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icet925

End of the World: 2012 vs. 2060

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  1. 1. When will the end come?


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As you all may know, Issac Newton predicted that the world would end in 2060 based on mathematical equation of the bible's revelation.

However, there is another theory from Nostradamus and the Mayans that the world would end in the year 2012 based on the star alignments.

I opened up this poll to see which one people believe in more.

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As you all may know, Issac Newton predicted that the world would end in 2060 based on mathematical equation of the bible's revelation.

However, there is another theory from Nostradamus and the Mayans that the world would end in the year 2012 based on the star alignments.

I opened up this poll to see which one people believe in more.

yeeeah...the Mayans never said. ever.

newtons so called "predictions" mean nothing. and nostradomus and vague quatrains (very open to inrepretation) didnt predict it either.

but, seems everyones trying to connect dots here.

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Both wrong, the world will continue to exist. However, catastrophic events could reduce the population on a massive scale. I guess you could call that the "end of the world"

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Someone voted 2012.

LET'S KILL THEM!

:alien: Nick :alien:

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As you all may know, Issac Newton predicted that the world would end in 2060 based on mathematical equation of the bible's revelation. However, there is another theory from Nostradamus and the Mayans that the world would end in the year 2012 based on the star alignments.

I opened up this poll to see which one people believe in more.

You should believe none, Newton tried to mix religion and science, somehow that does not strike me as accurate or possible, as neither will agree on anything.

Nostradamus is so cryptic, that even translations into any other language than english are debatable, as sometimes he will use old french words with several meanings , sometimes he will use a homophone (One of two or more words, such as night and knight, that are pronounced the same but differ in meaning, origin, and sometimes spelling). There is no way to tell what he wanted to say.

The mayans did not predict anything, there is no such thing as a mayan prophecy to be found anywhere. Besides there are no extraordinary alignments in 2012 either, just the normal ones, the world has experienced thousands of time.

Both wrong, the world will continue to exist. However, catastrophic events could reduce the population on a massive scale. I guess you could call that the "end of the world"

A catastrophy could allways happen, prophecy or not, that's not really an argument.

Edited by TheSearcher

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Que? So, you are saying that Pacal Votan was not the Master of Time as known by the Mayans. Based on the various calendars he came to the date of Dec 21st 2012 apparently. To my knowledge there are 7 Mayan prophecies but none state that it will be the end of the world. For the umteenth time it refers to an end of age, the end of a complete cycle of the Mayan calendar, coincidentally it may occur along with environmental and spiritual changes but that is yet to be proven.

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this is an interesting site into the 2060 idea http://www.isaac-newton.org/newton_2060.htm it looks more at newton and his thinking than whether its true or not.

but no the world wont end but I guess at least newton "said" the world would end unlikely the mayans whos calendar has been horribly abused by moron. as for Nostradamus as its been pointed out he never really said 2012 (honestly the who book it came from is written in 3 different handwritings and partially missing and is pretty cryptic at best) people just add him to give weight to the argument.

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icet925

First You personally do not place much faith in the whole 2012 thing. So this thread is a puzzler to me.


Newton did not have any ANE materials to help w/ the man's calculations he made. He based some of them on the dimensions of the temple in heaven. Perhaps even someone like him wasnt able to get too much from so little to go on.

Edited by windandwave_

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Que? So, you are saying that Pacal Votan was not the Master of Time as known by the Mayans. Based on the various calendars he came to the date of Dec 21st 2012 apparently. To my knowledge there are 7 Mayan prophecies but none state that it will be the end of the world. For the umteenth time it refers to an end of age, the end of a complete cycle of the Mayan calendar, coincidentally it may occur along with environmental and spiritual changes but that is yet to be proven.

Erm I think we need to correct a few things here, because there is some wrong info that has entered the premises.

Pacal Votan, is not even a correct name, it was coined by José Arguelles, who claims to be an incarnation named "Valaum Votan," who will act as a "closer of the cycle" in 2012. Arguelles also claims a connection between Pakal and the semi-historical Toltec figure Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl, but this is not supported by archaeological or epigraphic evidence.

