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chessnovicer

The Watchers: The Rise of Surveillance State

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Posted (edited)

All I have to say is : YOU WERE WARNED!

For his new book, The Watchers: The Rise of Americas Surveillance State, National Journal correspondent Shane Harris spoke to the key architects of the US governments surveillance programs over the past quarter century and tells the story of how spying on US citizens has become both easier and legal and is now the cornerstone of the Obama administrations national security strategy.

Edited by chessnovicer

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Okay. And? Is this just to promote some guys book, or was there more to be said? I think everyone knows about the whole mess with the patriot act, echelon and people reporting their neighbours and suchlike for suspicious behaviour.

It's rather sad.

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Okay. And? Is this just to promote some guys book, or was there more to be said? I think everyone knows about the whole mess with the patriot act, echelon and people reporting their neighbours and suchlike for suspicious behaviour.

It's rather sad.

I am glad you know. Unfortunately, many continue to bury their heads and hope its not true.

It's like a child that covers eyes and say , "you can't see me." The more people aware, the better our chances are.

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I am glad you know. Unfortunately, many continue to bury their heads and hope its not true.

It's like a child that covers eyes and say , "you can't see me." The more people aware, the better our chances are.

Well how do you propose we utilize "our chances"? I mean, nothing gets done just because we know these things are going on, so what do we do with the knowledge? Or is there no next step to this?

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Well how do you propose we utilize "our chances"? I mean, nothing gets done just because we know these things are going on, so what do we do with the knowledge? Or is there no next step to this?

Once enough people are aware, there must be public outcry and demand for disclosure. A few voices in the wilderness can easily be ignored or silenced.

They will have two options 1) show themselves and answer questions (they do not want to do this) or 2) retreat and hide. Their greatest strength is secrecy. Through secrecy they are able to manipulate media (public perception) and manage public reaction/behavior (through surveillance and other methods) by creating circumstance for apathy and malaise and despair.

The public must avoid two reaction to their knowledge of the conspirators 1) an instinct to lash out and become violent (this provides the pretext for government suppression/ martial law) and 2) the acceptance of a benign dictatorship because of the promise of a better, safer future. To paraphrase, an old saying, those who would give up their liberties for temporary security, will soon find they have neither.

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The problem as I see it, isn't that too few are informed. It is that too few care about the issue. I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for the people I know, and most of them are indifferent on the subject, some are even FOR more surveillance, they seem to think that it's a good thing to trade off freedom for security. Except of course that if you do that, you wake up to find you've got neither.

The other type of people I know personally, take their entire world view from tabloid newspapers and biased news channels, and it just so happens that somehow these newspapers think it's more important to know about Tiger Woods sex life, than economics, politics, etc. They just don't care. And as long as these people seem to be a majority, that effectively means two things:

1 - The people who speak up about this kind of thing, demand disclosure, demands less surveillance, they become a fringe element which is automatically labeled as weirdos - because you don't want the big bad terrorists to come and blow up your house, do you? Plus who cares about this stuff, when the important news like Paris Hiltons pet dog jumped in front of a moving car, to end its misery, can be focused on instead?

2 - These people - which are the majority of the public (in my admittedly limited experience) have a vote.

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"Know thy enemy"

The problem is not so much in the surveilance as i see but what is done with it. Personally if I owned a business i would want the discretion to have CCTV around the property. Having them in other public areas is ok until it becomes too intrusive. The real issue I feel is in the law. It is not just there to protect the public and the state but also the individual, from miscarriages of justice. As technology advances the common law should reflect it but as for changing statute as a reaction to terrorism is a very bad idea. If Interpol are given powers to arrest wherever they like the Illuminati, nwo whatever will have achieved their aim. Also, there is talk of changing law to meet EU law shifting the burden of proof onto the defendant. Guilty until proven innocence. This is what would really screw us.

