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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

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I thought you read Jean Auel!! :rolleyes:

The whale could have been sick, the whale could have died and been washed ashore or it could have been pushed by a tsunami into a shallow area that they accessed with whatever means they used to float about on!! Maybe they "herded" the whales by injuring them and then forcing them to swim into a shallow area to be killed. Maybe there was a certain area there in the ocean that the whales got caught up in and were tossed ashore. Was there more than one set of bones? It doesn't necessarily mean that they "hunted" the whale out in the open ocean.

I've just been reading a bit about the Fomarians and it seems it's possible they are out of Africa or Asia being dark skinned and dark haired.

Irish mythology

The followers of Partholon were said to be the first to invade Ireland after the flood, but the Fomorians were already there: Seathrún Céitinn reports a tradition that the Fomorians, led by Cíocal, had arrived two hundred years earlier and lived on fish and fowl until Partholon came, bringing the plough and oxen. It is possible that this is a memory of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers giving way to Neolithic farmers.[8] Partholon defeated Cíocal in the Battle of Magh Ithe, but all his people later died of plague.(Q's ? - who lived to tell the tale then?)

Then came Nemed and his followers. Ireland is said to have been empty for thirty years following the death of Partholon's people, but Nemed and his followers encountered the Fomorians when they arrived. At this point Céitinn reports another tradition that the Fomorians were seafarers from Africa, descended from Noah's son Ham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

The point I am trying to make Abe, is that for them to be pirates, there had to be OTHERS who were also capable of ocean navigation in a meaningful way. Like in other words, something like a constant route that people followed for a specific purpose, so these "pirates" would know in advance that there was going to BE travel in that area and could challenge whatever traffic that was, for whatever it was they were carrying.

So WHO, 8000 years ago, had such regulated shipping lanes and what were they sailing in?

Edited by Qoais

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Although I am not a linguist, I asked her what "land near ice" is in her language... "maalähelläjää".... That sounded a lot like Nehalennia in my ears. The reason I asked her is that it is suggested that 10000 BC the people from England to the Baltic may have spoken some form of proto Finno-Ugric/Uralic. That combined with what a linguist (?) said about the name of the sea-goddess Nehalennia - it looked like a construction in Finnish - made me think that the name of the goddess may originally have been the name of the country she was goddess of.

A wild guess, of course, but Doggerland was even around 10000 BC not the frozen ice-covered tundra it was always thought it was; the surrounding countries, like Britain and Norway were (covered in ice sheets). So that made me think of a name, like 'land near ice'.

Do you believe the Bok Saga? "All the land was ice". Maybe the first people to Ireland WERE from Finland once the ice melted enough for them to get out. Maybe they made a "boat" from wrapping whale bones with hides and coating it with pitch/tar to make it leak proof. Whatever else the Bok Saga may be, it seems it is the truth, since the bones discovered in the cave where Ior Bok said the people lived for 75,000 years, were tested and proved to be that old.

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Cormac, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here, and no doubt that is based on the way I abuse the English language, lol. Or else it's just that I do not really understand your last post.

I will now do my best to tell you what I think MIGHT have happened, in short statements:

- Some 8000 years ago a people arrived in Ireland, coming from the north.

- The natives of Ireland created stories, myths and legends about these people, and these stories were being repeated for thousands of years.

- Much later these stories were put on paper/stone/whatever. The mythical land these people came from was called "Lochlann" (many different spellings in Irish and Welsh). Lochlann was a mythical land somewhere north/north-east of Ireland, and also a land below the waves.

- These mythical people were later called the "Tuatha De Danann"

- At 800 AD (??) the Vikings arrived in Ireland.

- They also came from the north of Ireland, in their ships.

- The people of Ireland of course asked them where they came from, and the Vikings said , "Skanda", "Scandinavia", "Norway", "Sweden", "Denmark" or whatever, hell knows what they said

- The monks who put the legends down on paper equated "Lochlann" with Scandinavia, just because the people of those ancient legends came from the same direction/country as the Vikings did.

