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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

No worries, lol, I often forget where I posted what (but that's caused by me posting during 'hightened awareness', LOL !!).

About those cave paintings in France...

We all know about the animals these ancient peoples carved into rock walls, and I will bet many people nowadays don't have the skill to piant or carve realistically like that.

Many still think that the people back then were nothing but primitive hunters living by the moment, hoping they could survive for another day.

But if they had the time to carve and paint like they did, they must have had a lot of free time on their hands.

Maybe they didn't build pyramids and stone houses, but it's my idea that these ancient people are being greatly underestimated.

Yeah, they may have had the most weird beliefs, superstitions, and all that, but are we now so much different? Just read the posts on other forums here.

About those paintings, I don't expect anything like that on the bottom of the North Sea because I don't think there were any rock caves there.

But just look at what the Haida Indians did in North America; they lived a lot like those Doggerlanders must have lived, but very recently.

Look at what art they created with wood; it's beautifull and impressive. And it proves mastery of their surroundings.

If anything, I expect something similar of the Doggerlanders.

And not just because the Haida were being mentioned in the documentary, I already assumed something similar earlier before that.

The Haida created totem poles; the ancient Germanic people created 'irminsuls'. OK, much later than the time of Doggerland, but even then...

Let's not forget that both these people live/lived in very wooded areas, both peoples used wood for lots of things. And it's kind of logical: wood was/is abundant, wood is easy to work with, and large trees (saquoia/ceder in Vancouver Island, oak in N/W Europe) are impressive trees.

Even the much later Celtic peoples had priests called 'druids', which is said to mean nothing more than 'oak priests'.

In Europe, but on many other places in the world too, they venerated the 'World Tree'.

All the henges, in Britain, Ireland, Wales and Germany, were first build using tree trunks. Later on they started using stone.

In short: socalled 'primitive' people gave the tree a special place in their beliefs.

Haida totem poles:

BN_Haida-Queen-Char-2.jpg

An irminsul:

Irminsul.jpg

--

EDIT:

Some might say: if these people, according to you, were more advanced than what is generally thought, then why did they use wood for much of their buildings and art? Wood is not a material that will last forever?

Well, I will say this: if we super-civilized people that we think we are, kill off eachother with nukes, what will happen? Not only will we die like flies, but all we think of as being proof of us being technologically advanced people will be lost. The EMP (electro-magnatic pulse from the nukes) will shut down anything working on electricity. No light, no tv, no washing machines, no engines, no internet, no trains, and so on, and so on.

And a flood (like the one caused by the Storegga Slide) washed away anything built from wood.

Their most impressive structures were very probably based on wood, and our most impressive structures were built with the use of electricity (yeah, even our sky-scrapers).

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

No worries, lol, I often forget where I posted what (but that's caused by me posting during 'hightened awareness', LOL !!).

About those cave paintings in France...

We all know about the animals these ancient peoples carved into rock walls, and I will bet many people nowadays don't have the skill to piant or carve realistically like that.

Many still think that the people back then were nothing but primitive hunters living by the moment, hoping they could survive for another day.

But if they had the time to carve and paint like they did, they must have had a lot of free time on their hands.

Maybe they didn't build pyramids and stone houses, but it's my idea that these ancient people are being greatly underestimated.

Yeah, they may have had the most weird beliefs, superstitions, and all that, but are we now so much different? Just read the posts on other forums here.

About those paintings, I don't expect anything like that on the bottom of the North Sea because I don't think there were any rock caves there.

But just look at what the Haida Indians did in North America; they lived a lot like those Doggerlanders must have lived, but very recently.

Look at what art they created with wood; it's beautifull and impressive. And it proves mastery of their surroundings.

If anything, I expect something similar of the Doggerlanders.

And not just because the Haida were being mentioned in the documentary, I already assumed something similar earlier before that.

The Haida created totem poles; the ancient Germanic people created 'irminsuls'. OK, much later than the time of Doggerland, but even then...

Let's not forget that both these people live/lived in very wooded areas, both peoples used wood for lots of things. And it's kind of logical: wood was/is abundant, wood is easy to work with, and large trees (saquoia/ceder in Vancouver Island, oak in N/W Europe) are impressive trees.

Even the much later Celtic peoples had priests called 'druids', which is said to mean nothing more than 'oak priests'.

In Europe, but on many other places in the world too, they venerated the 'World Tree'.

