are creation. Matter is neither creater nor destroyed yet it is formed and deformed, an it may relate to the word pattern with father cause mother creates or forms and the father releases the pattern of the physical being, i suppose. Then you might tie it together with your mind, with all those terms father being the beginning the envision of the pattern and the mother being the matter being placed.

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Etymologies are weird. That's about as much of an explanation as there is.

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Etymologies are weird. That's about as much of an explanation as there is.

laugh.gif

To complicate mothers a bit further I have it from the Swedish Etymological word-book that the word mother, swedish moder, sanskrit matar, etc., is derived from the ancient childish word ma. Childish meaning what a small child would say.

The word matter, swedish materia, it is said, quote: "by some derived from mother, and in that case meaning original substance (mother-matter), but this is uncertain."

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Posted (edited)

I'm in my second year of studying Classical and Scholastic Latin and I am pretty sure that everyone who is claiming this topic debunked is accurate.

The word matter comes from the Latin ' materia, materiae - the subtance from which things are made'. A noun of the first declension, feminine in gender.

It is possible it has relation to 'mater, matris- origin, mother', but other than the close spelling (as is common of many unalike Latin words i.e. the noun "bellum, belli- war" and the adjective "bellus, bella, bellum- pretty or handsome") I do not believe that there is any concrete evidence of a link between 'mater, martris' and matter.

Why is that? Tell me about this holy grail of 'concrete' evidence a bit more...and what are your views on the evolution of language and the psyche?

Edited by illuminol

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Posted (edited)

Id say with the coincidence that the word matter- mater meaning mother in latin relates to females are creation. Matter is neither creater nor destroyed yet it is formed and deformed, an it may relate to the word pattern with father cause mother creates or forms and the father releases the pattern of the physical being, i suppose. Then you might tie it together with your mind, with all those terms father being the beginning the envision of the pattern and the mother being the matter being placed.

You mean the substance and the form!? the pattern is the form and matter the substance. But there is no coincidence, only a connection which has surfaced as a symbol (word) the symbol is flexible but it reflects a direct relationship between mater and matter. Actually, the substance and the form are interchangeable when i think about it!

Edited by illuminol

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laugh.gif

To complicate mothers a bit further I have it from the Swedish Etymological word-book that the word mother, swedish moder, sanskrit matar, etc., is derived from the ancient childish word ma. Childish meaning what a small child would say.

The word matter, swedish materia, it is said, quote: "by some derived from mother, and in that case meaning original substance (mother-matter), but this is uncertain."

and i love the uncertainty. Uncertainty is room to breath and space in which to explore.

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Hi - I know this discussion happened months ago but just wanted to find out if you were still interested in discussing it. I too am very interested in the correlation between Mother and matter. I've been interested in physics for many years. I'm working on a story about nested worlds, nested universes and a mother who creates one for her daughter. A world within a world. And I keep coming back to the idea of the laws of quantum mechanics and the idea that electrons exist as a wave function until they are "observed". Only through observation do they "decide" their position. It leads me to believe that our universe requires some kind of outside observer in order to exist. Then I keep thinking about the origins of the word Mother and matter, creator of life, creator of the universe. And then I have this constant image in my head of nested Russian dolls. I don't know most of it is just random thoughts but I found this thread and was interested in any thoughts or discoveries you've made since your last post.

thanks.

causality, there has to be an observation that in turn relies upon a possibility! the symbolic parental 'duo' of receptive and creative forces must create an environment in order to exist, but in multi dimensional space, there is no before or after, they would occur simultaneously ?

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Maia is mainly remembered today as the goddess of spring and rebirth, like the month of May that bears her name. "Maia" means "the maker," and every spring she makes the lush green grass and the fragrant flowers grow again. She is also praised as "the grandmother of magic" because her son [by Zeus], the god Hermes, was the first to discover that mysterious art.

Like Shakti ("Energy") and Prakriti ("nature"), Maya is less a Goddess than one of the great philosophic concepts of Indian Hinduism embodied in female form. In Hindu thought, the male energy is essentially passive, while the female is the force of action. Maya is one of those active powers: the constant movement of the universe, pervasive to the atomic level. There is no life -- no existence, even -- without Maya, but she is so powerful that we cannot see the essence of things and mistake her movement for reality. For this reason, Maya is often called "the veil of illusion," the dance of multiplicity that distracts us so that we cannot see all matter as essentially identical. Illusion, however, as the sages have stressed, is not the same as falsehood. Maya is not a negative force, but can be a mesh through which we perceive the ultimate reality of existence -- if we are not distracted by her magnificent creativeness and complexity.

http://www.menlo.com/folks/davis/Maya_Web/Maya_Name.html

I think you will like this next one Illuminol.

