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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

Just a miscalculation regarding which thread went first...it isn't any kind of purposeful change to the other topic title. I can change the title to anything anyone wishes.

A miscalculation... ok.

For a minute I thought Alien Being was one of the admins here.

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There is no need for the kind of outburst and namecalling for something like this; and I do not appreciate the rude "idiot" comment. It is not tolerated towards other members, and certainly will not be tolerated towards staff. A simple note sent to a Mod pointing out a needed change can be dealt with right away, no problem...calling people an idiot(Who are spending their free time trying to help people out) for such matters just isn't acceptable. I spend several hours a day fulfilling peoples request (like merging this thread, solving technical problems, stopping spammers, refereeing arguments... ) and I don't get paid to do so, so slaps in the face like that just are not appreciated.

I did send a note to the admins (two in fact), but like I said, I got the feeling Alien Being was one of the admins here, and did the merging him/herself.

And the 'idiots' must be seen in that light...

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This is no good lol

You've moved my Stone Age Atlantis Thread to this one and people wont realise now there is a documentry on tonight at 7pm on the National Geographic Channel in the UK called Stone Age Atlantis which has been investigating the Doggerland region in the North Sea.

They have evidence the whole region went down in one go not from rising sea levels at the end of the last ice age. They also have evidence of settlements under the water.

If anybody misses it their website says it will be repeated twice next week.

That evidence has been shown here ad nauseum, but I highlighted the important part of your post, so no one can miss it.

EDIT:

Next Showing: Tuesday 13 April at 7:00PM - National Geographic Channel

Repeats: Friday 16 April at 2:00PM - National Geographic , Saturday 17 April at 3:00PM - National Geographic Channel

Edited by Abramelin

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That evidence has been shown here ad nauseum, but I highlighted the important part of your post, so no one can miss it.

EDIT:

Next Showing: Tuesday 13 April at 7:00PM - National Geographic Channel

Repeats: Friday 16 April at 2:00PM - National Geographic , Saturday 17 April at 3:00PM - National Geographic Channel

Well, Alien Being, I must admit I did't see that documentary on National Geographic - and it wasn't announced either - but I live in Holland, and so maybe we here must wait a while longer.

But... it appears to me that whatever you saw during that documentary didn't impress you much, or else you would certainly have posted about it.

Much like I expected.

No Atlantis here, sorry.

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Well, Alien Being, I must admit I did't see that documentary on National Geographic - and it wasn't announced either - but I live in Holland, and so maybe we here must wait a while longer.

But... it appears to me that whatever you saw during that documentary didn't impress you much, or else you would certainly have posted about it.

Much like I expected.

No Atlantis here, sorry.

I'm back.

No I'm not an admin and I kicked up a fuss when they merged my thread into this one. I made the mistake of thinking I could watch Stone Age Atlantis when I wanted to on cable but strangly the film still isnt on the playback list.

I've not seen it but its on tomorrow evening at 7pm again. Anybody found it on Youtube?

Edited by Alien Being

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I'm back.

No I'm not an admin and I kicked up a fuss when they merged my thread into this one. I made the mistake of thinking I could watch Stone Age Atlantis when I wanted to on cable but strangly the film still isnt on the playback list.

I've not seen it but its on tomorrow evening at 7pm again. Anybody found it on Youtube?

What you think?? I tried to find it on YouTube, but it wasnt there..

We will have to wait a couple of days, but I can tell you now... it will not be what YOU had hoped for.

Forget about `Atlantis`, .......... instead... focus on some unknown submerged area of land, also known as ..`Doggerland´.

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I guess the documentary wasn't that spectacular, or else someone would have posted about it.

The Dutch version of National Geographic has not even announced the documentary, so I didn't see it, but I will as soon as I have it watched here in Holland.

==

OK, something else......

To my surprize I found out there are still active volcanoes in Germany, and they are in the Eifel region ( south of Bonn). And these volcanoes may have had an influence on Northern Europe (and thus, on Doggerland), right after the end of the last ice age..

