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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

No, I am not leaving that out, but it cannot be part of the core of any myth, right?

The core of nothing is nothing, I got that long ago, thank, you , lol.

I just think if any myth was created, then it changed so much that it is hard to use it to pinpoint in the direction of anything Doggerland.

You must not forget that Doggerland didn't just sink quite fast over the millennia by rising sea levels and isostatic rebound, it actually got flushed by a huge tsunami. Things legends are made of, wouldn't you say so too?

I never claimed it could be the part of the core of a myth, just that it was as valid a possibility as that of any hypothesized myth.

Myths and legends are, by and large, created by a sizeable population of people over extended periods of time. Currently there is no evidence of a sizeable population of people inhabiting Doggerland for an extended period of time and more specifically, during the time of the Storegga Slide. At best, we can surmise that there were groups of hunter-gatherers following animal migrations and only settling in an area for a brief period of time. It's just as likely that anyone living there during the Storegga Slide was eliminated with much of the area and that nothing was passed down in myth and legend.

cormac

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I never claimed it could be the part of the core of a myth, just that it was as valid a possibility as that of any hypothesized myth.

Myths and legends are, by and large, created by a sizeable population of people over extended periods of time. Currently there is no evidence of a sizeable population of people inhabiting Doggerland for an extended period of time and more specifically, during the time of the Storegga Slide. At best, we can surmise that there were groups of hunter-gatherers following animal migrations and only settling in an area for a brief period of time. It's just as likely that anyone living there during the Storegga Slide was eliminated with much of the area and that nothing was passed down in myth and legend.

cormac

No, you are wrong: there were many people living there, and that just by the many finds of tools on the bottom of the North Sea, and by it's very hospitable topography.

The idea that there were not many people living in Doggerland is based on nothing but it being a frozen tundra. Now they know it wasn't anything like that at all. It was surrounded by countries that were cold and barren during winter months, yes, but not Doggerland.

Now imagine this: we live happily at Doggerland. Then we go hunt seals in Scotland during winter time. We return to where we grew up, Doggerland, and all we find is mud and sea and debry.

What would you think we feel? We will be sad because our families that stayed behind are gone, drowned. Eventually we talk to other people who watched what happened when we were away, they tell us of a giant wave that whiped the country clean, taking everybody and everything with it.

Don't you think that would be incorporated in new legends??

You also seem to underestimate oral culture. Well, I know elders (in the Amazon basin) who do their utter best to tell the youngsters about their experiences, and they repeat what they know untill those youngsters are able to repeat what they said exactly. They test them, and they will go on repeating their accounts and stories untill these youngsters know it by heart. They use songs, words, symbols, and even drugs, and they don't give up easily.

We westerners have no idea about oral culture, we now all depend on what we read in books, newspapers and on the internet, watch on tv, and so on.

Things were very much different back then.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I'd suggest Sumeria was the result of interaction between all races of the time but it was probably the flooding of the black sea and the start of the Ubaid period that led to the height of sumerian culture.

Evidence would suggest otherwise, as the flooding of the Black Sea appears to have happened c.7400 BC and was of a more moderate nature. As Tell al-Ubaid and the culture named after it date from c.2000 years after the event (circa 5300 BC) and are located in Southern Mesopotamia, there is no evidence of a connection between the Black Sea and the Ubaidians/Sumerians.

That's because, according to the new study, the Black Sea's pre-flood water levels were significantly higher than Ryan's study suggested. As a result, there may have been much less water cascading through the Bosporus and onto the exposed continental shelf surrounding the Black Sea.

The ages of the shell fossils detailed in Giosan's report hint that the pre-flood sea surface was only 95 feet (30 meters) lower than it is today. Columbia's Ryan, by contrast, suggests the Black Sea's rise has been at least 150 feet (50 meters) since reconnecting with the Mediterranean some 9,400 years ago.

Source

Does it help if I tell you the closest meaning is 'bear'?

Not really, as the bear was a totemic animal amongst many cultures. The word “berserk” appears to originate with this idea.

Robin Hood on the other hand was a legend that grew out of the green man tradition that was practised by a large group of druids in Sherwood forest.