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The problem as I see it, isn't that too few are informed. It is that too few care about the issue. I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for the people I know, and most of them are indifferent on the subject, some are even FOR more surveillance, they seem to think that it's a good thing to trade off freedom for security. Except of course that if you do that, you wake up to find you've got neither.

The other type of people I know personally, take their entire world view from tabloid newspapers and biased news channels, and it just so happens that somehow these newspapers think it's more important to know about Tiger Woods sex life, than economics, politics, etc. They just don't care. And as long as these people seem to be a majority, that effectively means two things:

1 - The people who speak up about this kind of thing, demand disclosure, demands less surveillance, they become a fringe element which is automatically labeled as weirdos - because you don't want the big bad terrorists to come and blow up your house, do you? Plus who cares about this stuff, when the important news like Paris Hiltons pet dog jumped in front of a moving car, to end its misery, can be focused on instead?

2 - These people - which are the majority of the public (in my admittedly limited experience) have a vote.

Brilliant post! You hit the nail on the head in regards to the mindset of the public. The plans of the conspirators do not scare me as much as the attitude of the people you described so eloquently above.

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The problem as I see it, isn't that too few are informed. It is that too few care about the issue. I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for the people I know, and most of them are indifferent on the subject, some are even FOR more surveillance, they seem to think that it's a good thing to trade off freedom for security. Except of course that if you do that, you wake up to find you've got neither.

The other type of people I know personally, take their entire world view from tabloid newspapers and biased news channels, and it just so happens that somehow these newspapers think it's more important to know about Tiger Woods sex life, than economics, politics, etc. They just don't care. And as long as these people seem to be a majority, that effectively means two things:

1 - The people who speak up about this kind of thing, demand disclosure, demands less surveillance, they become a fringe element which is automatically labeled as weirdos - because you don't want the big bad terrorists to come and blow up your house, do you? Plus who cares about this stuff, when the important news like Paris Hiltons pet dog jumped in front of a moving car, to end its misery, can be focused on instead?

2 - These people - which are the majority of the public (in my admittedly limited experience) have a vote.

Hey, Tiger Woods' sex life is important. Man gets more ***** than a box full of kittens!

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"Know thy enemy"

The problem is not so much in the surveilance as i see but what is done with it. Personally if I owned a business i would want the discretion to have CCTV around the property. Having them in other public areas is ok until it becomes too intrusive. The real issue I feel is in the law. It is not just there to protect the public and the state but also the individual, from miscarriages of justice. As technology advances the common law should reflect it but as for changing statute as a reaction to terrorism is a very bad idea. If Interpol are given powers to arrest wherever they like the Illuminati, nwo whatever will have achieved their aim. Also, there is talk of changing law to meet EU law shifting the burden of proof onto the defendant. Guilty until proven innocence. This is what would really screw us.

It's already too intrusive. Every phone call, email, text message, chat conversation... It's being analyzed and anything even remotely suspicious is stored for future reference.

Cameras everywhere, metal detectors to get into some schools nowadays, thumbprint databases, unwarranted wiretaps, neighbourhood watch, RFID chipped passports and cars (and soon people, judging by progress. Certain companies do offer RFID chips for humans, to track them. Like babies, or homeless people, or criminals). Homeland Security at the very least has the right to detain you for ever, without a good reason other than "We decided you might be a terrorist". Hell, it even allows torture. Where does it stop? These people are now worse than the spanish inquisition, because the inquisition did not have tracking devices. I read an article that allows Homeland Security to - in the name of combating terrorism - sexually abuse children in front of their parents, as an interrogation technique.

Where do you draw the line between a terrorist and a freedom fighter? And what is the moral difference between firing a missile into a childrens hospital, and blowing yourself to bits in a crowded restaurant? The only difference is the pricetag, and it sickens me that people don't understand this. If we allow ourselves to do anything to fight "terrorism" - and that boat seems to have sailed a long time ago - then we are the terrorists. Just look at how the western world all stand behind the Israeli governments oppression of the Palestine people, who is the terrorist here? Should we start applying the thumbscrews to our own people, and our allies? Hell no, they are freedom fighters, except it seems they misunderstood entirely the meaning of the word. Being a freedom fighter is to fight for the freedom of yourself and your allies - not to try to remove the freedoms of your perceived enemy.