But my idea is this: the ancient invaders could also have been the Fomorians. Well, they were not much of invaders, really, they were the first inhabitants of Ireland according to Keating (they were there centuries before the people of Partholan entered Ireland after 'the flood', and they looked different (dark complexion).

These Fomorians were seafarers/pirates.

I thought about answering what you thought MIGHT have happened, but couldn't see the point. Much of it is unevidenced. Remember what I said about a house-of-cards, because you have a multi-leveled one in the making. I do have to give you credit for creativity in filling in the gaps, though.

cormac

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Do you believe the Bok Saga? "All the land was ice". Maybe the first people to Ireland WERE from Finland once the ice melted enough for them to get out. Maybe they made a "boat" from wrapping whale bones with hides and coating it with pitch/tar to make it leak proof. Whatever else the Bok Saga may be, it seems it is the truth, since the bones discovered in the cave where Ior Bok said the people lived for 75,000 years, were tested and proved to be that old.

Where are the test results posted and were the bones determined to be Homo sapiens sapiens? If they were anything else, then they're irrelevant to the history of HSS.

cormac

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I'll have to see if I can find it in my files Cormac. I lost a lot of stuff when my other computer crashed and I haven't re-researched everything.

Here's a link that you might find of interest Abe. So - maybe they did have maneuverable dug out canoes or river craft that they managed to sail the ocean with.

http://bocksaga.de/kajani_project.htm

Not to be cheeky or anything, but I don't think applying labels like Homo Sapien and Homo Sapien Sapien, means much. "Human activity" is activity by humans, and even though evolution tries to explain that some branches of human that started to develop didn't make it, they don't know everything about every part of the world.

What if - and I don't mean to sound like a sci-fi novel here, but what if, before people developed a "speaking jaw" or a jaw that allowed them to make sounds, they could communicate mentally? It was once they started to speak and make all that noise, that they lost the ability to communicate mentally? It is said that if people are in isolation and are insulated from outside influence, lets say even to the deprivation of sound, that they will raise their consciousness and gain understanding of more than the 5 senses. Kind of what the Tibetan Lamas do. The Bok saga talks about the first sound system. Perhaps it was developed by the people raising their consciousness to a level where they intuited what "sounds" were for. Able to raise their consciousness because they lived in virtual isolation. In a cave that would insulate them against outer sounds, and for thousands of years, no outside contact with the rest of the world. Evolution cannot tell us if people were able to communicate mentally before, or not.

What I'm trying to say is, are you implying that Homo Sapien Sapien has the X on intelligence? How did Homo Sapien survive as long as he did, if he didn't have a means of communication? (I've forgotten off hand which of these "labels" developed the ability to speak as in the jaw affording the ability to speak) but how did the others survive if they had no communication skills? If they couldn't speak ---then ----what?

Edited by Qoais

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Don't know what happened there, it was my previous post, but in quotes!!

Edited by Qoais

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I thought you read Jean Auel!! rolleyes.gif

The whale could have been sick, the whale could have died and been washed ashore or it could have been pushed by a tsunami into a shallow area that they accessed with whatever means they used to float about on!! Maybe they "herded" the whales by injuring them and then forcing them to swim into a shallow area to be killed. Maybe there was a certain area there in the ocean that the whales got caught up in and were tossed ashore. Was there more than one set of bones? It doesn't necessarily mean that they "hunted" the whale out in the open ocean.

I've just been reading a bit about the Fomarians and it seems it's possible they are out of Africa or Asia being dark skinned and dark haired.

Irish mythology

The followers of Partholon were said to be the first to invade Ireland after the flood, but the Fomorians were already there: Seathrún Céitinn reports a tradition that the Fomorians, led by Cíocal, had arrived two hundred years earlier and lived on fish and fowl until Partholon came, bringing the plough and oxen. It is possible that this is a memory of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers giving way to Neolithic farmers.[8] Partholon defeated Cíocal in the Battle of Magh Ithe, but all his people later died of plague.(Q's ? - who lived to tell the tale then?)