There are many in England, professional and laymen alike, who would disagree with that. But you should already know that.

cormac

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No, you are wrong: there were many people living there…

And your evidence would be what? Hunter-gatherers usually exist is small enough groups to ensure their mobility, should the need to move at a moments notice arise.

The idea that there were not many people living in Doggerland is based on nothing but it being a frozen tundra.

You’re assuming I’m basing this on an outdated position. I’m not. I’m basing this on lack of evidence that there was a sizeable population located in Doggerland. “Because there were people there” doesn’t automatically equate to them having a large population or having left myths and legends about Doggerland’s destruction.

We return to where we grew up, Doggerland, and all we find is mud and sea and debry.

You’re assuming that Doggerland wasn’t completely covered by water at this point. The jury is still out.

You also seem to underestimate oral culture.

Not really. But just to ask, how many legends told by those elders have lasted several thousand years?

cormac

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Evidence would suggest otherwise, as the flooding of the Black Sea appears to have happened c.7400 BC and was of a more moderate nature. As Tell al-Ubaid and the culture named after it date from c.2000 years after the event (circa 5300 BC) and are located in Southern Mesopotamia, there is no evidence of a connection between the Black Sea and the Ubaidians/Sumerians.

Source

Not really, as the bear was a totemic animal amongst many cultures. The word “berserk” appears to originate with this idea.

There are many in England, professional and laymen alike, who would disagree with that. But you should already know that.

cormac

Well professional and laymen alike are not readily gonna admit, if indeed they know, the truth about Britains mysterious heritage. It goes back pretty far with even the name allegedly coming from the Trojan, Brutus. There is the Tuatha deDannan and Merlin. We know that druidism was a continent wide theology stretching as far as the Balkans. The Haethen religion also contains a lot of mysteries that could have parrallels with other cultural myths. Odin being one eyed and the Asgard tree and all that is fairly original but there are commonalities.

I was actually thinking of the bear in regards to a couple of things. They are connected to the mysteries so feel to discount them immdeiately. The bear is the Pleaides as linked sailing, farming and now I am thinking bloodlines. It also has connections to the Goddess Artemis, who I identify with Innana. Arthur - Artemis? One I read the other day that I like was Excalibur and Calabria as in the monks who helped found the original Oredr of Sion. You see it is always worth thinking about or thinking as an initiate would.

As I said I will have to support my point about the Black sea but I see connections in burial practices of chieftans, perhaps. Then again burial practices are fairly uniform globally. I.e. bury the kings in tombs with possessions. This was done in Dilmun if not Sumeria. The other theory is that bronze age metal work began mucg=h earlier around the Black sea and into Anatolia and it was the Dragon kings who wore armour of green tinged bronze. They would then being the conquerors of Sumeria and hence where we get myths about dragons and serpents. It is only one theory I am considering by the way.

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Well professional and laymen alike are not readily gonna admit, if indeed they know, the truth about Britains mysterious heritage. It goes back pretty far with even the name allegedly coming from the Trojan, Brutus. There is the Tuatha deDannan and Merlin. We know that druidism was a continent wide theology stretching as far as the Balkans. The Haethen religion also contains a lot of mysteries that could have parrallels with other cultural myths. Odin being one eyed and the Asgard tree and all that is fairly original but there are commonalities.

I was actually thinking of the bear in regards to a couple of things. They are connected to the mysteries so feel to discount them immdeiately. The bear is the Pleaides as linked sailing, farming and now I am thinking bloodlines. It also has connections to the Goddess Artemis, who I identify with Innana. Arthur - Artemis? One I read the other day that I like was Excalibur and Calabria as in the monks who helped found the original Oredr of Sion. You see it is always worth thinking about or thinking as an initiate would.

As I said I will have to support my point about the Black sea but I see connections in burial practices of chieftans, perhaps. Then again burial practices are fairly uniform globally. I.e. bury the kings in tombs with possessions. This was done in Dilmun if not Sumeria. The other theory is that bronze age metal work began mucg=h earlier around the Black sea and into Anatolia and it was the Dragon kings who wore armour of green tinged bronze. They would then being the conquerors of Sumeria and hence where we get myths about dragons and serpents. It is only one theory I am considering by the way.