All the henges, in Britain, Ireland, Wales and Germany, were first build using tree trunks. Later on they started using stone.

In short: socalled 'primitive' people gave the tree a special place in their beliefs.

Haida totem poles:

BN_Haida-Queen-Char-2.jpg

An irminsul:

Irminsul.jpg

--

EDIT:

Some might say: if these people, according to you, were more advanced than what is generally thought, then why did they use wood for much of their buildings and art? Wood is not a material that will last forever?

Well, I will say this: if we super-civilized people that we think we are, kill off eachother with nukes, what will happen? Not only will we die like flies, but all we think of as being proof of us being technologically advanced people will be lost. The EMP (electro-magnatic pulse from the nukes) will shut down anything working on electricity. No light, no tv, no washing machines, no engines, no internet, no trains, and so on, and so on.

And a flood (like the one caused by the Storegga Slide) washed away anything built from wood.

Their most impressive structures were very probably based on wood, and our most impressive structures were built with the use of electricity (yeah, even our sky-scrapers).

This is nothing that suits the minds of those who love to believe in some ancient super civilization, I know about that.

But those who dream about ancient super-civilizations are most often the same people who don't know how to make a fire, how to mend their clothes, how to hunt for food ("we have MacDonalds, we should we??"), they would be LOST if anythimg happened to our electricity based civilization.

In short: I am not impressed by what the majority of our present population of humans is capable of doing.

We are dependent on a small number of people who really know how to handle catastrophs.

EDIT:

I see Cormac reading this thread, hmmmmm....

Why would he, being done with this thread, being p***ed off as he told us he is??

Cormac, you are Irish, I am Dutch.

When I am drunk, I say things I don't really mean.

You are fcking Irish, you of all people (ok, maybe also MatthShark) should know about the effect of whiskey, or alcohol in general??

Come on, don't be p***ed off that easily. Post what you wanted to post, but dont be put off by my attitude, OK?? I am Dutch, you are Irish. I am supposed to be a pot-head, you are supposed to be a whiskey addict.

Come on, have balls, ok??

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I see no reason why the consciousness of man would vary between climate. So, the age we're talking mankind is pretty well developed. Brain capacity isn't gonna grow much. It was pre agriculture but a fertile land would produce an abundance of wild foods. Animal husbandry suits a nomadic lifestyle, which would seem a suitable way of life for the Doggers. Maybe comparable to the shamans of Lapland and Siberia. You're right it is exciting to think of things without super civilizations or aliens from time to time :P We really have no idea what levels of culture a pre catastrophe culture could have reached and as you mentioned, would degrades quickly. Perhaps the survivors passed down the memories of the 'Great Wave' and the descendants built Stonehenge and the other megalithic sites as a marker to prove high civilization before a flood. By high I mean a cooperative shamanic culture that evoled naturall without interference.

I was trying to suss the climate in the area pre neolithic and came up with this link. It speaks about the culture in Finland a lot, no Doggerland though. I thought it interesting anyway but I was surpirsed to read that quartz was an abundant material. Means nothing but shamans could have used it for some reason like healing or trinkets. How does crystal degrade under water I wonder?

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ZbF9lweGv9IJ:www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/Mesolithic/mmpdf/19.2.pdf+climate+of+europe+in+pre+neolithic%2Bstorega%2Bdoggerland&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh77tX1QKSPoODDPxnzO6_HqRGANlmM0-8kVviUl5pPiBxJd9dQ5w7HfuPIUonccviqOFAjxsm_yY3aPtTluRaLg6iUi2RiZS1HMygAF32t5a6oAtYxlFM4nxBvKI8y2YdJ2qG6&sig=AHIEtbSqwBvdg922Lb0G1A8lFfRW4JttQQ

Edited by SlimJim22

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Posted (edited)

cormac mac airt, on 02 May 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:

Also, Doggerland wasn't the only area above sea level prior to 6100 BC. Northern, Western and Southern areas around England and Ireland were as well. Possibly even a bigger portion of the Faroe Islands and intermittent areas southwest from there.

. . . ^ This bit from cormac's post is fascinating! The image [below] shows [in lighter blue] one contiguous continental shelf connecting Ireland ,England, and the Doggerlands, to the rest of western Europe.

It just struck me as cool that all of that was occupied prior to 6100 BC .

