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Abramelin

Did ancient native American seafarers cross

265 posts in this topic

I am sure I said earlier in this thread that people resembling the present day Saami (Lapps) may have taken part in the migrations to America, along with the Siberian Mongoloids.

And what chart are you talking about? The ones I posed about Doggerland??

Btw, the Bok Saga appears to me to be a hoax, just like the Dutch "Oera Linda Book".

Of course they did take part in the migration to Americas. Saami like all other Finns are closely related to the Mongolian tribes and almost share the appearance and languages. Finno-Ugoric group languages are very close to Mongolian and sometimes it is hard to distinguish between these tribes. Say Huns were little different from just Mongols, but we consider them Finns - their original territory is Siberia, next to Mongolia, it is called after them as their self name was Sabires (Obres, Sabres, Avares in another pronunciation), while the actual "Hun" is the same as Mongolian "khan", "mister", "sir" and "khanum", "missis", "lady". It seems these tribes divided into separate groups much later than the crossing to Americas took place.

But it seems only the very northern part of them was migrating, as the migrants did not know horses and were probably living off the sea and rivers.

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Posted (edited)

It may help if instead of satellite images you look at bathymetry maps of the ocean floor, as they normally colour-code the elevation levels. To find them I search for "bathymetry" or "ocean floor maps" or just ocean bottom.

Bathymetric maps of the North Sea floor will give us an idea of how Doggerland might have looked.

BUT...

That will only tell us how the bottom of that sea looks now, and not necessarily how Doggerland really looked when it was still above sea level.

The Storegga Slide must have re-shaped the look of it, and the 8100 years of strong sea currents did the rest.

Now they use other methods to give us a more exact picture, like looking below the present sediment (seismic/radar), and 'only' a part of the North Sea the size of Wales (east of England) has been mapped that way.

EDIT:

A bathymetric map of the North Sea (an old one) :

Map20of20North20Sea201906.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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Of course they did take part in the migration to Americas. Saami like all other Finns are closely related to the Mongolian tribes and almost share the appearance and languages. Finno-Ugoric group languages are very close to Mongolian and sometimes it is hard to distinguish between these tribes. Say Huns were little different from just Mongols, but we consider them Finns - their original territory is Siberia, next to Mongolia, it is called after them as their self name was Sabires (Obres, Sabres, Avares in another pronunciation), while the actual "Hun" is the same as Mongolian "khan", "mister", "sir" and "khanum", "missis", "lady". It seems these tribes divided into separate groups much later than the crossing to Americas took place.

But it seems only the very northern part of them was migrating, as the migrants did not know horses and were probably living off the sea and rivers.

Don't say "of course", it's just a possibility.

And it's quite easy to to distinguish between the Saami and the Mongoloids. I don't know where you get your information from...

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Posted (edited)

It may help if instead of satellite images you look at bathymetry maps of the ocean floor, as they normally colour-code the elevation levels. To find them I search for "bathymetry" or "ocean floor maps" or just ocean bottom.

ThankYou MARABOD, ah! bathymetry maps .. sounds promising... because yes.. it's hard to find the elevation levels.

AND.. Thanks again Abramelin. ..and ya.. as something you posted talking about "amazingly similar" Art design in the american and european Maritime Archaic is pretty strong evidence of contact i would GUESS. ????????????????????????????????

Edited by lightlyy

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ThankYou MARABOD, ah! bathymetry maps .. sounds promising... because yes.. it's hard to find the elevation levels.

AND.. Thanks again Abramelin. ..and ya.. as something you posted talking about "amazingly similar" Art design in the american and european Maritime Archaic is pretty strong evidence of contact i would GUESS. ????????????????????????????????

Well, watch the map I posted, and the elevation levels are there too.

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Posted (edited)

Someone called "pinguin" started 2 threads on another board about this topic:

http://www.allempire...4154_page1.html

http://www.allempire...topic19565.html

If you are intersted, then it's worth the trouble to read through both of these threads.

The problem with trying to prove ancient Americans did indeed cross the Atlantic by following the Gulf Stream is that we don't know how the Gulf Stream circled the nothern Atlantic many thousands of years ago, and certainly not right after the end of the last ice age (well, not that I know of, anyway).

gulfstream_schematic_500x389.jpg

But to me it seems far more likely that - if it ever happend - it may have been the Inuit or those that lived in Greenland and north east Canada before them.

The chances some vessel/raft/boat from the Caribbean (or Florida) ended up in Europe seems less because of the much larger chance they drifted further south while travelling along the Gulf Stream, and would turn south and back west, back to the Americas (and probably be long dead by then).

EDIT:

I think I found a site which describes how the Gulf Stream looked during the last ice age:

311a3-flow-lasticeage.gif

From The Last Ice Age to The Present

311a3-flow-present.gif

During The Last Ice Age

Edited by Abramelin

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Can anyone tell me if the socalled Irish "Iargalon", or "Land Beyond The Sunset", is just an invention by Brian Fell, based on what he said were Ogham inscriptions found in North America, or is it actually a real Irish name for some mythical land??