Abstract: Around 12,920 years BP, during the final phases of the Alleröd warm period, the Laacher See-

volcano erupted explosively and catastrophically. This eruption was one of the most significant and largest

volcanic events of the Late Pleistocene in the Northern Hemisphere and it covered an area upwards of

1300 km in lava (ignimbrite) and ash deposits more than 10 m thick in places. The eruption column may

have reached a height of up to 40 km and ash was deposited over vast swaths of Europe. The occurrence of

Laacher See tephra (LST) in archaeological stratigraphies has, for more than fifty years, served as a useful

chronostratigraphic marker for the Late Glacial. However, it has not so far been considered whether the

Laacher See-eruption (LSE) may also have had long-term impacts on contemporaneous forager societies

and their cultural evolution. Based on calibrated C14 dates, mapping of the tephra layers in relation to

the occurrence of Late Glacial techno-complexes and a technological-quantitative analysis of Late Glacial

projectile points, this paper offers a new hypothesis suggesting that the origin of the well known Bromme

culture of Southern Scandinavia and the rather more enigmatic Perstunian of eastern Europe is directly

and causally related to the LSE. Despite the fact that measurable climate change in the wake of the

LSE appears to have been minor, this event seemingly triggered far-reaching demographic fluctuations,

which precipitated archaeologically visible material culture change. In particular, it is shown here that

the emergence of the Bromme culture and the Perstunien goes hand in hand with the loss of bow-and-

arrow technology. Furthermore, it is suggested tentatively that other areas, some of which were rather far

removed from the Laacher See-volcano itself (e.g., the British Isles), may also have been affected. Finally,

a number of research strategies and recommendations are made which could test, further substantiate or

falsify the hypothesis put forward here.

Keywords: Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, Late Glacial, Bromme culture, Perstunian, Laacher See-

eruption, Projectile points, Material culture change

http://www.urgeschic...lung16_mail.pdf

Laacher See

() or Laach Lake (in English) is a caldera lake and a potentially active volcano, in Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany, situated close to the cities of Koblenz (24 km), and Bonn (37 km), and closest to the towns Andernach (8 km), and Mayen (11 km). The caldera lake lies just 8 km from the river Rhine at Aldernach. Just like the nearby 'Wehrer Kessel' volcano and Rieden volcano, the Laacher See volcano forms a volcanic caldera in the Eifel mountain range. It is part of the area called "East Eifel volcanic field".

The great Eifel lake takes its name from the Old High German word "lacha" which in turn is derived from Latin "lacus" as English "lake". Thus the name literally means "Lake of the Lake" similar to the "Loch Lochy" in the Scottish Highlands with the same meaning.

The lake lies 259 m above sea level, is 8 km in circumference, and surrounded by a ring of high hills. The water is blue, very cold and bitter to the taste. The lake has no natural outlet and so the water level changes considerably due to evaporation and rainfall conditions. On the western side lies the Benedictine monastery of Maria Laach Abbey (), founded in 1093 by Henry II of Laach of the House of Luxembourg, first count palatine of the Rhine who has had his castle opposite to the monastery above the eastern lakeside.

The caldera was formed after the colossal Laacher See eruption dated to 12'900 years ago[1][2][3]. The remaining crust collapsed into the empty magma chamber below, probably two or three days after the eruption.[4] With an estimated 6 km? of magma erupted,[5] this colossal eruption had a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6, was one and a half times larger than the colossal 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo (Philippines) which also had a VEI of 6; and six times larger than the massive 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens (United States) had a VEI of 5.

Tephra deposits from the eruption dammed the Rhine, creating a lake. When the dam broke, an outburst flood swept downstream, leaving deposits as far away as Bonn.[5]

The Laacher eruption concides with the onset of the abrupt Younger Dryas reglaciation, which brought renewed very cold conditions to the northern hemisphere from 12.9 to 11.6 ka. However, any relationship between this climate change and the eruption is speculative; eruptions of the size of the Laacher See eruption usually cause only short-term global cooling.

Remains of this eruption can be found all over Europe and the tephra is often used for dating of sediments.[6][7] A number of unique minerals can be found in the region,[8] and quarries mine the stone as a building material.

