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Abramelin

Did ancient native American seafarers cross

265 posts in this topic

the answer to the OP is no, there would be hard evidence because it would have been a big deal.

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We need to ask why Angles, Saxons and Vandals started scalping people about 800 A.D.

Where did the idea come from?

Herodotus recorded scalping by ancient Scythians in central Asia and archaeologists have since unearthed skulls with likely scalping marks at Scythian sites. Evidence indicates Europeans were scalping from the Stone Age till as late as 1036 in England.

While Europeans did not originate scalping, they did encourage its spread through the establishment of bounties. New Englanders were apparently the first to grasp the usefulness of scalps as proof of death. In 1637 they began paying their Indian allies for either the heads of their Pequot enemies or, when the return distance was too great, the scalps. New Englanders were also first to pay whites for Indian scalps (1675-76). The egalitarian French upped the ante in 1688 by offering to pay for any enemy scalps, white or Indian.

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Show me!!

...for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
Timaeus, 360 BC

This was claimed by Plato as taken from Solon's memoirs in their part when the Egyptian priest Sonkhis tells him about the ancient records, Egyptians had. The memoirs themselves are lost but were mentioned in antiquity as then existing. It is not a fact or a historical record, and certainly in the times described (10,000 BC) there was no Maya or Nahuatl existing. Yet Plato seems more a historical source than, say, OP article. Any more solid ancient data would be appreciated.

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"We are not talking about the past few decades."

No, actually I was talking in general: people (in general, now and then) tend to do illogical and crazy things on a frequent basis.

The emergence of the media and other factors mean that in the past century people are much more inclined to do insane things then ever. While 500 years ago an insane feat that could have gotten you killed achieved only local appreciation, lately it became a potential source of huge income. No-one in, let's say, Classical Antiquity would have wanted to become the "First under-20 woman to sail around the globe unaided."

"Could you please prove this? I'm yet to see any connection between Tlapallan and Kukulkan."

That was my mistake, I meant the Mayas borrowed some of the myths from the Toltec (or whatever their true name must have been).

It is said that Kukulkan is a literal translation of the Nahua Quetzalcoatl, "Feathered Serpent".

Now I cannot prove this - I read it in a book, long ago - but the Maya also adopted other legends from the tribes (Toltecs?) that conquered them. So maybe they also had a Mayan translation for the Nahua "Tlapallan".

But Quetzalcoatl is most probably the combination of two different deities, the Kukulkan-like feathered serpent and a deified Toltec king. Tlapallan is connected to the latter, and I'm yet to find anything proving that he was worshipped by the Maya.

"There was one single segment of the Mayan peoples who ventured onto the sea and even they weren't dependent on it. "

That were the Chontal Mayas, and whether they were dependent on it, they did it anyway. And they could have learned a thing or two from the Carib/Arawak tribes who appear to have been great seafarers.

That's one big unknown

"No. It's a realistic look on things. Exactly why is Eurocentric to say that Mayans had no absolutely reason to do something they did not do?"

Because you look at it with a modern Eurocentric (better word: modern western) mindset. And I already posted about what could have motivated them, apart from trade.

I look at it with a descriptive mindset. There has been no voyages in pre-modern history that would have been similar to the Maya heading off towards Europe, so there's no reason to suppose it happened.

"Oh, and could you please prove your statement that the Maya had sails?"

That is the most interesting question, please read this http://www.jstor.org/pss/681400

And this is about seafaring Arawaks, not Mayas:

http://www.penn.muse.../14-3/Easby.pdf

"Meanwhile Columbus had reported huge dugout "canoes" with 70 and 80 paddlers, and one in Cuba big enough for 150 men and 70 feet long. Later in Jamaica he measured one of 96 feet. The large vessels has sails that could be used if the wind and the strong currents were favorable. The ubliquios dugouts ranged in size down to one-man canoes, and there were also rafts."

Now this is based on early reports, and it would not be a surprise to me that

-1- Columbus and his men could not distinguish between seafaring Arawak and Maya

-2- the Mayas had been in contact with these Arawak, and

-3- that they may have learned to sail the seas - with sails - from these Arawak/Carib.

