The Middle East

[J.B.]

Alright, as always there are a lot of different opinions on the wars we've gotten into. Great! This is what a free world is all about, differing opinions. So, tell us, if you were the leader of the U.S. what would have been your post 9/11 strategy for handling the Middle East?

I'll start: I would have double checked my intelligence first, to be sure I was hitting the right target. If somebody near me in power, like Cheney, had told me to lie to people in order to hit the wrong target, I'd have ignored him and followed my double checked intelligence. Afghanistan was the real enemy, though Iraq's leader needed to go anyway. I'd have stayed focused on Afghanistan, and sent special ops teams, with permission, to give Sadam some very bad days, and waited til Afghan were finished falling and rebuilding before attacking Hussein's regime.

The Israel question. . . I'd keep up negotiations and try my best to get them to back off the Palestinians. It probably would have failed, because both sides seem very racist against one another to begin with, or maybe that should be creedist? I honestly don't think the Israelis should be there in the first place, but this would be too big a topic if I had dropped us back to post WW2 and asked how to handle the entire modern era.

This thread is in the Current events/world news thread for obvious reasons that our nations are currently dealing with this topic, and that it's part of the world. If a mod wants to move it, I won't bat an eye.

[Poopie]

I still believe to this day that conventional army tactics were needed to take and maintain order in Iraq. However I would have relied on SOF assets to maintain Afghanistan.

Warfare is constantly evolving. It's really hard to say what would have worked, and what would have been bust. Adapt and overcome. tactics tried and true.

[MichaelW]

I wouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place. There was no delceration of war on any neighboring country by Iraq and no acts of war either. There were no WMD's found there and Al Qaeda only operated in Iraq after the invasion. All it did was heighten tensions between the Shi'ites and the Sunnis which nearly escalated into a full blown civil war. It is a wrong, costly and irrelevant war.

Afghanistan was never going to be easy so there is really nothing better that could have been done there.

Israel and their problems are never going to be solved but a harder stance against the Palestinians over the complete and utter lack of control over the organizations operating there. I would have given more freedom to the Israelis to take control over the situation.

[Watchers]

Alright, as always there are a lot of different opinions on the wars we've gotten into. Great! This is what a free world is all about, differing opinions. So, tell us, if you were the leader of the U.S. what would have been your post 9/11 strategy for handling the Middle East?

I'll start: I would have double checked my intelligence first, to be sure I was hitting the right target. If somebody near me in power, like Cheney, had told me to lie to people in order to hit the wrong target, I'd have ignored him and followed my double checked intelligence. Afghanistan was the real enemy, though Iraq's leader needed to go anyway. I'd have stayed focused on Afghanistan, and sent special ops teams, with permission, to give Sadam some very bad days, and waited til Afghan were finished falling and rebuilding before attacking Hussein's regime.

The Israel question. . . I'd keep up negotiations and try my best to get them to back off the Palestinians. It probably would have failed, because both sides seem very racist against one another to begin with, or maybe that should be creedist? I honestly don't think the Israelis should be there in the first place, but this would be too big a topic if I had dropped us back to post WW2 and asked how to handle the entire modern era.

This thread is in the Current events/world news thread for obvious reasons that our nations are currently dealing with this topic, and that it's part of the world. If a mod wants to move it, I won't bat an eye.

I've always found it hilarious when people seem to think that the Israelis took land from the Palestinians or is somewhere where they don't belong. You do realize that the "Israelis" were there thousands of years before Islam was even a religion. You do realize that the "Israelis" built up that entire region before any of the Palestinians lived there. Palestinians and Muslims in that region should be thanking Allah every day that the Israelis don't tear down their precious Dome of the Rock which stands on top of the old Jewish Temple Mount. The Israelis have graciously kept it up and allowed the Muslims to freely make pilgrimages to it for prayer. As for getting Israel off the Palestinians back? Is that a joke? It's more like get the Muslims and Arabs off Israel's back. They've been breathing down Israel's back for 50 years. Israel responds to attacks from extremists, and rightfully so.

My solution? Bring up a joint coalition with England, Germany, Japan, and Russia and invade the entire middle-east. Carve it up like Berlin after WW2. Divvy up monetary proceeds to subsidize the formation of legitimate non-corrupt, secular governments. Bring in task forces designed to ease relations, mix-up the cultures and assimilate them with the modern world. After giving them a solid, non-corrupt government, I'd say start some massive capital project funds to set up decent infrastructure and proper education for their populace so they can eventually be self sustaining. Oh, and while we're at it, I'd say give Israel back ALL of their rightfully owned lands and create a 100 mile-wide buffer state between Israel and the Muslim states controlled as an American territory.