I agree that there must be some level of defense, but we can't give the green light on everything. At some point it's just too much.

Brilliant post! You hit the nail on the head in regards to the mindset of the public. The plans of the conspirators do not scare me as much as the attitude of the people you described so eloquently above.

Thank you.

Hey, Tiger Woods' sex life is important. Man gets more ***** than a box full of kittens!

Yeah I think he took the Buddhist message of loving everyone unconditionally a bit too far. That being said, there are people who actually think like this.

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Posted (edited)

It's already too intrusive. Every phone call, email, text message, chat conversation... It's being analyzed and anything even remotely suspicious is stored for future reference.

Cameras everywhere, metal detectors to get into some schools nowadays, thumbprint databases, unwarranted wiretaps, neighbourhood watch, RFID chipped passports and cars (and soon people, judging by progress. Certain companies do offer RFID chips for humans, to track them. Like babies, or homeless people, or criminals). Homeland Security at the very least has the right to detain you for ever, without a good reason other than "We decided you might be a terrorist". Hell, it even allows torture. Where does it stop? These people are now worse than the spanish inquisition, because the inquisition did not have tracking devices. I read an article that allows Homeland Security to - in the name of combating terrorism - sexually abuse children in front of their parents, as an interrogation technique.

Where do you draw the line between a terrorist and a freedom fighter? And what is the moral difference between firing a missile into a childrens hospital, and blowing yourself to bits in a crowded restaurant? The only difference is the pricetag, and it sickens me that people don't understand this. If we allow ourselves to do anything to fight "terrorism" - and that boat seems to have sailed a long time ago - then we are the terrorists. Just look at how the western world all stand behind the Israeli governments oppression of the Palestine people, who is the terrorist here? Should we start applying the thumbscrews to our own people, and our allies? Hell no, they are freedom fighters, except it seems they misunderstood entirely the meaning of the word. Being a freedom fighter is to fight for the freedom of yourself and your allies - not to try to remove the freedoms of your perceived enemy.

I agree that there must be some level of defense, but we can't give the green light on everything. At some point it's just too much.

You nailed it again man, we have got a serious problem but if we keep control of the law, which seems unlikely I see us as standing a chance. Ultimately, most EU countries are sovreign state, the US also has means of potecting the people from the government. In theory at least. The idea of big government is not good, they are stepping over the line time and again but what do you do.

I've heard there was black op called project tomahawk or cyclone that claimed Al Quaeda or maybe the taliban was actually started or funded by the US. the whole strategy is adding fuel to the fire and make us question those within our communities more and more. It also just increases the feeling of fear and insecurity and we are paralyzed in apathy or confusion.

Edited by SlimJim22

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Yeah I think he took the Buddhist message of loving everyone unconditionally a bit too far. That being said, there are people who actually think like this.

I hate you...well, not really.

But you did bring back memories of a really bad fanfic I read years and years ago.

On topic though, a lot of people are really concerned about a 'nanny state'. The US is headed in that direction with traffic monitors (things like automatic radar stations and traffic cameras) but it hasn't become intrusive yet. Right now the worst is that if you are busted by a radar station, you have to show that it cannot be conclusively shown you were driving.

From what I understand, GB is barreling full tilt into the 'nanny-state' faster than Lindsey Lohan can toot a rail. They have cameras everywhere and are working on face-recognition software for those cameras. I also remember a story about a small town with close to a zero crime rate being forced to install cameras.

My big problem with surveillance isn't the observation issue. Here in the US, if you are in a public place, then it is fair game for your image to be captured. However, I am concerned about things like the ability to track. If some snot sitting at a keyboard somewhere goes 'gee, this boy looks suspicious' and follows the person across screens and camera fields until some infraction is committed, then to me, that has a great potential for abuse. Also, it could be used to stamp out gatherings that grow 'too large' for the taste of the authorities.