I think we're at an impasse here, Slim. I don't put much stock in mystical/metaphysical connections or comparative mythology. I see it all as seeing what one wishes to see.

cormac

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-1- And your evidence would be what? Hunter-gatherers usually exist is small enough groups to ensure their mobility, should the need to move at a moments notice arise.

-2- You're assuming I'm basing this on an outdated position. I'm not. I'm basing this on lack of evidence that there was a sizeable population located in Doggerland. "Because there were people there" doesn't automatically equate to them having a large population or having left myths and legends about Doggerland's destruction.

-3- You're assuming that Doggerland wasn't completely covered by water at this point. The jury is still out.

-4- Not really. But just to ask, how many legends told by those elders have lasted several thousand years?

cormac

-1- Evidence is in the number of tools they left; there were many. Another thing is not a real evidence, it's just that the land was the most hospitable land in the north of Europe after the end of the last ice age, and contrary towhat was always assumed before.

-2- True, no real evidence if you desire to forget about what was found. There were people there, yeah, many people as is being claimed by scientists. But what is many, eh?

-3- Doggerland, or Dogger Bank, or Dogger Island, may have suffered much from the tsunami, but it is likely that it didn't submerge right after the tsunami. The tsunami did them in, but still, Dogger Island may have been above sea level long after that. But maybe just as a mud bank or a barren area.

-4- Read what I posted about the Lenapi and the Aboriginals.

And you are asking me now what I have been asking since the start of this thread: where are those legends that tell us about Doggerland??

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I think we're at an impasse here, Slim. I don't put much stock in mystical/metaphysical connections or comparative mythology. I see it all as seeing what one wishes to see.

cormac

Fair enough Cormac. I was thinking about doing a thread on the validity of the mystery schools as an area of genuine study. What d'ya reckon? See we know they did exist, they are historical fact, the question is if they were anything more than a way of passing the time for old men or if they had a more important and secret purpose. Let me know if you think it a good idea as it is only worth doing if there is participation from both sides.

Mysteries that could be Doggerland:

Avalon - doubtful, more likely Anglessey

Lochlain - I like this one

Atlantis - Woot woot dunno

Hyperborea - definitely a possibility

Ragnarok - I think so but it is an awful long time ago to have lasted but if the myth is strong enough then why not

What are the myths of Finland? That's where I would set up home if I was a Dogger refugee

What's the Lenapi myth? Could that have any connection are you thinking if so what?

Edited by SlimJim22

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Mysteries that could be Doggerland:

Avalon - doubtful, more likely Anglessey

Lochlain - I like this one

Atlantis - Woot woot dunno

Hyperborea - definitely a possibility

Ragnarok - I think so but it is an awful long time ago to have lasted but if the myth is strong enough then why not

What are the myths of Finland? That's where I would set up home if I was a Dogger refugee

What's the Lenapi myth? Could that have any connection are you thinking if so what?

Avalon may point to a now submerged area near Land's End, Cornwall: the Scilly Islands. It is known they were once joined into a larger island.

Lochlan....land of lakes, yep, it's my favorite.

Atlantis... nah, Doggerland wasn't anything like what Plato described.

Hyperborea.. true, it might be a possibility. Might..

Ragnarok... from what I have read online, it appears to point to what happened around 1500 BC in Europe, not 6100 BC and earlier.

Myths from Finland... you mean the Kalevala ?? Dunno, I have never read it.

And why do you think the refugees from Doggerland would travel all the way to Finland? I think it's more likely that they fled to the most nearby countries first. But yes, they could eventually have ended up in Finland.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I forgot to asnwer you abbout the Lenape myth, the Walam Olum:

I meantioned the Lenapi myth (Walam Olum) in connection with what I said about oral culture, but not because it has any relationship with Doggerland. Btw, some say it was a hoax, others say it could be authentic.

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Fair enough Cormac. I was thinking about doing a thread on the validity of the mystery schools as an area of genuine study. What d'ya reckon? See we know they did exist, they are historical fact, the question is if they were anything more than a way of passing the time for old men or if they had a more important and secret purpose. Let me know if you think it a good idea as it is only worth doing if there is participation from both sides.