Daniel Pinchbeck, in his book 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (2006), also uses the name "Votan" in referring to Pakal.

This name, Pacal Votan, is not used for Pakal by Mayanist researchers such as academic archaeologists, epigraphers, and iconographers. Only two people out of thousands.

Here is what we know, the raw facts : Pacal Votan, or his real name, K'inich Janaab' Pakal (lived from 603 to 683), was ruler of the Maya polity of Palenque in the Late Classic period of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican chronology. During a reign of about 68 years, Pakal was responsible for the construction or extension of some of Palenque's most notable surviving inscriptions and monumental architecture.

After his death, Pakal was deified and said to communicate with his descendants. Pakal was buried within the Temple of Inscriptions. Pakal’s tomb was finally uncovered in 1952, after 4 years of clearing rubble. His skeletal remains were still lying in his coffin, wearing a jade mask and bead necklaces, surrounded by sculptures and stucco reliefs depicting the ruler's transition to divinity and figures from Maya mythology.

Now do you know why people would like him to be something he was not? Well, because of his magnificently carved sarcophagus lid. That sc*m Von Däniken started it and most other fringers ran with it.

Pacal-Votans-Tomb-Lid-big.jpg

Yes, it's the one that's used for ancient astronaut BS.

So basically, yes, I am saying that Pacal Votan was not the Master of Time as known by the Mayans, as such a caracter never existed.

What on earth is a "Mayan Master of time" anyway? And I'll say it again, the Mayan did not leave any prophecies in written or carved form for us to find. Maybe this link might help you understand what I mean. I don't agree 100%, but it will serve it's purpose.

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Erm I think we need to correct a few things here, because there is some wrong info that has entered the premises.

Pacal Votan, is not even a correct name, it was coined by José Arguelles, who claims to be an incarnation named "Valaum Votan," who will act as a "closer of the cycle" in 2012. Arguelles also claims a connection between Pakal and the semi-historical Toltec figure Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl, but this is not supported by archaeological or epigraphic evidence.

Daniel Pinchbeck, in his book 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (2006), also uses the name "Votan" in referring to Pakal.

This name, Pacal Votan, is not used for Pakal by Mayanist researchers such as academic archaeologists, epigraphers, and iconographers. Only two people out of thousands.

Here is what we know, the raw facts : Pacal Votan, or his real name, K'inich Janaab' Pakal (lived from 603 to 683), was ruler of the Maya polity of Palenque in the Late Classic period of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican chronology. During a reign of about 68 years, Pakal was responsible for the construction or extension of some of Palenque's most notable surviving inscriptions and monumental architecture.

After his death, Pakal was deified and said to communicate with his descendants. Pakal was buried within the Temple of Inscriptions. Pakal’s tomb was finally uncovered in 1952, after 4 years of clearing rubble. His skeletal remains were still lying in his coffin, wearing a jade mask and bead necklaces, surrounded by sculptures and stucco reliefs depicting the ruler's transition to divinity and figures from Maya mythology.

Now do you know why people would like him to be something he was not? Well, because of his magnificently carved sarcophagus lid. That sc*m Von Däniken started it and most other fringers ran with it.

Pacal-Votans-Tomb-Lid-big.jpg

Yes, it's the one that's used for ancient astronaut BS.

So basically, yes, I am saying that Pacal Votan was not the Master of Time as known by the Mayans, as such a caracter never existed.

What on earth is a "Mayan Master of time" anyway? And I'll say it again, the Mayan did not leave any prophecies in written or carved form for us to find. Maybe this link might help you understand what I mean. I don't agree 100%, but it will serve it's purpose.

Searcher,

Nice link. I like JMJ and what was said is the same as what I've been saying i.e. start of new age - 'world' alignment with galactic centre. As far as the prophecies go, my sources aren't great but to my knowledge they don't include Von Daniken. I have seen the name Jose Arguelles but am not all that familiar with his position.