Yes the cameras can do a lot of good, like acting as silent witnesses, but unless someone was not only watching the right camera and the right time, but was also close enough to respond, they cannot prevent any crime. To me, the risk to our liberty is not justified (no risk is really).

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I hate you...well, not really.

But you did bring back memories of a really bad fanfic I read years and years ago.

On topic though, a lot of people are really concerned about a 'nanny state'. The US is headed in that direction with traffic monitors (things like automatic radar stations and traffic cameras) but it hasn't become intrusive yet. Right now the worst is that if you are busted by a radar station, you have to show that it cannot be conclusively shown you were driving.

From what I understand, GB is barreling full tilt into the 'nanny-state' faster than Lindsey Lohan can toot a rail. They have cameras everywhere and are working on face-recognition software for those cameras. I also remember a story about a small town with close to a zero crime rate being forced to install cameras.

My big problem with surveillance isn't the observation issue. Here in the US, if you are in a public place, then it is fair game for your image to be captured. However, I am concerned about things like the ability to track. If some snot sitting at a keyboard somewhere goes 'gee, this boy looks suspicious' and follows the person across screens and camera fields until some infraction is committed, then to me, that has a great potential for abuse. Also, it could be used to stamp out gatherings that grow 'too large' for the taste of the authorities.

Yes the cameras can do a lot of good, like acting as silent witnesses, but unless someone was not only watching the right camera and the right time, but was also close enough to respond, they cannot prevent any crime. To me, the risk to our liberty is not justified (no risk is really).

From what I can see, hardly anybody except us on these forums even think of or discuss these subjects. They feel like the country belongs to somebody else and as long as they are allowed to live and work here, they're happy. They believe every bit of the govt lies. I had to give up trying to tell people the CIA was behind the 9-11 things. They let me know right quick it was the Muslims and that people like me are just troublemakers. KennyB

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Posted (edited)

Who cares if you are being watched. The point is to make you stop doing things when you feel you are being watched or to restrict yourself, it's rather a mentality. It's about dehumanizing you and making you think you have no freedom because you are being watched. So, what you are being watched. That doesn't mean you have to give up your freedoms, it's a false sense of control. I believe that if you still do what you want to do even though being watched they will soon begin to notice that their system has no effect. It's making people wake up and realize that if you don't care if they are watching you..well then their system isn't going to go very far because it is not limiting you in any way.

You only limit yourself. Remember folks evil always comes in when society is at it's weakest, because it makes you feel who to choose between the lesser of the two evils. It's the mentality of making you feel as if you have no better choice. Well I don't believe really in a lesser of two evils, if you find yourself at that crossroad than it's time to go packing and start your own change. If you don't like the change on the table, then don't pick between the two evils because you feel you have to. Creativity is key, open up your own possiblities and stop being so lazy. Create the world you want, not the world the few elitest want. It's not a conspiracy, it's merely a mindset. Not like they could actually jail all of us, the jails are already massively overcrowded. If we all agreed to go against such acts..they could do nothing to stop us excecpt mass excutions, even then we could easily overrule them.

It's saying hey you, wake up inside, you can do it. You can make a change, who says that one person cant. Who says that inutition doesn't help? Society, and school books hammer this into you, that you have to be such and such to succeeed and that inutition will only make you fail standarize testing. Well guess what standarize testing is for people that are in the box. Who cares if you fail them? It's merely a test of averageness when you come down to it. Let's show them that creativity and unique form is back, instead of all of us fitting into some categorized checklist. As soon as we deviate from the norm we are considered to have mental/physical health issues like kids with AHDH or ADD. Who made it okay to say it was wrong to be a little hyperactive just because it didn't fit into your own dam timeschedule.

I can't wait to see the change in the next few years, a hard struggle of identity, but a much needed reform of self.

