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GlassButterfly

Terra Calalus- an Ancient Roman colony in USA

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Did Terra Calalus really exist?

I recently spoke to a friend who told me that ancient Roman artifacts had been found near Tucson, Arizona, dating back to around 900 A.D. near a place called Silverbell Road. Fascinated, I searched for this topic on the internet and found only a few small articles on the subject. Here is a magazine article I found on it (unforunately you have to scroll halfway through the scanned document to read it) but it IS interesting. There are photos included of a Roman sword with carvings on it supposedly mentioning how they came to Arizona via the Gulf of Mexico & hiking for over a 1,000 miles across Texas & New Mexico. I've been a resident of Arizona for a long time and I've never heard of this until like a week ago. I'm wondering why nothing much has been mentioned about it since 1980... Google doesn't have much info on it, either, save for a few grainy photos of the artifacts and a couple of brief mentions here and there. This would seem to be a pretty significant find, so I wonder where these artifacts (swords, coins, pots, pans, etc) are today?

Link to the article is here: Terra Calalus

An article mentioning Romans in Texas history is here

Has anyone ever heard of this?

Edited by GlassButterfly

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Details of the finds make it easy to cry hoax, and such a thing would disrupt modern history somewhat. It's a strong conceit that Columbus was among the first to discover America. To say anyone besides the Vikings beat him to the punch would rather upset the whole idea of this being the "New World".

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The story has all the markings of political and academic mishandlings common of such archeological sites of the times. Arizona is home to many archaeological finds that have been suppressed by universities and government hush-up’s. This is the first I have heard of this but until more physical proof can be established the suppression will continue. Even though it’s a buried topic.

Great find though. :tsu:

Edited by Talion

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The story has all the markings of political and academic mishandlings common of such archeological sites of the times. Arizona is home to many archaeological finds that have been suppressed by universities and government hush-up’s. This is the first I have heard of this but until more physical proof can be established the suppression will continue. Even though it’s a buried topic.

Great find though. :tsu:

That's the same thing I wondered - who buried this story? It does sound like a hoax, but there's no mention - anywhere - of a hoax involving bogus Roman artifacts in Arizona. The article's so old that the person who wrote it might be in a retirement home or passed on by now, but this intrigues me just enough to make some phone calls and ask around about it. Next thing, I suppose, is to find out if the site out at Silverbell is still there...

thanks,

GB

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Details of the finds make it easy to cry hoax, and such a thing would disrupt modern history somewhat. It's a strong conceit that Columbus was among the first to discover America. To say anyone besides the Vikings beat him to the punch would rather upset the whole idea of this being the "New World".

Agreed - Columbus received far more credit than he was due. There's evidence that the Chinese & Mongolians were here around 1000 A.D. and traveled from Alaska all the way down to the Californian coast. If there's proof that the Romans were here too, that should definitely have raised more than a few eyebrows. Talk about rewriting the history books!

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Did Terra Calalus really exist?

I recently spoke to a friend who told me that ancient Roman artifacts had been found near Tucson, Arizona, dating back to around 900 A.D. near a place called Silverbell Road. Fascinated, I searched for this topic on the internet and found only a few small articles on the subject. Here is a magazine article I found on it (unforunately you have to scroll halfway through the scanned document to read it) but it IS interesting. There are photos included of a Roman sword with carvings on it supposedly mentioning how they came to Arizona via the Gulf of Mexico & hiking for over a 1,000 miles across Texas & New Mexico. I've been a resident of Arizona for a long time and I've never heard of this until like a week ago. I'm wondering why nothing much has been mentioned about it since 1980... Google doesn't have much info on it, either, save for a few grainy photos of the artifacts and a couple of brief mentions here and there. This would seem to be a pretty significant find, so I wonder where these artifacts (swords, coins, pots, pans, etc) are today?

Link to the article is here: Terra Calalus

An article mentioning Romans in Texas history is here

Has anyone ever heard of this?

The problem you have here is "the Roman Empire" had crumbled and ceased to exist about 400 years prior to this date, 900 AD was the Italian middle ages.

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The problem you have here is "the Roman Empire" had crumbled and ceased to exist about 400 years prior to this date, 900 AD was the Italian middle ages.

I'm just posting an article, I didn't write it. I'm not saying it's genuine. It's a curiosity to me, that's all. The article itself says the colony (according to the relic) is dated from around 750 to 900 A.D. That's still 600-700 years before the first Spaniards showed up over here and right around the time the Roman Empire became the "Holy Roman Empire." The last Roman Emperor is listed as Constantine XI in 1448-53 A.D. Even throughout all of this, the Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire still had plenty of far-flung outposts, so settling Terra Calalus is not out of the realm of possiblity. It sure would be nice to see those relics, though. Any argument is just speculation without them.