Then came Nemed and his followers. Ireland is said to have been empty for thirty years following the death of Partholon's people, but Nemed and his followers encountered the Fomorians when they arrived. At this point Céitinn reports another tradition that the Fomorians were seafarers from Africa, descended from Noah's son Ham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

The point I am trying to make Abe, is that for them to be pirates, there had to be OTHERS who were also capable of ocean navigation in a meaningful way. Like in other words, something like a constant route that people followed for a specific purpose, so these "pirates" would know in advance that there was going to BE travel in that area and could challenge whatever traffic that was, for whatever it was they were carrying.

So WHO, 8000 years ago, had such regulated shipping lanes and what were they sailing in?

Whaling... did you ever see the big harpoons and hooks the Dutch and English fishermen dragged up from the bottom of the North Sea?? They were not meant for fishing cod, hello.

And yes, there were many bones from whales, and seals, and lots of other animals. These people were active hunters, not scavengers.

--

Yes, I know the story about the Fomorians coming from Africa.

But the most possible explanation is that they were the original, pre-Ice Age inhabitants of northern Europe.

And that means, long before the Indo-European invasions started.

And about sailing ancient routes... it is said that these Doggerlanders were seafarers. They lived in an area made up from hills, rivers, lakes and marshes, and of course..the sea. They must have lived from whatever they were able to catch from the sea and rivers; finds tell us that.

Edited by Abramelin

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I thought about answering what you thought MIGHT have happened, but couldn't see the point. Much of it is unevidenced. Remember what I said about a house-of-cards, because you have a multi-leveled one in the making. I do have to give you credit for creativity in filling in the gaps, though.

cormac

I try to fill in the gaps with what is reasonably possible considering what is known about the peoples living back then.

Yes, much of what I posted here is nothing but possibilities with no evidence to back it up at all.

A house-of-cards.......hmmmm............ yeah, but made of flexible cards that can withstand a breeze.

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All I am trying to do is create an image of what these Doggerlanders could have accomplished, what they may have believed in, what language they spoke, and so on.

As long as I don't introduce bug-eyed aliens, or some ancient super-civilization, or Annunaki, or Yahweh, or other crap, I think I am moving on the safe side.

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I try to fill in the gaps with what is reasonably possible considering what is known about the peoples living back then.

Yes, much of what I posted here is nothing but possibilities with no evidence to back it up at all.

A house-of-cards.......hmmmm............ yeah, but made of flexible cards that can withstand a breeze.

Just do me a favor and don't stand under it when it collapses. OK? I don't want to have to break in your replacement. :lol:

cormac

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Hello Abramelin,

I was reading an article in[Tech-Archive.net]titled The Lost World:Doggerland,it was writen byJack Linthicum july9/08.In the article he states:

Britieh site known as Bouldner Cliff in the Solent the strech of water seperating the Isle of Wright found remains of a wooden dwelling,tools,wood chippings and part of a log boat.

Gary Momber,director of the Hampshire and Wright Maritme Trust for Martime Archeology in South Hampton believes Boulder Cliff may have been a boat building site which is significant because it was far from the coast and so the boats would have been used only on local lakes.

The article goes on to discribe other sites in Britany where long term habitation occured,there was some testing done on diet btween to location where there were remains found.They determined that at one location they had consumed a steady diet of fish and that these people were likely not following game.The other location the diet was concidered to have be a mix of wild meat and fish and that these people were more transient.jmccr8

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Whaling... did you ever see the big harpoons and hooks the Dutch and English fishermen dragged up from the bottom of the North Sea?? They were not meant for fishing cod, hello.

No I haven't. I saw a picture of one artifact that was supposed to be a harpoon tip.

What does a whale do if it gets a major injury somewhere? Does it still dive or does it stay on top so as not to get salt in the wound? Does the salt water heal it faster? Does it get separated from it's pod while it heals or whatever?

Edited by Qoais

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I'll have to see if I can find it in my files Cormac. I lost a lot of stuff when my other computer crashed and I haven't re-researched everything.