The Laacher See is a potentially active volcano, proven by seismic activities and heavy thermal anomalies under the lake. Carbon dioxide gas from magma still bubbles up at the southeastern shore,[9] and scientists believe that a new eruption could happen at any time, which, today, would be a disaster beyond all description, especially considering that Germany is a heavily populated country and this caldera lies just 8 km from the Rhine at Aldernach. If the new eruption were comparable in size to its previous one and were to reach the Rhine which as a waterway and as a heavily populated basin, links many cities and many major industrial centers on its shores up to its mouth near Rotterdam in Holland - these places downtream and also upstream the river could potentially be at a risk of flooding, loss of life and ruin. It would also be economic disaster of global proportions as Germany is the richest country in Europe, dubbed as "Europe's economic engine", and the fourth richest in the world - it is the world's second largest exporter and second largest importer of goods. Especially with economic globalization and interdependence, any major damage and disruption to Germany?s economy and also the already integrated economies of Europe, would possibly lead to a worldwide economic depression.

http://www.tutorgig.com/ed/Laacher_See

The Laacher See volcano is the red dot on the next map:

rhine-map2.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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The caldera was formed after the colossal Laacher See eruption dated to 12'900 years ago[1][2][3]. The remaining crust collapsed into the empty magma chamber below, probably two or three days after the eruption.[4] With an estimated 6 km? of magma erupted,[5] this colossal eruption had a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6, was one and a half times larger than the colossal 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo (Philippines) which also had a VEI of 6; and six times larger than the massive 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens (United States) had a VEI of 5.

For the sake of accuracy, Abramelin, it should be noted that anything greater than 1 KM3 and less than 10 KM3 would be a VEI 5 and NOT VEI 6 as the above quote claims. It is, however, an interesting eruption.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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For the sake of accuracy, Abramelin, it should be noted that anything greater than 1 KM3 and less than 10 KM3 would be a VEI 5 and NOT VEI 6 as the above quote claims. It is, however, an interesting eruption.

cormac

Yes, that's right. Maybe just a typo?

I checked the link I quoted from, and there's another link on that webpage giving examples for these classifications, and the Laacher See Eruption is a VEI 5 according to the table.

http://www.tutorgig....plosivity_Index

I agree it's an interesting eruption, and the reason I posted it is because it may have influenced the movement of people to Doggerland, some 10,000 BC.

It's a pitty the first link is to a pdf in German (and I'm glad they added an abstract in English, which I posted), but they mention a couple of cultures I have never heard of before.

The eruption must have obstructed the river Rhine with all kinds of debri and ash, and it's effect will certainly have been felt in the North Sea area.

EDIT:

A correction: I placed the Laacher See Volcano in the wrong place on the map in my former post; it is actually located west of Koblenz (it's "B" in the next map):

LaacherSee_Koblenz.jpg

..and it's the red cross in this map:

rhine-map3.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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I found an old (2007) article in "Der Spiegel" (and excuses for my translation):

Professional consensus of a possible eruption in the Eifel

The experts agree that there will be eruptions in the Eifel mountains again. But no one can say when: "Perhaps even millennia from now, but it can also be in a few months so far," says Hinzen. Probably the Eifel are embarking on a new phase of activity, says the volcanologist Hans-Ulrich Schmincke by the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences in Kiel, who has researched the Eifel volcanoes for years.

The resting phase ended abruptly 12,900 years ago when there was a huge eruption in the Eifel. "Back then there was probably similar composure as it is today," said Schmincke. "The Ur-Rhinelander were certainly not expecting a volcanic eruption, it had been dormant for the last 100,000 years." But one day magma came in contact with ground water. The shock wave from the explosion snapped all the trees in the area around like matchsticks. Ash shot high and reached 30 km with the southwest wind into the direction of Sweden. West Germany was clouded in a gray ash rain.

Lava dammed the river Rhine near Andernach, Koblenz, the present-day region stand several meters under water. Days later, the lava dam bursted and a tidal wave shot up to the Netherlands, enormous mud flows and floods buried the Rhine Valley. Prehistoric tools and skeletons in the gravel layers show that the ancient Rhinelanders were surprised by the disaster. After the magma reservoir had emptied at the site of the eruption, the floor collapsed - creating the present lake of the Laacher See.

http://www.spiegel.d...nschaft/natur/0,1518,466051,00.html

Edited by Abramelin

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OK, maybe it's a bit of overkill, but here's another article about that Laacher See Eruption, and what it might have caused for the people living back then:

Supervolcano made people grit their teeth

Ash covered area the size of Minnesota and covered everything edible

By Michael Reilly

updated 5:35 p.m. ET Sept. 25, 2009

If you've ever eaten a sandy batch of shellfish, you know the feeling: the terrible crunching and grinding that cracks through your jaw, making you question the wisdom of your choice of food. Now imagine that feeling with every bite you take, every meal of every day.