Here's a timeline of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire

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Details of the finds make it easy to cry hoax, and such a thing would disrupt modern history somewhat. It's a strong conceit that Columbus was among the first to discover America. To say anyone besides the Vikings beat him to the punch would rather upset the whole idea of this being the "New World".

Really?

Who cares enough about it for it to be a conceit?

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I'm just posting an article, I didn't write it. I'm not saying it's genuine. It's a curiosity to me, that's all. The article itself says the colony (according to the relic) is dated from around 750 to 900 A.D. That's still 600-700 years before the first Spaniards showed up over here and right around the time the Roman Empire became the "Holy Roman Empire." The last Roman Emperor is listed as Constantine XI in 1448-53 A.D. Even throughout all of this, the Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire still had plenty of far-flung outposts, so settling Terra Calalus is not out of the realm of possiblity. It sure would be nice to see those relics, though. Any argument is just speculation without them.

Here's a timeline of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire

Roman and central european history is well known and well documented.

Millions of texts survive and not one has ever indicated they explored the Americas. Furthermore where are the Roman ruins and civilization in the states? A cross can be planted a city cannot.

Total hoax if ever there was one.

The only claims of pre-Coloumbus Europeans in the Americas I am open to are the Irish and Viking as both have accounts written in their historical documents. To date only a Viking settlement has been found in Newfoundland but we dont know if that was Vinland.

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Really?

Who cares enough about it for it to be a conceit?

Have you ever tried passing the 1421 Chinese theory across historians? I wasn't talking about a common person conceit, I was talking about the people who are still writing our history books. They don't seem willing to accept much beyond Columbus and the Vikings.

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They don't seem to have a problem asking for evidence.

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Have you ever tried passing the 1421 Chinese theory across historians? I wasn't talking about a common person conceit, I was talking about the people who are still writing our history books. They don't seem willing to accept much beyond Columbus and the Vikings.

Agreed. Chinese artifacts have been found in California that date back well before the arrival of Columbus and possibly even the Vikings. I believe this is deliberately overlooked because no one wants to openly question the origin of Native Americans. It's not "P.C."

@ Alien Being:

I don't know if Romans were here or not, but I highly doubt we've found ALL Roman records, especially if they managed to land in the Americas. Chances are if a small group of Romans managed to wander this far away, they never returned home. The native people here weren't friendly to the idea of being enslaved. Besides, it wasn't like these theoretical Romans would have had a way to send word back to the Roman Empire saying, "Hey, guess where we're at!" Being in the Sonoran desert back then would have been akin to landing on the moon.

Roman coins have been found in archealogical digs in Florida & Texas. True, Spaniards could have brought them, but why so many? Until we've literally found all records of Roman travels (which is impossible), there's always room for new possibilities, IMO.

A list of strange artifacts from early Europe have been found all over the Americas. Here's an article on that very subject. Roman Coins in America

Edited by GlassButterfly

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I'm just posting an article, I didn't write it. I'm not saying it's genuine. It's a curiosity to me, that's all. The article itself says the colony (according to the relic) is dated from around 750 to 900 A.D. That's still 600-700 years before the first Spaniards showed up over here and right around the time the Roman Empire became the "Holy Roman Empire." The last Roman Emperor is listed as Constantine XI in 1448-53 A.D. Even throughout all of this, the Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire still had plenty of far-flung outposts, so settling Terra Calalus is not out of the realm of possiblity. It sure would be nice to see those relics, though. Any argument is just speculation without them.

Here's a timeline of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire

The creation of the holy Roman empire is something completely different from being "Roman" Artefacts from that period would be classified as being Byzantium.

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[quote name='Alien Being' date='27 February 2010 - 12:13 AM'

The only claims of pre-Coloumbus Europeans in the Americas I am open to are the Irish and Viking as both have accounts written in their historical documents. To date only a Viking settlement has been found in Newfoundland but we dont know if that was Vinland.

The most plausible evidence of anyone setting foot on mainland America before Columbus is John Cabot in his ship the Matthew.

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There have been unsubstantiated stories of Egyptian Pyramids in caves in the Grand Canyon. Of course, if no one finds them ever again, they will remain mythical.

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calix1.jpg

The Calixtlahuaca Head

(...)

In 1961, the Austrian anthropologist Robert Heine-Geldern examined the head and declared that it derived "unquestionably" from the Hellenistic-Roman school of art. He found that its "distinctive Naturalism" suggested a date "around AD 200." Heine-Geldern was an expert on South-East Asia, but he reported in a communication quoted by García Payón (1961) that his view that it was Roman from circa AD 200 had been confirmed by Prof. Boehringer, then president of the German Archaeological Institute. [Paragraph revised 6/5/00.]