Here's a link that you might find of interest Abe. So - maybe they did have maneuverable dug out canoes or river craft that they managed to sail the ocean with.

http://bocksaga.de/kajani_project.htm

Not to be cheeky or anything, but I don't think applying labels like Homo Sapien and Homo Sapien Sapien, means much. "Human activity" is activity by humans, and even though evolution tries to explain that some branches of human that started to develop didn't make it, they don't know everything about every part of the world.

What if - and I don't mean to sound like a sci-fi novel here, but what if, before people developed a "speaking jaw" or a jaw that allowed them to make sounds, they could communicate mentally? It was once they started to speak and make all that noise, that they lost the ability to communicate mentally? It is said that if people are in isolation and are insulated from outside influence, lets say even to the deprivation of sound, that they will raise their consciousness and gain understanding of more than the 5 senses. Kind of what the Tibetan Lamas do. The Bok saga talks about the first sound system. Perhaps it was developed by the people raising their consciousness to a level where they intuited what "sounds" were for. Able to raise their consciousness because they lived in virtual isolation. In a cave that would insulate them against outer sounds, and for thousands of years, no outside contact with the rest of the world. Evolution cannot tell us if people were able to communicate mentally before, or not.

What I'm trying to say is, are you implying that Homo Sapien Sapien has the X on intelligence? How did Homo Sapien survive as long as he did, if he didn't have a means of communication? (I've forgotten off hand which of these "labels" developed the ability to speak as in the jaw affording the ability to speak) but how did the others survive if they had no communication skills? If they couldn't speak ---then ----what?

Considering that the Bock Saga doesn't appear to be detailing the history of any line other than HSS, then yes it does mean much. And as genetic evidence suggests that the earliest that HSS moved out of Africa was c.70,000 BP then any line dating from 75,000 BP would be called into question. Obviously HSS was intelligent enough to succeed where his sister lines failed. Also, it's not the jaw that affords the ability to speak, but the hyoid bone, which IIRC dates as far back as c.60,000 BP.

cormac

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No I haven't. I saw a picture of one artifact that was supposed to be a harpoon tip.

What does a whale do if it gets a major injury somewhere? Does it still dive or does it stay on top so as not to get salt in the wound? Does the salt water heal it faster? Does it get separated from it's pod while it heals or whatever?

454151a-i2.0.jpg

A sketch of the Mesolithic harpoon point (21 cm/8 inches) found in the North Sea by the Colinda in 1931.

M. BURKITT & G. NORRIE

What does a whale do when it get's harpooned?? What you think? Do sit-ups and beg for cookies??

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Hello Abramelin,

I was reading an article in[Tech-Archive.net]titled The Lost World:Doggerland,it was writen byJack Linthicum july9/08.In the article he states:

Britieh site known as Bouldner Cliff in the Solent the strech of water seperating the Isle of Wright found remains of a wooden dwelling,tools,wood chippings and part of a log boat.

Gary Momber,director of the Hampshire and Wright Maritme Trust for Martime Archeology in South Hampton believes Boulder Cliff may have been a boat building site which is significant because it was far from the coast and so the boats would have been used only on local lakes.

The article goes on to discribe other sites in Britany where long term habitation occured,there was some testing done on diet btween to location where there were remains found.They determined that at one location they had consumed a steady diet of fish and that these people were likely not following game.The other location the diet was concidered to have be a mix of wild meat and fish and that these people were more transient.jmccr8

Yes, and I think I posted a video of what they found near the Isle of Wight.

But I am not sure about the log boat; it may have been thousands of years younger than anything connected with Doggerland.

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Just do me a favor and don't stand under it when it collapses. OK? I don't want to have to break in your replacement. laugh.gif

cormac

Heh, it's cards, man, CARDS.

No one gets hurt when this house of cards collapses.

If all I said here appears to be wrong, bad luck.

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Do you believe the Bok Saga? "All the land was ice". Maybe the first people to Ireland WERE from Finland once the ice melted enough for them to get out. Maybe they made a "boat" from wrapping whale bones with hides and coating it with pitch/tar to make it leak proof. Whatever else the Bok Saga may be, it seems it is the truth, since the bones discovered in the cave where Ior Bok said the people lived for 75,000 years, were tested and proved to be that old.

