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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

Most definitely. When I was in uni, I didn't know why but all I ever doodled was spirals and the odd pyramid. It was only a couple of years later that I got into researching spirals, shamanism and all that but it was all very much connected for me.

Those pictures are awesome. It really does look like some kind of celestial drama being played out. Because we, as a society have not witnessed such an event it is hard to picture how it could happen or what the effects could be. The images looked like objects creating ripples in space or the aether. They would probably have mini atmospheres of their own consisting of dust and gas and I assume they would have a frozen core but being exerting immense heat. Crazy stuff but nice find.

The one thing we do know is that it didn't wipe us out. We have never experienced a mass extinction to our knowledge so best to assume that it causes mass disturbances, some areas hit harder than others and it could change the geography in a short time. This kinda sounds like a non religious reason behind Exodus not too mention all the flood myths.

The other thing I am thinking is that in a strange kind of way the event might actually raise consciousness a notch. It would literally feel like the rapture or something for the people involved and under such intense circumstances I bet the brain would do strange things. The combination of all the new EMF and all could allow for altered states, maybe this is another reason for the spiral in our consciousness and why so many mysteries relate to rebirth like the Phoenix or the Winged Sun disk. Serpents aswell maybe but is it possible that shamnism and the mystery schools had all these symbols but they didn't know anymore than we do what they meant. Only that they were the symbols passed down through oral traditions and shamnic experience.

I hope this is not derailing the thread but the location and frequency of the spirals would hint at a doggerland connection. New grange and Stonehenge being started sometime after supports the idea that consciousness was on the rise but impossible to prove that it wasn't a natural evolution of consciousness resulting from productivity and farming. I'm spent.

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Most definitely. When I was in uni, I didn't know why but all I ever doodled was spirals and the odd pyramid. It was only a couple of years later that I got into researching spirals, shamanism and all that but it was all very much connected for me.

Those pictures are awesome. It really does look like some kind of celestial drama being played out. Because we, as a society have not witnessed such an event it is hard to picture how it could happen or what the effects could be. The images looked like objects creating ripples in space or the aether. They would probably have mini atmospheres of their own consisting of dust and gas and I assume they would have a frozen core but being exerting immense heat. Crazy stuff but nice find.

The one thing we do know is that it didn't wipe us out. We have never experienced a mass extinction to our knowledge so best to assume that it causes mass disturbances, some areas hit harder than others and it could change the geography in a short time. This kinda sounds like a non religious reason behind Exodus not too mention all the flood myths.

The other thing I am thinking is that in a strange kind of way the event might actually raise consciousness a notch. It would literally feel like the rapture or something for the people involved and under such intense circumstances I bet the brain would do strange things. The combination of all the new EMF and all could allow for altered states, maybe this is another reason for the spiral in our consciousness and why so many mysteries relate to rebirth like the Phoenix or the Winged Sun disk. Serpents aswell maybe but is it possible that shamnism and the mystery schools had all these symbols but they didn't know anymore than we do what they meant. Only that they were the symbols passed down through oral traditions and shamnic experience.

I hope this is not derailing the thread but the location and frequency of the spirals would hint at a doggerland connection. New grange and Stonehenge being started sometime after supports the idea that consciousness was on the rise but impossible to prove that it wasn't a natural evolution of consciousness resulting from productivity and farming. I'm spent.

> What is 'uni'??

> It didn't whipe all of our ancestors out, but it maybe have whiped out the people living on Doggerland.

> It sure must have raised 'consciousness' : watch out for the skies. Hence those astronomical alignments.

Scientists say they were meant to predict seasons, time to plant and sow and all that. Why would farmers need that, eh? My own father was the son of a farmer. My father and his father were socalled 'simple' people, no formal education at all or just meager education, but they were not crazy people: they knew how to watch the signs of nature to know when to plant and to sow. They didn't need megalithic structures built with stones weiging 10 tons or more, jeesh. And my grandpa was almost illiterate, he couldn't read a calendar if he wanted to, LOL.

These scientific theories about megalithic alignments are put forward by Ivory Castle city slickers with no knowledge of nature whatsoever.

Nah, my idea is that they wanted to be able to predict when s*** was about to happen again. And those late arrivals, the 'farmers', heard the stories from the hunter-gatherers, but did not really understand what the hell they were talking about, but became scared enough anyway.