One of my sources for Pacal Votan - http://www.13moon.com/pacal%20link.htm

"His prophecy is said to mythically emanate through his "Telektonon" - the "Earth Spirit Speaking Tube" - an actual, physical tube that can be found today right where it was constructed long ago - at the bottom of the 9-storied Temple of the Inscriptions, Palenque - Chiapas, Mexico (shown above.) This sacred plaster tube which runs from above ground, all the way down 69 steps to the underground chamber which holds Pacal's huge limestone sarcophagus tomb, was actually responsible for the re-discovery of the tomb by archeologist Alberto Ruz on June 15th, 1952. After finding a small piece of this white tile tubing, Ruz led a 3 year excavation process, (beginning in 1949) resulting in the unearthing of this ancient prophet's stone haven." - Perhaps a bit pseudo science for you.

Here is a link for the 7 Prophecies I mentioned. I'm not saying I support them but I am aware of them. If you can evaluate the credentials of the authors that would be appreciated by all I am sure. - http://www.angelfire.com/va3/ritas_nativeamerican/the-seven-mayan-prophecies.html

Hope that sheds light on what I was refering.

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If you go based on Biblical prophecy, I would estimate that sometime between mid 2019 and mid 2020 would be about the end of Revelations. A lot of huge things would have to happen for all of the prophecies to be fulfilled, who knows if they will, or won't be. As it stands now, I can see things headed in the direction mentioned in the Bible. Some would say that we are in the "Time of Sorrows" that Christ mentioned. I'm trying to keep in mind any source of prophecy I come across whether I believe them or not. Never know, one day it could save my ass.

Edited by SpiderCyde

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If you go based on Biblical prophecy, I would estimate that sometime between mid 2019 and mid 2020 would be about the end of Revelations. A lot of huge things would have to happen for all of the prophecies to be fulfilled, who knows if they will, or won't be. As it stands now, I can see things headed in the direction mentioned in the Bible. Some would say that we are in the "Time of Sorrows" that Christ mentioned. I'm trying to keep in mind any source of prophecy I come across whether I believe them or not. Never know, one day it could save my ass.

I agree it is wise to observe all propheciess even if we don't believe them and aren't quite ready to build a bunker. However, there is a danger of such prophecies being in the public eye. Take Revelations, it's been around a long time and although it is fairly cryptic it does give the ptb an opportunity to exploit us through staging events that closely match what is written. If events are manufactured does it leave prphecy unfulfilled? No, it means the prophecies are being partly filled but and everyone would be ready for Jesus to return. Again we are open to deception as they could create a phony Jesus. Jesus himself said we wouldn't recognize him or perhaps someone made it up. I don't want to miss the J man if he does stop by but I am determined to be vigilant and not be bought in by deceptions. I am heeding the advice of Rocky Balboa

I guess this is why there is some value in the Mayan prophecies. They were deliberately vague so that they could not be exploited but rather the people could take from it what they will and create a new world of their own making.

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Neither Nostradamus nor the Mayans said anything about the world ending in 2012. Heck, Nostradamus has predictions all the way past year 3000.

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Neither Nostradamus nor the Mayans said anything about the world ending in 2012. Heck, Nostradamus has predictions all the way past year 3000.

The only people saying the world will end in 2012 or anyother date in a literal sense are crack pot and unimaginative fringe authors. What is likely is that 2012 to 2060 will be a time of conflict of ideals if not nations, although friction between nations seems to be on the rise. Nostradamus was undoubtedly acquainted with Revelations so we can assume that he used it as a basis for his prophecy or they just happenned to coincide. There are striking similarities between the two and to me suggests we are approaching the End Times. Not end of world but end of an epoch. How it turns out I dunno? But in 2061 they'll probably make a film about it.