EDITED to add NOT in statement -1-

.

Once again, unknowns. The Maya might have learned the use of sails (though there is no evidence for this anywhere, and all Maya depictions of boats are without sails), and for some unknown purpose they might have gone to Europe, even though there is zero evidence for this.

Not a particularly strong argument.

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Hi Marcos,

I don't know that book, and I've never heard of any captive native Americans being handed over by the Gauls to the invading Romans.

Of course I've Googled like crazy, but was unable to find anything about that online.

You have anything more on that, like links to Roman sources?

Hmm you're right, a source might be interesting for this.

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Hmm you're right, a source might be interesting for this.

That's why I posted to Marcos I found that (Roman) source (post 49 in this thread):

I found it, Marcos:

It's in chapter 5 of the book THE AMERICAN DISCOVERY OF EUROPE, "5. From Iberia to the Baltic: Americans in Roman and Pre-Modern Europe"

http://books.google.com/books?id=cd8yZn7MfSQC&printsec=frontcover&cd=1&source=gbs_ViewAPI#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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That's why I posted to Marcos I found that (Roman) source (post 49 in this thread):

Ooops sorry missed that one, my bad.

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Qoais, on 21 February 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

Show me!!

Quote

...for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

Timaeus, 360 BC

This was claimed by Plato as taken from Solon's memoirs in their part when the Egyptian priest Sonkhis tells him about the ancient records, Egyptians had. The memoirs themselves are lost but were mentioned in antiquity as then existing. It is not a fact or a historical record, and certainly in the times described (10,000 BC) there was no Maya or Nahuatl existing. Yet Plato seems more a historical source than, say, OP article. Any more solid ancient data would be appreciated.

Plato lied. Plato made the story of Atlantis up. Even if he was describing some land far, far away that he'd heard a story about, it wouldn't have been the Americas he was talking about. Unless of course, we can find proof that the Amerindians did in fact drift over to Eastern shores and somehow the scholars of Egypt heard about it. In the time he described, (10,000 BC) there were no Athenians either.

So inasmuch as this thread isn't supposed to be about Atlantis, it would go a ways in showing that the ancient priests of Egypt had heard tell about this land on the opposite side of the ocean if it can be shown that Indians did travel East. Also just a small point, Plato does not name the priest Solon talked with. Someone else gave the name Sonchis.

Edited by Qoais

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While the idea is interesting I find it unlikely. Don't see rafts and canoes doing too well out on the ocean. Don't think the various South American empires had the technology to make the trip safely, unless it was a complete freak occurance.

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While the idea is interesting I find it unlikely. Don't see rafts and canoes doing too well out on the ocean. Don't think the various South American empires had the technology to make the trip safely, unless it was a complete freak occurance.

The Chontal Maya were like the Phoenicians of the Caribbean, according to one of the links in my OP.

And Columbus encountered many huge rafts and vessels (or whatever you want to call them) of Indians in the Caribbean, vessels with lots of cargo and people onboard .

The Chontal Maya did sometimes travel the Caribbean for like 10 days on end before setting foot on land again (from Yucatan to Florida).

It is just not wellknown that they had the expertise to do it.

And what I liked about the book Puzzler mentioned (although I was not very impressed by the reasoning of the professor who wrote the book...) is that this professor suggested that European looking artifacts that showed up in Meso America were not brought in by Egyptians, Phoenicians or Romans, but were artifacts that these Indians collected and brought back home. Or that they depicted/sculpted what they encountered on their voyages to Europe and the Mediterranean.

Oh yes, I agree, it may have been a freak occurence, and I was never suggesting these contacts were planned or frequent.

And I am also not suggesting - I am getting the feeling people think I want to prove the Mayans or other American tribes - were responsible for the pyramids and other great feats in Europe. No way.

All I want to say is : could native Americans - Inuit, Carib, Mayans, Tupo-Guarani, Lenape, whoever - have reached Europe? And are there accounts of their travels?

And don't tell me these people should have had a logical reason to to set out on such a voyage.