The stories were apparently impressive enough to force these farmers to create structures like Stonehenge, Seahenge, and similar structures in Germany (their layout looks a lot like these rock carvings; see my earlier posts).

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I have lived with these 'hunter-gatherers' for months in the Amazon basin (near Iquitos, Peru)

Let me tell you: yeah, they have weird beliefs, yeah, they think the spirits cause them harm when they dont act according to what they think the spirits want..

But hey, for the rest, if I should ever want to travel through the Amazon jungle again (and having the money to do that), I will choose for these guys. They really KNOW what they are talking about.

And they don't need huge circles of stones to tell them when to do what.

EDIT:

Just for the record: they treated me like I was a king, but also like I was nothing but a toddler.

Meaning: they knew I had knowlegde they hadn't, but they also knew I behaved like a baby. Well, that is what they told me, using their 100 words of Castilliano (=Spanish for you morons).

The women, even the younger ones, loved me for my blue eyes.

OK, I am getting off topic.

Edited by Abramelin

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What is 'uni'??

Short for "university". Don't worry, you'll get used to British terminologies and slang after awhile.

cormac

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Short for "university". Don't worry, you'll get used to British terminologies and slang after awhile.

cormac

I aasumed I was used to British terminologies, living next door as a Dutch guy, but I had never heard of 'unis'.

What is your opinion about what was said before??

That is what I want to know....

I do know you hate ideas based on nothing but assumptions, but my assumptions are based on finds, not dreams like Sitchin's or Von Daniken's, ok?

Hmm...ok, maybe the comet thing is a bit off, but I think my ideas about that are quite original. Up to now no one had any idea what those petroglyphs were all about.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I aasumed I was used to British terminologies, living next door as a Dutch guy, but I had never heard of 'unis'.

What is your opinion about what was said before??

That is what I want to know....

I do know you hate ideas based on nothing but assumptions, but my assumptions are based on finds, not dreams like Sitchin's or Von Daniken's, ok?

Hmm...ok, maybe the comet thing is a bit off, but I think my ideas about that are quite original. Up to now no one had any idea what those petroglyphs were all about.

.

It's not the speculating, based on the facts, I have a problem with. It's the multiple levels of speculating I don't agree with. For me, it's an open invitation for reality to smack one in the side of the head. If I was truly interested in going that deep, I'd write a sci-fi novel. That way, I wouldn't have to worry about reality, and it pays better.

As to your multiple circles/circular patterns, it's at least a possibility. Here is another possibility. Maybe the patterns you are talking about have nothing to do with comets whatsoever and was someone's early interpretation of volcanic debris being flung through the air. Have you ever thought of that. There was a sizeable volcano within relatively close distance and period of time to doggerland to have possibly de-stabilized the Storegga Slide area causing it, eventually, to give way and decimate Doggerland. This volcano was in Grímsvötn, Iceland and was of a VEI 6 level. The dating for it is c.8230 +/- 50 BC. Not saying that that's what happened, but it has the potential of having had more of an effect on Doggerland than an unfound and unverified impactor.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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It's not the speculating, based on the facts, I have a problem with. It's the multiple levels of speculating I don't agree with. For me, it's an open invitation for reality to smack one in the side of the head. If I was truly interested in going that deep, I'd write a sci-fi novel. That way, I wouldn't have to worry about reality, and it pays better.

As to your multiple circles/circular patterns, it's at least a possibility. Here is another possibility. Maybe the patterns you are talking about have nothing to do with comets whatsoever and was someone's early interpretation of volcanic debris being flung through the air. Have you ever thought of that. There was a sizeable volcano within relatively close distance and period of time to doggerland to have possibly de-stabilized the Storegga Slide area causing it, eventually, to give way and decimate Doggerland. This volcano was in Grímsvötn, Iceland and was of a VEI 6 level. The dating for it is c.8230 +/- 50 BC. Not saying that that's what happened, but it has the potential of having had more of an effect on Doggerland than an unfound and unverified impactor.

cormac

I am speculating as long as no new finds show up.

This is NOT sci-fi, this is nothing but speculations based on found artifacts. What is the sci-fi part of all this according to you?

Of course I do realize the circular patterns may have nothing to do with some comet appearing in the skies.

Do you have a better idea??