.. And.. that there were possibly more exposed Islands along the MID Atlantic Ridge to aid any possible trans Atlantic voyagers.... from either direction?

post-86645-127301953407_thumb.jpg *click to enlarge

Edited by lightly

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Posted (edited)

cormac mac airt, on 02 May 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:

Also, Doggerland wasn't the only area above sea level prior to 6100 BC. Northern, Western and Southern areas around England and Ireland were as well. Possibly even a bigger portion of the Faroe Islands and intermittent areas southwest from there.

. . . ^ This bit from cormac's post is fascinating! The image [below] shows [in lighter blue] one contiguous continental shelf connecting Ireland ,England, and the Doggerlands, to the rest of western Europe.

It just struck me as cool that all of that was occupied prior to 6100 BC .

.. And.. that there were possibly more exposed Islands along the MID Atlantic Ridge to aid any possible trans Atlantic voyagers.... from either direction?

post-86645-127301953407_thumb.jpg *click to enlarge

I know about those other submerged areas, and the original title of this thread was 'doggerland, and other lost countries' or something.

The largest area of land that got submerged was Sundaland.

Check it. I already asked Br. Cornelius to start a thread about that.

I am talking about Doggerland, ok?

Little Soles Bank on the edge of the Celtic Shelf, google it, a Russian created a whole story about it being Atlantis City.

Now try to research it; it will be a little bit difficult because after the Channel opened, whatever was there, it got flushed into the deep of the Atlantic.

Good luck.

Edited by Abramelin

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For some reason, I though this thread was in reference to this story...

http://news.bbc.co.u...ire/8660449.stm

Whoops blush.gif

Yeah, you thought......

That's a rare thing around here.

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Yeah, you thought......

That's a rare thing around here.

Well, I didn't think anything of relevance or consequence, so it's probably not worth noting...

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Posted (edited)

A week ago I stumbled upon a petroglyph that sort of amazed me, in connection with the Doggerland/comet/circular pattern thing I have been blabbering about for a few pages.

I found it by accident, and someone on some forum commented about it, saying: "That looks like Brittain and the North Sea, but what is that circular thing in the middle??"

But when I was on that site, someone banged on my front door, I opened the door, and let my visitor in.

Was a bit of a desprate person, so I closed my computer a bit drastically, and lost what I had found.

Next day I tried to retrieve that same petroglyph, but whatever I tried, I couldn't find it again.

Well, this is what I remember it looked like:

Petroglyph-circles-zigzag.jpg

If any of you knows about this petroglyph, please post about it here.

I have tried everything, but somehow I am unable to find it again.

EDIT:

I'd like to add that the image above is what *I* remember of it, and no doubt it is 'colored' by what I wish to remember....

I am quite sure about the left and central part of the image, but not at all sure about the right part. Now that I'm thinking again about it, it may have had some sort of zig-zag line at the right also, and thus different from what I drawed at the right.

I hope you all can understand how frustrating this is: it's like winning the lottery and not being able to collect the money because you lost your ticket.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Hi Abramelin, did a search and stumbled upon this site on concentric circle petroglyphs .. Look at this one , from Spain ! no zigzags beside.. but the same circles with line to center. http://www.paim.net/circles/

post-86645-127334430298_thumb.jpg *click to enlarge

*

Edited by lightly

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Hi Abramelin, did a search and stumbled upon this site on concentric circle petroglyphs .. Look at this one , from Spain ! no zigzags beside.. but the same circles with line to center. http://www.paim.net/circles/

post-86645-127334430298_thumb.jpg *click to enlarge

*

Thanks Lightly, it just shows that these circular patterns can be found all over the world.

But Scotland has by far the most, and I want to know why.

Were they closest to whatever inspired them to carve that pattern into rock?

Was it something seen in the heavens??

Or was it just drug-induced? But even then, why is Scotland flooded with these patterns? Or the British Isles and Ireland in general?

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Lightly, it just shows that these circular patterns can be found all over the world.

But Scotland has by far the most, and I want to know why.

Were they closest to whatever inspired them to carve that pattern into rock?

Was it something seen in the heavens??

Or was it just drug-induced? But even then, why is Scotland flooded with these patterns? Or the British Isles and Ireland in general?

good questions!.. i dunno... but yes, concentric circle and spiral patterns are found all over the world in petroglyphs and arts and crafts. i mentioned spiral galaxies once.. but you said they didn't have the Hubble telescope. True. . but don't you find that ancient peoples have this peculiar habit of seeming to know things that they ,according to us at this time, Shouldn't !? I was just reading that in the American southwest.. some peoples used spiral petroglyphs as solar calendars.. to track the annual motions of the sun.... by directing sumbeams on them in different ways.