The head was then largely forgotten until 1990, when archaeology student Romeo Hristov began a search for it. Two and a half years later, he located it in storage in the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City, misclassified as Colonial (catalog No. 20-1416). Hristov and Genovés (1999) review the circumstances of the discovery and the published literature relating to it. On its rediscovery, see Hristov (1994) and the article by Christine Blederman, "Romeo's Head," in The Dallas Observer for August 25, 1999. Hristov is currently (8/00) associated with the Dept. of Anthropology at the University of New Mexico. Click here for his homepage.

In an interview in one of the leading Italian newspapers, prompted by the Hristov and Genovés paper, Prof. Bernard Andreae, the current director of the German Archaeological Institute in Rome, gave his opinion of the head: "It is Roman without any doubt... The stylistic examination tells us, more precisely, that it is a Roman work of the second century after Christ. It presents, in the cut of the hair and the shape of the beard, traits typical of the Severian emperors, exactly the 'fashion' of the period. On this there is no doubt." (Andreae, 2000, my improvised trans.) The Severian dynasty included Septimius Severus (AD 193-211), Alexander Severus (AD 222-235), and a few intermediate emperors. This period seems mostly third century, rather than second century, to me, but Andreae's comments do confirm Heine-Geldern's original date of "around AD 200."

(...)

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/calix.htm

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I the book THEY ALL DISCOVERED AMERICA there is mention of 1 century ACE artifacts in Virginia being found there and of a 200 ACE bust found in Mexico. The book was published in the early 1960s.

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Roman and central european history is well known and well documented.

Millions of texts survive and not one has ever indicated they explored the Americas. Furthermore where are the Roman ruins and civilization in the states? A cross can be planted a city cannot.

Total hoax if ever there was one.

The only claims of pre-Coloumbus Europeans in the Americas I am open to are the Irish and Viking as both have accounts written in their historical documents. To date only a Viking settlement has been found in Newfoundland but we dont know if that was Vinland.

the settlement never went back to rome and they ended up here by mistake. there would be no documentation in roman history.

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Really?

Who cares enough about it for it to be a conceit?

The textbook writers who refuse to even entertain the idea anyone other the Columbus discovered America - these are AUSTRALIAN textbooks mind you. Text books that explore 30 thousand years of indigenous autralian culture, and use a wide variety of words for Cook's arrival ranging from colonisation to invasion only talk about America being discovered by Columbus.

Boggles the mind.

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Did Terra Calalus really exist?

I recently spoke to a friend who told me that ancient Roman artifacts had been found near Tucson, Arizona, dating back to around 900 A.D. near a place called Silverbell Road. Fascinated, I searched for this topic on the internet and found only a few small articles on the subject. Here is a magazine article I found on it (unforunately you have to scroll halfway through the scanned document to read it) but it IS interesting. There are photos included of a Roman sword with carvings on it supposedly mentioning how they came to Arizona via the Gulf of Mexico & hiking for over a 1,000 miles across Texas & New Mexico. I've been a resident of Arizona for a long time and I've never heard of this until like a week ago. I'm wondering why nothing much has been mentioned about it since 1980... Google doesn't have much info on it, either, save for a few grainy photos of the artifacts and a couple of brief mentions here and there. This would seem to be a pretty significant find, so I wonder where these artifacts (swords, coins, pots, pans, etc) are today?

Link to the article is here: Terra Calalus

An article mentioning Romans in Texas history is here

Has anyone ever heard of this?