Mysteries that could be Doggerland:

Avalon - doubtful, more likely Anglessey

Lochlain - I like this one

Atlantis - Woot woot dunno

Hyperborea - definitely a possibility

Ragnarok - I think so but it is an awful long time ago to have lasted but if the myth is strong enough then why not

What are the myths of Finland? That's where I would set up home if I was a Dogger refugee

What's the Lenapi myth? Could that have any connection are you thinking if so what?

That's entirely up to you. Chances are, I won't be joining the conversation. A combination of "an old boys club" along with possibly obscure local religious rituals or observances is one thing, but a bunch of mystical/metaphysical hoodoo extending over many millenia and many cultures is just too much for me to swallow.

cormac

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I forgot to asnwer you abbout the Lenape myth, the Walam Olum:

I meantioned the Lenapi myth (Walam Olum) in connection with what I said about oral culture, but not because it has any relationship with Doggerland. Btw, some say it was a hoax, others say it could be authentic.

Abe - You are correct that Rafinesque's construct, the Walam Olum has been discounted. See below. Regular contributor piney, who is Lenape, holds the "work" in less than high esteem!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walam_Olum

.

Edited by Swede

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Abe - Just an addendum in regards to the "survivability"/accuracy of oral traditions. The following two papers, while approaching the topic from different perspectives, are very well composed and reach similar conclusions. Hope you can find a way to access them.

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.

"Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record in Deep Time"

American Antiquity, Vol.65, No. 2. (April 2000) pp. 267-290

Mason, Ronald

"Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions"

American Antiquity, Vol.65, No.2 (April 2000), pp. 239-266

.

Edited by Swede

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Abe - You are correct that Rafinesque's construct, the Walam Olum has been discounted. See below. Regular contributor piney, who is Lenape, holds the "work" in less than high esteem!

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Walam_Olum

.

But I also know not all agree with it being nothing but a hoax:

http://www.newagefra...php?topic=848.0

.... and the scroll down till you see the posts of a E.P. Grondine.

Edited by Abramelin

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Abe - Just an addendum in regards to the "survivability"/accuracy of oral traditions. The following two papers, while approaching the topic from different perspectives, are very well composed and reach similar conclusions. Hope you can find a way to access them.

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.

"Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record in Deep Time"

American Antiquity, Vol.65, No. 2. (April 2000) pp. 267-290

Mason, Ronald

"Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions"

American Antiquity, Vol.65, No.2 (April 2000), pp. 239-266

.

Thanks Swede.

I found something about this Echo-Hawk:

Ancient history in the New World : Integrating oral traditions and the archaeological record in deep time = Histoire ancienne dans le Mouveau Monde : Intégration des traditions orales et des données archéologiques des temps anciens

Auteur(s) / Author(s)

ECHO-HAWK R. C. (1) ;

Oral traditions provide a viable source of information about historical settings dating back far in time-a fact that has gained increasing recognition in North America, although archaeologists and other scholars typically give minimal attention to this data. The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) lists oral traditions as a source of evidence that must be considered by museum and federal agency officials in making findings of cultural affiliation between ancient and modern Native American communities. This paper sets forth the NAGPRA standards and presents an analytical framework under which scholars can proceed with evaluation of historicity in verbal records of the ancient past. The author focuses on an Arikara narrative and argues that it presents a summary of human history in the New World from initial settlement up to the founding of the Arikara homeland in North Dakota Oral records and the archaeological record describe a shared past and should be viewed as natural partners in post-NAGPRA America. In conceptual terms, scholarship on the past should revisit the bibliocentric assumptions of prehistory, and pursue, instead, the study of ancient American history -an approach that treats oral documents as respectable siblings of written documents.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1557457

Found something else too:

http://nativehistory.tripod.com/id15.html

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Yeah I'm probably off on Finland, don't they share genes with the mongoloid race or something? I was only going on it being full of lakes and that they would have wanted a similar habitat. That is a pretty weak argument now I think about it.

Humberside or norfolk would be a thought but I can't remember the name of the tribe that was based around St Albans and the east coast. I'll try and come up with a name. If they were a coastal people it makes sense they would want to stay in the vicinity rather than move inland too much but you never know.

