Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
eqgumby

Demonic or Schizophrenic

89 posts in this topic

I did not claim it as truth I merely said perhaps. Who is to say that demons don't work by altering the brain chemistry and medicine in turn would fix it. None of us know.

Why rely on explanations that involve beings whose existence has not been proven when we can much more easily make sense out of the theories that have been tried and tested and found effective? It all comes down to whether you believe in Occam's Razor, which says that the simplest explanation is usually the best. Do we really need to use external intelligences to explain our own perceptions and behaviors, no matter how atypical they might be? Why draw the line at mental illness? Why not believe that demons are controlling our every thought and action? People only say things like that because they want to believe, not because the idea's actually supported by any reliable evidence whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Which is why I said in my earlier post that perhaps demons inhabiting people were an early attempt to explain schizophrenia. Occam's Razor is not absolute. Sure it is the easiest and the more educated guess than demons, but my point is that why argue over whether it's demonic possession of schizophrenia for anything is possible. I am indifferent about both explanations for it is not important to me. I an merely stating that just because it may be a simpler explanation it does not mean it is right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my vote for best post of the thread. kudos rosewin :tu:

:clap: Rosewin for the...well, the WIN.

omg thank you guys

Sinewave brings up a very good point. Many mentally ill have been coping for most of their lives; they often have been institutionalized, homeless or both. These experiences can cause some symptoms such as paranoia to become much worse. I believe that some patients symptoms of paranoia increase as they cycle through the system (streets, hospital, institution, back to the streets). As this cycle goes on they become worse and worse. I can think of one frequent flyer who’s gone through this cycle at least 5 times in the two years I‘ve been working in this area.

Jav

I do not think all who suffer from schizophrenia are homless or vice verse. I am sure most people who have had symptoms of demonic possession were not all homeless either.

Unfortunately, that has never happened and it remains solely among the tricks of the parlor illusionist.

Somehow it seems unlikely that all those reported cases of levitation, which is hard to mistake as say, a ufo would be, that there would always be a skilled parlor illusionist in the audience.

It is true, Rosewin, that considerate medical practice takes into account the beliefs of the subject.

I would like to point out, however, that belief by the subject that a demonic possession is taking place, is not equivalent to an actual demonic possession taking place.

That is, the treatment incorporates the belief of the patient, but treats the actual affliction - not the believed one.

Indeed, a physician or therapist can only treat what they recognize through their training. My point was more along the line of one does not have to believe to understand and also that just because one does not believe does not mean they have to be insensitive or callous to those who do believe.

Demons that disappear when someone starts taking medicine that alters their brain chemistry? I don't think so.

Since schizophrenia is not thought of as curable but just manageable then what about those who have had symptoms but underwent an exorcism an then never had any symptoms again? I don't think so either...

...also many things besides meds can alter brain chemistry in various ways, not specifically pertaining to schizophrenia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Which is why I said in my earlier post that perhaps demons inhabiting people were an early attempt to explain schizophrenia. Occam's Razor is not absolute. Sure it is the easiest and the more educated guess than demons, but my point is that why argue over whether it's demonic possession of schizophrenia for anything is possible. I am indifferent about both explanations for it is not important to me. I an merely stating that just because it may be a simpler explanation it does not mean it is right.

If you want to believe anything is possible, by all means go ahead. In treating people with serious problems, however, it could potentially be very harmful to make false assumptions. A doctor can lose a patient if the wrong diagnosis is given or not found in time. Have you heard the stories about people dying due to the violent actions taken during exorcisms? Beliefs based in nothing more than religious faith can be very harmful when used to make important decisions. I think history has demonstrated that well enough.

Since schizophrenia is not thought of as curable but just manageable then what about those who have had symptoms but underwent an exorcism an then never had any symptoms again? I don't think so either...

Are there documented cases of people showing all the signs of a mental illness being cured by exorcism? Did they do follow-ups years later to see that these people were still okay? I'd be interested to know if there are such studies. Catholic priests are supposed to rule out psychological possibilities before considering the supernatural. So people "who have had symptoms" shouldn't be undergoing exorcisms in the first place.

Like I said before, I believe that exorcism can be effective as a sort of therapy. People who are strongly religious may work themselves into a state where they believe themselves to be possessed; just because exorcism seems to have a short term effect doesn't mean there were ever any real demons involved. If someone is suffering from longstanding, serious symptoms of mental illness, exorcism is not going to magically make things disappear. Problems that are that deep are not going to be solved in a few hours.

...also many things besides meds can alter brain chemistry in various ways, not specifically pertaining to schizophrenia. ...

But when medicines that have been proven to alter brain chemistry are able to temporarily rid a person of their hallucinations and delusions, there is no need to look for further explanations. When a person goes off the medicine they come back. A very obvious cause and effect is established. The fact that other things can alter brain chemistry is beside the point.

Edited by Cybele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somehow it seems unlikely that all those reported cases of levitation, which is hard to mistake as say, a ufo would be, that there would always be a skilled parlor illusionist in the audience.