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Both wrong, the world will continue to exist. However, catastrophic events could reduce the population on a massive scale. I guess you could call that the "end of the world"

what catastrophic events? even though thats Vague, anything events (eartquake, hurricane, etc) could happen.

Edited by Agent. Mulder

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The only people saying the world will end in 2012 or anyother date in a literal sense are crack pot and unimaginative fringe authors. What is likely is that 2012 to 2060 will be a time of conflict of ideals if not nations, although friction between nations seems to be on the rise. Nostradamus was undoubtedly acquainted with Revelations so we can assume that he used it as a basis for his prophecy or they just happenned to coincide. There are striking similarities between the two and to me suggests we are approaching the End Times. Not end of world but end of an epoch. How it turns out I dunno? But in 2061 they'll probably make a film about it.

Common Slim you know it was you that voted 2012!!! admitt it!! Just kidding, would'nt want an old fashioned UM Lynching on our hands!! Man Im so out of the loop these days, so just were does this new date of 2060 come into play?

And isn't there an actual astroid heading our way somewhere around the 2030s, that could actually swoop below our satilites?

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Searcher,

Nice link. I like JMJ and what was said is the same as what I've been saying i.e. start of new age - 'world' alignment with galactic centre. As far as the prophecies go, my sources aren't great but to my knowledge they don't include Von Daniken. I have seen the name Jose Arguelles but am not all that familiar with his position.

One of my sources for Pacal Votan - http://www.13moon.com/pacal%20link.htm

"His prophecy is said to mythically emanate through his "Telektonon" - the "Earth Spirit Speaking Tube" - an actual, physical tube that can be found today right where it was constructed long ago - at the bottom of the 9-storied Temple of the Inscriptions, Palenque - Chiapas, Mexico (shown above.) This sacred plaster tube which runs from above ground, all the way down 69 steps to the underground chamber which holds Pacal's huge limestone sarcophagus tomb, was actually responsible for the re-discovery of the tomb by archeologist Alberto Ruz on June 15th, 1952. After finding a small piece of this white tile tubing, Ruz led a 3 year excavation process, (beginning in 1949) resulting in the unearthing of this ancient prophet's stone haven." - Perhaps a bit pseudo science for you.

Here is a link for the 7 Prophecies I mentioned. I'm not saying I support them but I am aware of them. If you can evaluate the credentials of the authors that would be appreciated by all I am sure. - http://www.angelfire.com/va3/ritas_nativeamerican/the-seven-mayan-prophecies.html

Hope that sheds light on what I was refering.

SlimJim, mate, allow me to enlighten you (pun intended :devil: )

Your sources for Pacal Votan - http://www.13moon.com/pacal%20link.htm, confirm something I already thought. Your info about Pacal Votan, comes from one Hunbatz Men. People might recognize the name, as he is a self-proclaimed Maya shaman, conducts tours of Chichen Itza and other Maya sites for foreigners wishing to learn about Maya spiritualism. His ideas are not those of traditional Maya, simply typical New Age spiritualism using Maya words.

Whoever he really is , he looks to be a busy guy . He has at least one book , a video , a Cosmic Mystery School that claims to have been started through the vision and direction of Hunbatz Men http://www.cosmicmysteries.com/

Prices start as low as $9.95/month or $99.95/year and includes a personal quartz crystal which has been blessed in sacred ceremony at a sacred pyramid site in Mexico, up to the delux Level Gold which includes, and I qoute :

Monthly Tax Deductible Contributions of $499.95 Receive:

1. Free Quarterly teleconferences with Wisdom Elders who will share their ancient wisdom Teachings with us to raise the energy of Light on the Earth. (one of the featured elders will be Hunbatz Men).

2. Free Monthly DVD or CD of teachings shared by the Cosmic Mysteries School and Wisdom Elders to raise the energy of Light on the Earth.

3. The Huge Light Frequency Bonus of Books 1, 2 and 3 of "Mayan Solar Education", the oral teachings of Hunbatz Men by Patricia Morris Cardona.