I like Hyperborea as a myth but according to Velikovsky it was the comet as I mentioned before. He also calculated a 3,600 year orbit so you could be looking at 1,600 and then 5,200. That is just as an example and I admit that it is farfetched but it underlines the possibility of a recurring event. The fire and gravel, flooding, even the ten plagues could, with a bit of imagination lead to the possibility of a comet. Pindar is the main witer on Hyperborea and I haven't read much but I think he was from Thrace which may have introduced northen myths into the mythology. What I hold onto, in terms of oral traditions is shamanism. The evidence is there to suggest there is a connection between all shamanic culture and with just a bit more imagination I conclude that major cataclysmic events may be engrained on the collective unconscious or even as genetic memory. Pretty crazy when you think about it but it is not inconcievable that through oral traditions, combined with shamanic practices the memories could be preserved and elaborated on into myth. Serpents could even correspind to the tail of a comet. It might be worth reading a little Velikovsky and see if anything jumps out.

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Thanks Swede.

I found something about this Echo-Hawk:

Ancient history in the New World : Integrating oral traditions and the archaeological record in deep time = Histoire ancienne dans le Mouveau Monde : Intégration des traditions orales et des données archéologiques des temps anciens

Auteur(s) / Author(s)

ECHO-HAWK R. C. (1) ;

Oral traditions provide a viable source of information about historical settings dating back far in time-a fact that has gained increasing recognition in North America, although archaeologists and other scholars typically give minimal attention to this data. The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) lists oral traditions as a source of evidence that must be considered by museum and federal agency officials in making findings of cultural affiliation between ancient and modern Native American communities. This paper sets forth the NAGPRA standards and presents an analytical framework under which scholars can proceed with evaluation of historicity in verbal records of the ancient past. The author focuses on an Arikara narrative and argues that it presents a summary of human history in the New World from initial settlement up to the founding of the Arikara homeland in North Dakota Oral records and the archaeological record describe a shared past and should be viewed as natural partners in post-NAGPRA America. In conceptual terms, scholarship on the past should revisit the bibliocentric assumptions of prehistory, and pursue, instead, the study of ancient American history -an approach that treats oral documents as respectable siblings of written documents.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1557457

Found something else too:

http://nativehistory.tripod.com/id15.html

Abe - I hope we're not leading your topic astray, but heck, it is your project, so just let me know if we are going too far afield!

Regarding Grondine's comments, I am rather unsure as to his point. I am familiar with his citations and actually have some of them in my library. I find his connection to the Oneota culture to be somewhat flawed. The Oneota culture arose circa 1,000-1,200 AD in the upper Mississippi River drainage, with the earliest sites being in Wisconsin and extreme eastern Minnesota. This culture was a blend of Late Woodland peoples and Middle Mississippian influences. The culture lasted until early Euro (French) contact in the latter 1600's. It would also appear that at least some elements of the Oneota culture were of the Chiwere/Siouan and Siouan language groups. This is in contrast to the Algonquin language group of the Lenape. When one combines the above with time period/geographical distribution of the Lenape, I am at a loss to grasp his contentions.

The nativehistory site, while "interesting", may not be considered to be terribly accurate from the technical end. There are numerous inaccuracies that result from such factors as citing Cremo & Thompson, Deloria, etc.

As to Echo-Hawk - It would be most helpful if you could access the entire paper, as the abstract does not do the work justice. While Echo-Hawk does advocate for the understanding and utilization of oral traditions in archaeological interpretation, he is also quite realistic about the inherent flaws in oral traditions and lays out some quite succinct analytical criteria in this regard. To quote;

"My principle of memorability predicts that the transmission of historical oral traditions over long periods of time will inevitably introduce changes to texts involving one or more of the following factors: 1)elisions, omissions, or conflations will most likely serve to enhance the entertainment value or memorable quality of historical information; 2) the most memorable elements of a historical narrative may be emphasized at the expense of complex, detailed data; 3) data and stories that are viewed as important documents may incorporate elements that begin as speculative interpretation and end up as elements that enhance the entertainment value and color of the data/story; 4) only those historical stories that are seen as inherently valuable texts and display elements making the texts more memorable will survive long transmission periods; and 5) information about the ancient past will more likely persist if it is encrusted with nonhistorical cultural meanings and narrative elements that are specific to transmitting societies". (Echo-Hawk:272-273)

"Scholars must stand their ground, however, when they are urged to accept origin stories as literal history. The intellectual legacy of academic scholarship requires that every presumption of historicity be subjected to critical examination no matter how much it may anchor any specific cultural pattern". (Echo-Hawk:287).