* And remember the spirals at NewGrange?? and the shaft of sunlight that penetrates the interior at solstice?

Edited by lightly

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good questions!.. i dunno... but yes, concentric circle and spiral patterns are found all over the world in petroglyphs and arts and crafts. i mentioned spiral galaxies once.. but you said they didn't have the Hubble telescope. True. . but don't you find that ancient peoples have this peculiar habit of seeming to know things that they ,according to us at this time, Shouldn't !? I was just reading that in the American southwest.. some peoples used spiral petroglyphs as solar calendars.. to track the annual motions of the sun.... by directing sumbeams on them in different ways.

* And remember the spirals at NewGrange?? and the shaft of sunlight that penetrates the interior at solstice?

Nobody can see spiral galaxies with their naked eyes, Lightly.

So skip that idea, please.

And spiral petroglyphs as solar calenders is nothing but the present hype. In a next decade something else, some other explanation will be hype.

My idea is that these ancient peoples depicted some weird looking celestial event, a comet emitting spirals, a comet that eventually impacted into the North Sea, a comet seen by people all over the earth, a scary sight at night, and MAYBE the cause of the Storegga Slide, and thus the destruction of (the remnants of) Doggerland.

.

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Nobody can see spiral galaxies with their naked eyes, Lightly.

So skip that idea, please.

And spiral petroglyphs as solar calenders is nothing but the present hype. In a next decade something else, some other explanation will be hype.

My idea is that these ancient peoples depicted some weird looking celestial event, a comet emitting spirals, a comet that eventually impacted into the North Sea, a comet seen by people all over the earth, a scary sight at night, and MAYBE the cause of the Storegga Slide, and thus the destruction of (the remnants of) Doggerland.

.

Apparently, it's not some sort of hype... the website explains how the construct functions as a solar calendar.

http://www.solsticeproject.org/science.htm

A Unique Solar Marking Construct

Summary:

An assembly of stone slabs on an isolated butte in New Mexico collimates sunlight onto spiral petroglyphs carved on a cliff face. The light illuminates the spirals in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. The assembly can also be used to observe lunar phenomena. It is unique in archeoastronomy in utilizing the changing height of the midday sun throughout the year rather than its rising and setting points. The construct appears to be the result of deliberate work of the Anasazi Indians, the builders of the great pueblos in the area.

Near the top of an isolated butte in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, three large stone slabs collimate sunlight in vertical patterns of light on two spiral petroglyphs carved on the cliff behind them. The light illuminates the spirals each day near noon in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral. At equinox and winter solstice corresponding forms of light mark the spirals. We found that the relationship between the shape and orientation of the slabs and the resultant light patterns on the cliff is a complex one and required a sophisticated appreciation of astronomy and geometry for its realization. The site is unique in employing the varying height of the midday sun during the year to provide readings of solar declination. In this respect it is clearly different in concept from the many archeoastronomical sites throughout the ancient New and Old Worlds that tell the passage of the year by marking the rising and setting points of the sun and moon .

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Posted (edited)

Apparently, it's not some sort of hype... the website explains how the construct functions as a solar calendar.

http://www.solsticep...org/science.htm

A Unique Solar Marking Construct

Summary:

An assembly of stone slabs on an isolated butte in New Mexico collimates sunlight onto spiral petroglyphs carved on a cliff face. The light illuminates the spirals in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. The assembly can also be used to observe lunar phenomena. It is unique in archeoastronomy in utilizing the changing height of the midday sun throughout the year rather than its rising and setting points. The construct appears to be the result of deliberate work of the Anasazi Indians, the builders of the great pueblos in the area.

Near the top of an isolated butte in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, three large stone slabs collimate sunlight in vertical patterns of light on two spiral petroglyphs carved on the cliff behind them. The light illuminates the spirals each day near noon in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral. At equinox and winter solstice corresponding forms of light mark the spirals. We found that the relationship between the shape and orientation of the slabs and the resultant light patterns on the cliff is a complex one and required a sophisticated appreciation of astronomy and geometry for its realization. The site is unique in employing the varying height of the midday sun during the year to provide readings of solar declination. In this respect it is clearly different in concept from the many archeoastronomical sites throughout the ancient New and Old Worlds that tell the passage of the year by marking the rising and setting points of the sun and moon .