4. Monthly Healing Sessions with The Fire Priestess Healer, Patricia Morris Cardona.

5. An opportunity to participate in 4 weekend seminars with The Cosmic Mysteries School.

6. An opportunity to participate in a trip to a sacred site in the USA for ceremonial teachings.

7. Your medicine pouch with your personal power animal symbol.

8. Your personal bag of sacred copal incense used for cleansing and blessing harvested from Mexico.

9. Your personal red headband for sacred ceremony which is traditionally used by the Maya in Mexico.

10. Included at this level are quarterly personal ceremonies performed at the pyramid for you to bring healing or other positive requests to you

11. An opportunity to participate in a spiritual adventure in Mexico to receive private group ceremonial instruction with our Mayan elder Hunbatz Men at the sacred pyramidal site of Lol Be.

Though this school is supposedly started by Hunbatz Men, it looks to be run by Patricia Morris Cardona and Daniel Cardona, who mention studying with a Swami and South American persons I have never heard of. They do mention studying with North American Pa'Ris'Ha, a Cherokee Elder.; Eagle Man, Oglala Sioux Elder; and Amylee, a Medicine Woman of the Oglala Sioux. The three latter ones are known conpeople.

Take, North American Pa'Ris'Ha, a Cherokee Elder for example. Her real name is Patricia Taylor and was sentenced (in 2005 I believe) for fraud in a phony enrollment scam where she laid claim to all the land of the old Louisiana Territory.

Eagle Man, the Oglala Sioux elder, has for real name Ed Mcgaa, is a lawyer posing as an elder, if I'm not mistaken.

Here's an interresting site for you http://www.newagefraud.org/index.html

Sorry mate, when it sounds like a con, smells like a con and looks like a con, it usuallly is.

The second page I open on your site and who do I find? Our good friend Dr. Jose Arguelles, the self-made avatar of Pakal Votan.

On the third page we find all the other new age ideas aboout 2012, from J.M. Jenkins to Carlos Barrios (another self-made Maya).

After that I've checked quickly and to be honest this site is a vehicle for Jose Arguelles, no more, no less. This is who he is.

On another matter, where are these 7 prophecies set in stone? Your site does not mention it anywhere. I would like to know who translated the glyphs, on what building they were found etc. Cause otherwise, it's just a nice story, nothing else.

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What would we do without you? The skeptical view is an essential process for all to discover their own feelings on these things. I admit there is a possibility that they are fraudsters. I do find it amuzing that skeptics love to put Von Daniken in there just to discredit anything else that is being discussed. Just as there is a possibility of fraud there is a chance that the people mentioned entirely believe everything they write about and feel that they are offering a genuine service that produces results. Sure, it could be put down to the placebo effect but there is just a slightest chance that they are right and the Mayanist scholars are wrong. History is not the full picture rather what the dominant forces allowed to be saved, the rest gets destroyed, corrupted or hidden. South America has a lot of unexplored areas that could hold important clues but that's goign off the point. They are only committing a fraud if they are knowingly deceiving others. From what I have read they are not thus I see them as either misguided but harmless or the real deal and therefore worthy of $99.95 per annum. Check out this site on the Cordona's http://www.intermetu.com/instructors/instructors/pdcardona.html

Beware of using Nu Age as an umbrella term. That is what is desired i.e. if this new age is BS then all of it must be. Consider writers on their merits and assess what resonates personally. If it doesn't hit the right note then fair enough there is plenty more to fill one's days. Assuming the world doesn't end of course. :devil:

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yeeeah...the Mayans never said. ever.

newtons so called "predictions" mean nothing. and nostradomus and vague quatrains (very open to inrepretation) didnt predict it either.

but, seems everyones trying to connect dots here.

yes, the mayans did say, mr mulder.