A complete read of this paper along with Mason's somewhat more critical analysis may provide a useful platform from which to evaluate various legends, tales and oral traditions, and I think that you would find them to be most interesting.

.

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Abe - I hope we're not leading your topic astray, but heck, it is your project, so just let me know if we are going too far afield!

Regarding Grondine's comments, I am rather unsure as to his point. I am familiar with his citations and actually have some of them in my library. I find his connection to the Oneota culture to be somewhat flawed. The Oneota culture arose circa 1,000-1,200 AD in the upper Mississippi River drainage, with the earliest sites being in Wisconsin and extreme eastern Minnesota. This culture was a blend of Late Woodland peoples and Middle Mississippian influences. The culture lasted until early Euro (French) contact in the latter 1600's. It would also appear that at least some elements of the Oneota culture were of the Chiwere/Siouan and Siouan language groups. This is in contrast to the Algonquin language group of the Lenape. When one combines the above with time period/geographical distribution of the Lenape, I am at a loss to grasp his contentions.

The nativehistory site, while "interesting", may not be considered to be terribly accurate from the technical end. There are numerous inaccuracies that result from such factors as citing Cremo & Thompson, Deloria, etc.

As to Echo-Hawk - It would be most helpful if you could access the entire paper, as the abstract does not do the work justice. While Echo-Hawk does advocate for the understanding and utilization of oral traditions in archaeological interpretation, he is also quite realistic about the inherent flaws in oral traditions and lays out some quite succinct analytical criteria in this regard. To quote;

"My principle of memorability predicts that the transmission of historical oral traditions over long periods of time will inevitably introduce changes to texts involving one or more of the following factors: 1)elisions, omissions, or conflations will most likely serve to enhance the entertainment value or memorable quality of historical information; 2) the most memorable elements of a historical narrative may be emphasized at the expense of complex, detailed data; 3) data and stories that are viewed as important documents may incorporate elements that begin as speculative interpretation and end up as elements that enhance the entertainment value and color of the data/story; 4) only those historical stories that are seen as inherently valuable texts and display elements making the texts more memorable will survive long transmission periods; and 5) information about the ancient past will more likely persist if it is encrusted with nonhistorical cultural meanings and narrative elements that are specific to transmitting societies". (Echo-Hawk:272-273)

"Scholars must stand their ground, however, when they are urged to accept origin stories as literal history. The intellectual legacy of academic scholarship requires that every presumption of historicity be subjected to critical examination no matter how much it may anchor any specific cultural pattern". (Echo-Hawk:287).

A complete read of this paper along with Mason's somewhat more critical analysis may provide a useful platform from which to evaluate various legends, tales and oral traditions, and I think that you would find them to be most interesting.

.

Well, this is about oral traditions, Swede, and how well - or not - they are able to preserve facts.

I still think that every myth has a core of truth of actual facts, but that through time things get embellished, exaggerated, and even mixed with other, and maybe later legends of other people arriving in the area. And I guess from your quote of Echo-Hawk's paper, he agrees with what I said for a large part.

And no, I didn't find his paper online.

Btw, I don't want to delve too deep into the Walam Olum, but it dererves it's own thread.

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Yeah I'm probably off on Finland, don't they share genes with the mongoloid race or something? I was only going on it being full of lakes and that they would have wanted a similar habitat. That is a pretty weak argument now I think about it.

Humberside or norfolk would be a thought but I can't remember the name of the tribe that was based around St Albans and the east coast. I'll try and come up with a name. If they were a coastal people it makes sense they would want to stay in the vicinity rather than move inland too much but you never know.