If a new study is right, that's what early humans and animals felt after the Laacher See supervolcano exploded in central Europe 13,000 years ago, and it drove them out of the region.

Laacher See was a tremendous blast. It devastated 540 square miles of forested land right around the crater and conservative estimates suggest an area the size of Minnesota was covered in a blanket of ash and rock bits.

Flung into the air at the slightest breeze, the fluffy mixture of tephra particles stung the eyes, irritated the lungs and coated anything animals or people would have cared to eat. For game animals like elk, hare and reindeer, chewing plants would've ground their teeth to the pulp and left them starving.

Wildlife probably fled the worst affected areas of central Europe, leaving northern tribes living in Germany, the Netherlands and southern Sweden marooned on a withered landscape. Populations dwindled, and archaeological evidence suggests they abandoned bows and arrows in favor of more primitive hunting spears.

"We have very little information on how small scale hunter-gatherer societies would respond to this," said Felix Riede of Aarhus University in Denmark. "Would they just leave? Or would they try and deal with the tephra?"

In a study published in the Journal of Archaeological Science, Riede and colleague Jeffrey Wheeler of the University of Cambridge in the United Kingdom show that the volcanic particles are about twice as hard as most mammal teeth, including those belonging to humans.

Any meal seasoned with a coating of tephra would have been miserable, if not life-threatening.

Even a few months of exposure to tephra could have been devastating. But Riede and Wheeler think it could have lingered on the landscape for as much as 300 years, carried away by rain only to return in drifting, wind-blown dunes.

Still, John Grattan of Abersystwyth University in the United Kingdom points out that there is a silver lining to the Laacher See eruption.

"The people living in Central Europe adapted to these intense stresses," he said. "They were able to cope with them, and to survive."

"We grew up in a volcanic environment," he added, noting that most of our fossil records of early humans come from the volcanically active region of eastern Africa. "That kind of pressure and stress, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, as our friend Nietzsche would say."

http://www.msnbc.msn...cience-science/

Some extra links:

http://www.sciencedi...21aa908aac3c8b9

http://www.therafoun...rseecasehistory

http://www.sciencedi...915bad23168939f

http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/11397/

http://www.sciencedi...5f9dac32a3c7e43

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My idea is this:

After the Laacher See eruption people moved away from the effected area. Probably they moved south and east, and, west and north. The effected area would have created sort of a barren landscape dividing these peoples for a very long time.

Those that already lived in the British Islands, Norway, Holland, North Germany, Denmark, and , of course, Doggerland, AND together with the people who fled to these areas, would have developed separately.

Now adding the fact that Doggerland soon became the post-ice-age Eden as claimed by scientists, this catastrophic event may well have been the origin of a different culture developing there in separation.

Speculation, yes. Possible? I think so.

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From your above quote:

If a new study is right, that's what early humans and animals felt after the Laacher See supervolcano exploded in central Europe 13,000 years ago, and it drove them out of the region.

Actual definition:

A supervolcano is a volcano capable of producing a super volcanic eruption, which is a volcanic eruption with ejecta greater than 1,000 cubic kilometers (240 cubic miles)...

Source

Using the term "supervolcano" is quite misleading, based on the size of the eruption.

Laacher See was a tremendous blast. It devastated 540 square miles of forested land right around the crater and conservative estimates suggest an area the size of Minnesota was covered in a blanket of ash and rock bits.

So it devastated an area around the crater approximately 23 X 23 miles in diameter. Not that large really. And an area "the size of Minnesota", using an approximate North/South distance would make it roughly 190 X 190 miles. This is just the area that got covered to an indetermined depth with ash and rock bits.

cormac

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From your above quote:

Actual definition:

Source

Using the term "supervolcano" is quite misleading, based on the size of the eruption.

So it devastated an area around the crater approximately 23 X 23 miles in diameter. Not that large really. And an area "the size of Minnesota", using an approximate North/South distance would make it roughly 190 X 190 miles. This is just the area that got covered to an indetermined depth with ash and rock bits.

cormac

I posted an article for laymen because I am well aware of the fact that hardly anyone is willing to read (an abstract of) a scientific paper.

After 2 sentences most will start yawning and stop reading..

The area directly effected by the blast may not have been that big, but the ash in combination with the winds will surely have effected a much larger area (read the German pdf file I posted earlier: it has a map depicting how far and in what directions the ash spread; its roughly from south/west (into present-day France) to north/northeast (up to Scandinavia) from the eruption).