People don't act on logic in general. They act, and invent a logical reason afterwards, and try to convince themselves and others that that was why they did what they did.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Moving around the islands of the Caribbean is one thing, traveling across the ocean to other land masses is quite another. I have no problem believing that the Mayan were able to move goods around the islands in certain seasons but for them to purposely travel across the ocean to Africa and Europe and even safely return? That I don't buy.

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Moving around the islands of the Caribbean is one thing, traveling across the ocean to other land masses is quite another. I have no problem believing that the Mayan were able to move goods around the islands in certain seasons but for them to purposely travel across the ocean to Africa and Europe and even safely return? That I don't buy.

I mentioned travels across the Caribbean Sea for 10 days. If they were travelling to Florida (which they very probably did) they may have been in a tropical storm, and were swept off corse (spelling?) and ended up at the Gulf Stream east of Florida.

And that is the way to get to Europe.

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VIEWS OF NATURE: OR CONTEMPLATIONS ON THE SUBLIME PHENOMENA OF CEEATION;

WITH SCIENTIFIC ILLUSTRATIONS.

BY ALEXANDER VON HUMBOLDT.

TRANSLATED FROM THE GERMAN BY E. C. OTTE, AND HENRY G. BOIIN.

WITH A FRONTISPIECE PROM A SKETCH BY THE AUTHOR, A FAC-SIMILE OF HIS HAND-

WRITING, AND A COMPREHENSIVE INDEX.

LONDON: HENRY G. BOHN, YORK STREET, COVENT GARDEN. 1850.

LONDON :

PRINTED BY HARBISON AND SON,

st. martin's LANE.

http://www.archive.org/stream/viewsofnatureorc1850humb/viewsofnatureorc1850humb_djvu.txt

Oceanic currents. In the northern part of the Atlantic the waters

are agitated in a true rotatory movement. That the first impulse to the

Gulf-stream is to be looked for at the southern apex of Africa, was a fact

already known to Sir Humphry Gilbert in 1560. Influence of the Gulf-

stream on the climate of Scandinavia. How it contributed to the

discovery of America. Instances of Esquimaux, who, favoured by

north-west winds, have been carried, through the returning easterly

inclined portion of the warm gulf-stream, to the European coasts. In-

formation of Cornelius Nepos and Pomponius Mela respecting Indians,

whom a King of the Boii sent as a present to the Gallic Proconsul

Quintus Metellus Celer ; and again of others in the times of the Othos,

Frederick Barbarossa, Columbus, and Cardinal Bembo. Again, in

the years 1682 and 1684, natives of Greenland appeared at the Orkney

Islands— pp. 120-125.

And Esquimaux are of course the Eskimos, the Inuit.

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Plato lied. Plato made the story of Atlantis up. Even if he was describing some land far, far away that he'd heard a story about, it wouldn't have been the Americas he was talking about. Unless of course, we can find proof that the Amerindians did in fact drift over to Eastern shores and somehow the scholars of Egypt heard about it. In the time he described, (10,000 BC) there were no Athenians either.

So inasmuch as this thread isn't supposed to be about Atlantis, it would go a ways in showing that the ancient priests of Egypt had heard tell about this land on the opposite side of the ocean if it can be shown that Indians did travel East. Also just a small point, Plato does not name the priest Solon talked with. Someone else gave the name Sonchis.

It is not Plato lied, it is YOUR belief that he did. Whatever logic you express and follow, it is not based on any source older than Timaeus, I hope you would agree on this? if not, then SHOW ME. It is easy to read Timaeus the same time watching at the Globe, as one can find on it exactly what Plato speaks about!

By the way Timaeus' text explains, that the mentioned "Athenians" were only called like that for Solon to understand where they were living and this did not imply the ancient nature of the Greeks, whom the same Sonkhis treats as a new culture with no historical records. You yourself call American native population "American Indians" despite they were neither Americans nor Indians but had their own names.

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If at present a philosopher/politician tells you a captivating story, would you believe the facts s/he presented?

Or would you have some second thoughts about what s/he said?