Edited by puridalan

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1984 26 years late

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From what I can see, hardly anybody except us on these forums even think of or discuss these subjects. They feel like the country belongs to somebody else and as long as they are allowed to live and work here, they're happy. They believe every bit of the govt lies. I had to give up trying to tell people the CIA was behind the 9-11 things. They let me know right quick it was the Muslims and that people like me are just troublemakers. KennyB

Well I don't know if the CIA was behind 9/11. I am inclined to think they knew more than they let on. I do think terrorists did ram hijacked airplanes into the towers, I do not know about whether or not there were cutter charges there. It seems unlikely to me, considering you'd need to silence thousands of people working in the offices. It had several security agencies working there, and I find it strange that nobody seems to have come forward and said they saw the charges being planted. Sounds to me like someone would have testified to that by now. That being said, I refuse to dismiss the overwhelming possibility that top governmental personell knew about it and may even have assisted in making it happen. Considering all the evidence that points towards a good relationship between intelligence agencies (such as the CIA) and al quaeda, not to mention the Bush / Bin Laden relationship, and how the western forces cleverly avoid poking Saudi-Arabia, in case they might find something, but gladly bomb the hell out of Iraqis and are begging for a good reason to jump on Iran.

Who cares if you are being watched. The point is to make you stop doing things when you feel you are being watched or to restrict yourself, it's rather a mentality. It's about dehumanizing you and making you think you have no freedom because you are being watched. So, what you are being watched. That doesn't mean you have to give up your freedoms, it's a false sense of control. I believe that if you still do what you want to do even though being watched they will soon begin to notice that their system has no effect. It's making people wake up and realize that if you don't care if they are watching you..well then their system isn't going to go very far because it is not limiting you in any way.

You only limit yourself. Remember folks evil always comes in when society is at it's weakest, because it makes you feel who to choose between the lesser of the two evils. It's the mentality of making you feel as if you have no better choice. Well I don't believe really in a lesser of two evils, if you find yourself at that crossroad than it's time to go packing and start your own change. If you don't like the change on the table, then don't pick between the two evils because you feel you have to. Creativity is key, open up your own possiblities and stop being so lazy. Create the world you want, not the world the few elitest want. It's not a conspiracy, it's merely a mindset. Not like they could actually jail all of us, the jails are already massively overcrowded. If we all agreed to go against such acts..they could do nothing to stop us excecpt mass excutions, even then we could easily overrule them.

It's saying hey you, wake up inside, you can do it. You can make a change, who says that one person cant. Who says that inutition doesn't help? Society, and school books hammer this into you, that you have to be such and such to succeeed and that inutition will only make you fail standarize testing. Well guess what standarize testing is for people that are in the box. Who cares if you fail them? It's merely a test of averageness when you come down to it. Let's show them that creativity and unique form is back, instead of all of us fitting into some categorized checklist. As soon as we deviate from the norm we are considered to have mental/physical health issues like kids with AHDH or ADD. Who made it okay to say it was wrong to be a little hyperactive just because it didn't fit into your own dam timeschedule.

I can't wait to see the change in the next few years, a hard struggle of identity, but a much needed reform of self.

I am inclined to agree that the system depends heavily on people actually allowing it to have power over them. It's like Vampire lore - they can't come in unless you invite them.

Not to mention that there are billions of regular people who live in this mess, while only a handful by comparison create and enforce it. If there was to be an uprising, they couldn't stand a chance. At some point even hired guns find the body count is stacking up too high.

The problem is that while the battle isn't over until the last bullet is fired - it kinda is if you're the first one out of the trench and get a bullet in your brain. See where I'm going with this? Nobody has the guts to stick out their necks, and the few who do are labeled weird or even insane by the rest. As an example I can mention that for example psychiatry has the power to deem you insane, commit you and drug you to your eyeballs by force. You have zero human rights if someone decides to play that card. Same thing if you are labeled a terrorist. And now, in the UK and the US, there are pamphlets that describe: Your neighbour might be a terrorist if: they have a drivers atlas in the car, they don't talk to the neighbours much, they keep their curtains closed a lot, they prefer to pay with cash - or they are obsessed with human rights.