I like Hyperborea as a myth but according to Velikovsky it was the comet as I mentioned before. He also calculated a 3,600 year orbit so you could be looking at 1,600 and then 5,200. That is just as an example and I admit that it is farfetched but it underlines the possibility of a recurring event. The fire and gravel, flooding, even the ten plagues could, with a bit of imagination lead to the possibility of a comet. Pindar is the main witer on Hyperborea and I haven't read much but I think he was from Thrace which may have introduced northen myths into the mythology. What I hold onto, in terms of oral traditions is shamanism. The evidence is there to suggest there is a connection between all shamanic culture and with just a bit more imagination I conclude that major cataclysmic events may be engrained on the collective unconscious or even as genetic memory. Pretty crazy when you think about it but it is not inconcievable that through oral traditions, combined with shamanic practices the memories could be preserved and elaborated on into myth. Serpents could even correspind to the tail of a comet. It might be worth reading a little Velikovsky and see if anything jumps out.

Jim, I really don't want to go too much into genetics (of the Saami and Fins in this case) because I know too little about it.

The tribe living in Norfolk was probably the Iceni, but they must have been much more recent arrivals:

Norfolk was settled in pre-Roman times, with neolithic camps along the higher land in the west where flints could be quarried. A Brythonic tribe, the Iceni, inhabited the county from the first century BC, to the end of the first century (AD). The Iceni revolted against the Roman invasion in 47 AD, and again in 60 AD led by Boudica. The crushing of the second rebellion opened the county to the Romans. During the Roman era roads and ports were constructed throughout the county and farming took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk

And maybe it's a better idea to look into the myths Velikovsky and Donnelly used for their theories than to use their interpretations of these legends. They based their interpretations on what was known around the time they wrote their books, and we know a lot more now.

Hyperborea appears to be more like a mythical land north of the polar circle because of it being characterized by having daylight 24/7 for much of the year.

Edited by Abramelin

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Jim, I really don't want to go too much into genetics (of the Saami and Fins in this case) because I know too little about it.

The tribe living in Norfolk was probably the Iceni, but they must have been much more recent arrivals:

Norfolk was settled in pre-Roman times, with neolithic camps along the higher land in the west where flints could be quarried. A Brythonic tribe, the Iceni, inhabited the county from the first century BC, to the end of the first century (AD). The Iceni revolted against the Roman invasion in 47 AD, and again in 60 AD led by Boudica. The crushing of the second rebellion opened the county to the Romans. During the Roman era roads and ports were constructed throughout the county and farming took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk

And maybe it's a better idea to look into the myths Velikovsky and Donnelly used for their theories than to use their interpretations of these legends. They based their interpretations on what was known around the time they wrote their books, and we know a lot more now.

Hyperborea appears to be more like a mythical land north of the polar circle because of it being characterized by having daylight 24/7 for much of the year.

Agreed on all counts. Boudica and Iceni, them be the ones. Cheers! There is a great deal of info on the catastrophism link so I'll check through. So much depends on what can be found in the archeological record to support anything from myth. If a comet is to blame then it may well have looked different depending on the latitude. Maybe it looked more like a spiral or suastika in the northern hemisphere but more like a tree or serpent the further south they went. Obviosuly that is just wild speculation but I'm thinking that for such large events as Black sea creation for example, some fairly large stimulus or additional variable would be required. I just can't see tectonic shifts being solely to blame but I will probably be told otherwise.

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Agreed on all counts. Boudica and Iceni, them be the ones. Cheers! There is a great deal of info on the catastrophism link so I'll check through. So much depends on what can be found in the archeological record to support anything from myth. If a comet is to blame then it may well have looked different depending on the latitude. Maybe it looked more like a spiral or suastika in the northern hemisphere but more like a tree or serpent the further south they went. Obviosuly that is just wild speculation but I'm thinking that for such large events as Black sea creation for example, some fairly large stimulus or additional variable would be required. I just can't see tectonic shifts being solely to blame but I will probably be told otherwise.

The next picture is a comet outgassing sideways while revolving around its axis, plus its usual tail:

Comet_spiral.gif

If it was impressive enough to be viewed the world over, then it must have been a huge appearence in the heavens back then, and I assume it must have looked like concentric circles or spirals with a tail from center to far past the spirals/circles. And that image would be more or less the same all over the earth.