Btw: I hope you also read the other posts I made before my latter one?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I posted an article for laymen because I am well aware of the fact that hardly anyone is willing to read (an abstract of) a scientific paper.

After 2 sentences most will start yawning and stop reading..

The area directly effected by the blast may not have been that big, but the ash in combination with the winds will surely have effected a much larger area (read the German pdf file I posted earlier: it has a map depicting how far and in what directions the ash spread; its roughly from south/west (into present-day France) to north/northeast (up to Scandinavia) from the eruption).

Btw: I hope you also read the other posts I made before my latter one?

.

Here's a screenshot of that map in the German PDF file:

LAACHERSEE-ASH.jpg

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I posted an article for laymen because I am well aware of the fact that hardly anyone is willing to read (an abstract of) a scientific paper.

After 2 sentences most will start yawning and stop reading..

The area directly effected by the blast may not have been that big, but the ash in combination with the winds will surely have effected a much larger area (read the German pdf file I posted earlier: it has a map depicting how far and in what directions the ash spread; its roughly from south/west (into present-day France) to north/northeast (up to Scandinavia) from the eruption).

Btw: I hope you also read the other posts I made before my latter one?

.

Hello Abramelin,

I'm never sure how much stock you're putting into some of the articles you find, or the way they're written, let alone how much others are taking away from having read them. That said, unless the articles are written by specialists there tends to be a good smattering of sensationalism in them. The Laacher See eruption, for instance. Some have probably read the previous post and thought "OMG, there was a super massive eruption in ancient Germany that obliterated everything". Wrong. It was locally significant, but in comparison to eruptions over the last 2 Million years it wasn't much more than a burp. Even its relationship to the Younger Dryas can't be much more than speculated on.

Yes I read your links, always. I don't agree with the idea of blond hair and blue eyes originating in Doggerland as has been speculated a time or two before, particularly as the evidence for the blue-eye gene originates well away from that area. But I have no problem with Doggerland having been of some historical importance before its disappearance.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Hello Abramelin,

I'm never sure how much stock you're putting into some of the articles you find, or the way they're written, let alone how much others are taking away from having read them. That said, unless the articles are written by specialists there tends to be a good smattering of sensationalism in them. The Laacher See eruption, for instance. Some have probably read the previous post and thought "OMG, there was a super massive eruption in ancient Germany that obliterated everything". Wrong. It was locally significant, but in comparison to eruptions over the last 2 Million years it wasn't much more than a burp. Even its relationship to the Younger Dryas can't be much more than speculated on.

Yes I read your links, always. I don't agree with the idea of blond hair and blue eyes originating in Doggerland as has been speculated a time or two before, particularly as the evidence for the blue-eye gene originates well away from that area. But I have no problem with Doggerland having been of some historical importance before its disappearance.

cormac

The other articles I linked to, the scientific papers, say almost the same, but yeah, not in a sensationalist manner. And even these papers do not all agree about the magnitude and effects of this eruption.

And with the other posts before I meant those about the Laacher See Eruption, not about where white, blond, blue eyed people might have originated.

EDIT:

Here's what one recent paper says (from a link in my former post, right after the sensationalist article):

http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/11397/

The Laacher See-eruption (12,920 BP) and material culture change at the end of the Allerød in Northern Europe

Riede, F. (2008) The Laacher See-eruption (12,920 BP) and material culture change at the end of the Allerød in Northern Europe. Journal of Archaeological Science, 35 (3). pp. 591-599. ISSN 03054403

Abstract

A number of recent papers have argued that summed probability distributions of radiocarbon dates calibrated with the CALPAL software package can be used to identify population trends in prehistory. For instance, Gamble et al. (Gamble, C., Davies, W., Pettitt, P., Richards, M., 2004. Climate change and evolving human diversity in Europe during the last glacial. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London, Series B 359, 243–254; Gamble, C., Davies, W., Pettitt, P., Richards, M., 2005. The archaeological and genetic foundations of the European population during the Late Glacial: implications for 'agricultural thinking'. Cambridge Archaeological Journal 15, 193–223.) have demonstrated that during the European Late Glacial, demography was more variable than hitherto acknowledged. Building on this work, this paper presents evidence that the large, but so far largely ignored eruption of the Laacher See-volcano, located in present-day western Germany and dated to 12,920 BP, had a dramatic impact on forager demography all along the northern periphery of Late Glacial settlement and precipitated archaeologically visible cultural change. In Southern Scandinavia, these changes took the form of technological simplification, the loss of bow-and-arrow technology, and coincident with these changes, the emergence of the regionally distinct Bromme culture. Groups in north-eastern Europe appear to have responded to the eruption in similar ways, but on the British Isles and in the Thuringian Basin populations contracted or relocated, leaving these areas largely depopulated already before the onset of the Younger Dryas/GS-1 cooling. Demographic models are used to link these changes to the Laacher See-eruption and this research demonstrates that we cannot sideline catastrophic environmental change in our reconstructions of prehistoric culture history.