Now you come up with an eruption of a volcano erupting 2000 years before 6100 BC..... hmmm. You ever heard of the Duppacher Weiher eruption, around 6200 BC??

That means you do have imagination, but also that you just don't agree wit what *I* imagined.

And that eruption doesn't explain those petroglyphs at all.

But I think you knew that already.

Edited by Abramelin

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You ever heard of the Duppacher Weiher eruption, around 6200 BC??

I think your dating is off.

West Eifel Volcanic Field

Country: Germany

Subregion Name: Germany

Volcano Number: 0100-01-

Volcano Type: Maars

Volcano Status: Radiocarbon

Last Known Eruption: 8300 BC ± 300 years

Summit Elevation: 600 m 1,968 feet

Latitude: 50.17°N* 50°10'0"N

Longitude: 6.85°E 6°51'0"E

Source 1

and

West Eifel Volcanic Field

Start Date: 8300 BC ± 300 years Stop Date: Unknown

Dating Technique: Radiocarbon (uncorrected) Eruptive Characteristics:

Area of Activity: Strohn, Pulvermaar Central vent eruption

Explosive eruption

Start Date: 8740 BC ± 150 years Stop Date: Unknown

Dating Technique: Radiocarbon (corrected) Eruptive Characteristics:

Area of Activity: Ulmener Maar Central vent eruption

Explosive eruption

Source 2

So based on the above information, these eruptions are contemporary, or nearly so, with the one in Grímsvötn, Iceland. Do you know what the Duppacher Weiher eruption measured on the Volcanic Explosivity Index?

And that eruption doesn't explain those petroglyphs at all.

Assuming that you have definitive, verifiable evidence to back up that claim, then why did you ask my opinion? Otherwise, it’s not any more unlikely than your speculations.

cormac

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I think your dating is off.

Source 1

and

Source 2

So based on the above information, these eruptions are contemporary, or nearly so, with the one in Grímsvötn, Iceland. Do you know what the Duppacher Weiher eruption measured on the Volcanic Explosivity Index?

http://en.wikipedia....noes_in_Germany

Assuming that you have definitive, verifiable evidence to back up that claim, then why did you ask my opinion? Otherwise, it's not any more unlikely than your speculations.

cormac

The Duppacher Weiher eruption was not at the time you think it was, it erupted around 6200 BC.

Do YOU know what the Duppacher eruption was on the volcanic eruptions scale??

--

Why I ask your opinion?? Well, I have an idea about why people created those petroglyphs, and you come up with something different:

Maybe the patterns you are talking about have nothing to do with comets whatsoever and was someone's early interpretation of volcanic debris being flung through the air. Have you ever thought of that. There was a sizeable volcano within relatively close distance and period of time to doggerland to have possibly de-stabilized the Storegga Slide area causing it, eventually, to give way and decimate Doggerland. This volcano was in Grímsvötn, Iceland and was of a VEI 6 level. The dating for it is c.8230 +/- 50 BC. Not saying that that's what happened, but it has the potential of having had more of an effect on Doggerland than an unfound and unverified impactor.

Be honest, what I posted about the comets comes a lot closer to those petroglyphs than what your volcano might have produced. I even posted an animation of how the Hale-Bop comet looked like, as seen through a telescope: CIRCLES.

hale%20bopp%20spiral.gif

And all I said was that that comet must have been a lot larger - and closer - than the Hale-Bopp comet.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The Duppacher Weiher eruption was not at the time you posted:

Based on what? Those dates are from the Smithsonian Institute. If you have evidence of newer dates, I’d like to read about it.

Do YOU know what the Duppacher eruption was on the scale??

No, which is why I asked you. If it’s of a VEI 5 or less, then its direct impact is meaningless to the disappearance of Doggerland.

Well, I have an idea about why people created those petroglyphs, and you come up with something different:

But that’s not what you said, your answer, “And that eruption doesn't explain those petroglyphs at all” I took as written. A statement of fact. Hence, my assumption that you have definitive, verifiable evidence to back up that claim.

Be honest, what I posted about the comets comes a lot closer to those petroglyphs than what your volcano might have produced. I even posted an animation of how the Hale-Bop comet looked like, as seen through a telescope: CIRCLES.