Plus if you consider what has happened to prominent public figures like Gandhi, Kennedy, King and Lennon just to name a few, you see that sticking your nose out is usually rewarded with assassination, so theres that stopping people from taking charge of their life and try to create a better world. Basically there are a million and one very physical things that can happen to you (legally) under the guise of national security, which means that things could become all around a lot more painful for you and those around you, if you actually did take charge and do whatever you wanted.

1984 26 years late

We're not there yet, but it's getting close.

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I've heard there was black op called project tomahawk or cyclone that claimed Al Quaeda or maybe the taliban was actually started or funded by the US. the whole strategy is adding fuel to the fire and make us question those within our communities more and more. It also just increases the feeling of fear and insecurity and we are paralyzed in apathy or confusion.

Well I don't know if the CIA was behind 9/11. I am inclined to think they knew more than they let on. I do think terrorists did ram hijacked airplanes into the towers, I do not know about whether or not there were cutter charges there. It seems unlikely to me, considering you'd need to silence thousands of people working in the offices. It had several security agencies working there, and I find it strange that nobody seems to have come forward and said they saw the charges being planted. Sounds to me like someone would have testified to that by now. That being said, I refuse to dismiss the overwhelming possibility that top governmental personell knew about it and may even have assisted in making it happen.

It's a fairly well established fact the U.S./C.I.A was involved in initial support of the Al Qaeda and operation Cyclone in an effort to oust the Soviets out of Afghanistan (ie. http://www.greenleft.org.au/2001/465/25199). Whether those affiliation continued through Sept. 2001 and beyond is speculation. I have yet to see any hard evidence of CIA connection with Al Queda or jihadis. There is one story that recently caught my attention of a former DEA agent who was involved in the 2008 Bombay bombing. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/mumbai-terror-suspect-pleads-guilty/

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Who cares if you are being watched. The point is to make you stop doing things when you feel you are being watched or to restrict yourself, it's rather a mentality. It's about dehumanizing you and making you think you have no freedom because you are being watched. So, what you are being watched. That doesn't mean you have to give up your freedoms, it's a false sense of control. I believe that if you still do what you want to do even though being watched they will soon begin to notice that their system has no effect. It's making people wake up and realize that if you don't care if they are watching you..well then their system isn't going to go very far because it is not limiting you in any way.

You make a good point puridalan, but I do not presume these guys are only barking with no bite. They do not just say we are watching you. They collect the information to use (usually later at a time of their choosing). Do not forget about the Japanese internment camps during WWII. Do not forget about the round up of Muslims after 9-11.

There are plenty of laws on the books not enforced either because law enforcers don't want the hassled and citizens are not aware or find them inconvenient. I am talking about driving using a cell phone, jay walking, loitering, unlawful public gatherings. Surveillance makes these laws easily enforceable and almost undefendable. That means any time they want to mess with you, they can. New laws are being established such as mandated health insurance. The car insurance was not enough. Soon there may be mandated ids.

Nobody has the guts to stick out their necks, and the few who do are labeled weird or even insane by the rest. As an example I can mention that for example psychiatry has the power to deem you insane, commit you and drug you to your eyeballs by force. You have zero human rights if someone decides to play that card. Same thing if you are labeled a terrorist. And now, in the UK and the US, there are pamphlets that describe: Your neighbour might be a terrorist if: they have a drivers atlas in the car, they don't talk to the neighbours much, they keep their curtains closed a lot, they prefer to pay with cash - or they are obsessed with human rights.

Being charges with crimes may be the least of the worries. You can be declare insane or worse a terrorist, in which case most rights and access to counsel, etc are denied. You'll be lucky if your family even know you were picked up.

I would like to say I am only speculating but the fact is people have already had these things happen to them going back to soon after 9-11.