But from what I found online, most of the rock-art depicting concentric circles/spirals/circular labyrinths is from around the North Sea, mainly Britain, Scotland, Ireland and Wales (and also Norway).

If a comet with all that visual spectacle did indeed plunge somewhere in what is now the North Sea, 6100 BC or earlier, together with all the disaster that followed it, you'd expect this image to be imprinted in the memory of those people who witnessed it, and yes, maybe even incorporated in shamanic ceremonies.

mh_weetwood_moor_pic1.jpg

All we now have to do is find evidence of such a comet hitting the earth in prehistory or else we are just having a nice phantasy here.

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The way I imagine it is not a direct collision but a near passage and the gravity between the two causes meteorites that could have rained down and caused chaos but the actual body remains in its orbit but maybe loses some mass on each passage. Maybe there are even smaller asteroids in orbit around the main body that get pulled down to Earth. Then there is any electric relationship between Earth and the comet. If they had opposite charges would they have been attracted and would there have been a great deal of lightning and stuff. I have a colourful imagination clearly but there are so many mad things in myth that make me thing hang on are they serious.

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The way I imagine it is not a direct collision but a near passage and the gravity between the two causes meteorites that could have rained down and caused chaos but the actual body remains in its orbit but maybe loses some mass on each passage. Maybe there are even smaller asteroids in orbit around the main body that get pulled down to Earth. Then there is any electric relationship between Earth and the comet. If they had opposite charges would they have been attracted and would there have been a great deal of lightning and stuff. I have a colourful imagination clearly but there are so many mad things in myth that make me thing hang on are they serious.

The impression I get when watching these rock carvings is that someone went completely nuts, and kept carving untill his drug-indused buzz ran out, or that many people felt they had to repeat the same carving depicting concentric circles, or that someone saw a multidtude of these comets in the skies. Some actually depict a (comet-) spiral, accompanied by simple holes, maybe those smaller asteriods you mentioned.

Google 'rock-art' together with 'circles'.

Check this picture:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Tsx6RfRE4f8/SaA29VS05xI/AAAAAAAACEI/SbyWNSd1iOI/s1600-h/northumbrian%20rock%20art%20rockshelter%20floor%20at%20ketley%20crag%5B1%5D.jpg

The cup and ring marks you see in the photographs are between 7.000 and 5,000 years old. They were probably carved by Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and early Neolithic farmers.

The meaning of these mysterious symbols is lost in the deep past. We have no way of knowing why they were carved and the significance of the designs and motifs is irretrievable, enigmatic and puzzling. Theories and conjectures abound, but the truth is permanently elusive.

Whatever their original purpose, what is clear is the power of these carvings in the landscape. Many are set on high ground overlooking river valleys, carved into exposed rock outcrops in what must have been significant vantage points.

The repeating patterns of concentric circles make for a striking artform. Looking at these carvings in situ you have the strongest sense that the circle is somehow deeply embedded within human psyche and culture.

http://davesdistrictblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/landscapes-of-meaning-northumbrian.html

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Maybe we need a Jungian psycho-analyst here, but I think it's quite interesting that circular labyrinths, called 'Troy Towns' in England - looking very similar to earlier depictings of these concentric circles with a 'tail' - always deal with death in the center.

And not only in England, also in the Baltic, in America (the Hopi) and , as we all know, in Greece (Minotaurus/Theseus/Ariadne).

The general idea is this: you follow the spiral path, and eventually you end up in the center, which is death or the afterlife or the 'other world'.

To make it more clear: the centre would be the comet itself, like I said before. The comet that (may have) hit earth. specifically the North Sea. The spirals/concentric circles would have been a spectacle for maybe months, months before the comet hit earth.

These circular labyrinths were created long after those cup-and-circle rock patterns were carved out in rock.

No doubt the original meaning was lost over time, but the main feature was this: a depiction of death and destruction, death at the center (the comet itself).

If I drink another bottle, I will come up with even more spaced-out ideas, LOL.

I know Cormac hates this, but I would not mind if he - or anyone else - clubs this fantasy to smithereens

If not, beware, hahaha !!

.

Edited by Abramelin

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