It’s irrelevant what Hale-Bopp looked like as there were no telescopes for anyone to use during the time of Doggerland. And I do believe what I posted has just as much merit as your comet explaination, barring any evidence to the contrary.

cormac

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Based on what? Those dates are from the Smithsonian Institute. If you have evidence of newer dates, I'd like to read about it.

No, which is why I asked you. If it's of a VEI 5 or less, then its direct impact is meaningless to the disappearance of Doggerland.

But that's not what you said, your answer, "And that eruption doesn't explain those petroglyphs at all" I took as written. A statement of fact. Hence, my assumption that you have definitive, verifiable evidence to back up that claim.

It's irrelevant what Hale-Bopp looked like as there were no telescopes for anyone to use during the time of Doggerland. And I do believe what I posted has just as much merit as your comet explaination, barring any evidence to the contrary.

cormac

Yeah, I didn't get the date from a scientific paper, and now I know I must have confused it with the date of an early eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in the 7th millenium BC.

But in the next links they say its 7000 +/- 1000 years, lol. A nice big margin..

http://www.search.com/reference/List_of_volcanoes_in_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volcanoes_in_Germany

Oh, and I never suggested any erupting volcano may have caused Doggerland to submerge or something. The reason I started talking about the Laacher See eruption 13,000 years ago, was just because of the effect of its ash: if I have to believe what was said, then people had to move far away from that area because all the food (plants/animals) and water was spoiled.

So my guess was - and again nothing more than that - that people fled into the direction of Doggerland.

=

I still think that a spiralling comet appearing in the night skies (and maybe even followed by an impact in the North Sea) should have been an impressive and scary sight. But of course, then it must have been much closer to the earth than Hale-Bopp ever was. And that is what I said in a former post: IF such a comet appeared, then it must have been huge or very close to earth to be visible with the naked eye.

I only mentioned Hale-Bopp because it actually created spirals; to be honest, I had never heard of that or spiralling comets in general.

Now back to your idea that the petroglyphs could as well have been inspired by a volcanic eruption. Can you explain how that would create concentric circles or spirals in the sky, and visible in many countries?

I posted the Hale-Bopp comet just to show that such spiralling comets exist, and I also posted a scientific paper explaining the how and why of such comets. Do you have a photo of an erupting volcano giving rise to the same visual effect??

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But in the next links they say its 7000 +/- 1000 years, lol. A nice big margin.

Considering that there is no information in those links as to how those dates were determined, but the ones from the Smithsonian show they were carbon dated, I’ll go with the Smithsonian’s.

Volcanic Bombs come in many sizes and, while in flight, can take on many of these spiral shapes. Clouds forming around the cone of volcanoes have been known to take on the appearance of concentric circles. Ejecta hitting the water, much like a drop of water on a calm pond, can produce a series of concentric circles.

The following link is to a picture of a large Volcanic Bomb. While travelling through the air end over end, ejecting extremely hot bits of itself, it would have taken on the appearance of a flying spiral.

From Clear Lake, California

cormac

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Posted (edited)

-1- Considering that there is no information in those links as to how those dates were determined, but the ones from the Smithsonian show they were carbon dated, I'll go with the Smithsonian's.

-2- Volcanic Bombs come in many sizes and, while in flight, can take on many of these spiral shapes. Clouds forming around the cone of volcanoes have been known to take on the appearance of concentric circles. Ejecta hitting the water, much like a drop of water on a calm pond, can produce a series of concentric circles.

-3- The following link is to a picture of a large Volcanic Bomb. While travelling through the air end over end, ejecting extremely hot bits of itself, it would have taken on the appearance of a flying spiral.

From Clear Lake, California

cormac

-1- Yes, I already said I was wrong; I had confused dates and volcanos.

-2- My question is, could the spiral shapes created by volcanic bombs be visible 1000's of miles away (if we consider an Icelandic volcano and petroglyphs as far away as Norway and Scotland, and even France/Brittany) and could they be visible in their total shape, not just part of it?

And concentric circles coming from the cone of the volcano itself would only be visible completely for someone flying over that volcano.

Ejecta hitting water would of course create circles, but would that sight be special/spectacular/impressive enough for people to want to depict that effect on stone, over and over again?

--3- Cormac, I have tried to find a photo or image showing me those spiral shapes created by volanic bombs, but failed to find any.

And what explanation do you have for those socalled 'cup-and-circle' petroglyphs, petroglyphs ("rock-art") that show concentric circles with a straight line from center to the circumference? Many look like that.