It is a hype: as soon as an archeoloigist - nowadays - encounters a circle of standing stones or something else, ancient and circular, s/he immediately assumes it must be something to do with a star calendar.

And if you want to see proof of what you think it is, you will no doubt find proof corroborating your assumptions.

Just put up a large circle of standing stones, and you will have an alignment with some stars.

It always works.

In a next decade they will have another convincing theory about what those standing stones 'stand' for.

Edited by Abramelin

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Abramelin.. i found many examples of Solar ( and Lunar) tracking Spiral Petroglyphs .. they work... . . hype or no hype. :)

From the summary..( of the website i posted above) : At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral.

Here are two more examples of Spiral Petroglyphs which Accurately mark Solar events.

http://www.astro.umass.edu/~young/moonteaching.html

CHACO CANYON, NEW MEXICO is a 1,000 year old solar and lunar calendar, located high (400') atop Fajada Butte, inaccessible except by ropes. This site was discovered in 1977 by Anna Sofaer. At noon on the solstices and equinoxes, a dagger of light (called the 'Sun Dagger') pierces a spiral petroglyph carved into the rock face of the cliff. The same spiral petroglyph has been shown to also mark the major and minor standstills of the Moon. The Sun Dagger is accepted by archaeoastronomers worldwide as the best example of a culture keeping track of the Sun and also the 18.6 year cycle of the Moon.

http://www.innvista.com/culture/travel/puerco.htm

Overlooking the Puerco River, the pueblo was occupied 600 to 800 years ago by Ancestral Puebloan People. Features include partially stabilized walls of several room types and a number of petroglyph panels. One of the latter appears to have been a solar calendar. The sun follows different paths throughout the year. This petroglyph marks the summer solstice. During the morning, a shaft of sunlight travels down the side to penetrate the centre of a small spiral.

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Abramelin.. i found many examples of Solar ( and Lunar) tracking Spiral Petroglyphs .. they work... . . hype or no hype. original.gif

From the summary..( of the website i posted above) : At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral.

Here are two more examples of Spiral Petroglyphs which Accurately mark Solar events.

http://www.astro.uma...onteaching.html

CHACO CANYON, NEW MEXICO is a 1,000 year old solar and lunar calendar, located high (400') atop Fajada Butte, inaccessible except by ropes. This site was discovered in 1977 by Anna Sofaer. At noon on the solstices and equinoxes, a dagger of light (called the 'Sun Dagger') pierces a spiral petroglyph carved into the rock face of the cliff. The same spiral petroglyph has been shown to also mark the major and minor standstills of the Moon. The Sun Dagger is accepted by archaeoastronomers worldwide as the best example of a culture keeping track of the Sun and also the 18.6 year cycle of the Moon.

http://www.innvista....avel/puerco.htm

Overlooking the Puerco River, the pueblo was occupied 600 to 800 years ago by Ancestral Puebloan People. Features include partially stabilized walls of several room types and a number of petroglyph panels. One of the latter appears to have been a solar calendar. The sun follows different paths throughout the year. This petroglyph marks the summer solstice. During the morning, a shaft of sunlight travels down the side to penetrate the centre of a small spiral.

sun_dagger.jpg

http://www.jqjacobs.net/southwest/chaco.html

Hi Lightly, yes, I know about Chaco Canyon.

But I am not saying no solar calendars were ever created, or that it is impossible or something.

If you look at those stones on the Btritish Isles and Ireland, they are many times literally covered with petroglyphs depicting spirals and concentric circles and 'cups'. And the 'tails' that go from center to outer ring of those petroglyphs are often not straight lines.

If they are indeed solar calendars, why are there so many on the same stone? Why do they often touch and even overlap eachother?

I am not saying my comet thing is a better explanation, just another explanation, but the explanation based on some halucinogenic/shamanic experience could be equally true.

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Posted (edited)

An example of Northumberland, UK:

northumberland3.jpg?t=1260432493

Would carvings in rock like these two help people determine what day it is?

And why two very similar petroglyphs almost joined together?

It must not have been a quick and easy job to carve this into rock, so I think they did it intentionally.

And I like to repeat: these carvings look a lot similar to the much later labyrinths we can also find all over the world (and not just in Crete as many seem to think; there are older ones in other places of the world)

Labyrinths - according to traditions that surround them - always have to do with life and death (the center always representing death or rebirth or the 'other world').