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If at present a philosopher/politician tells you a captivating story, would you believe the facts s/he presented?

Or would you have some second thoughts about what s/he said?

Was it about Plato? If so, which "second thought" Timaeus carries and how it is related to the "outer continent"?

Years after Timaeus Plato used Atlantis in a political dream about "perfect state", this is true... But not in Timaeus, this one is non-political.

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I mentioned travels across the Caribbean Sea for 10 days. If they were travelling to Florida (which they very probably did) they may have been in a tropical storm, and were swept off corse (spelling?) and ended up at the Gulf Stream east of Florida.

And that is the way to get to Europe.

No, that is the way to ship your dead corpse to Europe, considering you would not have packed enough pheasant under glass and port wine to feed and drink everybody on the several-month trip.

Harte

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Years after Timaeus Plato used Atlantis in a political dream about "perfect state", this is true... But not in Timaeus, this one is non-political.

Marabod, dude, much better to read up on something before you post about it, if (as in this case) you don't really know what the frak you're talking about.

Harte

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Marabod, dude, much better to read up on something before you post about it, if (as in this case) you don't really know what the frak you're talking about.

Harte

Clearly, Harte, you just don't understand the basic facts of Plato. The real Plato was a blithering idiot*, so incompetent that even when he wrote his own material, he had no idea what he really meant. It is therefore necessary to quote him grossly out of context, and if in doing so, he manages to sound contradictory to himself, well...

--Jaylemurph

*Except in those cases where he was an unquestionable genius who mean exactly, literally what he said. Unfortunately, mere students of logic and literature cannot tell the different instances. Only fringe hooligans can.

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post-86645-126687412806_thumb.jpg post-86645-126687415242_thumb.jpg

i posted these images earlier... i was just wondering if some islands on the mid Atlantic ridge, about halfway between the Americas and Europe and Africa might come in handy for transatlantic voyages ?? I think they all have fresh water and vegetation/food? I know Ascension Island does...

i'm having trouble finding much info on birds using the islands on migrations.. but i'd bet a quarter that they do.

I'm thinking that people seeing birds flying off into the Atlantic from the Americas and Carribean might give them the idea that they were flying somewhere ?? ... and i'm guessing that following the bird migrations might help them find the islands. ??

.. just a thought.. and i'll keep posting it till i get a comment + or - :lol:

Edited by lightlyy

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Marabod, dude, much better to read up on something before you post about it, if (as in this case) you don't really know what the frak you're talking about.

Harte

No need to be so patronising - it is enough to expand the thought from a one-liner to at least several lines. Please explain where in Timaeus the idea of "outer continent" servs in support to some another political idea. Too easy!

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No need to be so patronising

Sorry, it's my hobby - I'm a patron.

Please explain where in Timaeus the idea of "outer continent" servs in support to some another political idea. Too easy!

Please explain the following:

Years after Timaeus Plato used Atlantis in a political dream about "perfect state", this is true...

That's why I bolded it.

Now, Plato placed Atlantis out of reach in space and time which is still a common literary device, even to this day.

He did so as a way to ensure that it was "removed" from the ordinary and thus would remain extraordinary. Also, it was necessary as a literary device to explain why nobody had ever heard of Atlantis until Plato wrote about it.

Also, because the Greeks held the Egyptians in great esteem (based solely on the antiquity of their culture,) Plato had to make the Atlantean culture older than the Egyptian, in order to bestow on it the requisite amount of greatness one must have in such a story of a fall from grace.

Regarding the "opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean," the idea that the Atlantic was "surrounded" by land was a Greek belief. IIRC, it stems from the time when they believed that the ocean was actually a river that ran all around the world (and would thus obviously have two banks - two continents.) Plato mentions it here because the Greeks always thought this.

In fact, the Atlantic is not surrounded by "the opposite continent," is it?

You should read other works of Plato. You'll not find Timaeus so palatable as a "true story" once (if ever) you do.

Harte

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Sorry, it's my hobby - I'm a patron.

Please explain the following:

That's why I bolded it.

Now, Plato placed Atlantis out of reach in space and time which is still a common literary device, even to this day.