They may not be the result of pranks, but that doesn't prove that a demon, or any intelligent being whatsoever, is necessarily involved. Why not just leave it at "unexplained"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

omg thank you guys

I do not think all who suffer from schizophrenia are homless or vice verse. I am sure most people who have had symptoms of demonic possession were not all homeless either.

Somehow it seems unlikely that all those reported cases of levitation, which is hard to mistake as say, a ufo would be, that there would always be a skilled parlor illusionist in the audience.

Indeed, a physician or therapist can only treat what they recognize through their training. My point was more along the line of one does not have to believe to understand and also that just because one does not believe does not mean they have to be insensitive or callous to those who do believe.

Since schizophrenia is not thought of as curable but just manageable then what about those who have had symptoms but underwent an exorcism an then never had any symptoms again? I don't think so either...

...also many things besides meds can alter brain chemistry in various ways, not specifically pertaining to schizophrenia.

I said many who are mentally ill are homeless or institutionalized. Schizophrenia is one of many mental illnesses. While you are correct that not all homeless are mentally ill a large percentage are. Your comment is correct but if you reread my post I did not say that all homeless people have schizophrenia.

Addition:

Honestly I've seen some people OD that could be described as having the same or similar symptoms/behaviour as described for possession. Not all of them at once but enough. Just throwing it out there.

Jav

Edited by Javril

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I've seen some people OD that could be described as having the same or similar symptoms/behaviour as described for possession. Not all of them at once but enough. Just throwing it out there.

I'd be interested to hear which possession like symtpoms you've seen and what drugs they were associated with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to believe anything is possible, by all means go ahead. In treating people with serious problems, however, it could potentially be very harmful to make false assumptions. A doctor can lose a patient if the wrong diagnosis is given or not found in time. Have you heard the stories about people dying due to the violent actions taken during exorcisms? Beliefs based in nothing more than religious faith can be very harmful when used to make important decisions. I think history has demonstrated that well enough.

Are there documented cases of people showing all the signs of a mental illness being cured by exorcism? Did they do follow-ups years later to see that these people were still okay? I'd be interested to know if there are such studies. Catholic priests are supposed to rule out psychological possibilities before considering the supernatural. So people "who have had symptoms" shouldn't be undergoing exorcisms in the first place.

Like I said before, I believe that exorcism can be effective as a sort of therapy. People who are strongly religious may work themselves into a state where they believe themselves to be possessed; just because exorcism seems to have a short term effect doesn't mean there were ever any real demons involved. If someone is suffering from longstanding, serious symptoms of mental illness, exorcism is not going to magically make things disappear. Problems that are that deep are not going to be solved in a few hours.

But when medicines that have been proven to alter brain chemistry are able to temporarily rid a person of their hallucinations and delusions, there is no need to look for further explanations. When a person goes off the medicine they come back. A very obvious cause and effect is established. The fact that other things can alter brain chemistry is beside the point.

Scientific arrogance? Why don't you first rule out the existence of anything after death that can affect the living? If you could do that then the myopic view that relies only on science, behavior, and psychology would be valid. You can't so it's not. The solution to that problem is to keep science etc. in perspective and not make more of it than it can be. Same with religions that can also be dangerous. There has to be a holistic approach or it's all just circular isolated danger. Religion rules out medical problems, but you (assuming you are of the scientific materialistic persuasion) cannot do the same for all else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Why don't you first rule out the existence of anything after death that can affect the living?

I'm not sure why the Catholic Church would insist that mental illness be ruled out before performing exorcism. I'd imagine, though, that it is because they know that people might mistake signs of mental illness for possession and that they realize that physical causes are far more likely than spiritual ones. If they exorcise someone without first looking for medical explanations, there would be a lot of backlash from the families who realize that their loved ones weren't "cured" by the exorcism.

If you could do that then the myopic view that relies only on science, behavior, and psychology would be valid. You can't so it's not.

You can't prove that something doesn't exist, so you can't rule out the possibility of something after death affecting the living. But neither is there any solid evidence for the existence of life after death or demons, so there is no good reason to believe in either. By your logic, you could come up with something even more absurd, like a vampire bunny, and say that even though there is no reliable evidence for its existence, you can't rule out the possibility that it exists and therefore it is as likely a explanation for animal mutilations as predators and scavengers. Oh, and by the way, because of the new vampire bunny hypothesis, scavengers and predators alone are no longer valid explanations. Carefully controlled experiments and observations have gone into the development of scientific theories. Extrapolations from these theories have proven useful and valid as well. It is beyond foolish to say that scientific theories, by themselves, are not valid ways to explain certain phenomena because there are a million alternate, fantasy based, unproven ideas that people use to explain them as well.

The solution to that problem is to keep science etc. in perspective and not make more of it than it can be. Same with religions that can also be dangerous. There has to be a holistic approach or it's all just circular isolated danger. Religion rules out medical problems, but you (assuming you are of the scientific materialistic persuasion) cannot do the same for all else.