According to these ancient traditions you have to walk the spiralling path of the labyrinth (the course of your life, with turns left and right), and finally end up in the center, the moment and place you will 'die').

The Greeks/Cretans put a bull-horned dude in the center, the Minotaurus, something you had to conquer or die.

Just as a reminder: I like to think that many millenia ago a comet emitting spirals of gas/dust appeared in the heavens for months on end, and clearly visible -and HUGE- in the night sky all over the world. Eventually it (its CENTER, the comet itself) hit a place somewhere west of Norway, causing the Storegga Slide that destroyed Doggerland. The people living in Scotland where the survivors living closest to whatever plunged into the North Sea, incorporated this event into their myths, and depicted it all over the place. It must have scared them s***less, and no doubt it influenced their religion (shamanic).

No proof, nada, just something I like to imagine happened a long time ago.

Hale-Bopp, as seen through a telescope. But this is what I imagine people many millennia ago saw in the skies above them, and at a much closer distance from earth/ it was about to hit earth :

hale%20bopp%20spiral.gif

halebopp2_usno_big_web.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Hey Lightly, here's a site about your Anasazi.

Look at this picture, and the comment below it:

aaaaSTARGAZER_PETROGLYPH.jpg

Could these ancient petroglyphs represent what

astronomers know as sungrazing comets? Or are

they celestial symbols foretelling the demise

of a long-vanished people?

http://www.climbings...n_the_Edge.html

EDIT:

Yeah, I know what many here are now thinking: these Anasazi lived long after the Doggerlanders were gone.

But just look at how they depicted what might have been comets.

Well, I feel sort of lucky; I am not the only idiot...

EDIT:

A petroglyph found in Scotland, one of many thousands:

cupring1.gif

.

If these are solar calendars... I give up.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Abramelin, Great stuff.. .. ( i'm not saying every spiral petroglyph is part of a solar calendar of some sort... just that some obviously are, because they accurately Function as such.) The cup and ring markings you show are very interesting. (depictions of 'heavenly' bodies ?.. and more?) Did you see the show airing on the National Geographic Channel ( "Stone Age Atlantis" ) ??? sort of an unfortunate ,but catchy!, title... for what is a very interesting program. It talks mainly about the Doggerlands... and the fact that the people living at that time throughout the Entire Area were more 'sophisticated' and settled (especially on the coasts) than earlier assumed. The waters covering the Doggerlands are silty and deep and active enough to make exploration difficult... But by using seismic records gathered by Oil Exploration Companies Ancient villages and middens (dumps) can be detected. Also... they looked in the Black Sea (further East) ,which was also land very gradually swallowed by the sea during the same time period as the Doggerlands, where the waters are shallower and clearer and found many many artifacts from the same time periods Including wooden objects and even some textiles preserved by the Cold waters ..and mud.*

They also talked a little about the Storegga slide (HUGE underwater land slide near Norway ,for those who might not know) and the tsunamis caused by it.

Anyway... yes, all of the spiral and concentric and channeled and tailed petroglyphs are very interesting and obviously depict things of great importance to the peoples who carved them.

One other personal thought... how do they manage to be all over the world from times when there was assumed to be no contact between those parts of the world?? I keep hearing that people can't develop complex ideas in isolation... but at the same time i keep hearing that when people DO.. it's explained away as a case of parallel development or convergence. ..." because people being people tend to develop the same ideas independently blah blah blah"

Edited by lightly

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Abramelin, Great stuff.. .. ( i'm not saying every spiral petroglyph is part of a solar calendar of some sort... just that some obviously are, because they accurately Function as such.) The cup and ring markings you show are very interesting. (depictions of 'heavenly' bodies ?.. and more?) Did you see the show airing on the National Geographic Channel ( "Stone Age Atlantis" ) ??? sort of an unfortunate ,but catchy!, title... for what is a very interesting program. It talks mainly about the Doggerlands... and the fact that the people living at that time throughout the Entire Area were more 'sophisticated' and settled (especially on the coasts) than earlier assumed. The waters covering the Doggerlands are silty and deep and active enough to make exploration difficult... But by using seismic records gathered by Oil Exploration Companies Ancient villages and middens (dumps) can be detected. Also... they looked in the Black Sea (further East) ,which was also land very gradually swallowed by the sea during the same time period as the Doggerlands, where the waters are shallower and clearer and found many many artifacts from the same time periods Including wooden objects and even some textiles preserved by the Cold waters ..and mud.*

They also talked a little about the Storegga slide (HUGE underwater land slide near Norway ,for those who might not know) and the tsunamis caused by it.