[Funky Poacher]

Look for that handy self-distruct button.

[Moon Monkey]

I've always found it hilarious when people seem to think that the Israelis took land from the Palestinians or is somewhere where they don't belong. You do realize that the "Israelis" were there thousands of years before Islam was even a religion. You do realize that the "Israelis" built up that entire region before any of the Palestinians lived there. Palestinians and Muslims in that region should be thanking Allah every day that the Israelis don't tear down their precious Dome of the Rock which stands on top of the old Jewish Temple Mount. The Israelis have graciously kept it up and allowed the Muslims to freely make pilgrimages to it for prayer. As for getting Israel off the Palestinians back? Is that a joke? It's more like get the Muslims and Arabs off Israel's back. They've been breathing down Israel's back for 50 years. Israel responds to attacks from extremists, and rightfully so.

My solution? Bring up a joint coalition with England, Germany, Japan, and Russia and invade the entire middle-east. Carve it up like Berlin after WW2. Divvy up monetary proceeds to subsidize the formation of legitimate non-corrupt, secular governments. Bring in task forces designed to ease relations, mix-up the cultures and assimilate them with the modern world. After giving them a solid, non-corrupt government, I'd say start some massive capital project funds to set up decent infrastructure and proper education for their populace so they can eventually be self sustaining. Oh, and while we're at it, I'd say give Israel back ALL of their rightfully owned lands and create a 100 mile-wide buffer state between Israel and the Muslim states controlled as an American territory.

They already tried that.

[questionmark]

Simple, build a wall around it and let nothing in or out until they have found an agreement that does not include to exterminate one group. If the latter is the case just keep the wall forever.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

I'd say the problem is radical Islam. Get rid of that, and the Middle-East's issues will be solved.

[aquatus1]

I'd say the problem is radical Islam. Get rid of that, and the Middle-East's issues will be solved.

To a certain extent, I's agree.

My war startegy would have been simple. Bomb the country with hundreds of tiny, hand-held, portable TVs. Set up a satellite and beam, 24/7, properly translated western television programs. Give it a few years, and you will have the young adults demanding reform.

[Q24]

Alright, as always there are a lot of different opinions on the wars we've gotten into. Great! This is what a free world is all about, differing opinions. So, tell us, if you were the leader of the U.S. what would have been your post 9/11 strategy for handling the Middle East?

Let’s see, post 9/11 we are supposedly fighting terrorism. The first action I would have taken is a full investigation into the apparent failing of intelligence, law enforcement and military services to prevent the attack. Here are just some of the questions I would have had fully answered: -

• Why did the CIA allow known Al Qaeda affiliates into the United States?
  
• Why were the FBI prevented from investigating bin Laden related cases?
  
• Why did I, as President, not react to an intelligence briefing containing specific warnings?
  
• Why were all other warnings ignored despite authorities being aware of the danger?
  
• Why was intelligence information not fully shared between agencies?
  
• Why did the chain in military command breakdown on the day?
  

The aim of the above investigation would be to get our own house in order and hugely reduce the possibility of any further such attack. At the same time, I would launch an investigation to determine all those involved in the attack. A few of the questions I would have asked: -

• What hard evidence is there that Osama bin Laden directed the attack?
  
• Why was it reported that the lead hijacker was funded by Pakistani intelligence?
  
• Why were Israeli intelligence on the scene during the attack and what did they know?
  
• Why was it reported that the CIA met with Osama bin Laden prior 9/11?
  
• What links were maintained between the CIA and Osama bin Laden after the Soviet/Afghan war?
  
• How many CIA agents were operating within Al Qaeda and in what capacity?
  

After that, I would put all those I found to be linked to the attack on trial (in their absence if necessary) to determine their innocence or guilt. Of course, there has never actually been a legal case made or even attempted against those responsible. Looking back on the failure to implement such a legal case, questions I would now ask: -

• Why was the Taliban offer to hand over Osama bin Laden for trial refused?
  
• Why have the FBI stated they have no evidence connecting Osama bin Laden to 9/11?
  
• Why did the FBI Director state there is no legal proof as to the identities of the hijackers?
  
• Why did Osama bin Laden twice deny responsibility for the attack?
  