And the effects were not so much caused by the magnitude of the eruption, but to the (chemical) composition of the ash.

Edited by Abramelin

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Groups in north-eastern Europe appear to have responded to the eruption in similar ways, but on the British Isles and in the Thuringian Basin populations contracted or relocated, leaving these areas largely depopulated already before the onset of the Younger Dryas/GS-1 cooling.

Considering that the Laacher See eruption and the Younger Dryas are pretty much contemporary, and as the area of the British Isles and Thuringian Basin (Central and Northwest Germany) are already largely depopulated before the onset of the YD (per the above), it can be reasonably assumed that the same is true for Doggerland. With the end of the Younger Dryas, settlements such as Cramond, Scotland; Mount Sandel, Ireland; Howick House, England; Aero Island, Denmark; Skateholm and Alby, Sweden; Broom Hill, Kingsmead Quarry and Deepcar, England; Vaihinger and Langweiler sites, Germany as well as the Verlaine Site, Belgium all suggest small populations and again it can be reasonably assumed that the same would be true for Doggerland, post YD. Doggerland is an important part of the history of Northern Europe, but nothing currently suggests that it was any more important than the comtemporary areas around it.

I would think that the "the loss of bow-and-arrow technology" mentioned in the previous abstract would be a case, not of loss of technology, but of the local fauna changing migrational paterns. At least for a time. One would not expect such technology to be found in an area where the requisite fauna were no longer inhabiting, even for a geologically short duration, IMO.

cormac

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Considering that the Laacher See eruption and the Younger Dryas are pretty much contemporary, and as the area of the British Isles and Thuringian Basin (Central and Northwest Germany) are already largely depopulated before the onset of the YD (per the above), it can be reasonably assumed that the same is true for Doggerland. With the end of the Younger Dryas, settlements such as Cramond, Scotland; Mount Sandel, Ireland; Howick House, England; Aero Island, Denmark; Skateholm and Alby, Sweden; Broom Hill, Kingsmead Quarry and Deepcar, England; Vaihinger and Langweiler sites, Germany as well as the Verlaine Site, Belgium all suggest small populations and again it can be reasonably assumed that the same would be true for Doggerland, post YD. Doggerland is an important part of the history of Northern Europe, but nothing currently suggests that it was any more important than the comtemporary areas around it.

I would think that the "the loss of bow-and-arrow technology" mentioned in the previous abstract would be a case, not of loss of technology, but of the local fauna changing migrational paterns. At least for a time. One would not expect such technology to be found in an area where the requisite fauna were no longer inhabiting, even for a geologically short duration, IMO.

cormac

The low population is of course based on a low number of finds (tools, bones, settlements, and so on), but it is said that because Doggerland disappeared under water, much more may have been preserved because of everything being covered by sediment.

Its is also said that most of the areas you mentioned were the hunting grounds of the people living on Doggerland: they only went to these places to hunt during the summer months, when conditions were much more favorable. For the rest of the year these areas would be covered in ice and snow, while Doggerland would have been relatively free of all that, and so they would have retreated to that area, and lived there for the rest of the year. I think it would be really interesting to know what the influence of the Gulf Stream was on the climate in Doggerland, a large stretch of low lying lands.

Neverthelesss, you have a point here.

===

EDIT :

About that Gulf Stream and the population density of Doggerland, I remembered I had posted earlier in this thread about it, but instead of looking it up again for an hour or two (lol), I will re-post it again:

On more scientific grounds based entirely on the latest and proven research, some facts. The Scotsman had an article addressing this. It should be noted this was not opinion or speculation. (As some articles are.) It was based entirely on scientific findings of archeological research. Moreover, it was not what they expected to find. "The first people in Scotland after the Ice Age were Scandinavian." We know this fact because they were of the identical culture as found in Denmark, the lower Rhineland and were in Norway by 10,000 BC. They also arrived in Scotland before 12,000 BC.