EDIT:

I think the only volcanic spiral cloud, or volcanic cloud made up of concentric circles, and completely visible from far away, would be one that is vertical:

Volcano_spiral.jpg

That would indeed be spectacular, but I have never seen any photo showing that kind of volcanic cloud.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

The reason I started about these 'cup-and-circle' petroglyphs is because I noticed that Scotland, England, and Ireland appear to be flooded with these symbols. They also show up on other places on earth, like Australia and North America, but much less frequent.

They are said to date from the Neolitic or the Bronze age, but that is solely based on the megalithic structures erected nearby; no one has a real idea about their true age.

There are several suggestions as to what they could symbolize/mean:

-1- drug induced/shamanic symbols. Some here will know that concentric circles and spirals can be seen in ones field of vision during 'certain'' states. For those who don't have that experience... think the other way round: a famous hypnotic tool is a revolving spiral.

Here is a site that talks about the shamanic meaning of these symbols:

http://dreamflesh.co...says/shamanism/

http://dreamflesh.com/essays/rockform/

-2- directions, settlements, in short: a land map. Together with the cup marks, these symbols could symbolize certain sacred places (the ones with the concentric circles) like wells adjoined by holes - towns? - the 'cup marks'

-3- I once read about it being comets seen in the sky. That is why I started a search, and ended up with this nice fantasy it could have been depictions of revolving comets outgassing sideways, creating spirals and/or concentric circles in the night sky.

That alone would have been a spectacular view, but if it was connected with an impact (here: into the North Sea, causing the Storegga Slide, and the subsequent flooding of Doggerland / no proof at all, just an idea), then it would have been imprinted onto the memories of the people living back then.

-4- Cormac suggested these cup-and-circle petroglyphs or concentric circles/spirals could have been caused by people viewing a volcanic eruption that created these things (either by concentric circles of ash around the cone, or by the volcanic bombs ejecting from the volcano. But that very probably implies the volcano responsible for the heavenly spectacle had to be nearby where people started carving the spectacle in rock. Icelandic volcanos are too far away, and so I think if what Cormac says did indeed happen, then it must have been a volcano on the European mainland.

What I saw as a telling coincidence is, that ancient (earthen, wooden and stone) henges in Britain, Ireland, and Germany have a layout like many of these petroglyphs: concentric circles with a straight line cutting through the rings, from the center (the 'cup') to the outer ring.

Well, I wasn't the first to think of that:

It is noticeable that Henges create a similar design as the cup-and-ring marks found engraved on the megaliths themselves. Nowhere is this more clear than at Tara Hill in Ireland (above), where a stone inside the mound of the hostages has a set of markings on it which shows a close resemblance to the layout of the earth-works at Tara.

http://www.ancient-w...dlandscapes.htm

http://www.ancient-w...o.uk/henges.htm

mh_weetwood_moor_pic1.jpg

A wooden henge from Germany:

Goseck_circle_15.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

OK, I will tell you something.....

This place, nah, this forum of this site, is supposed to be about "Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History".

Now I have done my utter best to tell you about something, some place, some country, that got submerged at around 6100 BC or earlier.

Aside from a couple of people who have brains and posted here, the rest of you think this topic is boring.......... because there is no talk about flying saucers, pyramids, amazing technology, aliens, "Annunaki" (Sitchins baby, and nothing to back it up with) and so on.

If you want to choose to live in fairy land, be my guest.

But if you have ANY desire to think, compare, research, and have a critical mind, ... then start posting in this thread.

This Doggerland, this was a real submerged country. No Plato, No Annunaki, No Aztecs, no one ever knew it existed.

This was a country only SCIENCE knew about.

No 'channeling' religoius nut, or drug addict ever hear aout it.

--

Heh, I need imput of more people; geologists, linguists, archeologists, geneticists, historians.

Come on people, wake up.

This is not dreamland, this is the real thing.

Use your fcking brains.

Edited by Abramelin

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Couldn't agree more Abe. I'd like to go to Elfheim over fairy land though, I'd settle with seeing Tara.

I think it is an interesting topic because it is total fact. There is no fiction involved here as we know when and where Doggerland was. There spirals, cups and balls are all enough to say that something heavy went down but some scientific support would be good.