I believe as much in the Bok Saga as I believe in the Oera Linda Bo(o)k.

no.gif

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Heh, it's cards, man, CARDS.

No one gets hurt when this house of cards collapses.

If all I said here appears to be wrong, bad luck.

Hey, stranger things have happened, especially if one has a drink in their hands. :D

cormac

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I know I'm a slow learner and all, but it seems to me that until it's proven that people had ocean going vessels of some kind, one can hardly call people "pirates" from 8000 years ago, if they didn't have ocean going vessels. In another thread there was a post about dug out logs that were capable of being used in the ocean, although I think they must have been really hard to steer. Mostly, I think, dug out canoes were used for rivers and lakes. I've always said that I don't agree with the time lines science puts on some things, and perhaps the ocean going vessel is one of those things. In another forum, I had a snotty little brat say to me "Well, duh - it's only common sense people had ships 10,000 years ago because they settled on islands"!

In Irish mythology, the Fomoiri or Fomoire, sometimes anglicised to Fomorians[1] (later in Middle Irish also, Fomóraig), were a semi-divine race who inhabited Ireland in ancient times. They may have once been believed to be the beings who preceded the gods, similar to the Greek Titans. It has been suggested[who?] that they represent the gods of chaos and wild nature, as opposed to the Tuatha Dé Danann who represent the gods of human civilization. Alternatively, they may represent the gods of a proposed pre-Goidelic population of Ireland.

Etymology

The etymology of the name Fomoire (plural) has been cause for some debate. Medieval Irish scholars thought the name contained the element muire "sea", owing to their reputation as sea pirates.[2] In 1888, John Rhys was the first to suggest that it is an Old Irish word composed of fo "under/below" and muire "sea", concluding that it may refer to beings whose (original) habitat is under the sea.[3] Observing two instances of the early genitive form fomra, Kuno Meyer arrives at the same etymology, but takes it to refer to land by the sea.[4] Whitley Stokes and Rudolf Thurneysen, on the other hand, prefer to connect the second element *mor with a supposed Old English cognate mara "mare" (which survives today in the English word night-mare).[5][6] Building on these hypotheses, Marie-Louise Sjoestedt interprets the combination of fo and the root *mor as a compound meaning "inferior" or "latent demons".[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

Sorry in advance for swearing - but when I was researching the Atlantis thing, one of my first questions was - what is a god and what can it do? The second question was - Where did the gods come from?

If the "gods" were just a way to explain natural phenomenon, how is it then, that people are gods? Are we to assume that these gods were on the earth in those days, performing these feats of nature so that man was held in awe of these creatures?

What I'm trying to say is, there really were NO gods. So if the first people on Ireland came from somewhere in the North, they were people, humans. Right? Unless of course, one wants to concede that "aliens" visited here. tongue.gif So surely their lineage could be traced here on earth, with all our scientific technology. What about the DNA testing?

Heh, I know this is becoming a long thread, but of course did I post about the etymology of the name "Fomor".

Fomorians.jpg

And about those boats: just the fact that these people hunted whales means they must have had boats. But the Inuit nowadays also hunt (grey) whales, and we all know how their 'boats' look like...

Humans as Gods? Its just people who do things in a way other people don't understand, in a way those other people think of as magic.

Edited by Abramelin

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Hello Abramelin,

I went back and looked at the article,is says that attachment to the land,ritual practices and sedimentism are usually associated with later neolithic people.I am somewhat of a novice with this type of research as I am not as proficient with the use of the computer and my area of learning has been in a completely different area.So it is almost like learning a new language as well,every subject has a discriptive language that is unique to itself and I am trying to learn so please bear with me.

By the way I would think that a wounded whale would do a lot of blubbering.jmccr8

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Hello Abramelin,

I went back and looked at the article,is says that attachment to the land,ritual practices and sedimentism are usually associated with later neolithic people.I am somewhat of a novice with this type of research as I am not as proficient with the use of the computer and my area of learning has been in a completely different area.So it is almost like learning a new language as well,every subject has a discriptive language that is unique to itself and I am trying to learn so please bear with me.