They, the above people, had arrived from Doggerland at the end of the Ice Age. A vast and populated plain of what is now the shallow North Sea. It became submerged at the end of the Ice Age when the glaciers melted and the sea level rose. Graham Clark, the excavator of the Mesolithic site at Star Carr in Yorkshire, referring to the North Sea: "the submerged land had been the heartland of an early Mesolithic culture."

"Herds of reindeer and horses migrated across its vast plains." "Huge forests covered much of the countryside and men and women made their homes by rivers and lakes." It was, contrary to an earlier theory washed by the warm Gulf Stream. What are now most of Britain as well as most of Ireland, was, it is true, covered by glaciers. At the same time, the sea level was about 200 meters lower than today. As said the Gulf Stream hugged the coast of Doggerland. Because of this, the climate of northern and especially northwestern Europe was completely different than presumed. A short section will be devoted to The History of the Gulf Stream later, to answer any questions. Even a part of what is now western Denmark remained ice-free. Another area on the edge containing the same culture was a part of what in now Belgium. That area was inhabited throughout the last glacial maxim. Those areas mentioned would have been the (then) hills on the edge of this area, with the vast majority living on the plane below. It was cool but was no Antarctica. Because of the before mentioned Gulf Stream. When the glaciers melted and the sea level rose the people moved upland into Denmark, the Low Countries and Britain. This ignored reality destroys made-up academic theories, now proven wrong.

We now know this, from recent underwater surveys, showing remains of vast forests that this was no land of frozen tundra. At least, in the last glacial maxim. In addition, thousands of years before that. The model assuming it was an ice desert has been proven wrong. This is important; the area was far larger than the entire island of Britain today. This, Doggerland or Aldland (old land) of legend, was also the home of the people later called Germani; they are one and the same as the Ice Age survivors.

This is an exact quote, pay attention, please. This is in reference to Doggerland in the last glacial maxim. That is the last Ice Age. "This landscape is unique in that it was extensively populated by humans but was rapidly inundated during the Mesolithic as a consequence of rising sea levels as a result of rapid climate change." Another said, "the region now submerged below the North Sea had a coastline of lagoons, marshes, mudflats, and beaches. It was probably the richest hunting, fowling and fishing ground in all of Europe." We have another quote concerning this area. "Thousands of specimens, hundreds of tons of bones, have been recovered from the bottom of the North Sea, termed "Doggerland," and continue to be recovered."

This is based on a review by The International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. For those still insisting on disproven models, this can not be gotten around. That book is "Nautical Archaeology of Submarine Prehistoric Archaeology of the North Sea." This is not theory. It is proven fact. It is the result of 28 contributors from the United Kingdom, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, and Norway. "Particularly startling is Fischer's update on roughly 2300 submerged prehistoric sites now recorded on the Danish sea-floor." He suggested this might represent just a small percentage of the total number. (In that area alone.) There are other areas off the coast of England and Scotland also. These sites show that Paleolithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic people created settlements on the coastlines. Moreover, in all probability they were settled in the hinterlands of the central North Sea as well. (Shifting sand cause problems in surveying this area. But artifacts have been found there as well.) People lived there throughout the Ice Age. They did not arrive later. From Iberia, or elsewhere. This is the area known as Doggerland. Insisting as some do that the area was not suitable for habitation is disproven. In light of proven science, such statements show ignorance. Of a subject, they pretend to know about.

http://mickhartley.t...celtic_mor.html

Edited by Abramelin

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The low population is of course based on a low number of finds (tools, bones, settlements, and so on), but it is said that because Doggerland disappeared under water, much more may have been preserved because of everything being covered by sediment.

Its is also said that most of the areas you mentioned were the hunting grounds of the people living on Doggerland: they only went to these places to hunt during the summer months, when conditions were much more favorable. For the rest of the year these areas would be covered in ice and snow, while Doggerland would have been relatively free of all that, and so they would have retreated to that area, and lived there for the rest of the year. I think it would be really interesting to know what the influence of the Gulf Stream was on the climate in Doggerland, a large stretch of low lying lands.