Around that time we may have sea rises but it seems like something seismic or celestial occurred, for a whole country to fall into the sea is such a massive event. Erosion happens but over time and never on this scale. What are the geological expalantions behind it?

To spend the time toengrave those spirals it must have been impotant to the people doing it. Or was it somekind of compeition: who carved the best spiral got the most fertile bride is it?

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Couldn't agree more Abe. I'd like to go to Elfheim over fairy land though, I'd settle with seeing Tara.

I think it is an interesting topic because it is total fact. There is no fiction involved here as we know when and where Doggerland was. There spirals, cups and balls are all enough to say that something heavy went down but some scientific support would be good.

Around that time we may have sea rises but it seems like something seismic or celestial occurred, for a whole country to fall into the sea is such a massive event. Erosion happens but over time and never on this scale. What are the geological expalantions behind it?

To spend the time to engrave those spirals it must have been important to the people doing it. Or was it somekind of competition: who carved the best spiral got the most fertile bride is it?

The geological explanations behind it?? Man, I have mentioned the Storegga Slide ad nauseum.

It was a submarine slide of a large part of the sea floor, the size of Iceland, west of Norway. Geologists (working for oil companies) say it was caused by it being unstable, and that it happened several times.

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-2- My question is, could the spiral shapes created by volcanic bombs be visible 1000's of miles away (if we consider an Icelandic volcano and petroglyphs as far away as Norway and Scotland, and even France/Brittany) and could they be visible in their total shape, not just part of it?

A counter question would be, why would the spiral shapes have to be seen from thousands of miles away? Much like different forms of pottery or flint knapping, the designs could just as well have been copied from place to place. AFAIK, there is no definitive evidence that such designs originated in any one specific place. Some versions could have been seen and copied from the Iceland volcano, others from the (nearly) contemporary Duppacher Weiher eruption. There is nothing to suggest it has to be an either/or proposition.

And concentric circles coming from the cone of the volcano itself would only be visible completely for someone flying over that volcano.

Not really, the pictures at these links wouldn't necessarily have to be seen from overhead:

Link 1

Link 2

Picture in frame here:

Link 3

I couldn’t find any pictures of volcanic bombs in flight, either, with is understandable. That’s the last place anyone in their right mind would want to be, in the middle of a volcanic bombardment.

Ejecta hitting water would of course create circles, but would that sight be special/spectacular/impressive enough for people to want to depict that effect on stone, over and over again?

The Egyptians and Sumerians created depictions of beings with animal parts. What would, then, be so special about someone creating some rather plain looking designs?

Come on people, wake up.

This is not dreamland, this is the real thing.

Use your fcking brains.

In all fairness, Abramelin, I think this is rather uncalled for. No one is obligated to find your thread interesting, nor to post in it. Several of us have had threads that petered out rather quickly due to lack of interest, for whatever reason. It happens, get over it. At best, you're going to p*** off more people who will not take the time to post. At worst, you'll p*** off the MODS who will either shut it, or you, down. The last time you had a spastic attack, a few of us put in a word or two which possibly kept it from disappearing altogether. It's an interesting thread. In the least, I think you owe us by keeping things civil. If not, then I'll quit this thread altogether. Your choice.

cormac

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A counter question would be, why would the spiral shapes have to be seen from thousands of miles away? Much like different forms of pottery or flint knapping, the designs could just as well have been copied from place to place. AFAIK, there is no definitive evidence that such designs originated in any one specific place. Some versions could have been seen and copied from the Iceland volcano, others from the (nearly) contemporary Duppacher Weiher eruption. There is nothing to suggest it has to be an either/or proposition.

Not really, the pictures at these links wouldn't necessarily have to be seen from overhead:

Link 1

Link 2

Picture in frame here:

Link 3

I couldn't find any pictures of volcanic bombs in flight, either, with is understandable. That's the last place anyone in their right mind would want to be, in the middle of a volcanic bombardment.

The Egyptians and Sumerians created depictions of beings with animal parts. What would, then, be so special about someone creating some rather plain looking designs?