With all of the above complete we would now have a list of those proven responsible for 9/11. Let’s assume that the list comprised solely of Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda operatives. Those individuals are/were based and/or planned operations from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Germany, Turkey, Chechnya and even the United States. We are dealing with a group of scattered and loosely connected terrorists… not a country, not a fixed region and not any form of government. What I would not have done is use 9/11 as an excuse to launch a full scale war against the entire regime in Afghanistan – this can only increase hatred of the West and breed terrorism.

Assuming that the aim really was to prevent terrorism and bring those responsible for 9/11 to justice (and those responsible had been proven to be Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda), the U.S. could have been a lot smarter: -

• As mentioned, the Taliban had offered to hand over Osama bin Laden for trial. I would have provided the Taliban with a short deadline to implement this and warn that actions would be taken to bring him to justice if this was not met. The issue could have been over right there.
  
• Had the above not proven successful, I would have sent in a limited force to capture Osama bin Laden dead or alive. If a war had not been launched forcing bin Laden to flee and lay low, then he would not have been hard to find with a sustained intelligence effort. Prior to 9/11 he was giving interviews to Robert Fisk and Time Magazine! Not to mention that the CIA must have been all over Al Qaeda – pretty much anyone who turned up claiming to be a Jihadist could enter Al Qaeda training camps.
  
• Where terrorist training cells are discovered in any country and are not supported by the country’s ruling regime then military strikes against that specific target should be launched.
  

The above meets the aim of fighting terrorism whilst preventing full scale war.

The thing is, the real aim of these wars is not to prevent terrorism or to make us safer at all. The aims were stated by those who came to power in the Bush Administration in 2001 – to maintain American global pre-eminence through military intervention in the Middle East. Of course the leaders needed a pretext for their actions; a way to sell the conflict to the public and this turned out to be 9/11.

The ‘Middle East’ never needed ‘handling’ and we should not be there in any great force.

[TSS]

To a certain extent, I's agree.

My war startegy would have been simple. Bomb the country with hundreds of tiny, hand-held, portable TVs. Set up a satellite and beam, 24/7, properly translated western television programs. Give it a few years, and you will have the young adults demanding reform.

Whilst I assume you said this tongue-in-cheek, there is a lot more sense in this post then many others. There would still come a tipping point where assistance would be required, but it could be a lot more behind the scenes help, out of the media eye.

[ExpandMyMind]

I'd say the problem is radical Islam. Get rid of that, and the Middle-East's issues will be solved.

this is why you're opinion when it comes to any ME affairs should never ever be taken into account kid. to think that the extremely complex situation that is the middle east, with probably hundreds of different, separate problems, has been explained by you down to one (tiny) group of people. well, to me, that says it all.

i can't believe you still have the cheek to use the term 'useful idiots'. wow.

[the-Unexpected-Soul]

when are you gonna realize that middle east belong to the middle easterns only??

this is our middle east , it's our land , it is whats ours !! ,

who are you **EDIT** (please don't delete the insult it's important to convey my point) to came and say this belong to that and this belong to this , and we should build a wall here and a wall there , man i **EDIT**

**No.**

Israelis are not middle easterners , they are emigrants from , Europe , Russia , America , they don't have roots in our land

it doesn't matter if Jews lived here 5000 years ago , that doesn't give a right to some one who is a non Mideastern but embraced Judaism to come and steel my land , OK

if some one who is a Mideastern and also a Jew then of course he is most welcomed here

but the Israelis are not Mideastern , and they are anti Mideast , they want to build their Hebrew kingdom on the ruins of our

and it gos from Egypt to Syria , so it's not only Palestine they want to steel

plus if the Jews around the world want to visit their holy land then they are welcomed to come to Jerusalem , but what the rest of Palestine and Syria and Egypt have to do with them ? , and why they want to build an army and elect a president ? , if they so eager to live here why don't they blind with the Mideasterns the same way Mideastern Christians do ??

Edited April 7, 2010 by aquatus1
Flamebaiting & profanity

[TSS]

when are you gonna realize that middle east belong to the middle easterns only??

Could you imagine what would happen if westerners said the western world belonged to westerners only - everybody else can get out.

That wouldn't go down to well would it!

[+HerNibs]

Could you imagine what would happen if westerners said the western world belonged to westerners only - everybody else can get out.

That wouldn't go down to well would it!

Our remaining Native Americans might like that just fine!

Is there an "Israel/Palestine for Dummies" synopsis anywhere? I get the basics but would like to find an UNBIASED history.