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html

The other big 'M' is universal or objective mind. To what extent is matter a construct of mind and vibrations and therefore this maya or illusion. It's a bit long but another good article on this topic.

http://www.ignca.nic.in/ps_04008.htm

There is something to be said for ma and pa as the words that come easiest to children.

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/linguistics/documents/where_do_mama2.pdf

However, during the development and progression of sankrit and indo-european languages the philosophy becomes ever more important. As sankrit is the root that went through greece and into rome as thought and philosophy the connection appears to be a good one IMHO.

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...

There is something to be said for ma and pa as the words that come easiest to children.

http://www.sussex.ac...re_do_mama2.pdf

...

thumbsup.gif

This is wonderfully explained.

Now, this conclusion is an error. There is absolutely no evidence that babbling

children are trying to speak, and in fact linguists are pretty sure they are not. Babbling

appears t o be no more than a way of experimenting with the vocal tract, and babbled

sounds like mama and dada are not intended as meaningful utterances. But the parents

think otherwise: they are sure little Jennifer is trying to talk.

But what is Jennifer trying to say? This is not obvious, and in fact the fond

parents can only guess what Jennifer means to say. And what guess does Mother come

up with? Does she guess that little Jenny is trying to say 'banana'? Or 'telephone'? Or

'go away'? No. In almost eve ry case, Mother concludes that little Jenny is trying to say

'mother'.

laugh.gif

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However, during the development and progression of sankrit and indo-european languages the philosophy becomes ever more important. As sankrit is the root that went through greece and into rome as thought and philosophy the connection appears to be a good one IMHO.

Please review this 'Family Tree' of the Indo-European languages, Jim, and perhaps then review your statement "sanskrit is the root which went through Greece and into Rome".

I-E Family Tree

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Please review this 'Family Tree' of the Indo-European languages, Jim, and perhaps then review your statement "sanskrit is the root which went through Greece and into Rome".

I-E Family Tree

Excellent link Leo, you are quite right my mistake. There is some debate ongoing but I do think the Anatolian hypothesis for the origin of PIE is the most likely.

Here is a funny link that has an example of a PIE translation. Well worth a look. :lol: Too long too post perhaps.

I meant root as in latin and germanic being derived from sanskrit rather than it being the root of all IEs. Is this accurate or do they have another source?

Still doesn't explain the connections with maya as the illusion. In greek it meant 'maker' which is comparable to matter. And now science is learning that to an extent matter is an illusion.

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Posted (edited)

Excellent link Leo, you are quite right my mistake. There is some debate ongoing but I do think the Anatolian hypothesis for the origin of PIE is the most likely.

Here is a funny link that has an example of a PIE translation. Well worth a look. :lol: Too long too post perhaps.

I meant root as in latin and germanic being derived from sanskrit rather than it being the root of all IEs. Is this accurate or do they have another source?

Still doesn't explain the connections with maya as the illusion. In greek it meant 'maker' which is comparable to matter. And now science is learning that to an extent matter is an illusion.

I am not a scholar of historical linguistics and only have an opinion based on what has been learned so far in that field (that I find agreeable), but it would appear that Sanskrit is not the (or a) root language of the Germanic or Italic languages, neither are the latter derived from Sanskrit (which is saying the same thing, really), but is a branch separate from them.

Perhaps they all share a common root (through successive 'ancestor' languages), but that root would not be Sanskrit.

Edited by Leonardo

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I am not a scholar of historical linguistics and only have an opinion based on what has been learned so far in that field (that I find agreeable), but it would appear that Sanskrit is not the (or a) root language of the Germanic or Italic languages, neither are the latter derived from Sanskrit (which is saying the same thing, really), but is a branch separate from them.

Perhaps they all share a common root (through successive 'ancestor' languages), but that root would not be Sanskrit.

It is not a co-incidence that Mat--- is the root for mother in most languages in the world, and Pat (Fat--) is the root for father in most languages as Sanskrit is the root language for most languages in the world including German in which mathr means maternal and pithr means paternal.

Maternal means substance which is formed and paternal means the design into which it is formed.

According to this analysis, the soil inside a garden will be classified as mother, and the seed of a plant as father.

The product (fruit or flower or seed will be the son which will become the father of a new generation.)

and the plant itself will rot and become the mother of the new generation. Thus the species of plant will re-generate itself year after year and ensure its continued existence for centuries to come.

This analysis will not be accepted by some groups for obvious reasons

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