What we are seeing is not a threat (to scare people into compliance) but a refinement of the control infrastructure. The infrastructure is in place. Better utilization and management of the tools is what they are working on as Mr. Harris points out in the video above.

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Posted (edited)

I fully understand that, but they cannot jail billions of people simple as that. The only option they have is mass extermination, which would be a holocaust..which are still happening all over the world as we speak. In reality, they could use anything against you to get what they want, they do not even have to have a reason.

For example you are minding your own business and all of a sudden you are attacked. You didn't do anything, yet someone imposed their own wants on you forceably and obviously went into your own personal freedoms. Governments do the exact same thing. The point is, is so what? They want you to be dumbed down and feel hopless. I relate this to our health espeically in American society in the early-mid 20th century acute illness were the most common. Now we are seeing a trend that chronic illness are more common, and most chronic illness are tied with a sense of hopelessness. It's merely a mindset! Society has chosen to deem them as incurable and hopeless when the reality is, that it is not.

It is mentality. We do not have to be caged, we do have the right to do what we want. Don't become like the rest of the populace and say oo well guess you're just going to die, don't look at it merely from a biomedical model of life or death. Rather a biopsychosocial model which encompasses much more than life or death but the quality of life itself.

Not to long ago in the 80s was HIV and other things discovered, and in that time before that it was only approached from a biomedical model of life and death. However, with a span of over 26 new drugs we as a society can have the option of moving to a biopsychosocial model of not just life and death but giving AID/HIV positive individuals not just the choice of life and death but a certain quality of life, same with cancers in the recent years.

It's approaching life from various different angles, creativity is key and listening to the world will make your life more fufilling.

To Rahyne

I fully accept the consquences of my actions, and know that at any moment deciding to go against the flow could cause havoc not only upon me but my loved ones. I recognize this, but do not fear it. I also know that any point i could die or be abducted...hell you could die from tripping over a rock. Life is precious and living in fear isn't going to do anything except fuel the seed of 'evil'. It isn't easy, no it's not easy putting your life work aside to help a 'greater' cause. As you said most people will not support you call your a moron, spit on your face...when you fight for others freedoms sometimes they can be very rude and not understanding at all.

I can honestly say I am not afraid of death. What I fear is not being able to live and not being able to die. Torture, basically. I know in my heart that there are individuals who will be with me if this ever shall occur. Our spirtuality, belief systems, actions along with various other pieces will allow us to ban together in times of need.

Many people in such cases will die, but I will not stand there and just watch people be slaughted. I would rather be the first one dead in ordeer to help prevent a major catastrophe. At the same time I agree with not just sacrificing your life for nothing and if you do, decide to do that, that having a plan is very much needed and getting contacts set up around the world is important. It's creating your own network systems, and setting energy fields around you to send out a 'beacon' essentially.

Edited by puridalan

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I fully accept the consquences of my actions, and know that at any moment deciding to go against the flow could cause havoc not only upon me but my loved ones. I recognize this, but do not fear it. I also know that any point i could die or be abducted...hell you could die from tripping over a rock. Life is precious and living in fear isn't going to do anything except fuel the seed of 'evil'. It isn't easy, no it's not easy putting your life work aside to help a 'greater' cause. As you said most people will not support you call your a moron, spit on your face...when you fight for others freedoms sometimes they can be very rude and not understanding at all.

I can honestly say I am not afraid of death. What I fear is not being able to live and not being able to die. Torture, basically. I know in my heart that there are individuals who will be with me if this ever shall occur. Our spirtuality, belief systems, actions along with various other pieces will allow us to ban together in times of need.

Many people in such cases will die, but I will not stand there and just watch people be slaughted. I would rather be the first one dead in ordeer to help prevent a major catastrophe. At the same time I agree with not just sacrificing your life for nothing and if you do, decide to do that, that having a plan is very much needed and getting contacts set up around the world is important. It's creating your own network systems, and setting energy fields around you to send out a 'beacon' essentially.