Nibs

[aquatus1]

Whilst I assume you said this tongue-in-cheek, there is a lot more sense in this post then many others. There would still come a tipping point where assistance would be required, but it could be a lot more behind the scenes help, out of the media eye.

Actually, I'm somewhat serious. I do believe in victory through westernization. I do think that subverting a culture beats subduing it.

[ExpandMyMind]

Could you imagine what would happen if westerners said the western world belonged to westerners only - everybody else can get out.

That wouldn't go down to well would it!

i think he refers to occupying forces, not individuals.

[Corp]

Our remaining Native Americans might like that just fine!

Is there an "Israel/Palestine for Dummies" synopsis anywhere? I get the basics but would like to find an UNBIASED history.

Nibs

I think you're going to need to wait a few hundred years to get that history. It's become such a politically charged issue I don't think it's really possible to get a completely unbiased opinion.

As for me I'd like to see the creation of a Palestine state with clear borders. With this in place the various terrorist groups shouldn't have a leg to stand on. All the Palestinians living in other countries can either move to the new Palestine or be given full citizenship in the country they've been camping out in. Isreal stops with the stupid settlements and the Palestinians stop throwing rockets around. Massive peacekeeping force in place. If this doesn't seem to be working take all the leaders of the region, lock them in a room, and tell them they can't come out until an agreement is worked out. And if that doesn't work then it seems to me that no one is interested in peace so we should just pull out completely and let them kill each other. We'll deal with whoever's left standing.

[.AKUMA.]

I've always found it hilarious when people seem to think that the Israelis took land from the Palestinians or is somewhere where they don't belong. You do realize that the "Israelis" were there thousands of years before Islam was even a religion. You do realize that the "Israelis" built up that entire region before any of the Palestinians lived there. Palestinians and Muslims in that region should be thanking Allah every day that the Israelis don't tear down their precious Dome of the Rock which stands on top of the old Jewish Temple Mount. The Israelis have graciously kept it up and allowed the Muslims to freely make pilgrimages to it for prayer. As for getting Israel off the Palestinians back? Is that a joke? It's more like get the Muslims and Arabs off Israel's back. They've been breathing down Israel's back for 50 years. Israel responds to attacks from extremists, and rightfully so.

making stuff up again i see? everything u said there is your own opinion, nothing more.

Muslims and Jews lived in that region in peace for many years evan during the crusades, it was only until the European Jews came along and started causing problems.

My solution? Bring up a joint coalition with England, Germany, Japan, and Russia and invade the entire middle-east. Carve it up like Berlin after WW2. Divvy up monetary proceeds to subsidize the formation of legitimate non-corrupt, secular governments. Bring in task forces designed to ease relations, mix-up the cultures and assimilate them with the modern world. After giving them a solid, non-corrupt government, I'd say start some massive capital project funds to set up decent infrastructure and proper education for their populace so they can eventually be self sustaining. Oh, and while we're at it, I'd say give Israel back ALL of their rightfully owned lands and create a 100 mile-wide buffer state between Israel and the Muslim states controlled as an American territory.

Israel doest have any rightfully owned land, you are talking about their stolen land right?.

Lol your whole idea sounds makes u sound like a typical American, " their culture is differant from ours i hate them etc etc lets....lets invade" -_-

as far as i can tell America has done as much bad to the world than the middle east.

[J.B.]

I've always found it hilarious when people seem to think that the Israelis took land from the Palestinians or is somewhere where they don't belong. You do realize that the "Israelis" were there thousands of years before Islam was even a religion. You do realize that the "Israelis" built up that entire region before any of the Palestinians lived there. Palestinians and Muslims in that region should be thanking Allah every day that the Israelis don't tear down their precious Dome of the Rock which stands on top of the old Jewish Temple Mount. The Israelis have graciously kept it up and allowed the Muslims to freely make pilgrimages to it for prayer. As for getting Israel off the Palestinians back? Is that a joke? It's more like get the Muslims and Arabs off Israel's back. They've been breathing down Israel's back for 50 years. Israel responds to attacks from extremists, and rightfully so.

My solution? Bring up a joint coalition with England, Germany, Japan, and Russia and invade the entire middle-east. Carve it up like Berlin after WW2. Divvy up monetary proceeds to subsidize the formation of legitimate non-corrupt, secular governments. Bring in task forces designed to ease relations, mix-up the cultures and assimilate them with the modern world. After giving them a solid, non-corrupt government, I'd say start some massive capital project funds to set up decent infrastructure and proper education for their populace so they can eventually be self sustaining. Oh, and while we're at it, I'd say give Israel back ALL of their rightfully owned lands and create a 100 mile-wide buffer state between Israel and the Muslim states controlled as an American territory.