But no it wasn't star alignments. It was based on the geology of the planet, and the 5,200 year cycles it took, as they were able to discern by their advanced study of other planets and stars, by implementing a calendar which worked in an intricate and complex way, to determine that there would be, and i qoute the maya here "A Formiddable Event." Formiddable would be from the destruction of a lot of the surface, changing the face of the world as it did approximately 5,100 years ago, determined by the fact that at this time period, there was an event that took place, called a pole shift.

I live in new zealand, which is currently placed at the approximate latitude and longitude as the formerly Lush, and green Antarctica, or south pole, which appears to have shifted a distance from where it was to become the south pole, at around the time the maya long count calendar began.

True reference of realistic date: 21.12.3162

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yes, the mayans did say, mr mulder.

"A Formiddable Event."

True reference of realistic date: 21.12.3162

Where did the Mayans say this? Please provide an example.

Please provide documentation of some sort of the Mayans describing "a formidable event".

What is the basis for the start of this "realistic date"?

A catastrophy could allways happen, prophecy or not, that's not really an argument.

I'm not arguing. I'm attempting to bring focus to the difference between "the end of the world" and a catastrophe that would reduce the human population globally on a massive scale.

Global catastrophes have happened in our history. They have affected the human race on massive scales. Just because someone says "end of the world" making everything sound silly doesn't mean we should completely disregard it as mumbo jumbo. Take everything with a grain of salt. Disproving the unknown proves nothing more than we still don't know.

Edited by jholland

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yes, the mayans did say, mr mulder.

But no it wasn't star alignments. It was based on the geology of the planet, and the 5,200 year cycles it took, as they were able to discern by their advanced study of other planets and stars, by implementing a calendar which worked in an intricate and complex way, to determine that there would be, and i qoute the maya here "A Formiddable Event." Formiddable would be from the destruction of a lot of the surface, changing the face of the world as it did approximately 5,100 years ago, determined by the fact that at this time period, there was an event that took place, called a pole shift.

yeeeeah, they never did. unless you know something that ALL mayan historians dont.

do you?

stating "the end of a cycle" due to religious beliefs does not = "the end of the world". and how did the face of the world change in, what, 3090?

I live in new zealand, which is currently placed at the approximate latitude and longitude as the formerly Lush, and green Antarctica, or south pole, which appears to have shifted a distance from where it was to become the south pole, at around the time the maya long count calendar began.

True reference of realistic date: 21.12.3162

yes, our continents have moved. your point?

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What would we do without you? The skeptical view is an essential process for all to discover their own feelings on these things. I admit there is a possibility that they are fraudsters. I do find it amuzing that skeptics love to put Von Daniken in there just to discredit anything else that is being discussed. Just as there is a possibility of fraud there is a chance that the people mentioned entirely believe everything they write about and feel that they are offering a genuine service that produces results. Sure, it could be put down to the placebo effect but there is just a slightest chance that they are right and the Mayanist scholars are wrong. History is not the full picture rather what the dominant forces allowed to be saved, the rest gets destroyed, corrupted or hidden. South America has a lot of unexplored areas that could hold important clues but that's goign off the point. They are only committing a fraud if they are knowingly deceiving others. From what I have read they are not thus I see them as either misguided but harmless or the real deal and therefore worthy of $99.95 per annum. Check out this site on the Cordona's http://www.intermetu.com/instructors/instructors/pdcardona.html

Beware of using Nu Age as an umbrella term. That is what is desired i.e. if this new age is BS then all of it must be. Consider writers on their merits and assess what resonates personally. If it doesn't hit the right note then fair enough there is plenty more to fill one's days. Assuming the world doesn't end of course. :devil:

Well at least I got you thinking and admitting the possibility. There is one thing I can tell you though and this I know with certainty. Native people do not believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching and they believe the only acceptable way to transmit traditional teachings is orally and face-to-face. The people here are either misguided or frauds, but one thing is certain, whatever they teach and how they teach it, is against any Native tradition and custom.