-----------------------

I first heard of Calalus about 2 years ago and have been totally fascinated by it. There is a magazine called "Ancient American Archeology" that explores 'Pre-Columbian' America and is absolutely amazing! They have a great article about Calalus. Apparently, according to the artifacts found this was a group of Jewish Romans (not equating "Roman" with the Roman Empire, rather from having origins in Rome). They also had ties to the Free-Masons because of their signature square and compass insignia found on the hilt of a sword. They know about the Jewish connection because another engraving on the hilt was a thunder cloud with lightening bolts (a sign for the God of Israel) flanked by the roman numerals 1-10 (signifying the 10 commandments) along with the Jewish terminology and faith in God for their protection mentioned in the historical records uncovered in the form of crosses which could actually mean that they were not just Jewish but Messianic Jews from Rome. There were several lead crosses (4 rings a bell) that were actually 2 crosses riveted together with a waxy substance between the two. When they were separated and cleaned they revealed a very detailed account of the 230 year history of the city named Calalus with the names and sketched profiles of it's rulers/governors. The plates note many battles with the Toltec indians and were believed to finally meet their end at the hands of the Toltecs. The population of Calalus was at one time over 5,000 people. Blows my mind! The location the artifacts were found can't be tampered with. The trenches were made by people who mined lime for the making of white-wash paint. This lime is deposited during the rainy season when the lime is washed out of the mountains and into the valley. The lime deposits grow 2 inches every 100 years and is like concrete. The depth at which the artifacts were found confirms the date in the cross-tablets. As for how the people got from the Gulf of Mexico to the Tuscan area, archeologist & geologist agree that the Rio Grande once ran through the area but changed paths after tectonic shifts rerouted the river to it's current location. This allows for the theory that the fleet could have left the Mediterranean area traveling south along Africa and catching the trade winds westward that are currently known to bring the Gulf it's hurricane activity. From the Gulf, they could have easily sailed up river through what we know are Arizona. After chewing on it for a couple of years it all seems very plausible. I would love visit the University in Tuscan to see the artifacts first hand. Why did they come? Who knows... Why has this been so hushed? There is no possibility of finding great wealth so there is no one to fund the dig (basically in concrete mind you) and it would be too hard to effectively weave this story into the history of North America. Books would have to change their titles like "Columbus- The Man Who Discovered The New World" and others... I believe this topic should be explored further. How can I get some stimulus money to dig? :-)

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That's the same thing I wondered - who buried this story? It does sound like a hoax, but there's no mention - anywhere - of a hoax involving bogus Roman artifacts in Arizona. The article's so old that the person who wrote it might be in a retirement home or passed on by now, but this intrigues me just enough to make some phone calls and ask around about it. Next thing, I suppose, is to find out if the site out at Silverbell is still there...

thanks,

GB

What is humorous is that, after living in Tucson for 7 years, the first thing that comes to mind when you say Silverbell Road is Christopher Columbus Park! (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=tucson+silverbell+columbus&fb=1&gl=us&hq=Christopher+Columbus+Park&hnear=Christopher+Columbus+Park&cid=2421026023275696937)

Since I am here, I'll look into this and get back to you. Sounds facinating but something about it gives me some pause, because Tucson goes ape-sh!t about any of their history and will exploit it to the hilt in a valiant attempt to keep this city in the wasteland alive, but we'll see.

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I really doubt the Romans ever reached America.

For starters the Roman Empire had collapsed by the 5th AD at the hands of one Germanic tribe after another.

You still had the East Roman Empire but by the date stated in that article of 900AD they had become the Byzantines and most likely would not have refered to themselves as Romans as such.

Something else that is bugging me is that Roman ships were designed for travel in the Mediterranean and shallower coastal waters. It would take a miracle for a Roman vessel to cross 3000 miles of a notoriously rough Atlantic ocean.

Only really the Vikings had good enough vessels that could tackle the likes of the Atlantic, which is why they were so well travelled.

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Well... what I have found so far would say that it was a fairly long-standing hoax.

A Cold Trail By Kristina Stevens, Nov 4, 2009 http://www.thezmag.com/article-141-a-cold-trail.html

Don Burgess wrote an article for the Journal of the Southwest entitled, "Romans in Tucson? The Story of an Archaeological Hoax" which you can purchase from Amazon as an ebook here: http://www.amazon.com/Romans-Tucson-Archaeological-Arizona-Report/dp/B00371OTPG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271138193&sr=8-1

Or, you can read the rather lengthy chunk of it here: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-203330630.html

Hope this helps.

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no one wants to openly question the origin of Native Americans. It's not "P.C."

I'm open to it as long as you do not say we are Chinese or Jews. That's Chinese government and Mormon propaganda. I am a cultural researcher and archaeologist for my tribe, the Nanticoke-Lenape. I believe the "Solutrean Theory" for the Clovis People and the "Southeast Asia Theory" for the Proto-Algonquians.

Lapiche

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I'm open to it as long as you do not say we are Chinese or Jews. That's Chinese government and Mormon propaganda. I am a cultural researcher and archaeologist for my tribe, the Nanticoke-Lenape.

Lapiche

Sorry to anyone who might be Mormon, but they're completely wrong about Native Americans having anything to do with any lost tribes of the Jewish people, not to mention that they really went out of their way to adopt Native children and they did away with any references to Native American culture (replacing it with their own religious beliefs). My ex-husband (Shoshone/Arapaho) was a victim of this Mormon adoption system many years ago.

I believe the "Solutrean Theory" for the Clovis People and the "Southeast Asia Theory" for the Proto-Algonquians.

The "Southeast Asia Theory" is the one I've read most about and makes sense to me. I'll have to read more on the "Solutrean Theory." (I'm not an anthropologist, though, just a voracious reader).

Thank you,

GB

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