I do not fear death either, to me it's just a new challenge really, but not everyone sees it that way. Most people do fear it. And - as you admitted, your actions can have consequences for your loved ones. Are you prepared to possibly cause their suffering? Not everybody would be prepared to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I do not suggest anyone should live in fear. I think they should do the opposite. And yes, this whole thing is just a mindset. Nobody can tell you who you are and what you are allowed to do, short of holding you captive. Nobody can make you do anything you do not want to do, but here's the kicker, you can however have your options limited by other people, a good example of this is through torture. And I have to wonder how you would react if you were given two options:

Option A) Conform with the rules and wishes of the public, abandoning your own views, becoming part of the mince.

Option B) Do it like the Russians (and others) do: Take it out on everyone you care about, leaving you alive.

Let's say you resist Option A, and go for Option B.

Worst case scenario, you might have a female family member like a mother, sister or even daughter. What would you do then, if suddenly they were put through the old Asian torture method involving the rapid growth of bamboo plants and bodily orifices? Imagine the pain you'd be letting someone innocent go through just so you can stick to your principles? No, you'd fold pretty quick, I think. The problem here is that the individuals that have been elected by ordinary people, say that this kind of "interrogation technique" is perfectly acceptable to combat terrorism - and this can be done without even having a lick of evidence to support the notion that you did something wrong. The surveillance stuff enables them to do this kind of thing efficiently, because when people know they can be taken off for questioning without even a trial, they are more likely to guard their tongue, and so pretty soon, we have Orwells 1984, where even suspicion of dissent is something that is not tolerated in the slightest.

Thats why the surveillance is so bad. It's not only making it difficult for people to feel free to express themselves without an established government watching you at all times, but it also works as a stepping stone towards an even tighter chokehold on freedom, because the following reasoning is pushed on people: Terrorism happens - therefore we need to preemptively stomp it out. A year later we see that terrorism is almost gone. We stopped some incidents and others stopped doing it. Look, success! and so it's justified.

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Yup, and I understand that the best especially working to help stop north korean concentration camps with groups such as the final frontiers. I first came aware of it when I was 11 when I had my first pre-cog dream of being put into another asian womans body and brutatly tortured in a camp..and from there did more research years later. Of course it is only smart to use the ones you love in order to make you stop. I know though that my own mother though depending on the risks of it would want me to continue. Again if you can aviod it and do a lot of planning in order to stop being 'captured' then it is good. Once you are very very public it is hard for them to just blatantly outright kill or torture your family, though it is certainly not impossible.

Like I said I'm not afraid of death, it's torture and them keeping you just alive enough but not quiet dead. One of the most vile things, yup..not like it's an easy choice again

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Hmm, to the OP, you can't have security and freedom walking on the same street, or something along those lines, with freedom and security comes ricks of being just too safe. We were already surrounded by what should be called geological fortress, that was dissolved on 9/11, but then again, we demanded security from the "tv-terrorists", and they responded in kind.

WE, the people, asked for this, they didn't shove anything on us, they responded, to our demands for security, vengeance, and overall prideful rebuke to our common man.

EA

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Sometimes that is exactly why I want to move out and live in a tribe someday, figure it's better than the type of society I am in now. Granted I do not hate it, but many things are not apperciated and overlooked too often.

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WE, the people, asked for this, they didn't shove anything on us, they responded, to our demands for security, vengeance, and overall prideful rebuke to our common man.

EA

I don't know. Maybe you asked for it. I didn't. I was fine.

But seriously, those that asked for security are mindless (or naive)... they asked and expected to be protected at no cost. They wanted things the easy way. They wanted to deal with the problems on the surface instead at its core. So now the problem still exist and now they have new problems. The sad thing is that most do not even know it.

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Sometimes that is exactly why I want to move out and live in a tribe someday, figure it's better than the type of society I am in now.

If you mean live in isolation and off the land, then I am not prepared to do that just yet. However, if things continue this way much longer... we will see.

To paraphrase an old saying: when I was young I struggled to change the system, now I struggle to keep the system from changing me.

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