In all fairness, Abramelin, I think this is rather uncalled for. No one is obligated to find your thread interesting, nor to post in it. Several of us have had threads that petered out rather quickly due to lack of interest, for whatever reason. It happens, get over it. At best, you're going to p*** off more people who will not take the time to post. At worst, you'll p*** off the MODS who will either shut it, or you, down. The last time you had a spastic attack, a few of us put in a word or two which possibly kept it from disappearing altogether. It's an interesting thread. In the least, I think you owe us by keeping things civil. If not, then I'll quit this thread altogether. Your choice.

cormac

You are suggesting that, first, a spiral shaped cloud (or one made up from several concentric circular clouds) formed on 2 volcanos around the same time?? I have never seen even one, not one single photo on the entire internet, though you claim they can form. Show me one example, please. The ones you posted the links to (and of which only one actually produced a photo) do not look at all like what we are talking about here.

Second, for what reason were the ancient ancestors of the Scots the ones who carved these spirals all over their country? Because they had telescope eyes and could watch both the Icelandic and German volcanos from afar? Were there volcano missionaries, and the Scots were there most fanatic converts?? Come on.

Third, my spastic attacks kept this thread going for 28 pages. It's good to be spastic, and I think I can keep it going on for many more pages, entirely on my own. But any input from others would be welcome. There are lots of people posting here who have lots more imagination, and even real knowledge, than I will ever have, so I sometimes challenge them.

There are threads here going on for 150 pages, and most of the posts are based on people not interested on reading the previous pages, or to stubborn to accept what was explained a thousand times before. That is why I sometimes post something resembling a summary, so that even the laziest amongst us can know what is going on. Not that it helps much, true...

And are you really afraid I will p*** of the MODs? What for? Because I challenge people to use their imagination in a constructive way instead of using it to dream of aliens and werewolves??

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You are suggesting that, first, a spiral shaped cloud (or one made up from several concentric circular clouds) formed on 2 volcanos around the same time??

No, which is why I said the following, although I should have amended it to include both spiral shapes and concentric circles.

Some versions could have been seen and copied from the Iceland volcano, others from the (nearly) contemporary Duppacher Weiher eruption. There is nothing to suggest it has to be an either/or proposition.
The ones you posted the links to (and of which only one actually produced a photo) do not look at all like what we are talking about here.

Actually, the middle one didn’t work for me. Don’t know why, but it was the worst example anyway and not worth bothering with. The one in the frame was the best example and could have been interpreted as concentric circles, which was what I was trying to show.

Second, for what reason were the ancient ancestors of the Scots the ones who carved these spirals all over their country? Because they had telescope eyes and could watch both the Icelandic and German volcanos from afar?

Again, it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. And what evidence do you have that the ancestors of today’s Scots were responsible for these depictions? How do you know that someone else didn’t do it and pass it down to the Scots? Particularly as Irish legend, IIRC, would have the today’s Scots originating from Eochaid Allmuir (c.240 AD) and other immigrants, who had left their homeland when a bid for independence was severely crushed by their High-King.

Also, Doggerland wasn’t the only area above sea level prior to 6100 BC. Northern, Western and Southern areas around England and Ireland were as well. Possibly even a bigger portion of the Faroe Islands and intermittent areas southwest from there.

Third, my spastic attacks kept this thread going for 28 pages. It's good to be spastic, and I think I can keep it going on for many more pages, entirely on my own. But any input from others would be welcome. There are lots of people posting here who have lots more imagination, and even real knowledge, than I will ever have, so I sometimes challenge them.

So you’d rather talk to yourself and insult people for not being interested enough to post in your thread. You’re not encouraging anything. But that’s OK, I’m done here.

cormac

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Posted (edited)

No, which is why I said the following, although I should have amended it to include both spiral shapes and concentric circles.

Actually, the middle one didn't work for me. Don't know why, but it was the worst example anyway and not worth bothering with. The one in the frame was the best example and could have been interpreted as concentric circles, which was what I was trying to show.

Again, it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. And what evidence do you have that the ancestors of today's Scots were responsible for these depictions? How do you know that someone else didn't do it and pass it down to the Scots? Particularly as Irish legend, IIRC, would have the today's Scots originating from Eochaid Allmuir (c.240 AD) and other immigrants, who had left their homeland when a bid for independence was severely crushed by their High-King.

Also, Doggerland wasn't the only area above sea level prior to 6100 BC. Northern, Western and Southern areas around England and Ireland were as well. Possibly even a bigger portion of the Faroe Islands and intermittent areas southwest from there.