I can understand that you would like to give the benefit of the doubt, but for heavens sake, at some point you need to open your eyes and recognise the clap trap for what it is. The fact that the Cordona's are nicely portrayed on a New Age site, means nothing, that's where they get their victims.. erm.. clients I mean.

Slim, I you're a good guy, I like discussing with ya, but sometimes you cause me to facepalm really hard.

Oh and btw, I only mentioned Von Däniken, because he happened to be the first one, to use and interpret the sarcophage cover in a creative way. I don't need him to discredit anything else, I can do that on me own :P

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icet925

First You personally do not place much faith in the whole 2012 thing. So this thread is a puzzler to me.


Newton did not have any ANE materials to help w/ the man's calculations he made. He based some of them on the dimensions of the temple in heaven. Perhaps even someone like him wasnt able to get too much from so little to go on.

Yeah I personally don't place much faith into this whole 2012 thing. You are correct, however I do enjoy reading these theories because it is intriguing. Basically, I want to see which theories people believe in the most.

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Well at least I got you thinking and admitting the possibility. There is one thing I can tell you though and this I know with certainty. Native people do not believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching and they believe the only acceptable way to transmit traditional teachings is orally and face-to-face. The people here are either misguided or frauds, but one thing is certain, whatever they teach and how they teach it, is against any Native tradition and custom.

I can understand that you would like to give the benefit of the doubt, but for heavens sake, at some point you need to open your eyes and recognise the clap trap for what it is. The fact that the Cordona's are nicely portrayed on a New Age site, means nothing, that's where they get their victims.. erm.. clients I mean.

Slim, I you're a good guy, I like discussing with ya, but sometimes you cause me to facepalm really hard.

Oh and btw, I only mentioned Von Däniken, because he happened to be the first one, to use and interpret the sarcophage cover in a creative way. I don't need him to discredit anything else, I can do that on me own :P

I'm reading up on EVD right now. He covers the majority of the typical mysteries and claims to be the biggest selling non fiction author world wide. I am sure that is debatable but even worse the man has a theme park in Switzerland and is planning more worldwide. Switzerland being a tax haven and all makes sense but this guy does seem pretty money motivated.

On the othere side maybe he is just accruing wealth so he can invest it in benevolent projects but I'm not so sure. As for the Cordona's I can see little harm and a fair bit of value in what they do. It's not for all sure but diversity is good and I see nowt wrong in people becoming more spiritual as time goes on. If they are deceiving people with false promises then that is different but I think these sort of people need to be humoured and tolerated above all else. It's always good to have an alternative view just not when it becomes dogma that 'MUST' be believed.

I checked out the New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans web site. Nice name :blink: Anyway a lot of it was still under construction but there is obviously something to it. All the Nu Age gumpf does make people susceptible to scams but in every handful there maybe one genuine article that is doing it for the right reasons. You can take money without being profit driven It is called not for profit enterprise or something and is really catching on because of all the tax breaks you get. I don't imagine too many native american shamans have a good tax lawyer but I am sure the phonies can be just as convincing as the real deal. Therefore, all we can do is be vigilant with regards to what we read and try and discriminate the wheat from the chaff. On that site I thought the use of colours was strange and they denied the relevance of the term shaman. Much to consider but as yet the jury is still out for me at least. Cheers Search, how many face palms have I given you today. I'm counting about four. lol :P

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As you all may know, Issac Newton predicted that the world would end in 2060 based on mathematical equation of the bible's revelation.

However, there is another theory from Nostradamus and the Mayans that the world would end in the year 2012 based on the star alignments.

I opened up this poll to see which one people believe in more.

I'm expecting something big to happen in 2012.

I kind of suspect it will come fron CERN and be proof of extra dimensions. As the experts settle down and try to figure out what the implications of extra dimensions are they will realise they have just proved the existance of God.

This will cause religion to make a spectacular comeback which will cause major upheavel around the would with those who have built their whole existance on atheism attempting to destroy religion. 'The Phlight of the fallen' talked about in religion will occur and they will start WW3 to try and destroy religion.

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