I, for one, certainly would not dismiss the importance of the area known as Doggerland to the existance of early humans in Northern Europe. That said, speculation based upon "what might have been" which means it's currently unevidenced is just bad scientific methodology, IMO.

I'm holding out for much better evidence.

cormac

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I, for one, certainly would not dismiss the importance of the area known as Doggerland to the existance of early humans in Northern Europe. That said, speculation based upon "what might have been" which means it's currently unevidenced is just bad scientific methodology, IMO.

I'm holding out for much better evidence.

cormac

What might have been is based on what scientists say, and I have quoted these scientists from the beginning of this thread.

It is allowed to say what might have been, as nothing more than an idea, but it is indeed bad science if from what might have been you create an entire theory without any evidence to back it up.

Up to now (what I do) is nothing more than trying to put the pieces of a puzzle together, and the more pieces we have, the better we can solve the puzzle.

What I am suggesting here and there in this thread is not something totally impossible or unbelievable. I try to stay within the bounderies of reasonable assumptions.

But yeah, the best evidence will no doubt be found buried in the bottom of the North Sea, like the finds near Denmark.

And as long no extensive research takes place in the North Sea, all we can do is speculate what might have been.

But that alone is fun already, right?

And if no new extensive research takes place, I think I have gathered enough material here to write a nice 400 page novel called "Lacuna, the Land Beneath the Waves", lol.

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Alien Being announced the broadacst of a documentary on National Geographic, "Stone Age Atlantis".

I have not yet seen it here in Holland, but the complete documentary can be viewed online (90 minutes):

http://v.youku.com/v...Y1MTM5NjA0.html

Doggerlanders watching the tsunami on the horizon:

4448_stone-age-atlantis-13_05320299.jpg

A trailer of that documentary :

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/stone-age-atlantis-4448/Overview#tab-Videos/08046_00

Edited by Abramelin

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Alien Being announced the broadacst of a documentary on National Geographic, "Stone Age Atlantis".

I have not yet seen it here in Holland, but the complete documentary can be viewed online (90 minutes):

http://v.youku.com/v...Y1MTM5NjA0.html

Doggerlanders watching the tsunami on the horizon:

4448_stone-age-atlantis-13_05320299.jpg

A trailer of that documentary :

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/stone-age-atlantis-4448/Overview#tab-Videos/08046_00

I have watched it.

Dont bother folks its boring.

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I have watched it.

Dont bother folks its boring.

No, it was a beautifully made documentary about an ancient submerged land inhabited by hunter-gatherers.

But yeah, I knew you would find it boring because you obviously never read one post of this thread.

Doggerland is interesting when you are interested in pre-history, human migrations, genetics, geology, language, myths and so on.

Doggerland is not at all interesting when you have dreams about it being some sort of Atlantis the way Plato described it.

EDIT:

But don't worry, I found something very interesting:

Time Magazine Online, today, June 16, 2008, reports the ruins of an ancient stone wall which formed a huge oval enclosure, 3,000 feet by 1,000 feet in area, submerged 5 miles east of the island of Helgoland, which is 28 miles north from the german port of Husum on the North Sea coast. These ruins are of an ice age city, now on the seafloor, 5 miles from the nearest shoreline, in 30 feet of water, which was a low hill during the Ice Age, overlooking the mouth of the ice age Elbe River into the North Sea, far out from today’s shoreline, from when sea level was much lower, when much of the North Sea floor was dry land.

http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/north-sea-helgoland-germany-submerged-archaic-underwater-seafloor-continental-shelf-stone-block-walls-ruins-time-magazine-online-article-june-16-2008-reports-lutheran-pastor-jurgen-spanuth-port-husu/

Alas, I could not find the original article online, and I will bet that the truth was less spectacular than how it was described on that website.

Edited by Abramelin

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What I personally find interesting is what is said near the end of the documentary, that stone axes have been found on the socalled "Brown Bank" in the southern part of the present North Sea.

Apparently those axes were left there (=dropped overboard) long after Doggerland had disappeared, and because so many of those stone axes have been found, it is suggested that the people travelling the southern part of the North Sea did that intentionally, as a remembrence to their former homeland, or to a lost land that was still talked about in their stories and/or legends.

In this thread I have tried to post info that could point to these ancient legends about a lost land now lying at the bottom of the North Sea (Lochlann, Nehalennia, Hell, Fomorians, Tuatha De Danann, and so on).

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