No, our Middle Eastern friend is right about who most of the Israelis are. They ain't native, they're Europeans. Not all of them, but the coordinated State of Israel is mostly from Europe. The major force behind the creation of the State had been Xionists, especially the Rothschild family. That much is recorded history. Religion should not be tied to land, period. History. . . that's what tourism is for, to reconnect with it.

Unfortunately, ever since the World Wars, and the start of the gasoline age, the Middle East has been contested ground. We're not leaving, period. If Obama's drilling works out, we'll be less focused there for a while, but soon as we run out of home reserves, we're coming straight back. If the Mideasterners really want their homeland back, they'd be well advised to find an alternative fuel source for us to use, a good one that beats out gas. Otherwise, the Western World won't allow your nations to control their energy flow.

[eqgumby]

To a certain extent, I's agree.

My war startegy would have been simple. Bomb the country with hundreds of tiny, hand-held, portable TVs. Set up a satellite and beam, 24/7, properly translated western television programs. Give it a few years, and you will have the young adults demanding reform.

Funny, but not far from the truth.

Change the culture, NOT the religion.

Unfortunately, then we'd have Arabs into crappy American culture, Brittany Spears, reality TV, messianic sports figures, and talentless Paris Hiltons...I'd almost rather have terrorists...

[J.B.]

Funny, but not far from the truth.

Change the culture, NOT the religion.

Unfortunately, then we'd have Arabs into crappy American culture, Brittany Spears, reality TV, messianic sports figures, and talentless Paris Hiltons...I'd almost rather have terrorists...

We already have that. Terrorists who come here, except for the hardcore "I wanna die for Allah because I truly want to give my life up for him" types, spend at least some time in strip clubs and looking for girls like that. It's something they don't get at home.

[Xibalba]

I would pull out of there immediately and sink all of the money that goes into murdering innocent people into mass-producing free, clean energy (tech which already well and truly exists, BTW). There, now I won't have to keep stealing their oil.

[J.B.]

I would pull out of there immediately and sink all of the money that goes into murdering innocent people into mass-producing free, clean energy (tech which already well and truly exists, BTW). There, now I won't have to keep stealing their oil.

What sort of tech are we talking about here? If you're referring to solar cells and wind mills, those aren't too efficient at gathering the natural energy they're trying for yet, nor are the conditions that run them truly stable. I'll admit, we could do some serious kinetic energy gathering with piezoelectric cells (you walk on them and the energy of your very footsteps turns electric) but same issue. You have to walk on them, and they need to be vastly improved to get enough energy from your footsteps. Though once we work that out, your little children running around can become money makers. Just childproof everything and say, "Hey kids, remember how we said not to run in the house? Well. . . we lied!"

Anyway, back on topic: Take away the gas issue, and properly educate us Westerners on Mideast history. Add to that maybe a bit more internal tamping down on violent warlords who make Americans' skin crawl, and we'll probably leave quick. For now, many of us have the image of the Mideast as a sandbox crawling with bullying warlords bent on terrorizing everything in sight.

[Watchers]

making stuff up again i see? everything u said there is your own opinion, nothing more.

Muslims and Jews lived in that region in peace for many years evan during the crusades, it was only until the European Jews came along and started causing problems.

Israel doest have any rightfully owned land, you are talking about their stolen land right?.

Lol your whole idea sounds makes u sound like a typical American, " their culture is differant from ours i hate them etc etc lets....lets invade" -_-

as far as i can tell America has done as much bad to the world than the middle east.

Making stuff up? Nothing I said was made up. It's a fact. Jews were there thousands of years before Islam was even a religion. Islam SPROUTED from Judaism. The cities that the Jews built up in Israel BELONG to them, who else do you think rightfully owns a city?

As for many of them being European...sure there's plenty that have migrated there. But if you truly understand world history and how things went, the Jews were scattered, thus creating the "lost 12 tribes". They assimilated into all other cultures and corners of the world. When the Israeli state was rightfully put back in place, they all came back to their land.

Saying that Israelis are merely "European", is like saying if all of the French citizens were uprooted from France by the U.S. and scattered across the world, and then 200 years later--they (the French citizens), had a chance to retake their country of France and move back in. Hmm...those Frenchies are technically coming from...America, or Japan, or wherever they got moved to....but does that change the fact that the land was rightfully theirs to begin with? No.