So you'd rather talk to yourself and insult people for not being interested enough to post in your thread. You're not encouraging anything. But that's OK, I'm done here.

cormac

Well, for what it's worth, I was interested in those volcanic clouds, so I really love to see a photo of that.

And no, I have no evidence that the people living back then were the ancestors of the present-day Scots, but it wouldn't be much of a surprize to me if some mixing of genes took place. I just said 'Scots' as a name for the people living in what is now called Scotland. But ok, I was a bit too quick with my answer to you.

Still, I think it is kind of intriguing that most of these cup-and-circle marks can be found in Scotland, as though they were closest to whatever happened that made them carve these pictures onto stone.

Oh yeah, I do know Doggerland wasn't the only now submerged area above sea level; in a former post I talked about submerged megalithic looking structures found there, some kind of structure looking like a large stone table. According to me the people living on what was Doggerland were not separated in culture from the culture on the British Isles and Ireland or other nearby areas, and that is why I talk about finds in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Germany, Denmark and Scandinavia.

About the 'insult': is it an insult when you ask people to use their 'fcking brains'? I wasn't thinking of you when I said that, btw; you are obviously using your brains.

The reason I sometimes flare up is that I cannot understand that people interested in an unknown past - and we have many here - are not interested to take part in the discussion. Some admit that they don't know about anything concerning Doggerland, but are interested in what comes up here, and that's ok with me. But my idea is that most others do not participate because Doggerland appears not to be the place to look for when you believe is some ancient super-civilization, "Atlantis", and/or aliens. They have lots of imagination, but they seem unable to use that imagination in a useful way.

-

OK, so you are done here. Thanks for your contribution, Cormac.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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From http://www.timetravel-britain.com/articles/stones/rockart.shtml

"The transition between Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farming is a fascinating time, and one which we have only begun to study," says Tertia. "The Mesolithic people initially moved northward as the Ice Age glaciers receded. Recent finds demonstrate that they were more sophisticated than previously imagined." Although they did not farm, they built stone houses, with beaten earth or occasionally irregular flagstone floors, the oldest in Britain dating to 8000 BCE. Artifacts, such as flint arrowheads and spear points reveal craftsmanship beyond the level of utility and entering the realm of art. The shift from Meso- to Neolithic culture is considered to have begun approximately 5000 BCE. "Actually, the boundary between the Mesolithic and Neolithic is not well-defined," says Tertia. Evidence shows that the move to farming came earlier in the South and worked its way northward, but its impetus is not clear. Did the deer become over-hunted? Were natural food sources, fruits and the like, over-harvested? Did the successful Mesolithic lifestyle carry the seeds of its own destruction in the form of overpopulation, or did the farmers and herdsmen migrate from elsewhere, pushing the older culture back as they cut the forests for farmland and grazing? (Incredibly, sheep are not native to Britain.)

OK, so they came from elsewhere, but this "Tertia" doesn't take into account that people must have fled Doggerland if they were still able to.

Doggerland was a heavily wooded area, and what I think - like I said many times here - is that they started building using wood (lots of oak trees in Doggerland), but that they gradually shifted to using stone for their structures, knowing what happened to their wooden structures before.

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Posted (edited)

Seems they've done a documentary on Doggerland Abe. NOT that you're going to like the title no.gif

http://channel.natio...ew#tab-Overview

Hmmmm.... I few pages back "Alien Being" already announced this documentary, Qoais.

And some days later I posted a link to the entire documentary online.

Don't you remember there was a bit of a hassle here, about the merging of 2 threads, and then a new, and wrong title for the merged thread? You yourself posted something during that time, lol.

Anyway, I have now also seen it on National Geographic Channel here in Holland, and they made some interesting points in that documentary.

EDIT:

What I somehow didn't like was that the people living there were depicted as people living in dirt, mud on their faces, and walking around dressed in hides. But it's a British doc, so maybe they had on old episode of Monty Python about the middle ages during the plague in front of their mind's eye, lol !!

Even from far before the time of the Doggerlanders there are rock-art paintings in France of people dressed in clothes, NOT hides. People having all kinds of clothes and something looking a lot like shoes. And even in the documentary they show finds from the sea near Denmark of woven fabric.. the oldest ever found in Europe.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Sorry Abe, I didn't realize it was the same thing. I'm getting a tad "slow" in my flippin' "golden years" :wacko:

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