By the way I would think that a wounded whale would do a lot of blubbering.jmccr8

Yes Jmmccr5, later neolithic, that's what I thought.

LOL, it's ok J, we all learn here. Anyway, you did find something on topic, but alas, it's several millennia off.

And of couse, yes, the whale will fight to escape till it dies.

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About the possibilty that the people of Doggerland practised avtive whaling.... there is even proof that in a much earlier period (the Magdalenian), people hunted whales:

http://leherensuge.b...t-harpoons.html

http://anthrositeblo...uritz-cave.html

I made a comparison with the way present day Inuit hunt whales, and it appears (see links) that the Inuit nowadays use almost the exact same harpoons as the people did during the Magdalenian.

Inuit whale hunters paddle an umiak made from wood and seal skins :

library_002_lg.jpg

When I see this boat, I wonder how much of it would be saved after 10,000 years. Wood, ok, but skin??

Swede said about the next site that it wasn't made by a paleontologist, but just by an artist. Anyway, I think it's still very much worth the trouble to read:

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-seagoingskinboats.html

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Hah, yes, that's my own site, and I have been talking with a woman from Finland overthere. She had some thoughts about the genetics and culture and religion of Doggerland, based on her knowledge of the (pre-)history of Finland.

Although I am not a linguist, I asked her what "land near ice" is in her language... "maalähelläjää".... That sounded a lot like Nehalennia in my ears. The reason I asked her is that it is suggested that 10000 BC the people from England to the Baltic may have spoken some form of proto Finno-Ugric/Uralic. That combined with what a linguist (?) said about the name of the sea-goddess Nehalennia - it looked like a construction in Finnish - made me think that the name of the goddess may originally have been the name of the country she was goddess of.

A wild guess, of course, but Doggerland was even around 10000 BC not the frozen ice-covered tundra it was always thought it was; the surrounding countries, like Britain and Norway were (covered in ice sheets). So that made me think of a name, like 'land near ice'.

And I know present day Finnish must be very different from that ancient language, so there is a big chance this it completely wrong.

Funny... what would have been a most appropriate name for Doggerland a couple of thousand years after the end of the ice age? Well, something like "low land"(s)"... heh, and in Finnish that would be "Alankomaat", which is also the Finnish name for "the Netherlands" (which also means nothing more or less than 'low lands')

Now don't worry, we Dutch are not going to claim Doggerland. tongue.gif

The site I linked to in my former post is great: http://www.paabo.ca/...gskinboats.html

This guy has some ideas about the spread of the socalled boat people around the Arctic, and also about the spread of the Finno-Ugric / Uralic language. And please also read what he has to say about the Picts...

Alas, it appears he never heard of Doggerland.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yes Jmmccr5, later neolithic, that's what I thought.

LOL, it's ok J, we all learn here. Anyway, you did find something on topic, but alas, it's several millennia off.

And of couse, yes, the whale will fight to escape till it dies.

I just thought maybe they had a method whereby they injured the thing and then kept hounding it until it was exhausted. I read about a couple of whales that had been hurt quite badly by what appeared to be propeller blades and the vet was saying that if they could get the whales back out into the ocean instead of being sidetracked in the bay where they were, they would heal. Just thinking that if the ancient whale hunters could create a wound, they could also "circle the wagons" (boats) and keep the thing within a given area until it was so tired, they could close in for the kill.

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I just thought maybe they had a method whereby they injured the thing and then kept hounding it until it was exhausted. I read about a couple of whales that had been hurt quite badly by what appeared to be propeller blades and the vet was saying that if they could get the whales back out into the ocean instead of being sidetracked in the bay where they were, they would heal. Just thinking that if the ancient whale hunters could create a wound, they could also "circle the wagons" (boats) and keep the thing within a given area until it was so tired, they could close in for the kill.

Yes, that could maybe work for the smaller whales and dolphins (see Faroe islands), but I think there's proof that they actually hunted big whales, like the present day Inuit do.

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