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Posted (edited)

Anyone hardly mentioned yet of the origin theory which has a few backings in the scientific community of American Indians of the west coast are alledgedly of Chinese or Japanese (or Proto-Siberian Asian) descent, when sailors in seafaring trade expeditions and fishermen boats landed on the Pacific coasts from Alaska to the US west coast (i.e. California) about 5000 years ago, and their descendants today have strong east Asian characteristics (both physiological, linguistic, cultural and religious) as a result of possible contacts with east Asians.

For anyone to contemplate Europe was inhabited by indigenous North Americans of "Australoid" or "Amerindoid" ancestors is too hard for me to accept as scientific truth. :unsure: The theory on light-skinned, blue-eyed "Indians" of the Pamlico Sound/Hampton Roads/Chesapeake Bay areas a result of the lost colony of Raleigh in the 1580s by British settlers came across "Caucasian white looking" tribes in the Jamestown colony is more mythological legend or to debunk stereotypes of what or how full-blooded North American Indians looked like.

The only known American Indians lived in post-Columbian Europe were brought to the British Isles, France, Spain and other nations of western Europe from the mid 16th to the late 19th centuries, often as captured slaves, tribal chiefs and/or diplomats, "human zoo" exhibits and sexual partners, and eventually died out in their maladjusted stays in Europe. But came World Wars I and II when US Army batallions with American Indian servicemen stayed or returned, and intermarried local European women, have progeny of mixed race descent.

Edited by Archangel Michael

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Posted (edited)

Anyone hardly mentioned yet of the origin theory which has a few backings in the scientific community of American Indians of the west coast are alledgedly of Chinese or Japanese (or Proto-Siberian Asian) descent, when sailors in seafaring trade expeditions and fishermen boats landed on the Pacific coasts from Alaska to the US west coast (i.e. California) about 5000 years ago, and their descendants today have strong east Asian characteristics (both physiological, linguistic, cultural and religious) as a result of possible contacts with east Asians.

For anyone to contemplate Europe was inhabited by indigenous North Americans of "Australoid" or "Amerindoid" ancestors is too hard for me to accept as scientific truth. dontgetit.gif The theory on light-skinned, blue-eyed "Indians" of the Pamlico Sound/Hampton Roads/Chesapeake Bay areas a result of the lost colony of Raleigh in the 1580s by British settlers came across "Caucasian white looking" tribes in the Jamestown colony is more mythological legend or to debunk stereotypes of what or how full-blooded North American Indians looked like.

The only known American Indians lived in post-Columbian Europe were brought to the British Isles, France, Spain and other nations of western Europe from the mid 16th to the late 19th centuries, often as captured slaves, tribal chiefs and/or diplomats, "human zoo" exhibits and sexual partners, and eventually died out in their maladjusted stays in Europe. But came World Wars I and II when US Army batallions with American Indian servicemen stayed or returned, and intermarried local European women, have progeny of mixed race descent.

No one here has been claiming it is a scientific truth ancient Americans might have visited ancient Europe and even lived there.

But there are scientific theories that say that during or after the last ice age not only Siberian Mongoloid people entered the Americas, but also those whose present descendants are now the Saami or Laps living in northern Scandinavia. In case that sounds unlikely, try to imagine this: right after the end of the ice age huge fresh water lakes appeared at the edge of the retreating ice sheets; it was possible to travel from what is now the North Sea to far along the northern coast of Siberia and that with only a boat, only occasionally having to travel over land.

Now one could say that if that happened, we should have found proof in the form of DNA in the native people living in Canada today, but it may have been that the numbers of those - let's say - ancestors of the Saami were in too small numbers to have a noticable impact on what we now call Native Americans. And if they sailed any further they might have hit a northern branch of the Gulf Stream, and ended up in Europe, going full circle.

Anyway, I still don't think it's impossible for the more recent, but PRE-Columbian Inuit to have ended up in Europe, long before any European ever visited the Americas.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Does curiosity and the desire to explore make sense?

People all over the world have crossed the oceans and migrated across the continents.

The obviosu question you guys are missing is the Aztecs belief that a red haired, white skinned God would arrive and destroyt the enpire from the east. That myth, freely available to read, indicates they were aware of Europeans.

The question is how?

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Posted (edited)

The obviosu question you guys are missing is the Aztecs belief that a red haired, white skinned God would arrive and destroyt the enpire from the east. That myth, freely available to read, indicates they were aware of Europeans.

The question is how?

The question is how old is that myth?

I have read a theory that that myth was somehow concocted by missionaries, as a way to give them a reason for conquering/Christianizing the Americas.

Like, we were here before, we were once their 'gods', now we come back, and continue with what we once did.

But even if that myth is a real true ancient Aztec myth, then it's about how Europeans once set foot on American soil, long before Columbus did.

I started this thread to prove it is possible the ancient Americans may have crossed the Atlantic long before Columbus or other Old World inhabitants.