Anyway... yes, all of the spiral and concentric and channeled and tailed petroglyphs are very interesting and obviously depict things of great importance to the peoples who carved them.

One other personal thought... how do they manage to be all over the world from times when there was assumed to be no contact between those parts of the world?? I keep hearing that people can't develop complex ideas in isolation... but at the same time i keep hearing that when people DO.. it's explained away as a case of parallel development or convergence. ..." because people being people tend to develop the same ideas independently blah blah blah"

I know about that documentary, Lightly, "Alien Being" mentioned it first here, and I later posted a link to the full doc online.

Heh, and the Storegga Slide, I think I have mentioned it so many times, people got bored of it, lol.

-

Why do they depict the same symbol all over the world? Maybe it's because they saw the same thing all over the world, in the sky above them?

And the circular labyrinth can also be found all over the world; and it's not something you come up with on a sunny Sunday afternoon.

You can find it on the Nazca plateau, the Hopi had one, you will find them in the Brittish Isles, Scandinavia, Sardinia, Greece, Crete, and as far as I know, you can find them in Australia too.

Either people sailed the seas wide and far and much earlier than we now accept as proven fact...or...that labyrinth represents what they all saw in the skies above them.

If anyone has a better idea, I sure like to hear about it.

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hmmmmmm. :yes:

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Posted (edited)

Maybe the spread around the globe of the circular labyrinth pattern needs it's own thread.

Here are some pics:

Nazca:

424px-Nazca_Lines_Labyrinth_Peru.jpg

Hopi:

Man_in_Maze.gif

Knossos:

Minotaurus.gif

Sardinia:

wp4335879a_1b.jpg

England:

maze-labyrinth.jpg

Finland:

wp576576a9.png

How to construct a labyrinth pattern:

create_chartres_labyrinth_v2_repeat.gif

Or...

petaloid_lrg_anim.gif

Or....

Seed._Ani.gif

And people have constructed this all over the world.

Think about that one.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I will trow out the bait.........

The Doggerlanders fled to nearby countries after the remnants of their homeland got flooded by the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide.

As I have said many times here, they were very probably seafarers, whalers, at home on the seas.

Maybe the Storegga Slide was caused by a spiralling comet that finally impacted west of Norway, and seen in the ancient skies for months on end, a huge spectacle in the heavens, and visible on much of the earth.

Either they fled far away, and spread their stories together with the image of the heavenly spectacle (don't forget: the spirals and concentric circles and labyrinths are found most numerous in the Brithish Isles, Ireland and Scandinavia).

Or...

Many peoples on earth saw the same thing in the skies above them, and depicted it on rock.

But the labyrinthal pattern is too complicated to just have appeared on many places on earth by coincidence.

My idea is that the labyrinthal pattern is based on how people viewed the spirals emiitting from the comet.

It may have turned and twisted for god knows what reason, and created these labyrinthal patterns in the skies; they are similar all over the world, but not exactly carbon copies of eachother.

Biut those that were most impressed by what they saw were those who lived close by the impact of the comet: the people living in what is now Scotland.

==

EDIT:

I know, many will say that the labyrinths I posted in my former post are from many different ages.

True, but people keep rebuilding, reconstructing, refreshing - whatever word you prefer to use - ancient sacred structures, patterns, buildings and so on.

ANOTHER EDIT:

For those who have the opinion that people millenia ago were not that great seafarers, think again: the ancestors of the Australian Aboriginals arrived in Australia around 40,000 BC (Mungo Man).

Either they swam for days on end being crazy, or they intentionally set out for land in the south - on rafts - that they knew was there because, smart as they were, they had seen land birds flying from south (their horizon) to north.

http://en.wikipedia....go_Lake_remains

As I have said many times all over this board, we socalled sophisticated and technological advanced people greatly underestimate the ancients.

Because we somehow have no balls anymore to do what they must have done frequently, we assume it was impossible for them to do what I just suggested they did.

It says more about how we are now than what we generally assume how they were back then.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

near_20000210_anim.gif

Now imagine this thing ejecting gas/dust and appoaching earth.

And it rotates on just one axis. Maybe what the ancients saw in the heavens rotated on 2 axisses, creating intricate spiral patterns in the heavens.

The Hale-Bopp comet, rotating on one axis only:

hale%20bopp%20spiral.gif

Edited by Abramelin

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