He did so as a way to ensure that it was "removed" from the ordinary and thus would remain extraordinary. Also, it was necessary as a literary device to explain why nobody had ever heard of Atlantis until Plato wrote about it.

Also, because the Greeks held the Egyptians in great esteem (based solely on the antiquity of their culture,) Plato had to make the Atlantean culture older than the Egyptian, in order to bestow on it the requisite amount of greatness one must have in such a story of a fall from grace.

Regarding the "opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean," the idea that the Atlantic was "surrounded" by land was a Greek belief. IIRC, it stems from the time when they believed that the ocean was actually a river that ran all around the world (and would thus obviously have two banks - two continents.) Plato mentions it here because the Greeks always thought this.

In fact, the Atlantic is not surrounded by "the opposite continent," is it?

You should read other works of Plato. You'll not find Timaeus so palatable as a "true story" once (if ever) you do.

Harte

Please, consider the following: Plato does not simply "mention" Atlantis or place it somewhere out of reach; he refers to the message from Solon's diaries/memoirs. These memoirs existed for 200 years BEFORE Plato and were known among the educated Greeks. Some copies of them were also existing centuries AFTER Plato, and were used by Plutarch to write Solon's Biography. This means if Plato lied about a source, then we would sure had the contemporary remarks blaming him in lying, but we do not have them.

In order to accuse Plato in telling lies one has to establish first that the source was referred falsely. This "factual" note from Timaeus has nothing in relation to what Plato himself was then making up of Atlantis, as when he was making it up, he did not refer to any source at all. It is the same as I refer to Napoleon's memoirs and tell about the battle of Waterloo - and then start to express my own fantasies about this battle without further referring to Napoleon. Different things!

If you expand the quoted passage in which Atlantis is mentioned, it would be clear that the existence of Atlantis was not the core issue of the dialogue at all, as the discussion between Solon and Sonkhis was about the historical records of different cultures and calamities which the Mankind could remember in the records. This also includes the story of Phaeton, most likely some asteroid impact, remembered by the Egyptians, while Atlantis story is only used to describe yet another catastrophe, which destroyed this island empire and killed the European population too, possibly with a giant tsunami; and we DO HAVE the evidence that Europe was covered with sea water in late Pleistocene so that Arctic ocean became temporary connected to Caspian Sea (we still have Arctic seals living in Caspian land-locked sea). So not only we do have the "outer continent" rediscovered by Amerigo Vespucci and Columbus, and we have stepped pyramids on this continent, but we have living evidence of the flood in Europe. We also have many dozens of impact craters, one of which must be from that Phaeton story. Where are the lies???

Our inability to find Atlantis itself in accordance with the Plato's message, goes along the similar our inability to find Troy in accordance to Homer - until someone, Schlimann in this case, invested some enthusiasm, money and energy and started to look for it exactly where the ancient book was placing it. But, as it was noted here, this thread is not about Atlantis at all, it is just a coincidence that Atlantis is found mentioned in the same passage as Americas - so there is no need for us to turn away from the topic. The quote from Plato mentions ancient NAVIGATION TO AMERICAS, and this is the reasons it was quoted, not to cause heart attack in jaylemurph.

Edited by marabod

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I was just reading an article at History News Network by George Erikson:Who Were The Earliest Americans.In the article he discusses that there were several pre-clovis groups of people that had traveled by boat to America.He states that some groups were of African,European,and Polinesian extraction.He also infers that these groups of people had been present in parts of North and South America before 12,000bp.

If these groups of people did arrive by boat it does not seem unreasonable that they could travel back and forth developing trade.It would also be reasonable to suggest that they could have exchanged knowledge with repect to building,art,science,and religion.Over a period of time as change of power occurs so would modification of social structure and myths,the knowledge of other cultures in different parts of the world may still have been available to these later cultures and it is posible that they were not traversing the unknown as we are assuming today.jmccr8

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that makes sense to me jmccr , easy for me to think outside the box tho.. because i'm never too sure what's supposed to be IN the tattered old box. :P

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