Everybody is full of theories about how ancient Egyptians, Sumerians (?), Phoenicians, Africans, Vikings, Irish, and so on have contacted the Americas, but no one takes into account the possibility that the ancient Americans may have crossed the Atlantic long before all these people I mentioned did.

Even if it happened by accident, then it would still be important: it may have given all these ancient peoples I mentioned a reason to set out on the Atlantic and sail to the west.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The obviosu question you guys are missing is the Aztecs belief that a red haired, white skinned God would arrive and destroyt the enpire from the east. That myth, freely available to read, indicates they were aware of Europeans.

If the myth is so readily available, why don't you link us to it?

Please link to the actual myth itself, not to some fringe writer making claims about it.

Harte

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Hey, I found this article pretty interesting, the idea and concept greatly interests me. If us Europeans were intelligent enough to "find America" surely native Americans were at least intelligent enough, nay curious enough to explore?

I was already researching this topic when i read yours, please read this news link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6621319.stm strange eh? mind you its probably a long long way down the line DNA conclusion,

I also found this book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Transatlantic-Encounters-American-Indians-1500-1776/dp/0521865948/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274563993&sr=1-17 which I have read aparently speaks about Native Americans coming over here as slaves originally but some stayed and have bred into our people as we are today :)

Beautiful

Lauren

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The ancient Americans reached the so called world about 12000-10000 years ago by boats made of reeds and balsa wood, The ancient Americans were AQUATIC beings, meaning that their habit was on or next to a body of water, they got their food from rivers, lagoons lakes, their means of transportation was by water as same our road system. There are thousand of ancient anchors in the gulf of mexico, in the cost of the pacific ocean, they resemble much like the one in the so called old world. A semi round rock with opening on the top of the rock. Most of america had the same culture, we can see in their food they eat, religious believe, same modish, iconography, same language "ARWA", the Aymara language is its first daughter, according to ........the Aymara is ARA's (simple man) (the mispronounced version is ADAn) first language. The ancient Americans called themselves KARA " civilized Human " KA " land, city,country) ARA "simple man".

These KARAS found the sites of

  • SAKA KARA (those who came to stay) in EGYPT,
  • ARPA in india,
  • URUK, UR 'the land of the wet people, the land of rivers, or water people, o SEA people) in Mesopotamia,
  • KARA CHI "the completed people" in Pakistan,
  • also they entered the yellow river to found the first Chinese dynasty.

Their rulers used to wear a red mantle, and a red tunic, these rulers have a long ears as trail of leadership, while the clothing inked in red in the old world meant high status in the Americas the clothing inked in red was common among the peasants.

how about the alliance with the Europeans or colonies in Europe?

the KARAs reached Europe, I found some word in Aymara that resemble to Europeans languages, also there are some festivities that the Europeans that live in the mountain site have similarities to the Andes people.

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The ancient Americans reached the so called world about 12000-10000 years ago by boats made of reeds and balsa wood, The ancient Americans were AQUATIC beings, meaning that their habit was on or next to a body of water, they got their food from rivers, lagoons lakes, their means of transportation was by water as same our road system. There are thousand of ancient anchors in the gulf of mexico, in the cost of the pacific ocean, they resemble much like the one in the so called old world. A semi round rock with opening on the top of the rock. Most of america had the same culture, we can see in their food they eat, religious believe, same modish, iconography, same language "ARWA", the Aymara language is its first daughter, according to ........the Aymara is ARA's (simple man) (the mispronounced version is ADAn) first language. The ancient Americans called themselves KARA " civilized Human " KA " land, city,country) ARA "simple man".

These KARAS found the sites of

  • SAKA KARA (those who came to stay) in EGYPT,
  • ARPA in india,
  • URUK, UR 'the land of the wet people, the land of rivers, or water people, o SEA people) in Mesopotamia,
  • KARA CHI "the completed people" in Pakistan,
  • also they entered the yellow river to found the first Chinese dynasty.

Their rulers used to wear a red mantle, and a red tunic, these rulers have a long ears as trail of leadership, while the clothing inked in red in the old world meant high status in the Americas the clothing inked in red was common among the peasants.

how about the alliance with the Europeans or colonies in Europe?

the KARAs reached Europe, I found some word in Aymara that resemble to Europeans languages, also there are some festivities that the Europeans that live in the mountain site have similarities to the Andes people.

Creating a history of migrations based on almost nothing but a similarity in words is doomed to fail.

=

Ancient people reached the Americas long before your 12-10,000 years ago: check what they dug up in Monte Verde, Chile, and other archeological digs in Chile. Although there was initially heavy resistance against there being pre-Clovis people, it is now slowly being accepted that people arrived in the Americas much earlier.

=

Most probably they sailed along the coast and never leaving sight of the coast, using dugout canoes and/or wooden boats with outriggers. Where they must have landed is now below sea level:

post-18246-0-12324900-1359367100_thumb.j

To get an idea what kind of boats look at the boats of the present-day Haida and Kwakiutl in N/W America, or better, those of a century ago:

01-0-cronau-b.jpg

The Incas, much later, used balsa and reed for their boats, the Mayas only balsa as far as I know.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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