Science is merely a tool, a very logical method that has been used to do far more for the progress of mankind than religion ever could; it does not need to be "kept in perspective". By that, I assume you mean cynical and skeptical viewpoints. People are entitled to their own opinions and are not required to be "holistic" in their views. I am very interested in the paranormal and would love it if all these things were real. I just don't think there's good evidence for any of it. It does not make sense to rule out supernatural or "religious" problems first because things that even remotely hint at such explanations are so rare. You want to rule out the most likely and mundane causes first if you want to get to the truth. If you just want to believe...well that's another matter entirely.

Edited by Cybele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I'd be interested to hear which possession like symtpoms you've seen and what drugs they were associated with.

Deffinantly seen these seen these sorts of things in CNS stimulants like PCP.

Demonic

Thinking thoughts which are “not like you” or which “seem to come from somewhere else” or which “come out of the blue”.

Sudden depression. Sometimes the depression is severe, sometimes it is very subtle.

Feeling like suicide, like life is not worth living or wondering why you are here.

Having severe arguments with your spouse or friends.

Feeling like someone or something else is controlling you. You may feel controlled all the time or only some of the time.Feeling like someone or something is pressuring you to do certain acts.

Hearing one or multiple voices in your head that are negative, persuasive, or commanding you to do something. For example, hearing a voice persuade you that a certain friend should be avoided, or asking you to let them “in” to your life in some way.

Deep personality changes. For example, someone stays at home all the time when they used to be very gregarious.

Creepy feelings.

An area of your house or your neighbourhood which feels negative or oppressive.

Any kind of phenomena. For example, scratching sounds, things falling off walls or shelves, religious or spiritual items being moved or changed.

Feeling attacked when others do not see or experience anything. Sometimes this feeling of being attacked may come with physical pain that is medically inexplicable. Usually it will come with psychological pain of some sort – terror or anguish for example.An aversion to prayer or an inability to pray.

Feelings of hopelessness.

Being unable to stand any contact with religious or spiritual items. For example, sudden strong aversion to going into a church or temple, aversion to being touched by a crucifix, and so on.

Many things are possible while on these drugs they can believe just about everything. Had a guy once who literally thought he was superman. With the drugs running through him he practically was, tried to lift the back of a cop car up. Ended up doing severe damage to his tendons and ligaments cause they couldn't handle it.

Edited by Javril

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't prove that something doesn't exist, so you can't rule out the possibility of something after death affecting the living.

You can if you know the entire situation: in this box no bears exist. Science can never know the entire situation with regard to non material entities.

But neither is there any solid evidence for the existence of life after death or demons, so there is no good reason to believe in either.

They are not "solid" so why would there be?

By your logic, you could come up with something even more absurd, like a vampire bunny, and say that even though there is no reliable evidence for its existence, you can't rule out the possibility that it exists and therefore it is as likely a explanation for animal mutilations as predators and scavengers.

Only if I had been directly attacked by a "vampire bunny".

Oh, and by the way, because of the new vampire bunny hypothesis, scavengers and predators alone are no longer valid explanations.

They would still be valid unless there was evidence of bunny marks on the carcus.

Carefully controlled experiments and observations have gone into the development of scientific theories. Extrapolations from these theories have proven useful and valid as well. It is beyond foolish to say that scientific theories, by themselves, are not valid ways to explain certain phenomena because there are a million alternate, fantasy based, unproven ideas that people use to explain them as well.

Science can only deal in the realm of science.

Science is merely a tool, a very logical method that has been used to do far more for the progress of mankind than religion ever could; it does not need to be "kept in perspective".

You just did by describing it as a tool.

By that, I assume you mean cynical and skeptical viewpoints. People are entitled to their own opinions and are not required to be "holistic" in their views.

It's not required; it is lacking.

I am very interested in the paranormal and would love it if all these things were real. I just don't think there's good evidence for any of it. It does not make sense to rule out supernatural or "religious" problems first because things that even remotely hint at such explanations are so rare.

Rare, not non-existant.

You want to rule out the most likely and mundane causes first if you want to get to the truth. If you just want to believe...well that's another matter entirely.

Yes, I'm all for debunking. Paranormal begins where debunking fails.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes i believe it is a mental illness paraniod scitso short for fruit cake.Or nuts whole nut.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest problem I have with demonic possession claims is that of absolute proof. The thing is, you have to be able to prove beyond a doubt that there is the presence of supernatural entities. And how do you do that scientifically?

No, until hard evidence to confirm the pesence of supernatural entities, I will take the medical approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The biggest problem I have with demonic possession claims is that of absolute proof. The thing is, you have to be able to prove beyond a doubt that there is the presence of supernatural entities. And how do you do that scientifically?

You can't. 99% of the time, people who claim to have experienced demonic activity only do so because of their beliefs. For the most part, they display no skepticism and to them, anything that is highly unusual and unexplained must be supernatural as well. And markprice, paranormal means outside of the range of normal experiences. It does not have to imply supernatural causes.

Edited by Cybele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.